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Author Topic: How Hard Is It To Compete With "Disney" Parent?  (Read 717 times)
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« on: July 21, 2021, 11:24:49 PM »

I shared in another thread about a joint trip to the mall on my time where D9 (and I) got frustrated with Mommy over the simple task of getting her shoes. On the drive back home, her mom criticized me not helping and said that we should have driven separately because she wanted time for herself (to shop, and cope). Then she was surprises when she dropped us off that D9 was mad at her, but then got D to hug her goodbye. I didn't say anything, not wanting to take sides.

Last week, we took our dog for a walk. She's over 1, but still a puppy and we're trying to train her. The kids drive me nuts and often ignore or are oblivious about how to interact with our 74 lb puppydog. I got mad at them. We were trying to teach her to heel. 3 kids!

That night I apologized to them that I was too harsh and almost before I could finish they both said that it was OK and nothing, that Mommy got mad and yelled at them all of the time. It surprised me, but didn't.

A few days later, Mommy texted me about D9. She was hitting S11, her mom, and calling mom stupid. Mom grabbed her wrist. I think she told me that in case D9 told me (she didn't). Then again, my ex has this thing where she tells me things factually and logically that seem OK, but devoid of the emotions, as when she told me she punched her now exH. And when cops came...

She told me that she thought D9 needed therapy. I didn't say what I wanted to say, "it's interesting that everyone in a relationship with you ends up being sent to therapy." Me, her now ExH, the kids.  

D9 told her that she preferred it at my home, as I let them do whatever they wanted to, watching YouTube and Netflix. Admittedly, I do let them watch too much though I often drive them off to do laundry, clean their rooms, read or play outside. ASD1 S11 is a lot easier. D9 is definitely steadfast, but it's been many months that she's thrown a real tantrum here. I do get her to sweep. S11 mows the lawn. They both do their laundry though D9 doesn't like to fold.

Though we're not supposed to, I asked D11 if everything was OK.  "Yes." I asked her why she liked my home more. Yes, it was that I was more permissive about screen time, but she also liked me and our dog. I've started limiting screen time more, it got away from me with the lockdown. Yet I can't help but feel that I may be contributing to conflict by being seen as a "Disney Dad."

« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 08:38:18 PM by Turkish, Reason: Edited title » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2021, 05:38:44 AM »

I wonder if having a "favorite" parent isn't inevitable with a BPD parent. My parents stayed married but if not, I'd have begged to stay with my father. Maybe to a 9 year old, it feels more permissive but my BPD mother is extremely controlling. It's not that Dad would not have made me clean my room but that he'd not rage at me for leaving a toy out. Just because the kids are calmer and there's less conflict at your house doesn't mean you are too indulgent.

However, we can all use parenting tips and how to navigate the adolescent years. If you are wondering what to do differently maybe take a parenting class, but you being a consistent, loving dad and them feeling safe with you is a good thing.
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2021, 08:06:12 PM »


You are making reasonable changes.  A pwBPD would collect all the devices and deep 6 them.  You noticed it is out of hand (my house too...at least prior to the summer) and are changing it.

I'm going to institute book reading to "earn" screen time.  It's so easy for this to get away from parents.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2021, 08:18:55 PM »

D9 is the defiant one. Earning screen time is a good idea. She'll do the minimum and then remind me of my promise. They only got laptops due to remote schooling.

S11 is easier. He's reading this and it surprises me that he's so into it. https://www.amazon.com/Tonight-Die-Men-Battalion-Parachute/dp/184908436X

He'll read for an hour straight before bed.

I've been telling him that he can use his Aspie powers to become an expert in just about anything, so why not WW2?
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2021, 06:06:31 AM »


I have a couple "defiant ones".  Really gets under my skin.

My current "method" for the reminders is to have them take me on a "tour" of their chores so I can praise them of the good job or offer guidance if something needs improving. 

I'll try to chat with them about what they have done having an impact on everyone.  The goal is to get their head away from "what I get" and shift it over to "what I contribute".

Tall order for the defiant types.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 09:56:18 PM »

Now it's escalated. Mommy called me last night. She and D9 got into a big row after a good Friday. They got into a big fight over chores. D9 ended up screaming. She disrespected her mom and told her to get out of her room but her mom refused to leave until our daughter showed her more respect. D9 ended up scratching her mom hard enough to draw blood. Her mom was crying to me out of frustration, telling me that she dreaded weekends and didn't want to do it anymore. She was concerned that the neighbors heard D9 screaming. Again with the ADHD. No, that would exhibit in all of her relationships.

New babysitter for a couple of weeks. The baby sitter helped her clean her room. After I picked them up, D9 told me that she was the best babysitter ever and that she was a better person than mommy. I couldn't quite get it out of her what she meant (though I can guess).

I talked to D9 today to ask about it and told her that if mommy did what she did to mommy, it would be child abuse. D didn't seem to get it but stated that she didn't pinch "full power" like she could have  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

I asked her what she could do differently, like laying on the bed and asking for time alone, but she said mommy wouldn't leave.

Their mom called me today to say she was going to contact our HMO to get counseling. She's getting advice from a T at her work, but my ex isn't telling the whole story. Yet this is probably a good thing to do at this point.

My ex told me that D9 exaggerated about the "20 chores" she made her do but when they counted it was only 5. D9 also asked mommy to pray for her as she knew being so angry was wrong, or at least acting out.  My ex's co-worker wisely, I think, stated, "you're her patent and are trying to provide therapy. You need an impartial voice."

D9 told me today that I was a 10 out of 10 Daddy (I did have her fold her laundry when we got home) and that mommy was a 5 out of 10.
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2021, 10:42:02 PM »

Neighbors hearing screaming is not good. Also, reasonable neighbors can (hopefully) distinguish between children throwing a tantrum, and child abuse. It sounds different. She may be telling you "I'm afraid I crossed a line and the neighbors heard it".

Physically confronting a child enough to have either parent OR child draw blood is a huge red flag. It sounds like you have some good plans for therapy. I would just encourage you to step up your urgency and continue to take this seriously.

Does D9 have a T? You might let her talk to a therapist who can decide if this is escalating into a mandatory reporting situation. It's really hard to make that reporting decision on your own.

Hang in there - TFP
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2021, 11:19:48 PM »

Her T from the HMO who worked with us and D9 after her possible molestation by her teen uncle when D was 2 left the org. Too bad. We liked her. The records are there, but we'll be starting over again. 4 (?) Years ago is when my ex self-reported that she punched her now ex-H in front of the kids.  That's in the records. I'm not expecting a new T to be wise to an overall story, but I'm happy that my ex, as frustrated as she is, not to take her mother's advice "she needs the belt!" Right or wrong, it is much too late for that.

Here I would defend my ex. "Did that help your daughter not be very angry and ruin her relationships? Or not drive her younger sister to flee to another state for 5 years to reset her life away from her family?"

As much as my ex frustrates me, I do still have a form of love and compassion for her, and her FOO is clueless about the DV, Parentification, and emotional incest that hurt their daughters. 
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2021, 09:49:55 AM »

My wife still brings up "that child needs a good spanking" or that "the problem with schools today is they can't spank".

Up until BPD showed up in our marriage, I was actually pro spanking (never done in anger, "biblical"..etc etc) and even with what I know now...I think it worked for us and was "healthy".

Then..BPD showed up and accountability went away for discipline.  Prior to BPD showing up we would discuss first...spank later.  After BPD it turned into "punishment" rather than a way to "get a child's attention".

Then..once I started learning about influence of FOO and "family culture"...I realized there were episodes of violence in my wife's family.  Think her Mom and sister having fist fights over socks and Mom threatening to "show you"...shaking fist and all that.

Uggg

I got spanked as a child but it was always tied to some misdeed I did.  

We haven't spanked since 2014 sometime.  That was a big shift in my family...

Best,

FF
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2021, 11:12:18 AM »

I don't know how involved with BPD your ex is, but I will use my imagination and put myself in your D's shoes recalling the dynamics between me and my BPD mother at this age.

First, I was not the favorite child and there was a big difference between how my mother treated the golden child and me. I could see it. If I mentioned it, it was denied or written off as "sibling rivalry".

This was the beginning of my mother and I "trading places" in terms of growth and emotional regulation. My own skills were not so good at 9- no 9 year old has mature skills, but they were getting better than BPD mom's. 9 is the beginning of hormonal changes too. A 9 year old might get sassy or talk back, and it's the parent's job to stay calm. If I talked back to BPD mom it could result in a big reaction, dysregulation, and escalate. I knew though what was appropriate behavior and saw that my mother's behavior was different but I didn't know why.

Chores are important but need to also have age appropriate expectations. In my mother's situation, it's impossible to meet her expectations, she finds something I did wrong even now. So doing chores with criticism is demoralizing and frustrating. Sometimes she even made fun of the way I did them. With my mother, the expectation is complete obedience. One must be docile and compliant. Don't ask questions. Just obey. There's also a lack of boundaries. A 9 year old girl is beginning to want privacy boundaries.

I am going to substitute frustration for disrespect. It is possible that your D told her mother to leave the room because she was frustrated by the dynamics between them. It's her mother who interpreted this as disrespect after all, she has to be the victim here. There's no consideration of the child's emotions or the events that led her to ask the mother to leave. In this situation, letting your D have some alone time to calm down may have been the response your D needed, but her mother, feeling disrespected, reacted back by showing her who the boss is and refused to leave. Rather than allowing emotions to calm down, this escalated the situation and pushed your D to scratch out of frustration and feeling unable to get her mother off her back. Respecting some boundaries is not spoiling a child. Your D was upset and asked to be alone. This is actually a good boundary and part of emotional regulation. If your D sensed that she needed time out from this and asked for it, I would have considered allowing this. The chores would still be there to do later.

My mother's tendency to interpret my boundaries as an attack on her is still a part of issues between us today. I absolutely agree with getting counseling for your D. Someone needs to hear her view of things and also support her own emotional growth. The goal of raising an adolescent is an intact and completely separate identity from the parent, not a docile, complacent, enmeshed doormat. To raise the former, one has to tolerate some push back from the child, stay calm, and focused on the main goal- chores must be done rather than see any variation from complete obedience as being completely wrong.




 


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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2021, 11:21:35 AM »

D9 told me today that I was a 10 out of 10 Daddy (I did have her fold her laundry when we got home) and that mommy was a 5 out of 10.

How did you respond? I wonder what she'd say if you asked your daughter why she felt the need to score and compare the two of you?

She may be telling you "I'm afraid I crossed a line and the neighbors heard it".


This is a good point.
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2021, 01:41:26 PM »

I know it's not a competition and it shouldn't be, but I preferred my father as parent. He was the more stable one. I was scared of my mother and her moods. It didn't mean I didn't care about her less- I really wanted to and I wanted her to care about me.

I don't think the 10/10 vs 5/10 is a ranking as much as an explanation of how it feels to be with each parent. I felt these things too as a child. Saying them to anyone resulted in being invalidated. "Of course your mother loves you" "You should not say these things about your dear mother" and from mother "our issues are your fault". and the conclusion: if mom was a 5/10 it was because I was not good enough and if only I were good enough my mother would act like 10/10 with me.

This began the thinking that somehow, if only I was "good enough" my mother would love me like a 10/10 mother. And since she was a 5/10 clearly, I was not good enough to be loved by her.

Now, as an adult, I have a different vocabulary for explaining the behavior of my BPD parent. For a child, I would be careful to not triangulate but also not to invalidate. Asking her to explain what she means is fine but be careful how you respond.
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2021, 02:05:37 PM »

What is the schedule with her mother?  Would shorter visits resolve some of the problems?
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2021, 02:38:38 PM »

Asking her to explain what she means is fine but be careful how you respond.

Agree completely, you don't want to invalidate or shame her for scoring the parents. The reason I might ask is to get more insight on how she's feeling and why. It might also be a way to guide her into a different type of conversation and helping her understand how she's feeling and why she's feeling. No doubt Turkish already does a great job of that.
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2021, 09:19:19 PM »

Notwendy, thanks, those insights are invaluable. I think you rightly described the situation. I need to read what you wrote a few times.

I'm not sure that her mom might be at the point to ask them to spend more time with me, but that might feel like failure on her part. She uses her mommy time to manage her depression and anxiety. We have joint time, 3-2-2-3. 3s are weekends.

What struck me is that D9 said that her new babysitter is a "Good person" (unlike Mommy).

D9 did cop a 'tude with me this morning when I asked her to brush her hair. "I don't care!" When I directed her to the bathroom, she angrily brushed her hair, had to hurt. She didn't do a good job, but I deemed it sufficient.

I asked D about the rating and she said, "because she's a half good mom half bad mom." At least she understands fractions... I might ask her more about this later, or maybe let her save it for the T (or whatever the T drags out of her organically).

Her mom called me just now to discuss the kids. She asked to spend time with D9 Friday in the evening, my weekend. Since she's taking next week off work to be with them, I suggested on her time, or she could even have an extra overnight just with her.
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2021, 07:08:36 AM »

What struck me is that D9 said that her new babysitter is a "Good person" (unlike Mommy).

What struck you about this?

D9 did cop a 'tude with me this morning when I asked her to brush her hair. "I don't care!" When I directed her to the bathroom, she angrily brushed her hair, had to hurt. She didn't do a good job, but I deemed it sufficient.

Lol I remember these days. You've got a spicy kid, Turkish. Channeling that will serve her well later, and as she learns to set boundaries with her mom. 

I asked D about the rating and she said, "because she's a half good mom half bad mom." 

I'm impressed at her insight that her mom is half good, and this made me sad, because it must make the bad side all the more painful.

I liked your response to your ex about more time. If she uses mommy time to care for her mental health, it sounds like she needs that time right now. And, sticking to a routine is a great way to keep a sense of normalcy for the kids.

You're doing so well, Turkish. You're a great dad. Keep at it.
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2021, 07:29:05 AM »

Welcome to the almost adolescent years. They are trying to establish their own identity- separate from the parents- but don't know who they are yet. They may "try on" different ideas. They may not know all who they are so they may start with "not mom" "not dad". I recall around this time - if I bought something for them to wear, they wouldn't wear it. But if their friend liked it, they would. Asking your D to brush her hair could result in opposition- "it's my hair".

Adolescents need boundaries but also autonomy. I think it's a matter of picking your battles with the focus on the big non negotiable things: school work, passing grades, chores, curfews. Then the autonomous things- well they might dye their hair purple and you hate it but it's their hair. They may get mouthy but you walk the line of what to intervene on and what to brush off as temporary hormonal crazies. You need to set limits and know that they will get mad at you when you do- and they need to learn to manage that. But you can't emotionally react to them mouthing off with a similar reaction.

A PD parent sees children as an extension of themselves and so this quest to be "not mom" or "not dad" feels threatening to a parent with poor boundaries who has problems seeing the child as a separate individual. The parent may be too controlling or, too permissive. They may not be able to keep their cool during these hormonal teen age storms.

As a teen, I was afraid to "go too far" with acting out- it was as if I knew by then my mother was not available to actually help if I did. I was also parentified by then, being enlisted to be her emotional caretaker when I had my own teen emotions to manage. Somehow she could behave however she wanted but I would have been disciplined if I acted like she did. She controlled me with fear mainly and her ability to influence my father to get angry at me. There wasn't any love or affection from her.

Your D will have feelings about her mother and they likely are based on a reason. I know mine were, yet, people invalidated them. "don't be silly, your mother loves you" so I grew up thinking it was OK for people to hurt my feelings, "so long as they love me".

Your D is developing her own sense of what is appropriate behavior. She can tell the difference between the sitter and her mother. Don't triangulate but be careful to not invalidate. Also don't empower her too much, she's still a child and should not be parentified.
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2021, 10:13:01 PM »

Quote from: Turkish
What struck me is that D9 said that her new babysitter is a "Good person" (unlike Mommy).

Quote from: pursuingJoy
link=topic=350086.msg13150357#msg13150357 date=1628078916
What struck you about this?

That she made a moral or value judgement about her own mother. She's one of my least favorite people, but I felt sad after our daughter said that. Why? It's her mother. Also, I felt like I should do something to "fix" it even though I know invalidating her Isn't right. I did suggest that mommy was her mom no matter what and asked how she could better deal with it. That might have been invalidating.

I will never say the things like you said Notwendy. Culturally, mothers are borderline worshipped (no pun intended) like the line from the movie The Crow, "mother is the name of God on the lips and hearts of all children." That's a lot of how my ex is struggling. To her credit, she realizes the Parentification and emotional incest.

As young as 7, her teacher commented to us, "the things she says sometimes. It's like she's a little adult!" When D was 7, she pulled the "it's my life, I can do what I want! You can't tell me what to do!" 7 going on 17. Now 9 with teen hormones on the horizon...

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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2021, 12:51:10 AM »

Extra overnight?  Any reason why you didn't negotiate a trade?
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2021, 08:31:50 PM »

Extra overnight?  Any reason why you didn't negotiate a trade?

I get what you're saying, but over the years, I've tended to get the kids here and there for extra time based upon her work.
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2021, 07:24:56 AM »

I did suggest that mommy was her mom no matter what and asked how she could better deal with it. That might have been invalidating.

Maybe the first part was. I agree that mothers are worshipped, especially in the South. It's all about sweet tea, Sunday morning church and mama in my neck of the woods.

I read somewhere that when your kids hate you, let them.

I like that you asked how she could deal with it. Your daughter has control over her own emotions and responses. Abuse strips people of power, but here, you're giving power back to your daughter. Maybe the balance is in accepting her anger and empowering her with action steps to influence the dynamic, BUT not make her feel responsible to manage her mom's behavior. That's a lot.

As young as 7, her teacher commented to us, "the things she says sometimes. It's like she's a little adult!"

the times I've heard this about my kids. My counselor challenged me on this recently, telling me, "They're just kids, with brains that haven't fully developed. Let them be kids." 
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2021, 11:27:51 PM »

The video call the the therapist was this morning. D9 refused to participate. "I don't want to talk to the therapist. It's stupid!" That's all I could get out of her though I did coax her to coming out of her room in my arms but she refused to face the camera.

I really wished the old T hadn't resigned as she saw our daughter several times and was aware of mommy punching her then husband in front of the kids (I still think if I had done that to a wife, it would have been reported). That should be in the record though.

It went OK between the 3 of us. Mommy admitted spanking both kids recently (I had not heard this story). S11 cried, and I commented that this wasn't surprising given his ASD1 sensitivity. Of course D9 didn't care.

After admitting that, and the T making sure she didn't leave a mark (reportable), my ex segued into accusing me of running the lord of the flies house, in so many words. She limits screen time more (true), and sugar, and said that Saturdays are hard as the kids "detox" with fruit (uh, any dietician will tell you to limit sugar from fruit also). I didn't say much as this was a new T with no context or relationship.

It just occurred to me in writing this that I should have said, "Then why don't I have the same issues here?"

My ex watched the kids all last week but we kept to the 3-2-2-3 (3s being Fridays through Monday mornings) in that I had them on my nights. This week, the kids requested that they stay with me the whole week, nights included. I told their mom that we would call her, and she liked that. Years ago, we let go the nightly calls and it seemed to work. The kids chose when to call the other parent.

Tonight I called because S11 thought he forgot his retainer. He wasn't excited about calling her but did. D9 told her, after her mom told her she missed her, "I don't miss you." Brutal.

I encouraged D9 to tell mommy about our school supply shopping day and prep. I'm taking them to their first days of school, and then it's my natural weekend. So they won't see their mom for a week. It's my inclination to "fix" things, so I'm thinking that lunch with Mommy this weekend would be OK. She invited me to a nice dinner the other night on her day/week and I went.

I talked to our daughter again tonight and encouraged her that meeting the T in person (a month from now) was in her best self interest in order to advocate for herself. D reluctantly agreed.

The time, limited by covid, is such that I will take her, and that's good.
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    “For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.” ― Rudyard Kipling
Notwendy
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2021, 05:07:44 AM »

Why do you feel you need to fix things by planning lunch with mommy?

While your daughter's "I don't miss you" was a rude response, perhaps she does want the time away from her mother.

It's a fine line to teach respectful behavior towards a parent and not invalidate the child's feelings. Our culture expects the mother-child relationship to be a positive one. Children are expected to "honor our parents". How do we do this when the parent is also inconsistent in their behavior with the child?

I think the mother saying "I miss you" is a sort of boundary violation. By saying "I miss you", her mom is putting her feelings out to the child, and it comes with the expectation that the child respond with "I miss you too" which for your child may feel dishonest.

While not being overtly abusive, these "feeling dumps" feel icky. Your daughter's reply may be how she pushes back on this. However, she does need to learn there are respectful ways of communicating with a parent that do not involve being untruthful. A possible response to mother saying "I miss you" might be "I'll see you soon mom".
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Relationship status: "Divorced"/abandoned by SO in Feb 2013; Mother with BPD, PTSD, Depression and Anxiety: RIP in 2021.
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2021, 10:24:17 PM »

Thanks for the thoughts Notwendy. I'll talk to our daughter about that. It didn't occur to me about the feelings dump. On the occasional call to me, I'll respond that I miss her too only if D9 says it first. To me, of course I miss them, but it's "mommy time."

I asked S11 tonight why he wanted to stay with me the whole week. He said it was because I had the dog.

They both start school tomorrow. We'll see if she calls tonight. Likely tomorrow to see how it went.

Thanks for the comment about lunch. Maybe I feel obligated since she invited me to dinner the other night on her last night.

We had a good time prepping for school, the 3 of us. I also attended the orientation meetings for the two schools, and the after school program meet. Their mom didn't.

Two years ago, she pooh-poohed me for being upset that she didn't help out to support me when I was 4.5 hours in line on the cement to secure free after school spots. It pissed me off. No thanks again this year. Just, "did they get in?"
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    “For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.” ― Rudyard Kipling
Notwendy
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« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2021, 05:09:39 AM »

I think it's a good idea to reciprocate the invitation to keep the relationship on good terms but if you are doing it to "fix" how your D9 responded to her mother, that would be different.

The "responsible for mother's feelings" is something I experienced and so I am sensitive to it. It's the context of " I miss you".  When you say it in response to your D, you are responding to her feelings. Likely you also use a reassuring tone and say something like "I'll see you next week". It's our job as parents to help our kids learn to manage their own feelings. Yes, she misses you, and you can validate that and say you miss her too---- but you role model how to handle this by knowing you will see each other soon.

When your D's mother brings "I miss you" into the conversation, this is her feeling and now the child is expected to respond in some way to soothe or reassure the parent or that somehow if the mother feels this, then she feels it too.  This can make the child feel uncomfortable. Your D has boundaries. Her response to the comment was honest. "That's your feeling mom but I don't feel that way". It may not have been the most tactful way to say it but she's 9.





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