If their audience is removed, will they still act out?

[Flossy]

Flossy in an earlier post you say

They are no longer admitted to public hospitals in Australia due to the futility of trying to treat them).


This is just not true!

What makes you say that it is not true?

In my previous experience as a Ward Receptionist in a mental health unit in Australia, this is the case for people who present to Emergency if officially long-term BPD diagnosis.

Eg: Once diagnosed and in the system previously.

I guess it could be a decision made by individual hospitals. I am happy to accept I could be wrong.  A little more detail in your response might have helped me understand if I am so.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Leaf56]

Ha! No, not at all. What it was was that I had written possibly 3-4 very long responses before I wrote that and kept deleting them because I couldn't find a way to be thorough enough without writing a book or revealing too much about my son to make him identifiable. I even tried fictionalizing the narrative and pertinent facts at one point, but that just wasn't working, so eventually I just gave up and wrote what I wrote, hoping that you'd know what I meant. We're like two unintelligible ships passing in the night! Anyway, as you Aussies like to say, no worries. (Also, all rambling thoughts always welcome!)

[Flossy]

Aah! The quest for perfection of clear meaning in the written word. It is almost unachievable without writing a book and maddening when we feel we have failed to find words that the reader can intuitively understand the meaning behind.

I get it. (tempted to put another exclamation point but recent googling of the over-use of exclamation points has made me a little paranoid of doing that as well). (smiles). x

[languid-mudflaps]

Im the mother of a 25 yr old daughter with bpd.  yes i feel they are crying out for your attention and if that cry comes in the form of cutting or putting their head through a window it is never the less a cry for help because can you imagine the emotional pain that would drive someone to do that? to make you listen and take notice? and maybe it doesn't matter who is there they just wanna be seen. but do i believe they would make a scene or hurt themselves without an audience?... yes i do. the pain is real whether there is anyone there to see it or not.

[Leaf56]

I'm sorry languid, but I am going to vociferously although also respectfully disagree. I'll point you to a post I made several pages back on this same thread for reference. I said this:

"On another thread I read that someone's teen daughter had hit her head on a plate-glass window and shattered it while being released from a hospital stay. I venture to guess that that would not have happened had there not been an audience. So that brings me to some personal ruminations as well as a defense against anyone who would say, "but you don't understand the inner pain that leads these kids to acting this way" because I most certainly do.

I began suicidal ideation at the age of 13. I didn't tell anyone, and I never acted out in any way. I was a model student and daughter. I was scrupulously respectful and polite toward my loving, supportive parents. I appreciated everything they did for me, and I didn't want to put a wrinkle into their lives with the idea that their very successful daughter wanted nothing more than to kill herself. I was highly independent in thought and action and longed to get out in the world and show it what I had. However, the suicidal depression was my constant companion. At 17, after several years of silently suffering the indescribable baseless pain, I told the adult leader of the church youth group I was a member of that I was suicidal. She respected my wishes and did not tell my parents but told me that I should tell them so I did. As expected, they weren't able to understand, and I tried to make the idea go away for them by telling them I was now fine. But I continued to feel that way after I left for college, living through tortuous existential pain for two more years, until it finally subsided soon after I entered a loving relationship with my first boyfriend at age 20. I spent the next 10 years trying to sort out the why of it, and I was worried about having children of my own in case this was a heritable affliction.

Armed with my knowledge, and certain, based on all I'd read about psychology, that my problem must've been somehow caused by the parenting I'd had (I now know that it absolutely wasn't), I vowed to be a completely present, attached mom, who would be understanding and open and talk about my kids' emotions whenever they needed to, but who would set firm limits and expect age-appropriate advancement toward self-sufficiency. My first-born ended up with BPD. So, *I* had much of the same inner life of a person BPD and never acted out. What's the difference? Why do they act out and I didn't? Is it that this version of BPD is really a combo of BPD and narcissistic PD, or, perish the thought, psychopathy?"

So, I say to you that yes, the pain is real whether there's anyone there to see it or not and to that I say, "So what?" That does NOT EVER entitle anyone to treat other people the way they do or to make these, YES, ridiculous and juvenile outward shows of inward pain. Nope, nope, and more nope. No matter how much pain a person is in, these years-long and lifelong shows are never acceptable—EVER!

[languid-mudflaps]

Hello,
I had read your post before and I’m sorry you went through that. I myself was a very anxious child but with good reason.

When she used to cut in her room by herself where was the audience?
Or tried to hang herself?
Overdosing.
The anorexia.

She doesn’t want an audience. She wants to be seen and to be valued and for whatever overwhelming emotional pain it is to go away We’ve probably all been there at some point.

Using the word audience makes me think it’s like it’s all about  drama and manipulation and a bit of a game so why bother take it seriously?

[languid-mudflaps]

I guess we all have our own experiences of the awful family destroying disorder.

I at no point have said that having BPD excuses injurious attacks nor  verbal attacks on others. Nor does having BPD excuse bad behaviour. Tbh. That took me quite a while to separate the two. But I’m getting it done.

The examples I used were things she did to herself.
No audience.

[Leaf56]

Hi, so I'm hoping that if you'd read that old post that perhaps you read the others where I speculate that the "audience" is ever-present in their mind even if they're not physically present. If you're interested I suppose you can go back and read those posts.

You say: "When she used to cut in her room by herself where was the audience? Or tried to hang herself? Overdosing. The anorexia."

I say: Yes, yes, yes, and yes, there WAS an audience each time.

You say: "She doesn’t want an audience."

I say: You are wrong.

You say: "She wants to be seen and to be valued and for whatever overwhelming emotional pain it is to go away."

I say: While that's true, she does not NEED to act out. She CHOOSES to act out.

You say: "We’ve probably all been there at some point."

I say: This is not true with the possible exception of the fact that we were all once toddlers.

You say: "Using the word 'audience' makes me think it’s like it’s all about  drama and manipulation and a bit of a game."

I say: It's not ALL about the drama and manipulation. The pain is real. The acting out, drama, and involving others is an unnecessary part of it.

You say: "So why bother to take it seriously?"

I say: Herein lies the rub and the power they exert. We only take it seriously out of fear. Once the fear is gone, we go back to expecting them to behave as they've been taught or begin to treat them with those expectations if they've been absent heretofore.

You say: "I at no point have said that having BPD excuses injurious attacks nor verbal attacks on others. Nor does having BPD excuse bad behaviour. Tbh. That took me quite a while to separate the two. But I’m getting it done."

I say: That's great progress, but you need to go a step further and see how it also does not excuse ANY acting out behavior of any kind ever, even if the excuse is unbearable pain.

You say: "The examples I used were things she did to herself. No audience."

I say: There's ALWAYS an audience in her mind and the fact that you know about those things proves it.

[Flossy]

You say: "The examples I used were things she did to herself. No audience."

I say: There's ALWAYS an audience in her mind and the fact that you know about those things proves it.

[/quote]

Exactly Leaf, there's ALWAYS an audience in their mind. Always. They do not do these things in a situation where nobody finds out. They have no private life events like a mature adult does.

As an aside to always having an audience, the BP cannot bear to feel alone. There must be a witness to their lives in some form or another.

A witness, an audience anyone will do at a pinch, but close family members, particularly mothers have the added desirability of a history of nurturing, understanding and tolerance. Therefore, the best audience of all for behaviours that are unnacceptable to most humans.

[Leaf56]

This made me think of the famous line that Warren Beatty says about Madonna in Truth or Dare: "She doesn't want to live off-camera, much less talk. There's nothing to say off-camera. Why would you say something if it's off-camera? What point is there existing?"

[languid-mudflaps]

I do kinda know what you mean- she will take an overdose alone... then call me to tell me about it. However, I do believe it is because she doesn't really want to die, but she is unable to cope with whatever overwhelming feeling she is experiencing at the time and this is a way of asking for help. her way of communicating that she is in pain. that's not acting out in my book.

She does exhibit some very bad behaviour at times, that's not bpd, but when she cuts, or overdoses or whatever it is this time, i do not believe it is acting out, it is a distress call to whoever is around at the time. designed to be noticed like a flare.

i may have misunderstood some of what has been said above but what you seem to see as deliberate bad behaviour, i see as someone in great pain asking for help in the way they have learned how to.

my daughter can be a complete arsehole and scary at times. but i understand that even when she is well, she always sees the world through the distorted lens of bpd. She doesn't know any different .that is not to say she doesn't know right from wrong and therefore if she choses to misbehave she faces the consequences like everyone else. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[languid-mudflaps]

one more thing.

i was oblivious for a long time about the anorexia.
she hid it well.
i was oblivious to the cutting for years.
I'm sure she wanted to be seen, but i didn't see what was happening until it was too late.
bad mum, probably.
and yeah when she showed herself, she wanted, not an audience, but to be seen and to be saved.

i cannot tell you how much the word audience makes me think back to all those people who called her an attention seeker as an insult and so ignored her.
or who said to her that suicide was selfish and made her feel worse than she did.

if someone has to cut themselves in order for you to take notice, then please take notice.
And if someone thinks dying is the only way out of the pain they feel, then please have some empathy and compassion and be kind.

[Leaf56]

You said: "I do kinda know what you mean- she will take an overdose alone... then call me to tell me about it. However, I do believe it is because she doesn't really want to die, but she is unable to cope with whatever overwhelming feeling she is experiencing at the time and this is a way of asking for help. her way of communicating that she is in pain. that's not acting out in my book."

It most definitely is acting out in my book.

You said: "She does exhibit some very bad behaviour at times, that's not bpd, but when she cuts, or overdoses or whatever it is this time, i do not believe it is acting out, it is a distress call to whoever is around at the time. designed to be noticed like a flare."

And you've just defined acting out.

You said: "i may have misunderstood some of what has been said above but what you seem to see as deliberate bad behaviour, i see as someone in great pain asking for help in the way they have learned how to."

All I'm saying is that they choose to behave this way. They don't have to. It doesn't matter if this is what they've learned, by the time they are adults, they know better. This is why they are perfectly capable of behaving well whenever they want to.

You said: "my daughter can be a complete arsehole and scary at times. but i understand that even when she is well, she always sees the world through the distorted lens of bpd. She doesn't know any different .that is not to say she doesn't know right from wrong and therefore if she choses to misbehave she faces the consequences like everyone else."

She DOES know different. She's not an animal or a 2-year-old. BPD is not a disease that you have, it is a descriptive term of a set of behaviors. If she sees the world this way, she can just as easily stop seeing it this way. It's her choice.

You said: "i was oblivious for a long time about the anorexia. she hid it well. i was oblivious to the cutting for years. I'm sure she wanted to be seen, but i didn't see what was happening until it was too late."

Some behaviors they save for different audiences. The anorexia and cutting were probably for her peers. You probably would've put her in treatment right away if you'd known and not let her do it, and then she wouldn't have gotten the street cred of being way more depressed than anyone else, "see here are the scars and ribs to prove it."

You said: "bad mum, probably."

Nope. I'm sorry, but I will not allow you to say that.

You said: "and yeah when she showed herself, she wanted, not an audience, but to be seen and to be saved."

Yes, she wants to be saved, FOREVER. There will be no end to it until you stop thinking what you said above and start understanding what's actually happening.

You said: "i cannot tell you how much the word audience makes me think back to all those people who called her an attention seeker as an insult and so ignored her.
or who said to her that suicide was selfish and made her feel worse than she did."

They were right, it was.

You said: "if someone has to cut themselves in order for you to take notice, then please take notice."

Yes, take notice that they are doing everything in their power to manipulate you and DO NOT fall for it.

You said: "And if someone thinks dying is the only way out of the pain they feel, then please have some empathy and compassion and be kind."

So I could write a book about this last sentence. If she has BPD, she has no intention to kill herself. If she has BPD, being empathetic after the first year or so that it takes you to establish that it's BPD will only cause it to continue. I understand the pain. I've lived it. People who are suicidal and not BPD absolutely should get your empathy and compassion. BPDs need the exact opposite.

[languid-mudflaps]

i shan't continue the discussion.
my daughter's behaviour escalated so much i had to evict her to save myself.
i don't believe she is capable of empathy.
but i am.
I am hurt, traumatised and forever changed by the things that have happened over the years, but so is she. She didn't chose BPD and all the scary things that go with it.
and perhaps you are right she wouldn't do things if there was no one to see or care. but does that mean the pain that drives those behaviours would be gone too?

while i hold my daughter accountable for bad behaviour and have installed some pretty strong boundaries in our interactions,  i will never ever blame her for feeling so bad she wants to die or cutting herself as a way to relieve her pain or alerting me to it. 1 in 10 people with this disorder complete suicide. if you wanna call that acting out too, that's fine.

I'm sure, like most of us on here, you've been through some difficult times. I'm sorry that's happened to you. sending peace and love.

[Leaf56]

You said: "i shan't continue the discussion."

I think that's for the best. I realize I'm challenging you, but I'm doing it out of empathy. I think it's so important for parents to understand this so they can absolve themselves of the guilt.

You said: "my daughter's behaviour escalated so much i had to evict her to save myself.
i don't believe she is capable of empathy."

Good for you! And you're right, she's not. At least not at this point.

You said: "but i am."

You certainly are, but you're pummeling yourself with it, and that's not good for you.

You said: "She didn't chose BPD and all the scary things that go with it."

No, you're right, she didn't choose it. But neither did you. And you didn't make it happen, either. She created this personality for herself.

You said: "and perhaps you are right she wouldn't do things if there was no one to see or care. but does that mean the pain that drives those behaviours would be gone too?"

No, but that's irrelevant. I'm not saying I don't care about the pain, I'm saying the pain is irrelevant to the behavior.

You said: "while i hold my daughter accountable for bad behaviour and have installed some pretty strong boundaries in our interactions,  i will never ever blame her for feeling so bad she wants to die or cutting herself as a way to relieve her pain or alerting me to it."

If you'd stopped at "I will never ever blame her for feeling so bad she wants to die" I'd have agreed. But cutting and all that nonsense is not relieving her pain, obviously, and alerting you to it is just an attempt to make you take on her pain and feel it for her. And that's not okay.

You said: 1 in 10 people with this disorder complete suicide. if you wanna call that acting out too, that's fine.

I think you already knew that I would answer in the affirmative to that. Yes, suicides, whether completed or attempted, are indeed acting out for BPD.

You said: "I'm sure, like most of us on here, you've been through some difficult times. I'm sorry that's happened to you. sending peace and love."

That's very kind of you, and absolutely no offense or whatever, but I don't need strangers' sympathy or empathy on a public message board. That's not why I shared something personal about myself. And when I say what I said about myself I meant that I have felt the exact pain that BPDs feel, between the ages of 13 and 20, FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, just like they do. I now think that the two things, personality disorder and concomitant depression are two distinct disorders and I think that this fact has eluded researchers. I'll get into it more some other time, but please, please, DO NOT blame this on yourself.

[languid-mudflaps]

you don't need my sympathy or compassion or whatever. Nor do I need yours. However as a normal human being I cannot help but feel compassion for another human being who has had a difficult time, even if they do not need or want it. My feelings are mine and nothing to do with you.

[Leaf56]

I understand where you're coming from. Thanks for participating on my thread. I really do appreciate all points of view. They help me tremendously in clarifying my own. I always think my best in debate, and I wish you and your family all the best.