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Author Topic: He says he wants to start therapy/see a doctor... Now what?  (Read 479 times)
blackorchid
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« on: August 01, 2021, 12:57:13 PM »

Hi,

My partner dysregulated May 24th and moved out of our home June 2nd.

Since then he has been drinking excessively and coming home sporadically.

On Thursday he came.  Said he needs a doctor, he needs medication, he wants to stop drinking.

I found a doctor but he said it was too expensive. We looked at state doctors but it was 2 week wait and he didn't make the appointment.  He left.

He asked to come home Thursday night but then didn't, said he needs to go to where he is staying.  Friday he messaged me...drinking again.  Said he would come today.  Now he said he's drinking with a friend. 

So after saying he needs to stop drinking and he needs help with it, he is drinking again.

How do I broach this topic with him and help him get help when he's not here?
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2021, 04:05:30 PM »

Hi,

My partner dysregulated May 24th and moved out of our home June 2nd.

Since then he has been drinking excessively and coming home sporadically.

On Thursday he came.  Said he needs a doctor, he needs medication, he wants to stop drinking.

I found a doctor but he said it was too expensive. We looked at state doctors but it was 2 week wait and he didn't make the appointment.  He left.

He asked to come home Thursday night but then didn't, said he needs to go to where he is staying.  Friday he messaged me...drinking again.  Said he would come today.  Now he said he's drinking with a friend. 

So after saying he needs to stop drinking and he needs help with it, he is drinking again.

How do I broach this topic with him and help him get help when he's not here?

Hi Orchid,

The only thing that I can suggest is to put down your bottom line - what are you available for (as opposed to what you are not available for). From there, you just keep reinforcing what you are available for.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about - "I'm available to helping you choose and doctor, and taking your there when you decide that you are going to follow through".

Beyond that, there's the non-verbal communication. Your words "help him get help when he's not here" belies a bit of over functioning from a nurturing p.o.v. He's an adult and needs to commit to adult decisions. So - have you investigated what hurdles are preventing you from laying down firm(er) boundaries. People with mood dysregulation are experts at exploiting soft boundaries.

There is nothing more difficult that watching a loved one shoot themselves in the foot and cause there own suffering.   So hang in there, hold your ground.

Write any time,

Rev
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 07:26:35 AM »


This is why we emphasize to watch and pay attention to what they do, instead of what they say...or say they will do.

Here is the thing.

If you don't want him to drink

and

He says he doesn't want to drink

and

He says he needs you help to NOT drink

Is there any reason to ever drink with him or allow him to be physically with you, while he is drinking? 

Since he has asked for your help, why not ask him if this would be helpful.

Best,

FF
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babyducks
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2021, 09:48:12 AM »

hello blackorchid,

I am sorry you are going through this.    I am sorry you are struggling with this.

Back in 1978 a guy named Tony wrote this about people who grew up in alcoholic families: 

Excerpt
We confuse love and pity and tend to “love” people we can “pity” and “rescue.”

and from our friends at CoDA we have this:

Excerpt
We attempted to use others — our mates, friends, and even our children — as our sole source of identity, value, and well being, and as a way of trying to restore within us the emotional losses from our childhoods

so why am I telling you this?   its fine to try and help him.   its fine to offer suggestions.   its fine to help him find a doctor.     

but it is also important to understand the motivation behind your help, and embrace the limits of what the help can be.   you want to be able to offer help comfortably, without it damaging you.

I found a doctor but he said it was too expensive.

We looked at state doctors but it was 2 week wait and he didn't make the appointment. 

you offered help and he declined.   that's hard.   and for those who grew up in addictive families it feels like a form of rejection.    We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves; this enables us not to look too closely at our own stuff, our own faults and needs.
 
So after saying he needs to stop drinking and he needs help with it, he is drinking again.

Yes.   of course he is.    You know how an addiction to alcohol works.    This shouldn't be a surprise. 


How do I broach this topic with him and help him get help when he's not here?

by staying steady and consistent with your message.    his drinking is not okay.   his drinking is damaging his health and his future.    you are not okay with his drinking.    its not business as usual when he is drinking.     there are boundaries around what you will tolerate and accept as part of your life.

I am going to say what you already know.   you can't force someone to accept help.    and waiting for next week,  next month, next time for him to 'get help"  can be just a way to continue the pattern you grew up with.

I am sorry this is so difficult for you.

'ducks
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blackorchid
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2021, 02:18:45 AM »

Hi Orchid,

The only thing that I can suggest is to put down your bottom line - what are you available for (as opposed to what you are not available for). From there, you just keep reinforcing what you are available for.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about - "I'm available to helping you choose and doctor, and taking your there when you decide that you are going to follow through".

Beyond that, there's the non-verbal communication. Your words "help him get help when he's not here" belies a bit of over functioning from a nurturing p.o.v. He's an adult and needs to commit to adult decisions. So - have you investigated what hurdles are preventing you from laying down firm(er) boundaries. People with mood dysregulation are experts at exploiting soft boundaries.

There is nothing more difficult that watching a loved one shoot themselves in the foot and cause there own suffering.   So hang in there, hold your ground.

Write any time,

Rev

Thanks Rev, I'll reinforce that with him. I meant I don't know how to help him when he's not here, as he has moved out of our home and we are barely talking...
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blackorchid
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2021, 02:25:21 AM »

This is why we emphasize to watch and pay attention to what they do, instead of what they say...or say they will do.

Here is the thing.

If you don't want him to drink

and

He says he doesn't want to drink

and

He says he needs you help to NOT drink

Is there any reason to ever drink with him or allow him to be physically with you, while he is drinking? 

Since he has asked for your help, why not ask him if this would be helpful.

Best,

FF

That's a good idea FF,
we did spend the day together on Monday. Went to the beach together. Again he wasn't very talkative but that's ok...i just lay and read my book. we then went to get some food. Throughout the day he had been saying how tired he is. He got a phone call half way through the meal, a friend asking him to get some drinks. So of course he said he would go. I tried saying why don't you just stay here, we can watch some tv get an early night, you said you're tired.  But he wouldn't have it. I'll only have 2 beers... He said we can do that on Sunday. His friend came and picked us up and dropped me off. ...

Again yesterday he said he needed therapy. I tried booking an appointment with someone that was recommended to me, but its full until february (!). so, I'll try looking elsewhere and just sending him the looks.

Thank you for reminding me to focus on what they do and not what they say
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blackorchid
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2021, 02:45:07 AM »

hello blackorchid,

I am sorry you are going through this.    I am sorry you are struggling with this.

Back in 1978 a guy named Tony wrote this about people who grew up in alcoholic families: 

We confuse love and pity and tend to “love” people we can “pity” and “rescue.”

and from our friends at CoDA we have this:
We attempted to use others — our mates, friends, and even our children — as our sole source of identity, value, and well being, and as a way of trying to restore within us the emotional losses from our childhoods

so why am I telling you this?   its fine to try and help him.   its fine to offer suggestions.   its fine to help him find a doctor.     

but it is also important to understand the motivation behind your help, and embrace the limits of what the help can be.   you want to be able to offer help comfortably, without it damaging you.

you offered help and he declined.   that's hard.   and for those who grew up in addictive families it feels like a form of rejection.    We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves; this enables us not to look too closely at our own stuff, our own faults and needs.
" So after saying he needs to stop drinking and he needs help with it, he is drinking again."
Yes.   of course he is.    You know how an addiction to alcohol works.    This shouldn't be a surprise. 

"How do I broach this topic with him and help him get help when he's not here?"

by staying steady and consistent with your message.    his drinking is not okay.   his drinking is damaging his health and his future.    you are not okay with his drinking.    its not business as usual when he is drinking.     there are boundaries around what you will tolerate and accept as part of your life.

I am going to say what you already know.   you can't force someone to accept help.    and waiting for next week,  next month, next time for him to 'get help"  can be just a way to continue the pattern you grew up with.

I am sorry this is so difficult for you.

'ducks


Thank you 'ducks.

I know that I have a high feeling of "saving" people with drink and feeling like I have to and I know that it is rooted from my parents. I am working on that in therapy, but I don't think I'll be able to work on it quickly enough to deal with it at the moment.  You nailed it when you said it feels like rejection. It definitively does and it makes me feel like I'm not enough. Again something that I am working on.

Thank you for your message.

I'll suggest doing something on sunday night/monday again that's not based around alcohol and find some doctors to send him in the meantime.

As we were leaving the restaurant on Monday he said that he had a lovely day and likes spending time with me...which is a positive step...

In the car I got a bit upset...I was quiet. He was telling his friend how I am his ex fiance, and that I'm going to therapy. He saw I was upset. I left the car so quick when they stopped and just said thanks to the friend for the lift. He messaged asking if I was ok. I said no, thats why I jumped out of the car fast. He asked what's wrong, I said I'm just upset, if I  had answered you, I would have started crying and I didn't want to cry in the car. He said why, what's wrong. I said I'm just upset, I don't want to tell you and then we end up arguing.  He replied later saying we need to go somewhere and spend time together I said yes, that would be nice. Later he messsaged me saying that he misses me and I said me too, very much.

yesterday, he replied why do you miss me? I have seen you many times, I don't understand why you miss me.

I replied saying why I miss him and what I miss..  Including why I was upset yesterday, that I hate coming home to an empty house, I hate him being gone, I hate us being like this.
He replied, sorry but you wanted this life.  you told me to f*&K off, so that's what I did.

I replied I'm sorry that you believe that this i what I wanted. It musn't feel nice to think that. I never wanted this. I said "F off" in the heat of an argument, I didn't mean it literally, I didn't mean leave by saying it. My emotions got the better of me during the argument and I have regretted saying it since.  That is also something I am working on myself and in therapy so I don't let my emotions get the best of me in an argument again.

He replied.  It's good you're going to therapy.I need to go to therapy too.

He is still so caught up on the fact that I said that and him taking it literally. I don't know a  better way to address this with him.
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blackorchid
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2021, 02:48:05 AM »




I replied I'm sorry that you believe that this i what I wanted. It musn't feel nice to think that. I never wanted this. I said "F off" in the heat of an argument, I didn't mean it literally, I didn't mean leave by saying it. My emotions got the better of me during the argument and I have regretted saying it since.  That is also something I am working on myself and in therapy so I don't let my emotions get the best of me in an argument again.



I know that this wasn't the best SET message and if anyone has any tips for a better one for when he brings this up again that would be fantastic. I am emotionally drained. The wildfires are very close to me and seeing the poor animals and thinking of all the loss nearby is really, really affecting me. I am really struggling now with this on top of everything. Everyone here is emotionally worn out right now.
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babyducks
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2021, 07:41:53 AM »

He asked what's wrong, I said I'm just upset, if I  had answered you, I would have started crying and I didn't want to cry in the car. He said why, what's wrong. I said I'm just upset, I don't want to tell you and then we end up arguing.

here is one of the truths that I am completely convinced of.     to have any chance of making a high conflict relationship ~work~ you have to have grade A Plus communication skills.    there has to be top of the line, top shelf clear communications skills.    there has to be the ability to deliver clear, concise laser focused messages.    and do that consistently.    there is a reason bpdfamily talks about communication so much in the lessons and workshops.

I want to point out there is no need to say 'just'.   if you are upset - you are upset.   addressing the upset in the car or as you departing the car probably wasn't a good idea.    picking the right time to say what you want is important.    how do you think it would have went if you said something like 'instead of talking about this over text, let see if we can discuss it in person when I next see you?'

again this is from our friends over at coda.org
Excerpt
Codependents often….
1. compromise their values and integrity to avoid rejection and other people’s anger.
2. are very sensitive to other’s feelings and assume the same feelings.
3. are extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
4. place a higher value on other’s opinions and feelings and are afraid to express differing viewpoints or feelings.
5. put aside their own interests in order to do what others want.
6. accept sex as a substitute for love.

I know that is a tough list to look at.    probably painful.    how about we just look at number four right now: place a higher value on other’s opinions and feelings and are afraid to express differing viewpoints or feelings.

I think I can safely say that all of us in these dysfunctional relationships have learned quickly and painfully that expressing our differing viewpoints or feelings can set off a rage or a dysregulation.      would you agree?

the thing is, after that we have two choices.    we can stop trying to express our opinions and feelings, stuff them, ignore them and focus entirely on the pwBPD or we can do the hard internal personal work of improving our communication skills and emotional maturity so we can function.     I'll admit its not easy.   and I'll say that most of arrive here having made the first choice.

that's a bunch to wade through - I hope you are still with me?   lets dig in and do some hard work?

He replied, sorry but you wanted this life.  you told me to f*&K off, so that's what I did.

lets review what we know about pwBPD,   they do not have adult coping skills, they are emotionally immature and impulsive in ways that are usually destructive.   how much of this would you describe as him being hurt?   him being angry?   him punishing you?    him justifying his own behavior?  him blame shifting?    how did this get to be about you saying F off when he hasn't been sober for 3 days in a row?

I replied I'm sorry that you believe that this i what I wanted. It musn't feel nice to think that. I never wanted this. I said "F off" in the heat of an argument, I didn't mean it literally, I didn't mean leave by saying it. My emotions got the better of me during the argument and I have regretted saying it since.  That is also something I am working on myself and in therapy so I don't let my emotions get the best of me in an argument again.

how much of this is JADE?   can you identify the JADE in what you wrote here?

how much of this is guilt?   from the FOG - fear, obligation and guilt?  how much of this is fear of driving him away? can you identify for us here what you feel about telling him to F off?

coming up with a good SET message is like walking on a balance beam.    you want to balance you way between several thoughts, while lightly touching on the important pieces.      

what do you see as the important pieces in any message to him ?     while we can provide some of our experience it is important the message reflects you - your boundaries,  your ideas.    that's why all the questions.    

I'll stop here for now.

'ducks


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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2021, 07:48:02 AM »

Hey...for now I'm saying these things for you to understand how boundaries work, not suggesting that you try and implement one at this point, especially around alcohol.

A boundary is not learning how to talk him out of it or convince him not do go with a friends for "just two beers".  (you don't control any of that).

You do control where you go, you do control who comes and goes from your apartment.

So...if you decide that you won't be in the presence of a person that has or is consuming alcohol..your control of your body empowers you to move yourself away from that person.
That's the essence of the boundary.

Again...you can't control how that person reacts to your boundary.

Same thing for who comes and goes to your apartment or if a person shows up under the no drinking agreement, yet abrogates that agreement...you can tell that person to leave and if they don't leave, since it's your apartment you can get authorities to remove an unwanted person.  Those are all things in your control, other people don't get even the smallest vote in that.

Just like you don't get a "vote" or any control over how they react to your boundaries.

Please don't attempt any of this yet.  I do hope we can have a conversation to make sure you understand the differences in boundaries and (for instance) a SET statement that is intended to influence another persons actions.

You know...I just thought of something to consider.

Alcohol is a big deal...how about phones and screens being on?

Could you do a boundary that says "I'm willing to spend time with you..connect with you with screens and phones off for our "date".  This demonstrates that this relationship is so important to us that we will shut off the outside world for a while...and be present with each other for a while

I thought of that because had phones been off...there would have been no invitation to have beers.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF
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blackorchid
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2021, 01:14:28 PM »

here is one of the truths that I am completely convinced of.     to have any chance of making a high conflict relationship ~work~ you have to have grade A Plus communication skills.    there has to be top of the line, top shelf clear communications skills.    there has to be the ability to deliver clear, concise laser focused messages.    and do that consistently.    there is a reason bpdfamily talks about communication so much in the lessons and workshops.

I want to point out there is no need to say 'just'.   if you are upset - you are upset.   addressing the upset in the car or as you departing the car probably wasn't a good idea.    picking the right time to say what you want is important.    how do you think it would have went if you said something like 'instead of talking about this over text, let see if we can discuss it in person when I next see you?'



I didn't say that I was upset in the car, or as I was leaving, I didn't say anything.  He could tell from looking at me that I was and then messaged me to ask.
 I actually did add, I hope we can talk about this in person to him. But he didn't answer... I added that yesterday aswell when he said this is what I wanted.


again this is from our friends over at coda.org
I know that is a tough list to look at.    probably painful.    how about we just look at number four right now: place a higher value on other’s opinions and feelings and are afraid to express differing viewpoints or feelings.

I think I can safely say that all of us in these dysfunctional relationships have learned quickly and painfully that expressing our differing viewpoints or feelings can set off a rage or a dysregulation.      would you agree?

yes, 100% 

the thing is, after that we have two choices.    we can stop trying to express our opinions and feelings, stuff them, ignore them and focus entirely on the pwBPD or we can do the hard internal personal work of improving our communication skills and emotional maturity so we can function.     I'll admit its not easy.   and I'll say that most of arrive here having made the first choice.

yes Im sure that number 2 isn't easy but I'm willing to try, i'm sure it would benefit me in my family dynamics as well.


that's a bunch to wade through - I hope you are still with me?   lets dig in and do some hard work?

lets review what we know about pwBPD,   they do not have adult coping skills, they are emotionally immature and impulsive in ways that are usually destructive.   how much of this would you describe as him being hurt?   him being angry?   him punishing you?    him justifying his own behavior?  him blame shifting?    how did this get to be about you saying F off when he hasn't been sober for 3 days in a row?

Yes, i would say that this is all coming from a place of all of the above.  Just to be clear,  this is from the argument of May 24th when I told him to F off. It's not recent. He has held onto it since then and hasn't let go out it. Constantly says that I said it so he left...that this is what I wanted...


how much of this is JADE?   can you identify the JADE in what you wrote here?

how much of this is guilt?   from the FOG - fear, obligation and guilt?  how much of this is fear of driving him away? can you identify for us here what you feel about telling him to F off?

I was actually not trying to JADE but I can see the JADE in it now, I was aiming for truth, that yes I said it but I didn't mean it the way that he thinks I meant it.


coming up with a good SET message is like walking on a balance beam.    you want to balance you way between several thoughts, while lightly touching on the important pieces.      

what do you see as the important pieces in any message to him ?     while we can provide some of our experience it is important the message reflects you - your boundaries,  your ideas.    that's why all the questions.    

I'll stop here for now.

'ducks


I guess if he says again that this is what I wanted, or I said F off so he did. I want it to say that no its not what I meant and that this is not what I wanted.
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blackorchid
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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2021, 01:18:10 PM »

Hey...for now I'm saying these things for you to understand how boundaries work, not suggesting that you try and implement one at this point, especially around alcohol.

A boundary is not learning how to talk him out of it or convince him not do go with a friends for "just two beers".  (you don't control any of that).

You do control where you go, you do control who comes and goes from your apartment.

So...if you decide that you won't be in the presence of a person that has or is consuming alcohol..your control of your body empowers you to move yourself away from that person.
That's the essence of the boundary.

Again...you can't control how that person reacts to your boundary.

Same thing for who comes and goes to your apartment or if a person shows up under the no drinking agreement, yet abrogates that agreement...you can tell that person to leave and if they don't leave, since it's your apartment you can get authorities to remove an unwanted person.  Those are all things in your control, other people don't get even the smallest vote in that.

Just like you don't get a "vote" or any control over how they react to your boundaries.

Please don't attempt any of this yet.  I do hope we can have a conversation to make sure you understand the differences in boundaries and (for instance) a SET statement that is intended to influence another persons actions.

You know...I just thought of something to consider.

Alcohol is a big deal...how about phones and screens being on?

Could you do a boundary that says "I'm willing to spend time with you..connect with you with screens and phones off for our "date".  This demonstrates that this relationship is so important to us that we will shut off the outside world for a while...and be present with each other for a while

I thought of that because had phones been off...there would have been no invitation to have beers.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Thank you FF, yes I see that.

I love that idea of no screens. Part of the reason why we are not talking when I see him is because he is constantly on his phone and so not talking to me.. Although I do love the roll on from that, that then he wouldn't get the messages to leave. Genius idea! I'm not too sure if he will be so enthralled with the idea, but I will try it..

He's messaged me today asking if I want to stay in a hotel with him at the weekend... (the one where we met). So I think that would be the perfect time to try and go screenless...
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Rev
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2021, 04:16:02 PM »

Thank you FF, yes I see that.

I love that idea of no screens. Part of the reason why we are not talking when I see him is because he is constantly on his phone and so not talking to me.. Although I do love the roll on from that, that then he wouldn't get the messages to leave. Genius idea! I'm not too sure if he will be so enthralled with the idea, but I will try it..

He's messaged me today asking if I want to stay in a hotel with him at the weekend... (the one where we met). So I think that would be the perfect time to try and go screenless...

Just wanting to say I love where this whole conversation has gone. Good luck and godspeed as you find your way.

Rev
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2021, 05:11:27 PM »


Part of the "art form" of boundaries is finding how to accomplish your goal/protect your values with the minimum amount of energy/upset.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2021, 12:10:04 AM »

Just wanting to say I love where this whole conversation has gone. Good luck and godspeed as you find your way.

Rev

Thank you Rev
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 421


« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2021, 12:10:43 AM »

Part of the "art form" of boundaries is finding how to accomplish your goal/protect your values with the minimum amount of energy/upset.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF  I will keep that in mind
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