Do they have a clue?

[Notwendy]

I have not seen BPD mom in a while due to the pandemic. Now that she's vaccinated it felt safe enough to visit. One would think she'd be happy to see us and resist the drama after a long break, but just our presence was enough for her to start messing with us, manipulating, demanding and playing victim when we finally had to say no to something, lying, setting us up, asking for help while getting upset with us if we asked her questions about what she asked us to do.

On my last day there, she made sure I knew how much I upset her during the visit because I did something for her out of order and she wanted me to do something else first. This was also after being called stupid and other verbal insults. Although I did several nice things for her, including providing for and cooking meals, running errands, she didn't thank me for the visit. I ended up apologizing to her for upsetting her and then left.

A day later she managed to say a brief thank you for what I did. Then she assumes she's welcome to move nearer to me and asks a sibling the same thing. As if she's clueless that her antics and verbal insults have no impact. When we visited her before Covid, she did she same thing.

There's no way either of us want to deal with this, and I have made it clear to the social worker that we want her to stay where she is, where visits are under our control, not hers because we can't manage it any other way. But it still astounds me that she seems to have no clue why we don't want to be dealing with her. She can't even hold it together to be polite to us after not seeing us for over a year. It's almost as she can't resist the game playing and manipulation.

Either she's completely clueless or some kind of sociopath who enjoys taking advantage of our kindhearted natures and gullibility to her ploys, because she keeps her agenda secret, and seems to enjoy when we comply to something we are not fully informed about. Since it's a short visit, we are not inclined to argue with her and she feels free to verbally abuse us. It's probably impossible to know, but I wonder if she enjoys this.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
I am sorry your mother treated you so badly after not seeing her for a year. With disordered family members, it can help to let go of the hope that things will ever get better, while being as realistic as you possibly can about just how bad things could get when you can't really predict the future knowing you could never act as badly as they do. I had similar questions about if my family members enjoyed being cruel to me, and regularly watching Dr. Ramani's youtube videos on narcissism has really helped me to cope. The hurt is so deep when it is your mother who is cruel to you, the person who is supposed to love you unconditionally and provide you with feeling loved and valued your whole life even after she has passed away. You are a loving and caring mother to your own children. Can you possibly think about the love you feel for your children when your mother treats you badly? The best advice my therapist ever gave me was to notice my feelings when in the presence of a disordered person instead of getting enmeshed in how they are feeling and projecting their negativity onto others.
We are here to support you as always. It is so hard to know what to say in these situations as the abuse never stops and just gets worse.

[Notwendy]

I think we felt we needed to get an idea of how she was doing after not seeing her for so long, and I think we learned from this visit that despite our intentions, this is how she chooses to interact with us. We did all we possibly could to assess the situation and we are left mostly in the dark due to her refusal to allow us to access the information we need to be able to assist her. Mostly she plays us as fools. If this is the entirety of her relationship with us- we see no point in visiting her. Not that we expected things to be different but we know now that they are the same as they have been.

I think she needs to be a victim and may even be pushing us to cut contact with her. Then she'll report that her horrible children have done this. Yet, she does that already. We had a lovely get together with her FOO, and we were polite, they would think we are horrible- but they likely think we are already. We haven't wanted her material possessions beyond what may be sentimental family items. What we really wanted was to do the right thing but she has made it hard for us.

Although we assumed a visit was a good thing, she has friends and family who she seems to get along better with. We're just going to be LC for now.

[zachira]

It sounds like you are going from LC to super LC.
I like your strategy of having your mother mostly being in contact with her FOO and friends she maintains her facade with. In my mother's later years, I tried to mostly be around her with people she wanted to look good in front of and with whom she  would never show her ugly behaviors. Of course, she is going to continue to try to manipulate you and others, and if you are not in her actual presence, it will make it much more difficult for her to do so.

[Methuen]

Do they have a clue?

Personally, I think not.  I don't believe they have a clue. 

When a person's thinking is distorted, and it's distorted as a psychological survival defence, and they are stuck in a permanent victim role, and their brain isn't physically wired to be analytical, reflective, or empathetic, it's my theory that they don't have a clue.  They only know how to blame.

I am so sad to hear that the visit went badly, and can empathize how disappointing, frustrating, and hopeless it must make you feel afterwards.

One would think she'd be happy to see us and resist the drama after a long break, but just our presence was enough for her to start messing with us, manipulating, demanding and playing victim

Hoping she would be happy to see you is so natural because of the mother-daughter relationship expectations we all have, and also because it's coming from a logical and healthy place (i.e. you).  I think it's really hard to give up hope that your mother can change, even a fraction of a percent!  Although the context of my situation was different with my mom than your situation with your mom, I eventually also hit the wall, and realized I was going have to be the one to change how I interacted with her and reacted to her, because I finally had clarity that my mom was never going to change.  She couldn't.  For me, that is what "radical acceptance" meant.  Following that "acceptance", was a long period of grief.  But back to radical acceptance... I think if we can "radically accept" who they are, we are in a better place to potentially "meet them where they are at".  For me, what followed was no longer having expectations of her (in your case that she would be happy to see you after the Covid break).  Letting go of the expectations of my mom in turn reduced my frustration level (but doesn't eliminate it).

 

just our presence was enough for her to start messing with us, manipulating, demanding and playing victim

Sigh.  Repeat sigh. 

It's almost as she can't resist the game playing and manipulation.

This might be the case, because maybe these are the strategies her brain is wired up to understand, and use.

I'm reading a book currently (The Body Knows the Score), which I think explains this really well...better than me.  Other reading, life experience, and this book is helping me to better understand why my mother is such a "case". What follows is my interpretation of the book and other reading, and this interpretation has helped me to cope.  Here goes.  I think the research shows that many people with BPD come from FOO's where abuse was a part of the family culture.  Many were victims of abuse.  The home was not safe physically or emotionally or both, and so to survive they developed unhealthy strategies for coping, and for relating to other people. As a result of relationship deficiencies (love, trust etc) and the constant presence of stress and trauma, their brains have been wired differently than ours.  Their brains have not been wired to empathize, or analyze or reflect.  But personally I suspect the emotional region of their brain is hyperactive.  At any rate, whatever caused them to develop BPD would require intensive work and effort to change on their part, so that whatever brain connections were missing could be forged and formed to wire up the non-active area(s) of the brain. That the brain has neuroplasticity, and can grow new connections is amazing.  But I think that for people with BPD, for their brains to be rewired to think in healthier ways, they have to do CBT, or DBT, or other therapies.  In your mom's case (and my mom's case) they haven't done this "work" (and never will), so the fact that Covid happened and your mom hasn't seen you in a long time, doesn't change the fact that she still isn't able to treat you with respect, or kindness, or appreciate your visit, because her brain probably isn't wired up to do those things (at least with people in close relationships).  When seeing you for the first time after Covid, her brain (i.e. language and behavior) simply falls back into the only patterns it knows, because those are the connections, pathways, and wiring she formed from childhood.  The pathways in her brain are for "manipulating, demanding, playing victim, lying, setting you up, asking for help while still getting upset with you etc".  That is BPD brain wiring.  I'm no expert, but I know a little bit about child development and the importance of providing nurturing environments for children which foster the development of trust.  People who are not blessed with this environment are more at risk for adverse outcomes.  Enter BPD as a possible adverse outcome.  Thinking about my mom's uBPD this way, has helped me to better understand and accept why she will never change and thinking about it this way helps me manage my expectations, and also how I communicate and interact with her.  She still frustrates the  out of me sometimes, drives me crazy at other times, and hijacks my life every time she has another fall.  But if I didn't have an explanation for her brain that I could understand, I believe I would either be in a psych ward myself, or be an angry negative miserable person projecting my frustrations onto others, or I would have to go fully NC.  As it is, like you - and for my own reasons, I have chosen to keep contact with her.  It's such a hard thing to navigate.  It's exhausting, because there's just never a break from it (our mom's are old, and needy). They make terrible decisions, and we have to pick up the pieces because we are their child. Maybe my interpretation of the book I'm reading, and the workings of their brain won't be helpful to you at all, but it's kind of all I have right now, so I thought I would share. 

On another note, you've done your post Covid in-person visit now.  And although it didn't go at the way you would have liked, or brought any results you were hoping for, it's done.  Now you can slow things down, regroup, take time to "fill yourself up" with self-care, before the next thing comes. 

I ended up apologizing to her for upsetting her and then left.

  When I started my recovery journey a couple of years ago, I read somewhere (Eggshells?  Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder?  Or maybe it was on this website?) that we shouldn't apologize unless we genuinely have something to apologize for.  Whatever she said, it strikes me that she manipulated you into feeling like you needed to apologize.  Did you feel better or worse after apologizing to her?

There's no way either of us want to deal with this, and I have made it clear to the social worker that we want her to stay where she is, where visits are under our control, not hers because we can't manage it any other way.

    This is good. I'm glad you found someone to share this with.  Did you feel listened to and heard?   Did the social worker empathize with you? I had to come out and tell my mom's case manager, that "I couldn't deal with her, and that my well-being and mental health was in jeopardy."  As I had already relayed many stories, and was in distress and crying, it was evident that I meant what I was saying.  In my case, that disclosure was what was needed to obtain community home care for my mom.  I had to say "I couldn't take care of her at home" after her fall, and tell them why.  Saying that was really awful.  But it got mom the home care after her fall, even though she was furious and didn't want it.  I think what I'm suggesting is to not hold back on information to the social worker.  Having said that, I'm not sure how much the social worker can influence your mom if she is still deemed fit and able to make her own decisions.  But at least s/he can do some work behind the scenes and potentially make a difference.  Does your mom live in assisted living, or...?

I hope tomorrow is a better day Notwendy.

[Turkish]

Whatever she said, it strikes me that she manipulated you into feeling like you needed to apologize.  Did you feel better or worse after apologizing to her?

To paraphrase something I remember from Lawson's book, she continues to behave that way because that's what has worked for her throughout life in order to survive. Lawson was talking about lying.

It's very tough to deal with when a parent is aging and becoming more vulnerable.

[Notwendy]

Methuen,

I don't think I felt heard so much but the social worker knows my mother and how difficult she is. I thought it was important for her to know what resources are available as my mother needs assisted living. Working with her is a challenge, as she finds something wrong with each one she sees, except the one in her fantasy which is closer to me which she's not seen but decided on due to one of her friends talking about it. I've gone through this kind of thing many times. There could even be nicer places near her.

I actually looked at several places a while back, but my parents would only consider one they "heard of through so and so's sister's cousin's hairdresser". It's an odd thing that they reject my recommendations over a total stranger's but such is the nature of BPD. ( Dad didn't have BPD but he went along with my mother's choices)

So knowing that this discussion is on the table with the social worker, I can state my preferences too. I think it's important for her to know our limits when she's helping my mother find resources. In a more normal situation, I would have looked at some places near her but she will reject my suggestions over those of someone else. It's better that the social worker helps her with this. Also, to help choose a place, I would need to know her finances to find an affordable place, and she's not going to tell me those.

Methuen, the abuse connection is interesting. I suspect my mother was sexually abused from some of her behaviors, but I have no proof and don't suspect her direct family members. She had a cousin about the same age who also had behaviors consistent with BPD- even more obvious. What I wonder about is if she was also abused and it was by the same person?- maybe a relative on her side or something? Nobody on my mother's side of the family has ever led me to suspect this. I know there's a possible genetic component, but two same age cousins with similar issues does make me wonder. And while I am sad for them if this unfortunately happened, I can't change the dynamics for my mother now.

The apologizing- was it sincere? It had a very odd quality. At first it wasn't- it was almost sarcasm as I exaggerated the apology to emphasize how absurd it was that after the entire visit, this is what she focused on. I even kept it up to the point where she was saying "enough already" and yet, I felt I had to keep going because the meaning of it changed as I was saying it.  I just kept saying " I am so so sorry" and I was sad and I meant it- I am so so sorry that I tried to come and make this visit good for you and that I failed and this is all you can process from it. I am sorry that this is how you perceived this visit.

Sorry because I can't change the dynamics between us.

I read a while back that trying to help someone like this is- the person is standing on a bridge, about to jump off, and holding a rope. You get on the bridge to help and they tie the rope around their waist, hand the end to you, and jump. If you hold on to the rope, you will get pulled over too. What do you do?

I took lifesaving water classes as a teen. In class, they tell you that a drowning person is frantic and will grab on to you and drag you down with them. They don't mean to, they are frantic. A part of the class is teaching you how to get out of the grip of a drowning person so they don't drown you too. Then they teach you how to get a grip on them to pull them to safety if you can do it, but if they grab you, you have to get out of the grip. They also teach you to use something else if you can, like a net by a pool or an inner tube for them to grab on to so they don't grab you.

If you can get the correct hold on a person, their part is to relax and let you pull them to safety. If they continue to thrash, struggle, grab at you, you can't do that. In the class we practiced with the instructor and eventually he would cooperate and let me "save" him.

With my mother, she's emotionally struggling, thrashing and when I get near her, she grabs on to me and my only choice is to let go or just let her emotionally drag me into her dysfunction, and I just can't do that. She will not let up to the point I might be of help. I told the social worker that it's better for me to have distance- and for her too. I think she can understand that.

[Notwendy]

On the abuse theory, it's possible that she plays this out with the people closest to her and that she's repeating a fixed pattern. No matter how hard we try to show her that we are not trying to harm her, she isn't able to perceive this. We could be doing nice things for her, yet, with her seeking "evidence" that we are abusive, any mistake we make is what she registers and if we don't make a serious transgression, any perceived one will do.

Perhaps she "sets us up" to become the persecutor to confirm this, or is in the "I will hurt you first before you can hurt me" and sets that up too. Maybe we are the means for her to replay this in a way that she remains in control so that we really can't hurt her too much. If this is the case, she's sadly stuck in this pattern. It won't matter how far apart the visits are, because time isn't relevant when the pattern is set.

Or she wants us to "save her" from the trauma, but somehow we fail at it, because we can't change it for her. According to her, we are the persecutor. She needs to defend herself and hurt back. I know my father tried as best as he could to ease this emotional discomfort for her. Now, perhaps it's our visits that cause her to take this behavioral loop.

I think it's important to not take victim perspective in this. I feel sorry for her and I also feel sad that we are truly powerless to make a difference for her.

[madeline7]

I don't think my uBPDm has a clue. And at times when she appears to know that she may have upset me, she goes on a rant about that is just how family behaves. Because she always bickered with my Dad, she says bickering and being upset with family is "normal". You love each other and you fight, that's what family does. And she also dysregulates so much at times that I don't think she remembers how intensely abnormal she behaves. I have come to understand that I cannot reason with her since she is unreasonable. And like you, I recently saw my Mom after not seeing for for over 1 year due to the pandemic, and nothing changed. She is more frail now and more waif like but has not lost her ability to manipulate and act out.

[Notwendy]

Yes my mother explains this as "normal" family disagreement too, but verbal abuse and having family members emotionally distraught from it is not normal bickering. There's also no apology or attempts to repair which happens if someone loses their temper in an argument.

[Oh Brother]

Wow this thread is a gold mine!

"As if she's clueless that her antics and verbal insults have no impact."  Exactly.  Do pwBPD not realize that their actions have consequences?

"It's almost as she can't resist the game playing and manipulation."  I wrote the same sentiment to my sister in response to her most recent rage: "you just can't help yourself, can you."

"may even be pushing us."  Yes! I set a boundary with my sister during her most recent rage, and she intentionally broke it, immediately.  It was as if she was daring me to follow through with consequences of breaking it.  Probably so that she can later claim I'm a horrible person for enforcing the consequences.

"friends she maintains her facade with ...  with whom she would never show her ugly behaviors."  Indeed.  From what I've seen of pwBPD, they put up a facade in certain company or in certain situations.

The analogy to saving a drowning person is just perfect.

"I have come to understand that I cannot reason with her since she is unreasonable."  Exactly.

PS. At some point I'll have to become proficient with this website's excerpting capability.  But for now at least I'm decoding y'alls acronyms correctly I think.

[Methuen]

Working with her is a challenge, as she finds something wrong with each one she sees, except the one in her fantasy which is closer to me which she's not seen but decided on due to one of her friends talking about it...I actually looked at several places a while back, but my parents would only consider one they "heard of through so and so's sister's cousin's hairdresser". It's an odd thing that they reject my recommendations over a total stranger's

 This echoes my experience perfectly.  My mom was rejecting my idea of discussing going back onto her antidepressants with her doctor, and she somehow twisted that away from me trying to be helpful, towards suggesting there was something wrong with her.  However, not long after, coincidentally two of her good friends shared how they went on mirtazapine, and she went straight to see her doctor and asked for the same antidepressant.  When I suggested it, I was terrible for suggesting it.  When her friends suggested it, she immediately wanted it.  I can relate to how frustrating it is to try to help our mother, but our mother rejects the idea when it is ours, but embraces the same idea when it comes from someone else.  This has been explained to me by a geriatric specialist as possibly falling within the spectrum of pathological demand avoidance.  I don't know.  At any rate, I have learned from this happening repeatedly to not try to solve her problems for her, but let her discuss them with her friends when she is ready.  She listens to them, unfortunately she doesn't listen to me.  Sadly, one of her friends told mom she would never wear a Lifeline.  My mom has never worn her Lifeline.  Sigh.

If I understand this right, your mom wants to move closer to you, because a friend of hers recommended a place close to you. Does that sound about right?  How close is close?  My mom is 6 min away.  That's plenty close.  If she was next door or on the next block, that would be too close.  I get why this potential move is worrying.  

I would have looked at some places near her but she will reject my suggestions over those of someone else. It's better that the social worker helps her with this. Also, to help choose a place, I would need to know her finances to find an affordable place, and she's not going to tell me those.

Well done, NotWendy.  Good to know when to step back.

I felt I had to keep going because the meaning of it changed as I was saying it.  I just kept saying " I am so so sorry" and I was sad and I meant it- I am so so sorry that I tried to come and make this visit good for you and that I failed

I hear you about how how the apologizing changed from having a tone of sarcasm, to a genuine I'm sorry this is how you perceived the visit.  She will hear what she wants to out of that.  One of the problems with being so apologetic is that you are giving her all the power.  This is something to contemplate.  Is there anything else you could say, that wouldn't include the word "sorry" or "apology", but that would convey the same genuine end message?

The bridge-rope-jump analogy is a good one.  I have not heard that one before.  Thank you for sharing.  It is helpful.

The drowning person- life saving story is another excellent and helpful analogy.  It's also good information to know on a personal level.  Thank you for that story too.  I hope the social worker you spoke to has experience with BPD.  I told the social worker that it's better for me to have distance- and for her too. I think she can understand that.

No matter how hard we try to show her that we are not trying to harm her, she isn't able to perceive this. We could be doing nice things for her, yet, with her seeking "evidence" that we are abusive, any mistake we make is what she registers and if we don't make a serious transgression, any perceived one will do.

I'm no therapist, but I understand something about child development, and it sounds to me like your mother never learned to trust, especially the people she depended on as a child.  The bit about her seeking evidence that you are abusive is a big red flag.  I can't imagine anyone doing that, unless they have experience with abuse.

Perhaps she "sets us up" to become the persecutor to confirm this, or is in the "I will hurt you first before you can hurt me" and sets that up too. Maybe we are the means for her to replay this in a way that she remains in control so that we really can't hurt her too much. If this is the case, she's sadly stuck in this pattern. It won't matter how far apart the visits are, because time isn't relevant when the pattern is set.

Yep

I feel sorry for her and I also feel sad that we are truly powerless to make a difference for her.

Yep again.  The approach I have taken is akin to "harm reduction".  Now that I understand BPD, and understand the role the abuse in her FOO played in all this, I do what you have done, which is set boundaries, support but not smother, let her figure out how to solve her own problems, take more time to look after myself, and use every tool available on this website when interacting with her.  It helps a lot, but as Zachira always says, having a mother with BPD is a lifelong sorrow.

There's also no apology or attempts to repair which happens if someone loses their temper in an argument.

Right.  My mom's maladaptive response is to pretend it never happened.  There's never any resolution or closure.  Somehow, their brain can forget and just pretend it never happened - like a delete button.  Maybe that's the only way they can live with themselves.

[Notwendy]

The hard part about being near my mother is the constant boundary pushing. If I say yes to something, there's an unexpected add on. Also the requests come with incomplete information ( that she withholds on purpose) so that what I thought I agreed on becomes something else. There are many things I am willing to do, but there's no sense of limits to her requests and the constant push push ultimately leads to me saying "no" to something. At that point, she goes into victim mode, the one "no" is a huge ordeal, everything else I did is erased for her and I become the person who never does anything she wants.

Even with the long break due to Covid, this pattern persisted at the visit. The first thing she said when I told her I would like to visit was a list of things she wanted me to do. Not "it will be nice to see you" or anything like that. Somehow she sees me as a service provider. Sometimes she thwarts my attempts to do what she asked by making it harder for me to do them or changing her mind, in which case I "disobeyed" her by not doing what she wanted me to do.

She has sometimes used terms to describe us helping her as if we were children, or even dogs. She's said " I told my family you were a good girl today" and I have heard her say "good boy" and "good girl" when referring to other family members. At one point she was angry at me for not offering to bring her some water, but she never said she was thirsty so I had no idea. Then, when I offered to bring her water she was indignant. Apparently I fail at mind reading too.

I think this kind of interaction, the set up for me to inevitably disappoint her, is her own pattern. Perhaps to deal with some kind of abuse she experienced in the past, or some need to feel like a victim. I know it's not about me, but it's also frustrating because in this scenario, I could be anyone, and this makes me wonder if there's any point to visiting her since this is the result. I feel sad for her that this kind of hurt causes her to interact like this with people close to her, but I can't change this for her.

So how close is too close? Within driving distance. As of now, I don't live close enough to her to fulfill the immediate requests. This cuts down on the demands and means less requests I would say no too. There are some I might be willing to do, but to her there's no boundary. I can have boundaries and this means I need to say no sometimes. This then becomes more opportunities for her to feel like a victim.  There are only two ways to interact with her: as a docile obedient servant to every request, or say no and upset her, and with distance, there's a limit to this.

[Methuen]

Oh my, when I read your last post, its lke we could share the same mother.

Even after 2 years on this forum, it is still remarkable to me how pwBPD are like a mathematical formula - the result is the same.  Peas from the same pod.  Cookies cut from the same cutter.  I think it’s because I spent my life feeling isolated, confused, and frustrated, and I still can’t really comprehend there’s an a large group of people all over the world who have thinking and behavior problems just like my mom and its a disease.  Remarkable. 

On boundaries I can relate.  I have almost always lived within driving distance of my mother (except for university years).  Mother has no boundaries.  Having to be the adult and always put them in place and enforce them can be tiring and exhausting at times.  But it can be done.  Not enforcing them isn’t even thinkable for me.  Like you, I have chosen to keep contact.  It’s doable, but thankfully I have a supportive H who shares the load with me.  I do not have anyone else other than a T who “gets” the dynamic with my mom, and of course this community .  Do you have at least one person around you who is supportive if your mom moves closer?

The first thing she said when I told her I would like to visit was a list of things she wanted me to do.

. OMG this made me laugh.  Mother has a list for us every time one of us goes there.  That’s just never going to change.  She’s 85, so at this point, my only purpose for existing is to serve her needs.  I manage with boundaries.  If life is a highway, this one has a lot of potholes.

My mom has told me I am a good girl too.  I’m 59.  Light bulb idea:  I might use a little humour the next time an opportunity comes to reinforce something my mom says or does, and say “Good girl mom”!   Sad thing is she would probably like that.  About a year ago, she asked me in a little girl voice if I would be her mummy.  She was 84.  Messed up emotional incest.  She made me be her mummy when I was a little girl and had to take care of her when she got her migraines.  And every time her feelings ran amok.

I guess my point is to give you hope that if she does move closer to you, it can still be managed.  I can’t help but think that her friend who suggested this has her own secret motivations. 

[Notwendy]

I guess my point is to give you hope that if she does move closer to you, it can still be managed.  I can’t help but think that her friend who suggested this has her own secret motivations.


Thanks-

Yes, the ulterior motive. Her FOO who constantly tells me how wonderful she is doesn't get involved too much with her. As my father's health was declining, it was obvious that their expectation ( and my father's as well) was that I would be her caretaker. I was naive to the family dynamics then, and started out with that idea in mind but when faced with her being uncooperative and abusive, I realized this idea won't work and backed off. Their response: "NW has problems-she is the problem"- assuming I was still acting like a rebellious teen and had some kind of immature issue with my mother.

Her FOO has no interest in truly getting involved with her and also, she keeps her best image on with them. They know there's more to that- but I doubt they'd ever admit it. Ironically in that family, I think they see my purpose as to serve her. Looking back, I have rarely seen them express any true interest in me as a person.

When I realized I needed boundaries with her, they were all angry at me. I know the dynamics now.

[Turkish]

About a year ago, she asked me in a little girl voice if I would be her mummy.  She was 84.  Messed up emotional incest.  She made me be her mummy when I was a little girl and had to take care of her when she got her migraines.  And every time her feelings ran amok.

That's creepy and sad and tragic.

[Notwendy]

It's also really sad. I have heard my mother talking in a baby voice asking to have things done for her. She has a great need to be taken care of. She asks to have things done for her that she easily can do for herself. I think it's more about the "doing for her" than the actual need.

She's even asked me to get her a cup of water and when I bring her the water, she has thrown it out. Once when we were visiting she asked my kids to do something for her. The kids were busy, so I offered to do it and she refused, saying she wanted the kids to do it. So it was more about the kids making her a priority to do something for her.

[Methuen]

She has a great need to be taken care of. She asks to have things done for her that she easily can do for herself. I think it's more about the "doing for her" than the actual need.

yes yes.  Although, from the pwBPD point of view, its a need to them.  My theory is that they feel so empty inside they do this kind of stuff to feel validated. But the empiness is a black hole, because whatever is causing the emptiness (the root of the problem) is never addressed by them.  For a couple of years now, H and I have had the boundary of not doing for her what she can do for herself.  For example, calling to make her appointments ( and a million other functional daily tasks).  It always comes back to boundaries. If we didn’t have boundaries we would be her slave. 

Once when we were visiting she asked my kids to do something for her. The kids were busy, so I offered to do it and she refused, saying she wanted the kids to do it.

This is where it gets tricky.  Is she capable of getting the water herself?  Was she sick with illness when she asked for it?  Or was it attention seeking behavior?  H and I are constantly evaluating every request or demand: is this something she can do for herself?  It’s exhausting.  When you offered to get it for her, you were acting in a kind and helpful way.  Could it be you are also still motivated to seek her approval (I think almost all of us are motivated to seek approval of our parents)?  The problem with this is we are playing right into their need for attention, which is part of the disorder in my mom’s case.  It ends up feeling like we are being manipulated or even abused if we fall into the people pleasing trap with a disordered person.  So H and I walk the tightrope by helping her with the things she can’t do for herself.  The constant thinking and analysis gets wearing.

[Notwendy]

The motivation for offering was to keep the kids from being enlisted as her caretakers. The reason she wanted them to do it was to have them meet this emotional need, so I was intervening. Karpman triangle dynamics- but they were still younger at the time so would not be able to say no to her and deal with her reaction. They are older now.

My motivation isn't to get her approval. It's more about avoiding a blow up while we are visiting. We do walk on eggshells around her just to avoid this- and we can do that with infrequent visits.

I will completely admit that I wanted my father's approval, and when he was alive at the time, I didn't say no to her due to him jumping in as rescuer to her against me. I was very approval seeking with him and this lasted until it there was no possibility of that ( after he passed away).

This may seem odd but understandable in the sense of religion. I do feel a religious obligation - and also understand that this obligation doesn't include allowing her to abuse me. But the value is for me, and in this way makes it not dependent on her approval.

[zachira]

My heart hurts reading about all the terrible abuse so many of us have suffered at the hands of our mother with BPD. I am wondering what are the best ways to compartmentalize the abuse so it just is not so overwhelming. Words cannot describe the sick feeling in the heart and soul we feel when the abuse just seems to get worse as our mothers age, or maybe we become more aware of the abuse and are less tolerant of it as we age as well. Having time limits for being in the presence of our mother with BPD and a specific calendar for visits may help us to feel safe for most of the time, and somehow less overwhelmed by the abuse. I only visited my mother during my summer vacation and at Christmas. I stayed at her house, so I could just walk out of the room when she became too overwhelming for me while at the same time actually having some pleasant moments with her. It became more difficult for me when my siblings would no longer let me stay at my mother's house because then I had to sit and visit with her, and there was nothing to do but listen to her invalidate me, which turned the visits into very short ones. The rest of the time, I was only in contact with my mother by phone, and promptly ended the phone call when it became abusive.
Now that my mother has passed away, I am more able to let the bad memories go, and remember her for the times when she was genuinely nice to me. I hope for those whose mothers are still alive, that death will ease the pain of the abuse, though I recognzise with some mothers with BPD, there was never a moment when the scapegoated child was ever treated well.

[Methuen]

NotWendy:
Ah yes, that all makes sense. Including the religion.  Totally get it. Intervening to offer the water so she doesn't enlist the kids as her caretakers was smart, and generous to your kids.

If only the rest of the world could understand what it's like.

[Koala323]

I will completely admit that I wanted my father's approval, and when he was alive at the time, I didn't say no to her due to him jumping in as rescuer to her against me. I was very approval seeking with him and this lasted until it there was no possibility of that ( after he passed away).

This resonates so much, but in a flipped way.  I’m an only kid and i have so many memories of my uBPD mom engaging me when she was fighting with my dad (no BPD, but abused by mom), and telling me how she couldn’t cope with Dad and how I had to calm _him_ down.  I’d go to dad, and give him a pep talk that just reinforced all this abuse - “you know how mom is. I think____ is what she wants.  Just do _____ and then she’ll be happy.”

[Notwendy]

Koala, you were enlisted into the Karpman triangle dynamics and the positions can change. From my own experience, BPD mom's preferred position was victim. Family members took on the other roles of persecutor and rescuer. My father's main role was rescuer and would bond with my mother against any perceived persecutor. However, I was often enlisted as rescuer too- If my mother was upset at my father, or a sibling. Sometimes we were all rescuers, tending to my mother's needs.

One problem with enlisting the children as rescuers is parentification, where we were expected to be the emotional  caretaker to the BPD parent, rather than the other way around.