When does anything get to be about my needs?

[Boogie74]

Everything I see tells me to “seek outside interests and support” and also to  “try not to take it personally”

When it becomes a situation of “It’s all about her or nothing” I begin to wonder when do I get my needs heard and attended to?   When she is incapable of empathy, when and where do I get to have my issues and problems be at least heard?   I have a therapist (which, in her opinion is useless unless I seek help for being a selfish narcissist- anything else is manipulating him), but I don’t have friends that I am willing to go and complain to about her.   There are no groups local to me about BPD.   All NAMI local resources have events and meetings during my working hours (I work evenings into early mornings during the week and the meetings and groups are for general mental illnesses- bipolar and schizophrenia and substance abuse).

As selfish as it sounds, when do I get it to be my turn to have my needs met?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pursuingJoy]

I get the frustration. I think it's something all of us have wrestled with.

Whether you're married or single, happy or not, in a relationship with a pwBPD, or anything in between, maturity means learning to take care of yourself. Even in the best of relationships, there are times that spouses just can't, so the other person has to 'up' their outside support mechanisms.

It can be really hard to find sources that understand BPD. Even some counselors aren't well informed. It's one of the reasons I love this site. And you have a therapist, which can be a huge source of support for you.

I don't get all of my support from one source. Support needs to be broken down into chunks, depending on what I need.

Do you need a mental break from the stress, a few hours to just not think about your problems? What are you hobbies, and who do you hang out with that makes you forget? Why don't you plan something you think would be fun to do?

Do you need endorphins and something to counter your physical sluggishness? Get outside and get some vitamin D from the sun, go for a walk or run and get your heart rate up.

Maybe you can't tell your friends every part of this, but can you share something? If you had a fight about something, can you tell them about the fight without going into BPD? It's important to let friends know that you're struggling.
 

[Boogie74]

I think one of the hardest things for me is that I want to be supportive and asking about her feelings (as much as I fear that will cause her to escalate her splitting and rages).  I have stopped after being told by her multiple times to stop adding that “You’re not my therapist!”

There seems to be no explaining to her that people that love each other listen to problems, ask questions and help each other find possible solutions.   She is convinced that any such help is tainted by conditions and that it’s condescending to help her (likely because I believe she KNOWS much of what I offer already yet fears that it isn’t helpful)

[pursuingJoy]

Is it possible that you're invalidating, even in your efforts to be supportive? If a pwBPD says, "I hate this, I can't do it" and your supportive response is, "Of course you can! You've got this!" it can actually be invalidating. In case it applies, check out this article and see if anything sticks out:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

I know I went through a phase where I had to grieve the relationship I wanted and accept the relationship I had.

The reality is that you have needs that deserve to be met and that's not selfish at all. The question is how to meet your needs in healthy ways. She can't be that empathetic, supportive partner you were hoping for. It doesn't necessarily doom the relationship. It definitely means resetting expectations and learning communication tools that deescalate.

[Boogie74]

Is it possible that you're invalidating, even in your efforts to be supportive? If a pwBPD says, "I hate this, I can't do it" and your supportive response is, "Of course you can! You've got this!" it can actually be invalidating. In case it applies, check out this article and see if anything sticks out:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

I wish it were that easy- I’m not big on saying that stuff.   I DO say (when she does something that I know is hard for her), “That’s good!   I’m happy for you!”

[pursuingJoy]

So how do your conversations go? Invalidated feelings often come back to haunt the relationship and result in projection.

"At its core, validation is about accepting, not judging others." How well are you doing accepting her the way she is?

[Boogie74]

So how do your conversations go? Invalidated feelings often come back to haunt the relationship and result in projection.

"At its core, validation is about accepting, not judging others." How well are you doing accepting her the way she is?

Most of the time, if she’s having a rough time, I tell her that I can’t imagine how rough it must be for her to feel that way; that anyone in her position would feel the same and be angry.   Her responses are often bulldozing past anything I say and repeating past transgressions.

[NonnyMouse]

I tell her ... that anyone in her position would feel the same and be angry.   

I think I've read something like that being recommended, and also that it's not good idea! I think it's sufficiently nuanced to be easily misinterpreted. "In her position..." can be seen as a criticism, ditto "be angry." I'd go with the simpler, "I don't blame you." Less is more!

[pursuingJoy]

Good suggestion, NonnyMouse. I'll be honest, I don't have BPD, but when I'm upset, I respond better to less. 

Before you validate, you want to learn how NOT to invalidate. A tiny bit of perceived invalidation can undo a mountain of validation. It's really nuanced and it's not something that comes naturally, it's a learned skill. Some feel like it's unfair to even learn - they're being asked to think ahead for the other person. I study it because it's a simple, effective tool I can use with anyone. Not invalidating came in really handy after a big recent blow up with my teenagers.

Her responses are often bulldozing past anything I say and repeating past transgressions.

Can you give us an example of a past transgression she brings up? How does this make you feel, and how do you typically respond?

[lenfan]

In reading this thread, I can't help but notice how the question went from dealing with your needs, Boogie, to trying to figure out how to validate your person with BPD. It's so insidious that they can make it being all about them, even when they're not in the conversation.

I'm resigning myself to the fact that my needs are not going to be met and I'm going to have to do without. Sorry to be a downer, but I think that's the boat many of us are in. We can get support in bits and pieces like one of the earlier posts said: Therapists, this website, maybe a few strategic conversations with well trusted friends with whom you can share part of the story,  self-help books,   diet, exercise, entertainment, art, hobbies, work,  spirituality, prayer, meditation, etc.  We take our pleasures and joys where we can find them, and life isn't so bad. But, an actual conversation that results in our pwbpd really making an effort to help us with our own lives' concerns  seems out of reach to me.

I was struck by a conversation I saw on the show "Young Sheldon"  many weeks ago. No one in the show seems to have bpd, but the storyline has involved a marriage falling apart gradually before our eyes, and one scene seemed pretty relevant to the situation we are in.  The H and W have had an argument. Both have legitimate complaints, no one is a villain.  The H, after taking quite a lot of incoming, angrily gives a litany of his complaints and disappointments in life.   The W responds in a  sarcastic tone with something to the effect of "I didn't know you were so miserable, why didn't you tell me?" He replies, "Because no one asked."

I identified with the H. Reading between the lines, I think you are there too. It struck me that I don't think my W has ever asked "How are you doing?"  in almost 30 years.  It's always her needs, complaints, etc.
So, here we are. They're not going to ask. If we bring anything up without them asking, they're going to make it about them. We have to take care of ourselves and not expect too much, if anything, in the way of support. I don't mean "take care of ourselves" in a selfish sense. I mean it in the self-reliant, almost stoic sense.  

[pursuingJoy]

In reading this thread, I can't help but notice how the question went from dealing with your needs, Boogie, to trying to figure out how to validate your person with BPD. It's so insidious that they can make it being all about them, even when they're not in the conversation.

I hear you lenfan. I had the same thoughts, even as I was writing. I was worried that it would come across as Boogie not doing enough, or 'if only you'd try this'...  That wasn't my intent and I'm sorry if I came across that way.

Learning the tools can be helpful but the reality is, coming to grips with the fact that your SO won't be the supportive partner you need just sucks.

I'm resigning myself to the fact that my needs are not going to be met and I'm going to have to do without. Sorry to be a downer, but I think that's the boat many of us are in. We can get support in bits and pieces like one of the earlier posts said: Therapists, this website, maybe a few strategic conversations with well trusted friends with whom you can share part of the story,  self-help books,   diet, exercise, entertainment, art, hobbies, work,  spirituality, prayer, meditation, etc.  We take our pleasures and joys where we can find them, and life isn't so bad. But, an actual conversation that results in our pwbpd really making an effort to help us with our own lives' concerns  seems out of reach to me.

We have to take care of ourselves and not expect too much, if anything, in the way of support. I don't mean "take care of ourselves" in a selfish sense. I mean it in the self-reliant, almost stoic sense.  

Well said.

[lenfan]

Thanks, PursuingJoy. (Yes, I was commenting on the irony of the situation where we always end up discussing the pwbpd, even when we are just trying to get our own needs met, not criticizing your helpful post.)

[waverider]

In reading this thread, I can't help but notice how the question went from dealing with your needs, Boogie, to trying to figure out how to validate your person with BPD. It's so insidious that they can make it being all about them, even when they're not in the conversation.
 

This is the crux of it.

If you have an issue, even with a cooperative pwBPD the first thing they require establishing is that its not their fault, you are not blaming them. This automatically causes you to manipulate your own reasoning and blame some third party issue before they will even listen.

The next problem is they will hijack your issue, often making you feel even worse, either so they can join in the pity parade directed away from them, or to demonstrate that because they are taking your dramas seriously you should take theirs seriously. A kind of projection lesson

If you do find someone else to pour out your thoughts to it only goes so far until you start flooding them and then despite their best intentions you just become a negative misery guts to be around.

You can also end up in a spiralling trying to "understand" this disorder, it can get you nowhere good if it occupies all your time. To recognise and acknowledge it is the best approach rather than getting drawn into endless attempts to fix it, when all you are doing in reality is slapping band aids on the symptoms. Life will just pass you by. you are not going to fix BPD its like trying to hold back the weather. You work with it and around and get on with life

The best long term solution to this for me was for my wife to no longer be the sole agenda in my life, but instead do a lot for me, by myself if necessary, even if on the outside it seems selfish. Yes they will resist this and you may have to chisel away one bit at a time. But what is "normal" can be shifted, just as your "normal" has been gradually shifted away from what it once was.

I came to the realization that my wife was simply wasting her life away one day at a time in constant drama loops, and by association I was being dragged around behind in her wake wasting mine by association. You have only a certain amount of time on this earth. What have you done and achieved over the last 5 years or so compared to what you could have done and achieved?

Even if you stay in a relationship part of you has to break away to do and achieve something, so that you personally have a sense of going forward, to do otherwise is a downward slide in to depression and loss of self respect.

Take care and avoid drowning in the misery of others, you are deserving of a quality of life too.

[once removed]

the reality is, if you love someone with bpd, then you love someone with special needs.

if you love dancing, to the point that its a vital part of your life, and your partner becomes crippled, you no longer have a dancing partner.

your loved one has certain limitations, as all people do. your loved ones are specific, and central to a disorder.

my point is not that you should simply set your needs aside, or that they dont matter. my point is that to love someone means to love them as they are, not who you want them to be.

in my relationships (friendships included), i like a shared sense of humor, some dark jokes and edgy stuff, lots of laughs. some of my friends arent funny. i also try to be a good ear and to help someone out when theyre going through a rough time...its part of how i tend to bond. some of my friends are not at all good, or are not necessarily reciprocal about that kind of thing. if i expect those things out of friends that cant give it, we both just end up resenting each other.

I have stopped after being told by her multiple times to stop adding that “You’re not my therapist!”

There seems to be no explaining to her that people that love each other listen to problems, ask questions and help each other find possible solutions.   She is convinced that any such help is tainted by conditions and that it’s condescending to help her

if she is telling you to stop this approach, you are wise to stop that approach. lots of well meaning, well intentioned, carefully said or done things, feel condescending to others.

with that said, its difficult to gleam how these conversations go between the two of you, and how you might shift your approach. can you give us an example of how these kinds of conversations go?

[Snowflake90]

As selfish as it sounds, when do I get it to be my turn to have my needs met?

If it's a need, why would it be selfish? (maybe you were ironic, so pardon me if I misunderstand) Would you think somebody who eats is a narc who only cares about himself?
We all have basic human needs, beyond food and sleep. That includes a hobby, some free time, etc. Also, having your individuality, and your own time is actually quite healthy to any relationship. No r/s should feel like you're being smothered. In my old r/s I had to fight for it or simply ignore my needs. Indeed, achieving my needs meant conflict.

If you mean needs as in emotional needs, then unfortunately BPD people are very limited in that area. My ex BPDw was very emotionally unavailable and most certainly unwilling to listen during an argument.
As tough as it sounds, what people are essentially telling you here is, she's not gonna change, not now, not 20 years down the road. Are you okay with that? Can you somehow circumvent the negative about her? Are her dysfunctions tolerable? Perhaps they're not so bad?
You can try couples counselling, although since BPD people lack accountability, you might as well throw stacks of cash outta the window.