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Author Topic: BPD mother, gifts and feeling worthy  (Read 494 times)
pursuingJoy
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« on: September 02, 2021, 07:21:13 AM »

Long story short, BPD MIL offered to buy her son, my H, a truck. Even though he and I agreed two years ago not to accept financial gifts from her, MIL offered the truck to H, saying, "but I don't want to upset PJ."

After advice from folks here and my counselor, I realized I had the option of digging in and positioning myself as persecutor standing in the way of their happiness, or I could flip the script and support H's desire for a truck, with agreed-upon boundaries in place. I settled on the latter.

He and I found a truck yesterday and called his mom to let her know.

She started getting stressed when he talked about getting a check, she said she didn't want to call the bank or drive to the bank by herself (she still drives and lives independently). He agreed to drive 2 hrs each way today to take her to the bank. He kind of rolled his eyes as he was sharing this with me. I was curious and asked, "I wonder why she didn't want to call the bank?" He said he didn't know, but she was giving him money, so helping her with the check was the least he could do. On its face this seems reasonable, but given their history, this is one more way to hook him, to condition him to feel obligated to her...just a little reminder that he owes her.

I talked to H last night about gifts. I noted that he has a hard time accepting gifts - really accepting gifts - from anyone, he always feels he owes them. He agreed and said that for some reason, he either doesn't feel worthy, or he feels he has to be worthy. He couldn't explain anything beyond repeating, "I just don't feel worthy." 

For those of you with BPD moms, can you identify and help me understand where the whole 'worthy' thing is coming from?

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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 09:30:50 AM »

Huh.  My uBPD mom can’t accept gifts either.  Her response is ALWAYS to gift something back .  It could be a recycled gift, or she could bake buns for them.  Something like that.  A gift ALWAYS requires a settling of the score.  Worthiness could be at the root of that.  

My concern with the truck is that its not simply a gift, but that she expects something in return, now or in the future.  I doubt it’s premeditated, but the truck could still come up as leverage in a future dysregulation.  That’s just based on my experience with my mom. Hopefully this situation is different.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 09:36:56 AM by Methuen » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2021, 09:54:09 AM »

Children with dysfunctional parents often end up with a core negative belief of "I'm not good enough". Additionally, some adult survivors of childhood trauma have trouble accepting gifts or compliments because it triggers (consciously or not) the feeling that the gift or compliment is manipulative.

I think the answer is tied to obligation. It seems that his mother's ACE in the hole with him is obligation and guilt. He drove four hours to go to the bank with her because "she's giving him money, so helping her is the least he can do". Obligation.

It's likely that the dynamics between them has created a tendency for him to focus on all the ways he doesn't or hasn't measured up in his life, and he most likely does not understand that his value and worth is not tied to his performance. I seriously doubt he was ever told as a child that he was loved just because he existed.

When you have a dysfunctional parent who sends the message that your value and worth is determined by how well you please them or gain their approval, and if you are emotionally manipulated into consistently proving your value to someone through appeasing, and guilt and obligation are used as tools to get the dysfunctional parent's needs met, you don't have a strong sense of self worth just for being you.

So much is tied up in this. Identity issues, negative core messages from childhood, immersion in unhealthy family dynamics from childhood, and the traumatized inner child "running the self" without the "adult self" being in control.
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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2021, 03:58:48 PM »

A gift ALWAYS requires a settling of the score.  Worthiness could be at the root of that.  

I think you're right, M. Isn't that interesting. With H, settling the score will likely be spending more time with her. She will start to have health issues and bad days ahead, mark my words. This was a deposit on what she will withdraw.

My concern with the truck is that its not simply a gift, but that she expects something in return, now or in the future.  I doubt it’s premeditated, but the truck could still come up as leverage in a future dysregulation.

It will 100% come up as leverage. In my opinion, refusing to call the bank and obligating him to come visit her and drive her there - it has BEGUN.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

I thought long and hard about how to handle this, and between folks here and my counselor, decided to be excited for H, but agree on boundaries with him.

1. The title had to be in his name, her name could not be on the title. We've got that covered.
2. It needed to be paid outright, not a loan that she was responsible for paying month to month. Check.
3. We took it (kind of) slowly and gave her time to really consider what this meant. She's changed her mind on stuff like this before.
4. I and H agree that we don't 'owe' her anything for this gift. She will absolutely come to collect, and when she does, this conversation will come back around. The point with talking about it was really to start a dialogue with H that we can hopefully sort through and bring to light in counseling.

 
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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2021, 04:14:19 PM »

"I'm not good enough"

the feeling that the gift or compliment is manipulative.

It's likely that the dynamics between them has created a tendency for him to focus on all the ways he doesn't or hasn't measured up in his life, and he most likely does not understand that his value and worth is not tied to his performance. I seriously doubt he was ever told as a child that he was loved just because he existed.

your value and worth is determined by how well you please them or gain their approval

you don't have a strong sense of self worth just for being you.

Nailed him with all of this. Great write up, IAR. Very helpful.

He finds 90% of his self-worth through his success and accomplishments and ability to make loved ones happy. He brought up self-worth in the conversation last night, how you have to find your self-worth inside of you. I think he does work to find some within himself, but it's almost like that's what he goes to after he's allowed all of the other sources to deplete him. I don't think he has any idea how much or how his upbringing influenced him.

I think the answer is tied to obligation. It seems that his mother's ACE in the hole with him is obligation and guilt. He drove four hours to go to the bank with her because "she's giving him money, so helping her is the least he can do". Obligation.

This. Listen, I thought she'd give it a second before she laid it on thick. Didn't wait at all, she just slapped some PB and J on that bread and monched away.
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2021, 04:37:29 PM »

That was a truckload of FOG!

I also understand the issue with not feeling worthy. Anything from my mother comes with obligation and strings attached. It's hard to feel worthy when a gift isn't just from the heart.

She played that bank snafu just right.
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2021, 05:08:11 PM »

She probably didn't wait a second because this is her way of interacting. I doubt it's calculated to the fine tuning of timing: "I better hold off on pulling the heartstrings for a hot second or they'll see right through me".

It's her style of relating to her son. This is their dynamic and it works for her. To wait would mean she has awareness of the manipulation, and she likely doesn't...at least not at a level she can't bury deep within.

She only knows that this works to get needs met, and those needs are more pressing than precision timing to "know when to hold 'em". She'll play that ACE as frequently as it wins.
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2021, 08:54:04 PM »

Hi PJWelcome new member (click to insert in post)

I really like the approach you took in working with your counselor and DH to come to a place of healthy boundary setting through this whole situation. Really, it's so awesome!  Way to go! (click to insert in post) Sometimes (well quite often actually) I look at life so very black and white due to being raised by an uBPDm, and I forget that there are other healthy options out there.

IAR did a great job of explaining the whole belief system we adult kids of a pwBPD have had thoroughly engrained into our heads, that we are not worthy of anything. To grow up believing that you are the cause or source of your pwBPD's pain causes you to do anything to help them feel better, yet it never erases the core belief within you. So often this carries over to the rest of our life too. In my experience it takes a lot of work to get to a semi healthy place with small consistent steps to overcome some of it. T has helped keep my focus in a much better place.

I hope that things go better than expected with the truck and that DH is able to enjoy it. You may want to print out that list of boundaries and put it with the truck title for future reference.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Wools
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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2021, 12:44:21 PM »

She played that bank snafu just right.

I am lowkey impressed at her ability to play the game. Like IAR said, it's likely not personal or with ill-intent, just 74 years of fine-tuning methods to get her needs met.

I enjoy watching Everybody Loves Raymond. (Marie Barone, Raymond's mom, is my MIL. Even H said it one time, followed by, "But it's out of love." Marie dotes on Raymond.) In last night's episode one of Ray's young kids outed the entire family at school in a book he wrote called, "The Angry Family." The family went to counseling. Marie told the counselor that her DIL Debra, Raymond's wife, was the root of the problem. Marie's own husband said, "You wanna know the problem? Debra married Raymond and Marie never got over it." The whole crowd went, "Ooo." I noticed H didn't laugh at that one.

She'll play that ACE as frequently as it wins.

Exactly. And I get that she will (and should) 'win' sometimes. It's not a competition. The ONLY thing I'm asking H is that we communicate and proceed with mindful intent and reduce the number of times he responds out of guilt and obligation.

I really like the approach you took in working with your counselor and DH to come to a place of healthy boundary setting through this whole situation. Really, it's so awesome!  Way to go! (click to insert in post) Sometimes (well quite often actually) I look at life so very black and white due to being raised by an uBPDm, and I forget that there are other healthy options out there.

Thanks Wools.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) It's maybe a testament to how we need each other, right? I wouldn't have reached that conclusion on my own. It's ok to need help.

In my experience it takes a lot of work to get to a semi healthy place with small consistent steps to overcome some of it.

I've been thinking a lot about this, how the scars stay with you. Sometimes it feels like the more I learn, the more overwhelmed I feel at how much I don't know, or how far I have to go.

You may want to print out that list of boundaries and put it with the truck title for future reference.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

lollllllll I love you guys. I really do. *prints boundaries*
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EyesUp
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2021, 10:55:47 AM »

Identity issues, negative core messages from childhood, immersion in unhealthy family dynamics from childhood, and the traumatized inner child "running the self" without the "adult self" being in control.

For me, it's the last word here that nails it.

In my case, the upwPD is all about control...

There can be no simple of act of kindness or generosity - in either direction - instead, it's instantly reframed in terms of reciprocity. Control.

There is no ability to have a discussion about the behavior of parents or children - instead, it's instantly reframed in terms of quid pro quos, and frequently personalized in terms of criticism, insults, and/or punishments (a precedent to or corollary from "deserving" or "worthiness") - often when none of the above were intended or objectively present. Control.

Gifts are usually loaded with expectation. There is never enough recognition or acknowledgement. How can one be truly deserving of a gift that's not freely given? That sense of lack of worthiness is the intuitive sense of reality hanging on by a thread - "I don't deserve this" = "on some level I know this isn't really a gift."  Control.

Control itself is not necessarily a bad or unhealthy thing - for instance, it can be how we protect our children and people we care about from avoidable harm, or how we influence others in constructive, collaborative ways.

Unfortunately, control can easily be deployed in unhealthy ways, loaded with expectation and as noted by others - driven by FOG.
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pursuingJoy
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2021, 09:17:54 AM »

For me, it's the last word here that nails it.

In my case, the upwPD is all about control...

Gifts are usually loaded with expectation.

Yes. In my case there's plausible deniability because it's not an obvious a one-for-one. MIL doesn't outright say, "I did this for you, so you must..." The debt is always implied. Gifts trigger waif mode. I hear more comments like, "she fell twice and neighbors had to help her" , "she's forgetting things all the time now" , "mom hasn't left the house in a week, she quit her exercise class" , "mom's trying to _______ but she misses dad and is so worried about what he'd think."

Yesterday as we were sitting in the office waiting for the guy at the dealership to finish paperwork on the truck, H brought up his mom's future: her money --> how she's planning ahead --> her options, including moving near us. I told him yesterday that I wanted to ensure we were making the decision as a team, and that I felt it was important to engage in counseling about boundaries as a preparatory measure. I also asked if he felt he owed it to her to move her down here because she gave him the money for the truck. Of course he denied it - I knew he would - but I wanted to keep it in the light. It's not a coincidence that he brought it up at the dealership.

What will happen is that the moment she feels he's pulling away or denying her something, she'll get sad and quiet then ask, "How's the truck?" That's all it will take to pull him in.

Good news: he said his mom probably has BPD.
Also good news: the truck he found was more expensive than anticipated, he is paying about 40% of the cost. She offered to pay the full price and HE DECLINED. (Do you hear the angels singing? I do. I hear angels.)

I know I vent here a lot but I do feel for him. Undoing 47 years of conditioning isn't going to happen overnight. Thanks for your patience as I work through this.

Control itself is not necessarily a bad or unhealthy thing - for instance, it can be how we protect our children and people we care about from avoidable harm, or how we influence others in constructive, collaborative ways.

Thanks for this, EyesUp. Very centering and reasonable. Sometimes I feel guilty about using my knowledge to route the conversation and make it go in a different direction. I guess it's good to question our own motives and maintain a sense of humility and recognize that we, too, could use our knowledge for ill intent.
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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2021, 06:06:10 AM »

Excerpt
Do you hear the angels singing? I do. I hear angels.) 


I wondered why I was hearing the Hallelujah Chorus this morning.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

 Way to go! (click to insert in post)
Wools
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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2021, 08:17:46 AM »

What will happen is that the moment she feels he's pulling away or denying her something, she'll get sad and quiet then ask, "How's the truck?" That's all it will take to pull him in.
wow, can I relate.
      
Good news: he said his mom probably has BPD.  
 Hark the herald angels sing!

A huge leap of progress!  Way to go! (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2021, 10:44:24 AM »


I wondered why I was hearing the Hallelujah Chorus this morning.  Smiling (click to insert in post)



         Hark the herald angels sing!


 Way to go! (click to insert in post) indeed,  Way to go! (click to insert in post) indeed Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2021, 04:00:56 PM »


So...did the truck get bought?

How much was the split for the truck?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2021, 07:51:15 AM »

Yes, the truck was purchased, 60% donated, 40% purchased. Nothing major has happened.

It triggered MIL's waifiness. Depression, no friends, refuses to leave the house, etc. H is worried about her and I know it weighs heavily on him. I'm trying to support him by occasionally listening and empathizing but also staying focused on other things and not putting more energy into their dynamic.

He told me the other day that he tells everyone that his mom bought him the truck, he doesn't care what they think. I reminded him that he paid almost half, and he said, yes but I couldn't have bought it without her.
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2021, 09:28:29 AM »

Strange that the truck purchase should trigger waifishness...

Do you think she set the purchase up as a second attempt to move closer to you, or even into your house?
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2021, 09:43:03 AM »

Do you think she set the purchase up as a second attempt to move closer to you, or even into your house?

100%. In the office, while we were purchasing the truck, H brought up his mom's future and care. I asked directly if he felt that he owed it to her to move her down near us. He denied it and I now have his denial on the table.
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2021, 12:03:42 PM »

He denied it and I now have his denial on the table.

Very wise move.  Don't let him off the hook on this.

Best,

FF
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