We made it out

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

We made it out.
We are safe.

Talking to two more legal options Wednesday and Friday.

[Guts42]

We made it out.
We are safe.

Talking to two more legal options Wednesday and Friday.

[kells76]

Thanks for the update; glad you all are OK. Wishing your family peace.

[formflier]

Thanks for the update.  What is your plan for the next day or two?

I want to double down on one thing Skip said.  If any of your actions is to "teach her" or "fix her"...   be careful.

If you are going to start calling 911 or non-emergency police number when Suicide threats/ideations are verbalized...I would encourage you to start doing it each and every time.  I tend to lean towards calling because I'm not trained to assess and when I was in the Navy 100% of the Sailors I put on suicide watch (a handful) are still alive today.

The non-emergency call for a porch chat is an interesting idea and explaining yourself to the non-emergency number could result in other contacts or ideas you didn't know about.



Best,

FF

[Skip]

I think it would be smart to call an attorney and get advice what you need to do to be sure this doesn't end up with a SWAT team on the aunts front lawn or an Amber alert flashing on the interstate (I'm exaggerating).  

You don't want her freaking out and calling the area hospitals looking for all of you.

A  lawyer will tell you who to notify (or step in for you) with respect to local police, school, CPS. He can also notify her for you.

Be careful.

[ForeverDad]

What qualifies as an emergency situation?  When it happens or as soon as possible afterward.

When is it not an emergency?  Days, weeks or months later.

For example, if you call emergency responders on their emergency line and said, "Last year my ex... ." they'd tell you "Then it's not an emergency, call us back when it is an ongoing emergency."

The system is set up to respond quicker when the emergency responders are involved.  The longer the delay the harder to get action.  That's the price of being a Nice Guy or Nice Gal and waiting to see what happens.  Delay (and the resumed contact) makes the urgency seem less.

Skip's reminder that this could become a huge incident is appropriate.  My experience... I was in the middle of a divorce, with a temp order.  I wanted to take my then preschooler on vacation with me.  I sent her an adequate notice well in advance.  She said No.  My lawyer agreed it was a notice and not a request and said "have a nice time."  Ex couldn't do anything at first since I left while it was my weekend.  But Monday night she got the police involved.  By then I was a few states away.  Then five states away, my lawyer.  After my return I found out that she had gone to the sheriff's office and tried to get an Amber Alert declared.  Fortunately, the deputy wisely phrased his answer, according to his incident report, "It doesn't meet the requirements of an Amber Alert."  How could she argue with guidelines?  Oh, she could, she then made a complaint and then filed a grievance against the investigator and my lawyer told me she (the investigator) was exceedingly peeved at my ex.

[kells76]

Some members (though with older kids than yours, if I remember correctly) had the kids talk on the phone to the other parent after leaving. Run this by your DV/shelter team to see if it is an appropriate way to keep the temperature down. If their mom presses for info about "where are you" then it may not be, unless you can carefully steer the conversation away from that.

Does your W know where your aunt's house is?

[Guts42]

We are out and safe.  My W knows where we are staying and even sent the local PD to investigate. They were less than pleased when I informed them of the situation and that I've already engaged the PD from our town as well as the outreach program.

My W was committed.  I don't know many details other than she's out.  The night before she was released she called me demanding that I agree to a family call.  I did not agree.  She said she loved me and missed me and reassured me we were going to be okay.  I didn't say anything back.

Shortly after she was released my W was served with divorce papers and a restraining order.  I feel awful about it but it had to be done.  We were granted the restraining order within a few hours of submitting it (ex parte).

CPS came by, the agent was wonderful.  She pointed out that this is my W's third CPS investigation and her second in just a few months.  My D finally got to talk to an agent alone.  I heard just a part of it as I left the room.  I'm glad I was already heading out because I started to cry.

We have our hearing in a few weeks.  Probably time to move this over to the other board about moving on... anyone been through this?

[GaGrl]

Not completely similar, but...

My husband was posted to an Army base 100 miles from the house where his then-wife (the Ex) insisted on living (she refused to go to multiple postings with him over his career). He was home only from Friday evenings to Sunday evenings -- his uBPD/NPD wife had the children during the week.

The oldest child was an adopted niece of his wife's family in SE Asia, who the Ex insisted should be raised in the tradition of their country. At a certain age (mid-teens), girls are supposed to wear their long hair up in a bun or twist. Of course, daughter was leaving every morning and letting her hair down on the bus before getting to school. Ex caught her one day, argued, went into a rage, held the daughter down, and chopped off her hair with a pair of kitchen scissors. The school counselor got involved, and it became a DFCS case (Dept. of Family and Children Services). My H had to take leave for interviews and make assurances that the family situation would be monitored.

Ex was arrested at least three times for violent behavior toward her boyfriends -- once with a tire iron, and twice with a gun.

The DV and rages don't subside -- they escalate.

You're doing the right thing.

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm glad you are safe and that your D got to speak her truth to someone without hindrance.

As GaGrl said, my experience is not completely similar, but I do know what it's like to leave an abusive relationship and have to get legal protection to keep your kids safe from the other parent. I felt immensely guilty, both for what the kids experienced and the perceived betrayal of my ex.

The guilt about my ex subsided after a while. The guilt about what my kids experienced has lasted much, much longer.

It's better you did this now before things got much worse.

[Guts42]

Thanks all.

That's inline with what a friend said just the other day.  It was a little chilling.
She said, "by acting now, you averted a catastrophe."
That's how I feel now, like I stopped something even worse from happening.
Something just clicked that first night I tried to leave.  It became very clear that her DV tendencies were just going to get worse.

The attorney I hired has been absolutely great.  I think I ended up interviewing 4 in total.

[ForeverDad]

Be aware that despite her looking bad (mental health history included) she is likely to allege some nasty things in an attempt to make you look worse than her.

My ex didn't have any known mental health history when we separated and so what I said versus her claims didn't gain traction for more than a year.  The professionals have a head start in your case.

While no one wants to look bad, whether reasonably normal or not, an acting-out disordered person will feel justified to clutch at any past incidents (or invent them) and frame them in a way to make you cringe and expecting you to retreat back to the status of past years.  The phrase is extinction bursts.

You've done well thus far, but the test of fire is not yet over.  A warning of sorts.  Your worst enemy may very well be your Nice Guy inclinations.  While of course you mustn't be retaliatory or spiteful, beware of moments where you feel you need to be "fair" or hide some of the misbehaviors.  A good perspective to have is to put your children's interests ahead of hers.  She's an adult, the children aren't and they need a stable parent's protection to the extent possible.

Did you see the police intervention of Gabby Petito on August 12 in Utah?  She failed to reveal the full story, or at least enough to defend herself.  A witness reported she was slapped and hit but she was the one who apologized to the officers.  She was distraught but shouldered too much of the blame for the altercation.  It's looking more and more like her life problems were situational, she shouldn't have shouldered the lion's share of the blame.

[Guts42]

Thanks ForeverDad, good to know.

My D suspects divorce (and has even said "I'm fine with that so long as I don't ever have to live with Mommy"... which is what I heard her say to the CPS agent as I left the room) but my son (who is younger) has no idea as far as I can tell.  The emotional abuse doesn't seem to have been targeted at him as blatantly but my based on the trend it was only a matter of time, especially as he got older and more independent.  I haven't told them either way, I keep telling them both that their mom loves them very much but she needs some space to figure out how to deal with her really big emotions and thoughts that sometimes make her really angry.

My son does admit to his mom "being really scary" to some people but never anyone he thinks would get his mom in trouble.  It's always a casual, matter of fact tone.  A few weeks ago he admitted to not wanting to talk about it with me because he didn't want anyone to get mad at him.

I don't want to cut her out from their lives but I need to know they'll be safe and right now it just isn't - and it seems law enforcement, the hospital, CPS, and the local court agrees with me.

Something really positive I wanted to share!  The same day we left I called and made an appointment for my D to see her favorite therapist!  The one my W fired.  My D was jumping up and down when I told her.  She gets to see her soon.  I have my son on the books to see his newer therapist - I've shared this info with our CPS agent as well.

[formflier]

Your kids are very very lucky to have you in their corner.  Keep up the good work...I know this is such a hard season.

Is there any chance that your daughter and son can have same therapist...the one your D really likes?  A good connection with a T is worth it's weight in gold!

Keep putting one foot in front of the other...

Best,

FF

[Guts42]

Thank you so much! It's tough but I keep telling myself the only things that matter and just focus on those:

1) I am never going back to that abusive relationship
2) My kids are amazing humans who deserve the world

[Ozzie101]

Guts, i haven’t posted much but I have followed your story with interest and I just wanted to say how glad I am you and your children are safe. What you are doing is very brave and definitely sounds like the right thing (especially for the kids). There will still be tough times but hold on to your strength and your desire to do right by your kids. I admire your strength. 

[I Am Redeemed]

How did your wife come to be committed?

Has CPS given you any information about what next steps will be (things they want you to do or keep doing, things they will be asking your wife to do, visitation with mom and kids?)

Is the hearing about the CPS case?

I'm glad you got your daughter back in with her favorite therapist. It takes time to build trust with a client, especially a kid, and having a good therapeutic relationship already established will be a great support for your daughter.

[formflier]

How did your wife come to be committed?
 

No rush...but I certainly would be interested in reading about your journey with as many details as you can at turning points.

Sometimes planning your "trip" into the future is helped by clearly laying out the past, especially when you reached a "no more"...or just "no...under no circumstances  no"  kinda of place.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

You are on the right board - this is divorce and custody.

A lot is happening. We are here for you.

[livednlearned]

I keep telling them both that their mom loves them very much but she needs some space to figure out how to deal with her really big emotions and thoughts that sometimes make her really angry

Kids are pretty matter of fact about right and wrong. "It's not ok when people yell at me or you." And "My job is to keep you safe" sends clear messages that meet them where they're at.

Otherwise the message they learn is that "really big emotions" = love. Says dad.

You are teaching them something new: in this family, we take care of ourselves. Watch how I do it.

It's ok to take the long view on healing starting with "it's ok to feel sad/angry. I feel those things too."

Eddy's book Don't Alienate the Kids about raising emotionally resilient kids when one parent has BPD is one of the best.

[Guts42]

That's an excellent point! (About "big emotions= love")
I'll be adding that book to my shopping cart.

I've avoided saying anything to them about their mom beyond "shes loves you but needs some space" but I think it might be time.

I wonder when I should tell them about the divorce. My thought is one thing at a time.  Let's get through this hearing and then we'll talk about the future.

[GaGrl]

When you get through the hearing, you can tell the children that the judge has put A, B, and C In place to ensure you are all safe. If they want to know what happens next, you can honestly say that much depends on your wife's willingness to get help.

At some point, your wife's behavior probably will be such that you can tell them that the improvements that needed to be made were not acco.p!ished, and the way forward -- for everyone to have a safe life and be their best selves -- is to move to a divorce. By that time, they will have had enough time to relax into you as the primary parent.

[ForeverDad]

I keep telling them both that their mom loves them very much but...

It is not up to you to defend their mother.  That's on her.  One theme I mention is that us Nice Guys and Nice Gals have wonderful qualities such as a sense of fairness.  However, in our tough situations, we have to beware we don't abuse that fine quality.  One consequence is that it could make it easier for us to sabotage ourselves.  This is not the time to try to be overly fair.

If you're mixing love with unbalanced behaviors then that can be very confusing to children.  So I'd suggest you dial back that 'love' defense of their mother.  (Don't feel too bad, many newer members have had the same impulses.)

[GaGrl]

My husband did the same "your mother loves you but she has problems" conversation with his kids. It confused them.

Maybe just say something like... "Your mother has emotional problems that get in the way of taking care of you properly."