Why do I feel like the unreasonable one?

[sklamath]

Hey, all. It's been a while, but I'm hoping to get your advice--not just on what to do, but also how to think about my current situation.

Background on uBPD Mom & eDad: I moved from no-contact to low-contact when my father had a health scare (he's doing great now). It appears Dad is only "allowed" to talk on speakerphone while my mom is present. She usually talks over him and me in the background while on these calls, unless she's pretending not to be there. Though my dad is easier to talk to, I do not trust either of my parents with personal information, and mom in particular is generally not that interested; when she does get interested, it doesn't feel good.Rather, she likes information so that 1) she can re-share it for attention from others...bonus points if there's drama or tragedy, or she gets to play the victim, and 2) so that she does not feel embarrassed when others know more than she does. Other than that, she is not interested in an authentic relationship. And I no longer have a fantasy or desire that we'll have an authentic relationship. My mother has been disinterested and/or careless with personal information I've shared with her in the past, and I don't trust her.

Just as access to my father is monitored by my mother, so is access to my grandmother, who has no phone. Her care facility began using an app during COVID to allow contact with family, and that was the first time in years that I was able to call her. I'm also able to share pictures, and with her dementia, this is one of the more meaningful ways I can connect with her. But the nature of the app, or at least the way that my relative who is administering access has been handling it, is that all other family members or friends are also connected by default. So I've removed my mom and several others who I do not have much of a relationship with. I am not connected to mom or these family members on any other social media platforms, either.

I shared some photos with my grandmother for the first time last week, naturally she mentioned it to my mother, and now dad is messaging me asking for access. I'm annoyed with myself for being worked up about it, but...I am. Here's the full range of options I can see:

1) Disregard my boundaries and spidey sense and just share the pictures. It's just pictures. And I avoid conflict.
2) Not responding--not a long term solution.
3) Say no, without providing justification.
4) Say no, and say why.

1 and 2 aren't viable options, though 2 is where I am at temporarily, only because I haven't taken any action yet. Is 3 the "don't JADE" response, or will it get pushed to 4 anyways? And if I go with 4, how do I translate what I feel into something they can hear? Is it sufficient to say, "I love you guys, and I share the information I am comfortable with. But I'm not able to pretend that I trust you"? Is that saying too little? Too much?

[Methuen]

I shared some photos with my grandmother for the first time last week, naturally she mentioned it to my mother, and now dad is messaging me asking for access. I'm annoyed with myself for being worked up about it, but...I am.

Are you annoyed with yourself, or at the situation you find yourself in?  Let's deconstruct this.  You shared pics virtually with your grandmother living in a care home, which is a totally normal thing to do.  It's healthy for both you and your grandmother.  She feels remembered and appreciates the contact, and you get connectivity with a family member you care about.  Don't be annoyed with yourself for doing that, because your reasons are authentic.  Grandmother mentions the photos to one of your parents (whom you have boundaries with), and dad is now messaging you for the same photos (possibly even at mother's behest).  As you are low contact, this feels controlling.  They are pushing boundaries.  That is probably what's irritating.  Instead of being annoyed with yourself for a good deed, focus on strengthening your boundaries with this situation you find yourself in now.

I use your option #2 a lot - not responding temporarily.  I find for myself that "buying time" often brings me clarity later, when I am feeling better.  In the moment when I am irritated, hurt, or angry, I can't think well.  Sometimes I don't respond for a few hours, or maybe even a couple of days.  Like you say, it's unlikely to be a long term solution as they are unlikely "to forget about it", since it's a way they have of exercising control over your choices, by using obligation and guilt to request/demand the same pics you showed your grandma.  But at least you buy yourself some time, to come up with a best response.

And I no longer have a fantasy or desire that we'll have an authentic relationship. My mother has been disinterested and/or careless with personal information I've shared with her in the past, and I don't trust her.

You have your reasons for this.  So your option #1 doesn't seem like a good option.  If you break your own boundary on this, they will keep pushing on other things, because this time worked (they got what they wanted).  It's psych 101: positive reinforcement.  I wouldn't go down that road.  You have your reasons for your current boundaries.

the way that my relative who is administering access has been handling it, is that all other family members or friends are also connected by default.

I'm interested in this app used by the care home.  Can you set up your own communication with the care home, rather than being included in the family group set up by this other relative? I would ask someone at the home. The care home shouldn't care one way or another.  If they were to inquire (which they likely won't), you can just cite privacy and leave it at that. See what they say. 

Now that you know your grandmother (with dementia) shares anything you tell her to other family members, you also know they may be plying her for information about you.  Let them.  You still control what you share with your grandmother, but at least you can maintain a relationship with her virtually if you choose.

[Notwendy]

I understand how you feel. My relationship with my parents has been similar. When I spoke to my (now deceased) father on the phone, BPD mother listened in on the extension. Anything I said to him or emailed to him was shared with her.

I don't share any personal information with my mother about myself or my children. I too have given up any hope for an authentic relationship with her. She's too affected by her own BPD. We do talk though and if I share anything it's something I would not care would be in the news. "Grandkid's soccer team won today" type of stuff.

If she does find out something personal, she seems quite pleased- like a cat who just pounced on a mouse and now can swing it by the tail. The victorious "gotcha" look is quite unsettling.

I feel the same way about her getting pictures. I do send her some. She likes the idea of being a grandmother, but my kids ( now older) are not close to her. She always wants more though and when I send them, it feels creepy somehow, as it feels like supplying her emotional cravings- which it is, and it's a creepy feeling. I also think "what's the big deal, sending picture to a grandmother is normal but the relationship isn't normal.

I would say keep your boundary whatever it is, because whatever you do is not going to be enough. I just sent some pictures and BPD mom asked me to send them again. She can find them in her email just as easy. It's that if I send them, I meet her needs again.

For me, I complied a lot for the sake of my relationship with my father. I see now that she basically controlled him. I wanted his approval but had to submit to her to get some of that. Didn't matter how much I complied,  one "no" is not acceptable. I say - say "no" at whatever seems best for you. They will think you are unreasonable regardless.

[GaGrl]

It sounds like you need to craft a way to say "No" that will end the issue.

You can indeed say "No" with no explanation (it is, after all, a complete sentence!). Would that end the conversation? Probably not.

Are you clear on why you don't want to sharebphotos? Is it solely because your mother has shared without your permission before? If so, you can use that.

"I will send you any photos I don't mind being shared."

"I'm not comfortable sharing photos and not knowing how they will be shared."

"I've had photos shared without my permission before, so I'm keeping the app private."

 Thoughts?

[Methuen]

"I will send you any photos I don't mind being shared."

"I'm not comfortable sharing photos and not knowing how they will be shared."

"I've had photos shared without my permission before, so I'm keeping the app private."

Love these, if they are needed, especially the last one.  She wouldn't understand, as I have doubts that people without boundaries can even comprehend or see the problem (from our point of view).  But it's a simple explanation, a natural consequence, and it reaffirms a boundary all wrapped up in one neat little package.  Brilliant.

[Notwendy]

Reasonable or not may not be the best parameter. My BPD mother pushes the boundaries with a series of "reasonable" requests and then does the unreasonable.  Since it's been a sequence of reasonable small requests, saying "no" to one more prompts her to then be "so terribly hurt that you won't do this one little thing" for your mother.

One example is that we were coming to see her. We knew we would be getting in late  and told her we'd drop in to say hello for a quick visit( we don't stay with her) but that we wanted to get some rest afterwards. She offered to provide the food for dinner when we arrived. I got a bit concerned when I learned she was going to have a fancy restaurant supply it, but since I agreed to it, I didn't say a lot. Then I learned she was going to "invite a few friends" and I understood the real reason behind the offer to supply food. Now, we were going to be tired and not in the mood for a dinner with guests and we also were going to see them the next day.

It is not unreasonable for someone to offer to feed their family when they travel to see you so that didn't sound unreasonable. The fancy food seemed a bit off- as we didn't really need that- a sandwich tray would have been fine. Inviting guests when we specifically said we'd drop in for a brief visit crossed the line. Since she'd have paid for the food, we'd  felt obligated to not say anything when the guests came.

So I called the restaurant and there was still time to cancel the order, and I did. I then told her- no food, no guests. When we got there, all the placed to eat were closed except for fast food which we got ourselves.

Now, I don't agree to anything she offers to pay for.

[Notwendy]

And the response “ you are denying me the pleasure of providing  dinner for my family “

[sklamath]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies! Seriously, I can't tell you how helpful additional perspective is to break me out of my own patterns and let think about things a little differently.

Are you annoyed with yourself, or at the situation you find yourself in?  Let's deconstruct this.  You shared pics virtually with your grandmother living in a care home, which is a totally normal thing to do.  It's healthy for both you and your grandmother.  She feels remembered and appreciates the contact, and you get connectivity with a family member you care about.  Don't be annoyed with yourself for doing that, because your reasons are authentic.  Grandmother mentions the photos to one of your parents (whom you have boundaries with), and dad is now messaging you for the same photos (possibly even at mother's behest).  As you are low contact, this feels controlling.  They are pushing boundaries.  That is probably what's irritating.  Instead of being annoyed with yourself for a good deed, focus on strengthening your boundaries with this situation you find yourself in now.

YES. All of this. I'm also annoyed that my mom (it's 100% at her behest) feels entitled to anything I've shared with my grandma. I'm annoyed that my mom can't fathom that I would have a relationship with my grandma that doesn't directly involve her. Long before my grandma was ever in a care facility, my mom would control (or try to control) my access to her.

Now that you know your grandmother (with dementia) shares anything you tell her to other family members, you also know they may be plying her for information about you.  Let them.  You still control what you share with your grandmother, but at least you can maintain a relationship with her virtually if you choose.

I'm sure my grandma will mention it and my mother will interfere, even if there is some alternative to the app. Heck, mom will probably just help herself to the tablet if/when she's able to visit my grandma. As for the app and its sharing settings, I'm actually OK with the idea that as a vulnerable adult my grandma may not have private 1:1 electronic communication.

I just feel really icky sharing pictures of my exchange students with my mom, specifically. She has not met them, will not meet them, has shown no interest in my relationship with them, or what hosting means to me. The fact that my grandma with dementia asks more engaged questions says something. Granted, depending on the day they might be the same 3 questions asked over and over, but somehow that still feels more authentic? 

It sounds like you need to craft a way to say "No" that will end the issue.

You can indeed say "No" with no explanation (it is, after all, a complete sentence!). Would that end the conversation? Probably not.

Are you clear on why you don't want to share photos? Is it solely because your mother has shared without your permission before? If so, you can use that.

I do want the "no" to end the issue, but I know it's unlikely to be to end--or to end without her sulking. I need to be OK with feeling like the jerk. The "why" probably sounds unreasonable...and it might feel easier to say no if it was that she was re-sharing the photos. But it's less tangible than that. The people in these pictures are not people my mother knows, and it does not feel good or right to me to share them with someone I don't have a real relationship with. I cannot bear to share something meaningful with her, only to have her react with disinterest or obsessing and needing to make herself the center of experiences she was not part of. It always seems to be one or the other. These are my good memories, and I do not wish to give her the opportunity to suck the joy out of them.

One of the things that seemed to trigger my mom's major rage incident 3-1/2 years ago--the one that drove me to NC--was when my mom saw me sharing pictures of my exchange student with my grandma. The pictures had been posted to social media, where my mom had had every opportunity to look at them; whereas Grandma had no phone or computer at the time, so I had shown them to her on my phone. After a day of dumping her trauma on me, talking over me, getting upset each time I asserted myself or expressed a different opinion, and changing the subject each time I tested the waters to talk about my experience with my exchange kiddo...I had had the audacity to connect with someone else. After 2 hours of raging at me, she ended with, "Fine. I won't call you again." And she hasn't (which has been just fine, actually), and she has no interest in acknowledging what happened or talking about the current state of our relationship. So saying "no" to the request feels like a reasonable consequence of her past behavior, and in line with our actual relationship.

[sklamath]

If she does find out something personal, she seems quite pleased- like a cat who just pounced on a mouse and now can swing it by the tail. The victorious "gotcha" look is quite unsettling.

Absolutely this. If I don't share the photos, she'll probably just ask someone else to send them, or look at grandma's tablet when she's able to visit. Funny that the thrill of the hunt and the smugness of victory is more fulfilling to her than simply trying to have a better relationship with me.

I feel the same way about her getting pictures. I do send her some. She likes the idea of being a grandmother, but my kids ( now older) are not close to her. She always wants more though and when I send them, it feels creepy somehow, as it feels like supplying her emotional cravings- which it is, and it's a creepy feeling. I also think "what's the big deal, sending picture to a grandmother is normal but the relationship isn't normal.

I would say keep your boundary whatever it is, because whatever you do is not going to be enough.

For me, I complied a lot for the sake of my relationship with my father. I see now that she basically controlled him. I wanted his approval but had to submit to her to get some of that. Didn't matter how much I complied,  one "no" is not acceptable. I say - say "no" at whatever seems best for you. They will think you are unreasonable regardless.

This all resonates. When I started down this road of healing 3-1/2 years ago, I think I made a lot more excuses for my dad over his enabling behavior. They are a package deal; but these days I'm less likely to compromise my boundaries over a transparent request from "dad". Dad's less interested in gathering information about my interpersonal relationships with other people, so this is definitely not his request. Whereas I can almost hear my mom's voice analyzing appearances of the people in the photos...and it creeps me out.

Reasonable or not may not be the best parameter. My BPD mother pushes the boundaries with a series of "reasonable" requests and then does the unreasonable.  Since it's been a sequence of reasonable small requests, saying "no" to one more prompts her to then be "so terribly hurt that you won't do this one little thing" for your mother.

This is such a good point. Though my boundaries will probably never seem "reasonable" to my mother, or to a stranger without a BPD family member...the real issue is that it's a pattern, and that it will never be enough.

[Methuen]

I do want the "no" to end the issue, but I know it's unlikely to be to end--or to end without her sulking. I need to be OK with feeling like the jerk.

This jumped out at me.  I have had to learn to be ok with feeling uncomfortable too, over many things.  It's brutal.  Just remember that you are not a jerk.  You have been conditioned by her to feel like one, but it's up to us to figure out if we should carry that feeling or not.  I often need to be reminded of that, as I tend to forget it when I am in the eye of the hurricane.

[Notwendy]

Somehow, I end up feeling like a jerk no matter what. I can say "yes" many times to BPD mom, even do nice things for her. But one "no" and I become the villain. She'll say things like "nobody ever does anything I ask them to" as if we never did anything for her.

The Karpman triangle might explain this. My mother sees things as a victim. If I am doing nice things for her, she isn't a victim. I sometimes think she pushes the boundary to the point where I say no, because that undoes what I do for her.

One big step for me was to realize that- just because someone thinks or says something about me, does not make it true. The "pink elephant" analogy helps. If your mother called you a pink elephant, you would not feel bad because you are certain it's not true. But if she thinks you are unreasonable, you begin to worry that maybe she's right. But just like she can't think you being a pink elephant makes you one, neither does her thinking you are unreasonable make that true either.

The solution for me is by acting according to my own ethics, not her thinking. I am not a jerk and neither are you. I don't always get this right. It's not my nature to have boundaries like this. But then, not all people in my world violate my boundaries either.

[sklamath]

Somehow, I end up feeling like a jerk no matter what. I can say "yes" many times to BPD mom, even do nice things for her. But one "no" and I become the villain. She'll say things like "nobody ever does anything I ask them to" as if we never did anything for her.

I have had to learn to be ok with feeling uncomfortable too, over many things.  It's brutal.  Just remember that you are not a jerk.  You have been conditioned by her to feel like one, but it's up to us to figure out if we should carry that feeling or not.  I often need to be reminded of that, as I tend to forget it when I am in the eye of the hurricane.

Thank you for these reminders. Positive self talk: I am not a jerk. I am actually a pretty sensitive person, and boundaries help me protect myself.

The Karpman triangle might explain this. My mother sees things as a victim. If I am doing nice things for her, she isn't a victim. I sometimes think she pushes the boundary to the point where I say no, because that undoes what I do for her.

Ugh, yes. I will never understand how that's an enjoyable way to live. But even if she's not willing to execute her agency to shift her perspective, I get to do so for me/mine. I'm pretty agreeable most of the time. And sometimes I say no. Saying no isn't malicious; it isn't even about her.

One big step for me was to realize that- just because someone thinks or says something about me, does not make it true. The "pink elephant" analogy helps. If your mother called you a pink elephant, you would not feel bad because you are certain it's not true. But if she thinks you are unreasonable, you begin to worry that maybe she's right. But just like she can't think you being a pink elephant makes you one, neither does her thinking you are unreasonable make that true either.

As much therapy as I've had, and my own awareness to avoid making always/never statements, I think I need to tackle how to receive/filter out uBPD mom's.  So when mom says "nobody ever", "you never", "always", I can say "hmmm" and move on with my life without taking it personally.

I have participated in a lot of critiques since i was quite young, thanks to participating in the arts, not to mention social, avocational, and professional situations. It's been helpful to "try it on": does that criticism fit? No? OK, moving on. I know I'm getting better at it in mom situations, but I forget sometimes. "You're a terrible listener!" Hmmm...am I though? Does that fit? Actually, I'm the one my friends call. This is a mom problem.

The solution for me is by acting according to my own ethics, not her thinking. I am not a jerk and neither are you. I don't always get this right. It's not my nature to have boundaries like this. But then, not all people in my world violate my boundaries either.

I like this. :c) I generally do a very good job of living in accordance with my ethics. But when her accusations, requests, etc. come into the mix, I have to be kind and remind myself that if other people's moms behaved like this, they too would probably feel a little neurotic and second-guess the validity of their higher-security boundaries.

[Methuen]

As much therapy as I've had, and my own awareness to avoid making always/never statements, I think I need to tackle how to receive/filter out uBPD mom's.  So when mom says "nobody ever", "you never", "always", I can say "hmmm" and move on with my life without taking it personally.

This connected with me.  It hurts so much when they say those things because it reflects how they are feeling about us, which is crushing considering how much we do, and care for them despite all the challenges with a BPD mother.  So your point is a great one.  We're informed enough to not voice always/never statements to others, but also need to remember then to let these statements roll off our backs when we're on the receiving end from our mom.  Thank for for this.  It's like the gift I needed to receive right now.

I have participated in a lot of critiques since i was quite young, thanks to participating in the arts, not to mention social, avocational, and professional situations. It's been helpful to "try it on": does that criticism fit? No? OK, moving on. I know I'm getting better at it in mom situations, but I forget sometimes. "You're a terrible listener!" Hmmm...am I though? Does that fit? Actually, I'm the one my friends call. This is a mom problem.

That's a beautiful deconstruction.  I find my body/brain still has the visceral emotional reaction in the moment (lifetime of conditioning doesn't get undone overnight), and I need time to work through the rational thinking you've just articulated with your example.  It takes energy to do this.  This retraining of the brain/body to not react to the horrid things they say takes time, and a lot of effort.

[Notwendy]

I think it's always a work in progress- but being aware of how we react emotionally helps get me through it better.

It doesn't even have to be my mother. Once a parking attendant yelled at me in a parking lot. I think she was probably having a bad day and I wasn't sure where to park. Someone else may have just brushed it off but I panicked and for about 15 minutes couldn't remember where my car keys were, and had to sit there and calm down.

Another time, a strange woman got mean at me in a restaurant. I had a similar upset reaction. I kept thinking "what did I do wrong" and it was nothing. It was her impression of me that set her off and she was way off base. Thinking about it, I realized it was really inappropriate of her to do that. I also noticed her husband sat there doing nothing, cowering at the table. ( I think he was used to this ) I think someone else may have just brushed it off thinking "that woman is crazy" but I responded with wondering "what did I do?"

The difference now is that I am aware of this reaction and so can talk myself back to calm better and also not react emotionally in the moment. I still find myself welling up with tears when my mother says and does hurtful things. It helps to be able to take them less personally- but it doesn't mean I don't have feelings about them at all.