Conflicted - Communication strategies

[poppy2]

hi,

I have a question which I believe belongs on the conflicted board and relates to communication strategies.

If your partner goes through a very de-stabilizing/splitting period, do you just have to accept afterwards that there'll never be a debrief afterwards? like the weather changing? or is there another way?

Also, if any of your partners used the silent treatment a lot, were very avoidant and hermit like (have to be 'on their own' a lot to function), can I ask whether or how you communicated your own need for stability/commitment in a successful way? does it work out if you appeal on an emotional level (such as, we all like to feel safe and to feel safe I need to know will happen in the future) or do you basically have to accept its their way or the highway (this seems to me like a total communicative dead-end, and I'm sure there's a better way).
 
I'm trying to learn the most I can about BPD to be able to really process my recent experiences, and learning a lot about communication and strategies too from reading this board. Thankyou

[formflier]

  that there'll never be a debrief afterwards? like the weather changing? or is there another way?
 

What would you hope was the result of a debrief afterwards?

Is this something you have tried?  If so..what was the result?

Best,

FF

[poppy2]

Hi form flier,

I always find your comments on these boards so to the point and helpful, I admire it a lot and I appreciate your question 

A point about a debrief is to re-establish trust and try to find common ground after losing it / conflicting. It's to come closer after being estranged (or to stay estranged, if the debrief can't function).

I tried it in my relationship, yes. And the situation only ever became more and more escalated.

I'm learning a lot about communication strategies from this website and trying to understand one massive communication break with my pwBPD. I didn't describe the exact situation cause it's not 'live' and I feel people on this board have more pressing worries.

How about you? do you believe in or benefit from debriefs? what's your experience?

[ForeverDad]

Silent treatment... I believe just about everyone has done it, whether a reasonably normal person or not.  But there's a difference.  Is it because (1) we've been hurt or surprised and are nursing our wounds or trying to figure out what to do next?  Or is it to (2) punish or retaliate against the other?

One is entirely normal, the other is not.

People with an acting-out PD are disordered and have a tendency to act out against others.  That's not healthy, and hurtful too.  (We are dealing with a mental dysfunction, generally not extreme enough to require institutionalization or incarceration.  In other words, their actions, reactions and overreactions are not based on normal common sense as we know it.  They're not normal and we should not expect normal behaviors or responses to be automatic.)

We have to be careful to handle such situations wisely.  Too much freedom to act out, and they're enabled, even enticed, to continue acting out.  Too little consideration and things just gets worse.  Our task here is to strive to find a balance (that works most of the time).

[poppy2]

We have to be careful to handle such situations wisely.  Too much freedom to act out, and they're enabled, even enticed, to continue acting out.  Too little consideration and things just gets worse.  Our task here is to strive to find a balance (that works most of the time).

Hi foreverdad,

Thanks a lot for your reply. I would say that I folded already months before this communication break and 'enabled' her bad behaviours without knowing what that was. I was scared due to constant boundary pushing, devaluation and her unexplained disappearances and didn't set clear boundaries about what I would tolerate. I was also confused, knew nothing about BPD and hoped these problems would go away.

I didn't feel strong enough to assert myself in a power struggle (I didn't even know why there was a power struggle or push/pull). Now I know. It's funny - it's almost like if I had set firm boundaries about appropriate behaviour, instead of trusting her freedom to act appropriately, then she wouldn't have acted out so much, like boundaries with a child enabling the safety they're unable to give themselves. I actually feel very victimized by this, in that it's unfair I would need to 'rein somebody else in' all the time while also taking care of myself. But you live and learn.

[formflier]

Can you give a couple of examples of power struggles you didn't feel comfortable enough putting some muscle into?

I'll be back later with replies about communication strategies...I'll leave a quick  nugget for now (it's not mine..but one that I parrot now because it makes sense/puts Silent Treatment in a different perspective)


If someone is telling you through words and actions that they are unable to have a productive/healthy conversation with you...then why not believe them?

If you believed them...wouldn't you enjoy (relatively) Silent Treatment...as in better than the alternative?

Best,

FF

[poppy2]

Thanks Formflier! And sorry for the length, I try to explain below.

Um, my examples would be: where, for how long, and in what way we spend time together. I felt my pwBPD tried to control all of these things as a way of controlling intimacy. I was scared/withdrawn because this abrupt change made me fear I would lose her otherwise, and I just didn't understand the BPD push/pull dynamics after a long time period when she did make room for my needs.

From a compassionate, and maybe even practical perspective, I can agree with your interpretation of silent treatment. This is the point I'm trying to reach: accepting the other as they are.

However, where am I in all of this? It stressed me out no end to have all communication lines blocked, I'd never experienced that before. I felt she was doing it deliberately to avoid being criticized / being accountable for some issues that she had brought up in the first place and which left me reeling.

I gave her space for 5 weeks (we don't live together) and then the following ensued:
I worked very hard to be understanding over email to bring her from a point of "I never want to speak to you again" to "I admit I would like to see you in the future but right now I'm heartbroken and confused".

I took this as a sign I could assert some of my rights and responded with an ultimatum, saying it was okay to take space, but she would need to commit to the work of repair at some point in the future otherwise I would feel trust is irreparably broken and would need to leave. She replied with half a sentence saying she "wasn't in a position to make any commitments" and for me to leave.

This brief response shocked me because I felt like up until this point communication had been successful. I feel like two communication styles clashed here. If I had validated her further need for space, I felt like I would have been a doormat without any rights or needs. At the same time, if I had been validating rather than "threatened" her with an ultimatum (to me, this was asking for basic respect), she probably would have felt welcome to return once her ST period ended.

Are pwBPD somehow incapable of making future commitments? if the example speaks to you, what do you think went wrong here?

[formflier]

Hey...very insightful and thoughtful.  Good job!   

It stressed me out no end to have all communication lines blocked, I'd never experienced that before.

I hope you can understand this is 100% your work to do...not hers.  If someone else doesn't (fill in the blank)...then I'm not OK.  Not a good place to be.  It puts you being OK in the hands of someone else.

I felt she was doing it deliberately to avoid being criticized / being accountable

Certainly it's possible.

But lets talk about what is more likely.  Does she strike you as someone that is "thinking" their way out of a problem (let's assume being held accountable) or as someone that is having an "outsize" emotional reaction to her perceptions.

which left me reeling.

I would like to know more about the above.  Since I don't have all the details I'll just say as a "principal"...that being successful with a pwBPD means you need to be able to listen to CRAZY...and stay centered.  Centered allows you to think and be empathetic.

  assert some of my rights and responded with an ultimatum,

Uh oh...how did this work out?  "this" being ultimatums

but she would need to commit to the work of repair 

I'm going to bet she felt "attacked" instead of "loved" or "lead".

"you need to commit to repair this relationship."

compared to

"Hey babe...let's spend a weekend together reflecting on our relationship and perhaps we can repair some of our hurts."

would feel trust is irreparably broken and would need to leave.

Uggg...fear of abandonment is huge for pwBPD.  Doesn't sound like this went over well.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

[https://youtu.be/lBKo9_P9SmM] How to best help a pwBPD[/url]

Several really good "ways of being" or "ways of approaching" the issue of BPD in this clip.

Can you share a couple that stood out to you?

Best,

FF

[Manic Miner]

I'm actively watching this thread as Poppy is experiencing almost exactly as me with my pwbpd. Same feeling, same response from a loved one.

Poppy, my friend, even though I cannot help you with this, as I'm searching for it and learning new techniques each day, at least know you're ok and not alone in this.

[poppy2]

I'm actively watching this thread as Poppy is experiencing almost exactly as me with my pwbpd. Same feeling, same response from a loved one.

Poppy, my friend, even though I cannot help you with this, as I'm searching for it and learning new techniques each day, at least know you're ok and not alone in this.

Oh thankyou so much Manic Miner I was really in two minds about posting this but to hear you're in the same boat is really so comforting to me! I'm sorry too but I also think there's a way to learn from it.

[formflier]

That's the beauty of BPDfamily.  Yes the threads help the OP (original poster)...yet we KNOW that so many people read the threads are and like..."That's me!" and get so much out of it.



Let's see if FF can make this work this time

And...I'll try again for the link...one of those Mondays.

Best,

FF

[poppy2]

The link was amazing, it worked for me the first time actually!

I'm just trying to process all the things you've shared and develop my response in the light of this new information

[formflier]

The link was amazing, it worked for me the first time actually!

I'm just trying to process all the things you've shared and develop my response in the light of this new information

I would encourage you to sit back with a favorite drink and focus on this for 15-30 min or so.  Then give us your first reaction.

Based on the video (and other info) I should have (blank) instead of what I did which was (blank).  Perhaps a couple lines about the reasons by the new way is better.

Focus on the future...the past is done...can't be changed so let's keep it in perspective.

Best,

FF

[poppy2]

Hi Form Flier

So, onto my third draft now I've done my best to be concise.

For me, emotionally, this past event is very present. That's why I'm conflicted. I really don't know what I could have done differently, and want to "unstick" myself.

The video was very helpful. I only found out about BPD 2 weeks after this communication breakdown, that's why I need to do this work retrospectively. What he says in the video about "walking away" and "manifesting another reality" really spoke to me and I'm trying to do those things.

For me, the reason I didn't (still can't?) emotionally walk away is because I don't think a relationship has to completely end over a conflict which can be sorted out through talking. But I have come very far in detaching my needs from hers.

My dependence was there, you're right. For me, that dependence meant: trust, reliance, and a feeling that somebody will be in your corner. It was a huge shock to experience the opposite of that. I'd like to briefly explain what "left me reeling", since you ask:

a) she once assaulted me sexually, I repressed the memory and her version of it became also very disordered/different. I was trying to talk to her about this and she kept finding excuses not to/couldnt, which finally also involved b) her telling me that something very damaging happened to her, which basically touched a recent wound of mine she knew about. I don't know if this was true or not or a way of moving the goalposts (certainly how it felt). It was after the crisis produced by b) that we entered ST territory.

I'm proud to say that I have accepted she isn't able to give me the recognition I deserve about a) (it was a big step), and I am still trying to process b). 

In non-violent communication they say, pay attention to what is living.

What is still living for me is the wish to have a conversation with her about all of this, to have honesty. That may be too much to ask from a pwBPD. I'm not sure how I would be exposed to their self-centered and distorted worldview, and still hold on to what I know is real. That is what I wish for (rightly or wrongly).

I don't know what I could have done differently at the time, and for another reason that I'm certain will be very relevant to other members here - what about me? I mean, doesn't there have to come a point where you say 'I can't live with this anymore, I need this from you or I'll have to do this'? What am I missing?

My communication didn't get me my long-term goal, (I didn't know about wise mind then ). But I'm also not superhuman. It's the false choice of this dichotomy between either being depleted / or superhuman that I'm trying to work through with this post.

This will also protect me in the future, cause I am pretty sure she will contact me and I want to be in a different place then.

Thank you so much for reading!

[poppy2]

or as someone that is having an "outsize" emotional reaction to her perceptions.

This was also very helpful, thank you. When we say "outsize" can we say "football field and growing" 

I'm going to bet she felt "attacked" instead of "loved" or "lead".

I'm sure you're right. This is what I'm trying to understand to humanize the situation. 

Uggg...fear of abandonment is huge for pwBPD.  Doesn't sound like this went over well.

This is the part where I find release. She always (is still) hedging her bets about leaving, I believe, but there's only so far an illness goes in excusing negative behaviour (I hope).
What also is really helping me, and I'll put it here for other members, is the idea to "let them fail" (from I hate you, don't leave me). That's really hard. I wish I had been stronger to embrace that at the time. And that's also super connected to what the video says about walking away.

[Manic Miner]

Poppy, do you have that feeling that all could have settled down by having a long but simple and honest talk, no taboos, no eggshells? And then just live and utilize things you two talked about?

But here you are, either broke up or invested into endless fights, threats, divorces.
 
Yeah, me too.

[poppy2]

Poppy, do you have that feeling that all could have settled down by having a long but simple and honest talk, no taboos, no eggshells? And then just live and utilize things you two talked about?

But here you are, either broke up or invested into endless fights, threats, divorces.
 
Yeah, me too.

I had that feeling before, yes! very strongly, and for 6 months. Now I have the feeling: play the player, not the game (i.e., work with what is present. whatever that is). I'm learning a lot.

I'm sorry if you're going through a divorce. We weren't married, I got the threats though 

[Manic Miner]

Still not divorcing, but living on the edge.   

Play the player seems a nice strategy too.

If I ever master these coping tools and heal myself enough, I will also learn to take big laughs on this. The absurdity of their/our situations are so big, I can imagine some skits being drawn.

[poppy2]

Right, sorry! just threats of divorce so far 

I completely agree with you. I have so much suppressed energy about this, I could laugh and laugh about it (nervously, hysterically).

Here would be my joke (gallows humor)- what's the best time for a pwBPD to leave you? when you need them the most (cue major engulfment fears).

It might not sound funny, but I'm trying to laugh about it. What about you? have a joke you want to share?

PS I read your story. If I can share a piece of advice - it sounds like you're in such a high stress situation, I really recommend you try and take care of your body. I know it's hard, but states of high arousal make it all worse (I wish someone had told me that too). Here are some vague suggestions, I hope there's one for you:

try and do some deep breathing (one nostril in, one nostril out) for 5-10 min a day. feel and notice the brief release of stress after
getting enough sleep
go for a walk and try to focus on your surroundings, naming them also helps - tree, rock, sky, etc. it takes you out of your mind. feel and notice the posture of the body change after 30min.Is it better, lighter, heavier? this really helps too
...
this might sound simple, but if you can manage breaks from a high stress situation, it will give you a little extra energy the next time you need it.

[formflier]

Hey poppy2...I liked your comment about trying to "humanize" the situation.  And I think it's important that I do that with you as well.

Remind me again how long you have known there was a thing called BPD? (sounds like you learned it during this big blow up/crisis/ST thing)

I remember the feelings when I read SWOE (stop walking on eggshells) for the first time and realized I wasn't the only one dealing with "this" and "this" had a name.

Please be extra kind to yourself this evening...

Best,

FF

[poppy2]

Hi formflyer,

Well, yes you're right. I found this web page perhaps.. 3 months ago? by chance, and off a strange hint from my ex about BPD.

Since then I read everything on BPD (seriously). When I read the 'Stop caretaking... ' book I saw my life flash before my eyes.

I think my life has been shaped by PDs and I haven't fully realized that until now (it was 'normal')... I'm learning.

[formflier]

So...be kind to yourself.  You are still in "firehose" mode..where all this information is coming at you super fast!  And it's new information..."do what?" kind of information...head spinning stuff.

Don't be afraid to reread posts...sit with them for a while, come back a few weeks later and ask questions..especially if you think you just had a "light-bulb" moment


Best,

FF

[poppy2]

Hi Formflier,

Okay, thankyou, I will take your advice and try to slow down.

 

[Manic Miner]

Poppy,

Thanks for the tips! I'm yet to try those breathing techniques you mentioned. The good news is I'm already practicing home workout, jogging and hiking in the nature. Nature relieves all stress out of me. I feel at home in the woods or mountains. Never been in a better shape - physically. But so much work to do on the awareness and releasing the tensions within me.

[poppy2]

Hey,

I'm really glad to hear you have nature around you, that's the best remedy.

The breathing technique comes from yoga and it is excellent to regulate high stress or anxiety. It always works.

Place a finger to close one nostril, and breathe in from the other slowly and 'completely'. Change the finger to block the other nostril and breathe out slowly, then breathe in again from the same nostril, and repeat as long as needed. It's like a 'get out of jail free card' if you need to de-stress.

[once removed]

If your partner goes through a very de-stabilizing/splitting period, do you just have to accept afterwards that there'll never be a debrief afterwards? like the weather changing? or is there another way?

i assume (correct me if im wrong) that by this (debrief) you mean acknowledgment of things gone too far, things better off not said, apologies. that you wanted to revisit some of the things your ex said or did.

a large part of it depends on how you go about it.

the times i was most upset and hurt, and wanted to talk in depth with my ex about some of the nasty things she said, she had a lot of difficulty talking about it and hearing it. it made her cringe. it upset her.

i think thats true for most of us. no one who is emotionally dysregulated is the ideal version of themselves. you know what i really cant stand reading? anything i said when i was heated, really upset, or drunk.

if i directed any of those things at a romantic partner, you know, i think its reasonable to be prepared to hear about it. but i wouldnt want to feel cornered. people with bpd traits feel easily cornered.

so many of these relationships, at the end of the day, are endless fights over being heard, and "saying it louder" in order to be heard. their brokenness is often a product of how conflict is approached, resolved, or unresolved. theyre a product of what both people bring to the table, and what they bring to the table may be compatible or incompatible, or a mix of both. theyre a product of both people, both of whom feel unheard, trying to bring the other person to hear them and rectify the issue. never really hearing each other.

[ForeverDad]

When you mention debrief, do you mean closure or acknowledgement?

As a general observation, most here never got 'closure'.  You're dealing with a mental or cognitive dysfunction.  Asking for closure from an acting-out disordered person can easily fail.  Is the relationship ending?  Better to "Gift yourself Closure" and then Move On with your life.

Some have written it all out on paper and then held a burning ceremony - no forest fires please!  Maybe hike or climb a mountain and shout to the wind and sky.  Whatever works for you to Let Go and Move On.

[poppy2]

i assume (correct me if im wrong) that by this (debrief) you mean acknowledgment of things gone too far, things better off not said, apologies. that you wanted to revisit some of the things your ex said or did.

Thanks Once Removed and Forever Dad for the input. I was in such a state of shock, for different reasons, that now I'm processing the memories I have. For me, "debrief" I suppose means this (this site is a debrief, in a way), and in a relationship to someone it means, not necessarily what you said (but I know what you mean) but rather what I've done with my good friends successfully over the years: something happens, and then at some point you talk about it. Not necessarily "bad" things, like drunken texts or angry words, but situations that left hurt or estrangement.

What I'm curious to learn about people with BPD, and maybe conflicts in general with non-logical people, is if you just validate however it is they are feeling at the time, then they will generally come around to a point where they will also expose how they really feel underneath the surface, including things they may have done wrong. So validation doesn't mean - you're right all the time - it means - I'm going to support you to the point where you're capable of having an adult conversation again. This could also really be a slippery slope and very delicate when it comes to delusional or non-factual memories.

The reason I'm interested is not for closure, but for learning. I remember something my ex said to me, as we were trying to navigate a conflict: "I've never done this before." I feel like the burden of navigating the conflict well was on me, not 50% of the heavy lifting, but 80%. I was basically wondering if that is the general experience of people with dysregulated pwBPD partners. And also, how strong those partners are to validate themselves without necessarily taking the conflicts or pwBPD decisions "personally".

It feels to me really like a Catch-22. If pwBPD does something bad, and then talking to them is escalation, how should the non feel if this bad thing happens again? and if the non does try to talk, then the bad thing snowballs and becomes even worse things (my experience).

What I like so much about the idea of validation is that you respect another person's worldview, regardless if you agree or not. What I really don't like about it is, that I'm sure my pwBPD really did have the emotional intelligence of a child. How can I validate that, without sacrificing my needs (like a parent legitimately does)? Such a tricky situation.

theyre a product of both people, both of whom feel unheard, trying to bring the other person to hear them and rectify the issue. never really hearing each other

I would really like to believe this. So it's essential to express needs clearly, and maybe even several times for them to sink in (nobody is a mind reader, though we sometimes wish it.) And if someone cannot express their needs... well, then, the relationship is probably doomed.

[poppy2]

Some have written it all out on paper and then held a burning ceremony - no forest fires please!  Maybe hike or climb a mountain and shout to the wind and sky.  Whatever works for you to Let Go and Move On.

Thanks a lot. I've done this and more Now, I'm trying to learn the most I can from the experience. That is my "moving on", truly.