How to approach difficult discussions

[Tuxedo Cat]

The biggest reason my uBPD husband gives for his moving out is that I don’t respect him/always disregard him.  I’ve learned a lot of this feeling comes from his high validation needs and my poor communication skills in the face of this.  However, it has seemed to me over the years that if I disagree with him about ANYTHING, he takes it as a slight and a sign of disrespect.  And it can literally be anything.  It has made me feel as if I have to be perfect, and being perfect is agreeing with him about everything.
I can and do really want to work on validation and breaking out of codependency habits. However, this need for 100% agreement or I’m disrespecting seems like such a big hurdle. For example, if I disagree about how to go about something with the kids, then to him, I’m disrespecting him. It’s so black and white, and no consideration to where I’m coming from.  And there have been huge, awful, hurtful behaviors from him because of this. Now, having learned a lot here and in the Stop Walking on Eggshells book, I am beginning to know why he feels this way.
But I have a practical question/request for advice: how to approach talking to him about things I disagree with him on or even just have a little difference of opinion on when it comes to the kids? He just gets angry and points to this as another sign that I don’t respect him.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Jabiru]

formflier's reply here may help. Of course, it depends on the subject and real life implications. Do you mind sharing more details?

[thankful person]

I haven’t been on this learning part of this journey very long, but I have found recently that not disagreeing with my wife, as ff suggested, goes a long way to help things. Take for example, one thing she says recently, that she saw this article about a 2 and 3 years old sisters and wanted to adopt them “I want to look after them and love them forever” she texted me. In the past, I would have come back with all the reasons this would never work, “yes those kids need a loving home but you’re crazy to think we should take them on “… But I actually just validated her feelings, “yes dear…” you know? And she never mentioned it since. In the past, something like this.. she would have been angry and moody for days… but mostly would have gone on and on about how I’m such a terrible person and those kids’ happiness depends on me and I don’t care about their happiness or well being…

[Tuxedo Cat]

I’m learning a lot about not being invalidating.  For me, this usually has happened when faced with an accusation, and I come back with a “no, I did not” or “that’s not what I meant”. I’m definitely seeing why it’s very important that I stop reacting in that way.
But what I’m talking about here can be a small thing, such as I like to buy organic popcorn but he thinks Pop Secret is better.  This seriously turned into a huge offense to him when I bought some organic popcorn before I realized it was so important to him that I not.  It had sat unused in the cupboard until one movie night with the kids when my daughter asked for popcorn.  There was the box of the organic and one bag of the Pop Secret. I thought it would be considerate to ask my husband if I should use the one bag of the popcorn he thought was better, or since my daughter was the only one who wanted popcorn, to save that “favored” bag for him and give her the organic.  Now, I truly just wanted to save the kind he liked for him, since I knew he liked it.  But it was not taken that way. He ended up refusing to watch the movie with us (me) not only that night, but any other movie night where it was a movie I liked (punishment for disagreeing).

More importantly though, are disagreements involving the kids and how to handle some aspect of raising them.  For example, long ago, my daughter (later diagnosed asd) was late to potty train.  I wanted to give her a bit more time and not be hard on her for wanting to be in her diapers (she had just turned 3).  My husband was adamant she be potty trained and scolded if she didn’t use the potty and went in her diaper.  I just didn't agree with that approach.  My perspective/values were just different on that topic.  I was willing to work with my daughter more, but I didn’t want to punish or scold her. This became a trigger for huge disassociation/rage episode.
I’m sure along the way I was invalidating in some ways.  But, for some things, I just disagree. For those instances where the disagreement stems from a differing sense of values, how do I approach the conversation?  If this relationship ends up continuing, it is inevitable that will be times when we disagree. It just seems like the give/take that is needed for a marriage to work isn’t possible.

[thankful person]

Tuxedo, I know what you mean. It’s been a bad day here, one thing we disagreed over was me shouting at the toddler to get off the dog’s head. My wife feels I overrule her and she had firmly said “no” which would have been enough…” no need to shout”. I actually disagree with this, but then I save my shouting voice for situations which are actually dangerous, so it gets a better response from the child. This is non-negotiable to me. Even if I’m close enough to grab the child, I make the decision to shout, make her realise it’s serious. Because I don’t want the dog getting angry with her. It’s been a bad day here with me being accused of not supporting my wife, not giving her the sex life she wants, not caring, always starting arguments etc etc. For once it actually correlates with some other severely stressful things that are going on right now with our house sale. So it’s still hard because it doesn’t make sense, but I can see for once that she’s just stressed about that and taking it out on me. Anyway I’m sorry I’m not much help. I will wait to see what else the good people here have to say.

[thankful person]

P.s. Your story about the popcorn reminded me of the day when the supermarket click and collect gave us apple turnovers with cream instead of without. And I stupidly thought my wife would like them, because she likes cream. This ruined the whole day, “there’s nothing to eat”. And then she ate them. Turned out she did like them after all.

[Tuxedo Cat]

It’s been a bad day here with me being accused of not supporting my wife, not giving her the sex life she wants, not caring, always starting arguments etc etc. For once it actually correlates with some other severely stressful things that are going on right now with our house sale. So it’s still hard because it doesn’t make sense, but I can see for once that she’s just stressed about that and taking it out on me.

Oh wow, this is so, so very familiar! Ugh, when we are split and nothing we do is “right” or “enough”.  And it is so hard to understand.  For years I have been JADEing because I just couldn’t understand why he would think this way.

[thankful person]

For years I have been JADEing because I just couldn’t understand why he would think this way.

Yes, exactly, me too. One of the worst things that happened, when our eldest was tiny, was I had changed the bed sheets (my wife hates doing it and has asked me to). At that time my wife had 12 pillows on the bed (no exaggeration). All different types of pillows. And I had changed each one and carefully positioned them all in exactly the spot I found them. Omg the screeching that went down when I vehemently denied that I had switched them round or fluffed them up or put them in different positions… I have learnt so much since being on here and I now realise how absolutely futile it all was. I can only appreciate that I am now learning all this stuff, as opposed to the first 6.5 years where I just muddled through, trying to communicate as you would with a “normal” person. It’s hard though isn’t it, feeling you can’t get any support like you would in a “normal” relationship. I mean, I’m having a hard time with the house sale too… Looking back at my exes, they all had control issues. But before I was with my wife, no one ever withheld affection as long term punishment like she does.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi TuxedoCat,

So many familiar memories when I read your post about respect. I lived with the same accusations and projections, that I was so disrespectful.

There were many different 'tests' that were put out, to see if I would respect my then DH. One was the kitchen table. Since I didn't keep it totally cleaned off, according to him, I was disrespectful and taught our children to disrespect him too. We ate supper there every night and the table was cleaned off for it. The kids sat there to do homework so that they could be near the center of the home (we had an open floor plan of the kitchen, eat in kitchen, and family room all together). I loved having the children around, interacting with each other and myself. Nonetheless, if there were ever anything on the table (and it's not like there were piles of papers everywhere for long periods of time on it), it was considered disrespect. There were many other examples.

One time a marriage T asked him what respect meant. He couldn't define it. It really was much more of what you are dealing with, that any thought or expression different from what he wanted reality to be was labeled as disrespect. The truth is that respect is not the real issue. It's a smoke screen. Can you tell me what you think the real issue might be?

Are you a person of faith, where the term respect is used based on Biblical instructions for wives to be respectful of their husbands? I ask because that brings up other issues which I dealt with too.

 
Wools

[Tuxedo Cat]

Such an interesting question, Wools, thanks for getting me thinking.  For the kid discussions, I have a strong idea of what the real issue is.  For the other small, seemingly much less significant, that’s tougher.
My husband has some major trauma around the issue of having  and raising his children. Without going into a lot of detail, before I met him, he had a child who he was not allowed to raise. Later, during our marriage, he tried to connect with this child (now grown), but the child did not want a close relationship with him. He has accused me many times of trying to take our children away from him. In reality (at least to me), the only time I took the children from our house to be away from him was when he had a major rage/disassociation episode and I took them to my mom’s house. 
He also seems like he is “jealous” of my family and upbringing. I don’t know exactly how to describe it, kind of jealousy, maybe resentful projection or something? Basically his mother had one or more mental health issues.  She did some awful stuff when he was small, like telling him she didn’t want him and kicking him out.  He was not even school age yet.  My family was much more stable and familial bond means a lot to us. 
So, I think there is a lot of those feelings in his black/white perception of “respect” when it comes to me bringing my own ideas into raising the kids (when it’s different from his ideas).  It’s a lot! How to even approach that when that much baggage is behind his wall?
For the small stuff, I really don’t know.  Sometimes it seems like a miscommunication or misperception can’t be clarified.  I know now I shouldn’t JADE, and I think that might be the issue. 
Neither of us are particularly religious.  However, culturally there is some machismo, which as a (proud) child of immigrants, I pushed back against growing up A LOT. His mom was uneducated and depended on his dad for almost everything.

[Tuxedo Cat]

I am sitting here thinking of the Pop Secret fiasco and how I was “punished” not only with him refusing to watch it with the family, but refusing to watch other movies in that series with us (it was a trilogy).  After he got angry, I let him make his choice to leave and we went on to watch the movie.  The kids were shocked and baffled by his sudden explosive anger about the popcorn and I really didn’t want to continue any drama/argument.  In the past, I think I would have tried and tried to get him back, or turn off the movie and stop everything to try and “make him feel better”.  But that never worked either, at least not for me. So we watched the movie without him.  And all the others.  Another thing is this movie trilogy was one that was a part of our dating/early marriage life and there were a lot of memories attached to it.  I wonder if he felt really betrayed or something. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again TuxedoCat,

I can tell you've been thinking a lot. Thank you for the explanation about DH childhood. I can see that he would have what our marriage counselor calls 'enduring vulnerabilities.' I love the term because it speaks to those sore and ouchy places in our lives that don't go away.

It seems as if you're starting to realize that if you do A he isn't satisfied, and if you do B hi isn't satisfied either. The target seems to move, and that creates so much confusion for you and the children. Could it be that it is more of a control issue, that he only wants his reality and not that of anyone else?

I read a book that I want to recommend to you. It was very helpful to me, probably one of the most helpful books I have read. Not only did I learn about my (then) spouse, but the bright light of understanding shone on my life as well. I began to finally see why I did certain things and how they kept me on the drama triangle. Are you able to buy a book and keep it out of sight safely or can you download one electronically on a password protected device? We always want to encourage safety first.

Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist

When you go to the link, if you click on the link of where to buy, you will see many current options available.

Hang in there, 
Wools

[Tuxedo Cat]

[quote author=Woolspinner2000 link=topic

It seems as if you're starting to realize that if you do A he isn't satisfied, and if you do B hi isn't satisfied either. The target seems to move, and that creates so much confusion for you and the children. Could it be that it is more of a control issue, that he only wants his reality and not that of anyone else?
[/quote]

Book ordered, thx for the recommendation.
Yes, it is a control issue, I think.  Those moving targets stung so bad early on, because I just didn’t understand any of it. A few years back I put a name on it-“the impossible situation”.  Even though I know what it is, I still don’t know how to maneuver out of it. Sometimes I can.

I feel like the reality he wants is the one where all of us (his loving family), just don’t like/“respect” anything about him.  And all this is usually about proving that. 

He sets these things up a lot in “normal” times, but usually the intensity of his feelings aren’t so high, it’s manageable. But there is  periodic amping up every few years.  Part of my thinking lately is trying to reflect and think about how I’ve changed.

[Woolspinner2000]

Part of my thinking lately is trying to reflect and think about how I’ve changed

This is really good, and kudos to you.  I think we all change as the years go by. We grow and mature and learn and apply those new growths to our lives...or those of us who are healthy do so. I have been in T for some time. It has produced tremendous healthy growth in my life and those around me see it. During some Of the worst times DH would say he had changed too, and that he had grown and didn't I see it? How could I answer honestly and say, "No, you are still the same or worse?" I could be honest and say I had seen that he had been stretched in the classes he had been taking in college. That seemed to satisfy him. His belief of himself was quite different than the reality my son and I lived with.

Those moving targets stung so bad early on, because I just didn’t understand any of it. A few years back I put a name on it-“the impossible situation”.  Even though I know what it is, I still don’t know how to maneuver out of it. Sometimes I can.

From what you've shared before, I see that you're practicing JADE, SET, and have you heard of BIFF? I think you actually have the answer right within what you wrote..."Those moving targets stung so bad early on...

Stop aiming for the moving targets. Don't aim for his targets at all. Aim for you, your children, and growing stronger within yourself. He is responsible for his reactions and tantrums and rages and projections. You are not responsible for his choices.

Here is a story to show you how my early thinking went. My T said, "I don't like your purse. The color is not my favorite." Then he asked how I was going to respond. I could feel myself freezing inside. I thought about saying, "I'm sorry." He said I couldn't do that. I thought about hiding my purse so he couldn't see it and maybe that would make him happier. He told me I couldn't do that either. He kept poking at me. "I don't like your purse, and it's your fault." Now I was starting to panic. What could I do or say? I was so conditioned to try and please others. Having a uBPDm taught me that I had to please in order to survive. But now I was an adult and didn't have to follow those learned behaviours that were no longer healthy or productive in my adult life.

"Wools," he said gently, "you don't have to do or say anything. It's not your problem. It's my issue. It's my problem that I don't like your purse. It's my responsibility to deal with my feelings and issues, not yours."

I have not forgotten that lesson. It was a huge pivotal point for me, especially because of my childhood. I think not everyone sees the world as I had grown to see it, and I have had some major unlearning to do.

I'm glad you ordered the book. Keep us informed when you start reading it.

  for this day for you,
Wools

[thankful person]

The moving targets is another thing I’ve struggled with my wife and slowly come to realise, “hang on if I’m not going to get it ‘right’ then what’s the point in trying?”
I also recently read the stop caretaking book and I think” it may have been your recommendation wools it has already changed my life and thank you.