S12 idealizes BPD parent, have you been in similar situation?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi everyone,

Writing my thoughts here about some recent developments in hopes of maybe someone having wisdom to share. And hoping that writing also helps me see things more clearly. And also I want to thank this community for always being so supportive, can’t even begin to tell you how much it has helped over the recent years.

For some time now S12 has been clearly idealizing his BPD dad and has an attitude towards me. I guess I could sum it up by saying he expects services and money from me, but totally out of question to ask any of those from his dad. S12 sees it as my duty to provide everything and he thinks that expecting anything from dad would be unfair to my BPDex. This is something S12 has even said to me.  He seems to protect his dad from such requirements. Of course to some extent this attitude might be due to puberty and related mood swings. And he is with his dad only every other weekend so maybe he does not want to be any kind of burden to his dad. And in a way I guess I am the boring parent who makes sure that homework is done and you need to get enough sleep on school days and so on. Also my son has said he does not want to spend any time with me, so I feel like the mom of the year. Anyone else been in similar situation? How did you deal with it? Have tried talking with my son but he has a pretty strong attitude most of the time 

S5 on the other hand has told me he does not want to go to dad’s ”in his other place”. Turns out BPDexh has been taking the kids to his new gf’s house every now and then for quite some time, but seems like kids have been told to keep it a secret from me. Which would explain why S5 is always reacting to these weekends quite strong. Also with this information it’s pretty likely ex’s suicidal episode (which I wrote about in another thread back then) in September likely had something to do with this relationship - very likely there was some drama at the time, so who else to turn to but me... I figured there was someone in his life but did not know he had been taking the kids to her house.  I don’t really care that he has a gf, just hoping their dramas would not become a burden to the kids.

Anyway, it helps to get this out of my chest. And I would appreciate  thoughts and experiences on parenting when your kid idealizes the bpd parent.

[Marianne-11]

Hi everyone,

Writing my thoughts here about some recent developments in hopes of maybe someone having wisdom to share. And hoping that writing also helps me see things more clearly. And also I want to thank this community for always being so supportive, can’t even begin to tell you how much it has helped over the recent years.

For some time now S12 has been clearly idealizing his BPD dad and has an attitude towards me. I guess I could sum it up by saying he expects services and money from me, but totally out of question to ask any of those from his dad. S12 sees it as my duty to provide everything and he thinks that expecting anything from dad would be unfair to my BPDex. This is something S12 has even said to me.  He seems to protect his dad from such requirements. Of course to some extent this attitude might be due to puberty and related mood swings. And he is with his dad only every other weekend so maybe he does not want to be any kind of burden to his dad. And in a way I guess I am the boring parent who makes sure that homework is done and you need to get enough sleep on school days and so on. Also my son has said he does not want to spend any time with me, so I feel like the mom of the year. Anyone else been in similar situation? How did you deal with it? Have tried talking with my son but he has a pretty strong attitude most of the time 

S5 on the other hand has told me he does not want to go to dad’s ”in his other place”. Turns out BPDexh has been taking the kids to his new gf’s house every now and then for quite some time, but seems like kids have been told to keep it a secret from me. Which would explain why S5 is always reacting to these weekends quite strong. Also with this information it’s pretty likely ex’s suicidal episode (which I wrote about in another thread back then) in September likely had something to do with this relationship - very likely there was some drama at the time, so who else to turn to but me... I figured there was someone in his life but did not know he had been taking the kids to her house.  I don’t really care that he has a gf, just hoping their dramas would not become a burden to the kids.

Anyway, it helps to get this out of my chest. And I would appreciate  thoughts and experiences on parenting when your kid idealizes the bpd parent.

[Cat Familiar]

No experience personally, but I did date a man whose daughter craved approval from her (what I imagined to be) narcissistic mother. Approval she never got, but nonetheless wanted.

Her dad did everything for her, supported her in every way imaginable, and she treated him like  

Her mother was “perfect” in her eyes, though she ignored her daughter and seemingly was embarrassed by her.

[Marianne-11]

Hi Cat! Sounds very similar to our situation at the moment. I do everything I can for the kids, they are for sure my number one priority. S12 used to be open, honest, trusting, kind and easygoing but now it’s more like the opposite. Very unlike him and rather quick change.

Of course this could be an age related phase that passes, but it is worrying because it’s such a dramatic change. And I can’t seem to get him to open up like before. BPDex to ask kids to keep secrets from me is likely a big burden for them. My core values are honesty and openness, so it’s pretty much also the opposite of what I try to teach them and show by example. Deep down I am worried that he will adopt his dad’s BPD view of the world and relationships and I so hope this would not happen.

[livednlearned]

I do everything I can for the kids, they are for sure my number one priority.

Does he have opportunities to witness you treating yourself with respect?

[ConstantStateFFF]

Similar situation here.. S11 is starting some of these traits, hes not as open as he used to be with me. Is very rude and disrespectful after his every other weekend visits. I am primary caregiver, actually the only since father participates in day to day life, zero.

My therapist tries to remind me that not every undesirable trait my S11 is showing are necessarily the negative influences of the (I’m new here and learning the lingo, are they all coded as BPD because my son’s father is a Malignant Narcissist) ExNarc and it can be hard to determine what is Hormonal changes and what is the negative influence.

However as you both have said, my S11 has been encouraged to keep things from me and encouraged to be disrespect toward me as well. My S11 doesn’t ask his father for money or things in general because he simply knows he won’t get it, or he’ll get a promise of and then later told to ask Mom since she gets Child Support. He doesn’t idolize his father but does his older 19 year old brother on his fathers side, who is a carbon copy of their father. And may be turning out worse. This influence concerns me even more.

Because who has more weight to their words then Parents who don’t get it… Older siblings… that’s who.

[Marianne-11]

Does he have opportunities to witness you treating yourself with respect?

That is a really good question, thank you. Yes, for example in the sense that I stick to the boundaries and rules in our home and for example don’t allow him calling me names (which he tried). I make a lot of effort in trying to direct behaviors into more constructive direction. Though clearly failing at that at the moment.

But my time and energy are pretty much completely consumed by my work and kids’ needs, and financially it will be tight for a few months still, so he has not wittnessed me doing anything nice just for myself in the longest time. This is the opposite of their dad who has zero responsibilities and doing what he pleases whenever he pleases. Not saying this as a bitter person (I am not), but rather thinking about how this looks like in the eyes of a young boy and effects his thinking of roles of men and women.

ConstantStateFFF, my warmest welcome to this community and thank you for sharing. I am so sorry you are in a very similar, almost identical, situation. I totally get your concern.

I wish I would have a crystal ball to see if this is a hormonal thing that passes. But if this is early stages of developing a personality disorder then what can I do to stop that development.

[ConstantStateFFF]

But if this is early stages of developing a personality disorder then what can I do to stop that development.

Man oh man… I’d be rich if i had a penny for everything i sat on my therapists couch and balled my eyes out with that exact statement.

Your children have you. That is what is going to HELP stop that development. Because they have a mother who is doing her very best to educate herself. They have a mother who is giving them what they need (even though we often feel undervalued) stay steady (per my S11 therapist).. They know who the consistent parent is, they know who is meeting their needs, they know who their emotions are safe with.. they know they can come home and be rude and disrespectful to mom.. because they KNOW mom loves them unconditionally and mom is going to be the same mom with the same love (no less) on their good days and their bad days.

You’ve got this momma!

[Marianne-11]

Man oh man… I’d be rich if i had a penny for everything i sat on my therapists couch and balled my eyes out with that exact statement.

Your children have you. That is what is going to HELP stop that development. Because they have a mother who is doing her very best to educate herself. They have a mother who is giving them what they need (even though we often feel undervalued) stay steady (per my S11 therapist).. They know who the consistent parent is, they know who is meeting their needs, they know who their emotions are safe with.. they know they can come home and be rude and disrespectful to mom.. because they KNOW mom loves them unconditionally and mom is going to be the same mom with the same love (no less) on their good days and their bad days.

You’ve got this momma!

Thank you for support and wise words, much needed and appreciated. Your kid has an amazing, wise mom 

I guess we need to do best we can and trust that it will be enough and things will work out in the long run. I wish you also strength in dealing with these issues. It can be so frustrating at times. Hopefully there will be easier times ahead, too.

[ConstantStateFFF]

Thank you for support and wise words, much needed and appreciated. Your kid has an amazing, wise mom 

I guess we need to do best we can and trust that it will be enough and things will work out in the long run. I wish you also strength in dealing with these issues. It can be so frustrating at times. Hopefully there will be easier times ahead, too.

Thank You ❤️

[JenDine]

This sounds like my situation with my 12-year-old daughter.  She acts as if she hates me and her BPD dad is wonderful.  She also idolizes his 25-year-old daughter who is a high-priced escort.  My 18 year old son is closer to me and I believe it is because I am dependable.  He dislikes his step-sister since she took him off on some wild journey that traumatized him.  I am worried, now that we are divorcing that my ex and his prostitute daughter with have more 1:1 time with my daughter and how this will affect her. I should probably get a counselor to help out but it seems so complex I worry about finding someone with adequate qualifications.

[Marianne-11]

This sounds like my situation with my 12-year-old daughter.  She acts as if she hates me and her BPD dad is wonderful.  She also idolizes his 25-year-old daughter who is a high-priced escort.  My 18 year old son is closer to me and I believe it is because I am dependable.  He dislikes his step-sister since she took him off on some wild journey that traumatized him.  I am worried, now that we are divorcing that my ex and his prostitute daughter with have more 1:1 time with my daughter and how this will affect her. I should probably get a counselor to help out but it seems so complex I worry about finding someone with adequate qualifications.

Hi JenDine, welcome here and thank you for sharing. I am sorry to hear that you too are in a similar situation. I can so relate to your worries. And sorry to hear what happened to your son. It is so frustrating that everything seems to be about the disordered persons and their impulses, even and very often, at the expense of children and their wellbeing.

I’ve also thought of getting counseling for my son but the things that happen are so unbelievable to outsiders in so many ways, that they would have to be a really experienced professional to be helpful.

These events can consume all energy at times. It’s definitely one of those moments here right now. Maybe it would be best if we all try to do something nice for ourselves, even if it is for a brief moment or something small. To recharge our own batteries and be better prepared to deal with the challenges ahead.

[ConstantStateFFF]

I’ve also thought of getting counseling for my son but the things that happen are so unbelievable to outsiders in so many ways, that they would have to be a really experienced professional to be helpful.

Oh Goodness! I felt that!
 I am a HUGE advocate of Therapy especially for children! I have been recently diagnosed with Complex PTSD a combination of the trauma from the NPD and Childhood.. I have been in therapy off and on since the age of 7, I’m 38 now. Not once in my years of therapy have I felt that I have healed, as much as I have in the past year. Hence the reason it was off and on.

I started therapy again after leaving the NPD relationship in 2020 and being unable to function and complete the daily basic needs for myself. I sought treatment for the Trauma I experienced in the 16years of “dealing” with this man (most of them not in an actual relationship with him and just simply attempting to co parent). In this treatment EMDR Therapy is where we started. What i thought was just a “crappy” childhood, evolved into a great understanding of why I was such a great target for the NPD. Again what I always perceived to just be a crappy childhood I now understand was not normal and Severe Childhood Emotional Neglect among other things (hence why I’m such an advocate of childhood therapy, if my mother had put in the time and energy to keep me in therapy when i was a child i may have a completely different life now, but i for sure wouldn’t be AS damaged as i am). I was raised by a single mother, she was it, she and my older sister were all I had.

I say this to say.. Our children have US. So there is HOPE they won’t be as messed up as I ended up being haha But, there is still a large amount of damage being done to our children’s emotions, and development with their continued involvement and relationship with their other parent.

I started my son in therapy when he was around 6, mostly for “daddy” issues, and I felt exactly what you described.. That i wasn’t being heard, that i was brushed off as being overly protective or things weren’t as bad as i made them out to be.. none of this was ever said to me, but its the vibe i was getting. I was encouraged i was a great mother and doing the right things for my child, communicating with him well about his experiences and so on. He wasnt officially diagnosed with Anxiety as they don’t diagnose Anxiety that young bu that’s primarily what he was being treated for.. a 6 year old with Anxiety. By the suggestion of his therapist I withheld visitation from NPD, she was strong in her view point of, if my son didn’t want to go to his fathers for the weekend than don’t make him go, it was causing extreme anxiety for him be forced to go..So i didn’t make him go.. and NPD took me to court. NPD cleaned up his act and was the ideal father i had been begging him to be for the previous 7 years (my son was 7 by this point) and in 2018 he had hovered me back into an actual relationship (I’m telling you, they are master manipulators and are capable of doing the right thing, for short periods of time) My son’s therapist at the time, said Hes all good! This is what he wanted, for his mom and dad to be together as a family.. umm ok, was my response. Therapy ended.

It only took 2 years for NPD to destroy myself and my son. I tried to get him back into therapy through his Primary Care Physician.. and i started therapy myself. While i felt like i was being rescued and validated in my sessions, my son on the other hand had no changes or progress at all. I discussed this with my therapist and she suggested finding different therapist for him, but find one who was “Trauma Trained”.. <— that was the key term i needed to find the right fit!

He and I have been going weekly for almost a year now. He's recently, because of school dropped down to bi weekly but is still benefiting. I’ve found his therapist to be an asset for sure! Someone licensed and clinically trained who validates me as his mother and my overwhelming concerns for him, who listens to the weekly reports of the newest craziness and understands what is happening in my developing child’s brain, shes equipt to handle the trauma hes been through and I DO NOT feel like I’m a crazy person trying to constantly explain how my child is feeling because he doesn’t always have the capability to do it for himself. She can see it without me having to explain anything, she can explain it to me haha and that’s so empowering to have a partner to HELP me in counter parenting as i like to call it..(trying to do damage control for whatever he was exposed to or experienced during his visits) and someone who is as concerned for my sons well being and best interest as I am.. I’ve never had that before because my co parent is a NPD and completely incapable of putting our child’s Best Interests 1st.
 
My son enjoys his sessions, and while he doesn’t usually come out and communicate the way we adults do, shes able to read his ques and can see the trauma without my son having to verbalize everything hes been through. Its been a true blessing.

I hope you ladies find anything or something in my story and experiences helpful or useful! We are moms, we just want what is best for our children and we want them to be as healthy as possible, mentally as well as physically. Our children don’t know how to ask for help and they are as confused as we are most of the time by what they are experiencing.. I know how overwhelming “dealing” with my NPD is.. i can’t imagine how overwhelming it is for my child who’s brain just isn’t developed enough to process it all, and certainly not in a healthy way without help.

I hope you ladies will consider therapy for your children.

*I wish my own mother had put my emotional and mental needs higher on her priority list or i mean even at the bottom of the priority list at least then it would have at least been on there*  #isaidwhatisaid

[JenDine]

I'm glad you found a good therapist that is helping you and your child.  I will look for one too.  I had my daughter go to one for a few months but did not see it as helpful.  A good one takes some searching and trial so I will probably look for myself first and if find someone competent I will then have my kids meet them afterward.
I have been verbally abused often and my feelings have been disregarded so many times.  I felt I did not have much of a voice in y relationship.  Although I do not have a personality disorder that I know of, there must be something wrong with me to put up with what I did for so long.
I also am wondering, now that my son is 18, if I should share with him that his dad has BPD?  I would probably answer some questions he has about his dad's rapidly changing moods and occasionally angry tantrums. I suppose I should ask a therapist first?  My son is taking a psychology class so he might figure it out on his own.

[ConstantStateFFF]

I think that’s a brilliant idea. You deserve healing for yourself as well! It truely takes a toll on our mental health trying to be in a relationship with these disorders. You may also have PTSD, so many things can cause your body and mind to experience Trauma. Thing you wouldn’t even consider.. each and every person is different in how their body reacts to situations.. and when your body and mind stay in a Constant state of Fight, Flight or Freeze so much damage is being done in the way our brains fire signals. It can really change a person completely.

I find the more I learn about myself and the way my brain and body react to different triggers the more empowered I am.. I love knowledge especially mental health knowledge, it absolutely fascinates me.

Personally I think mental health conversations are so important especially with our children. Your 18year old is absolutely old enough to know about his father’s diagnosis. If he’s already taking a psychology class, having the information of his father’s diagnosis could  be really impactful… he’s being introduced to the workings of the mind right now.. you may find that giving him the information brings him a ton of relief having the validation of  Wow, ok that makes So Much Sense now! 

The more our children understand mental health, the more education (age appropriate of course) we provide them, the better they are able to communicate how they are truly feeling. If they understand that everyone’s brains work differently, they can start to be more aware of how reactions affect them or make them feel.

When my son was being treated for anxiety, I found a book on Amazon I believe, it was an age appropriate workbook he and I did together, introducing him to anxiety, what it meant and most importantly how to identify and verbalize to me when his worry was to overwhelming. He absolutely LOVED that workbook and would ask often to work through the book again as a refresher of sorts.  It gave tips and tricks for him on how to bring the anxiety (worry) level back down to a manageable level when mom wasn’t around to help him.

In my experience when your processing trauma your therapist is yours, once they have a good understanding of the situations you and your children have been through they could most likely then have a better recommendation for the children.

I won’t sugar coat it.. Therapy is scary. And it can be tough but it’s so worth it! Choose yourself and Choose your children.. you have to be in a good place to be able to give your children what they need.. since the reality of it is, unfortunately your their only option to get what they “need” for their mental health.

Best of luck to you dear! Stay strong and never give up! There Is light when you come out of the darkness you’ve been kept in.

[JenDine]

Thank you so much.  I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Today I am looking for a good divorce lawyer and soon a good therapist.  What a rough year. I do feel I will come out stronger and better for it but I am fearful of making mistakes as well.  I don't want to burden my friends too much so I really hope I find a good one.  If anyone knows a good therapist in the central coast of California then let me know.

[livednlearned]

to some extent this attitude might be due to puberty and related mood swings

Could he be reeling from his dad's suicide attempt?

Either way, something is happening that isn't good for him, or for you, and it isn't good for his future relationships. You have good mama instincts and it's great you're listening to them.

I can't recall if you mentioned he's seeing a therapist? Is that something you can do given your relationship with your ex?

The stuff you do now will bear fruit even if it doesn't seem like it's landing. My son is now 20 and I'm amazed at the things he internalized that I thought he was ignoring. He doesn't even recognize where some of these things came from, he just assumes they are things he's always believed about himself and others, whereas I remember the road he was going down. There can be light at the end of these tunnels!

I agree with others who recommend trauma-trained therapy if you can find it and afford it, either for you or for your son. EMDR works for some, and somatic experiencing therapy is another that can help. For childhood trauma, EMDR and other somatic therapies can be powerful because it's often hard to find language to describe what happened when trauma is all you've known for as long as you can remember. Trauma-based therapy helped me unhook my nervous system from sort of a mindset of constant vigilance. It's much easier to parent from a more grounded place.

Another thought if you haven't already come across it is Divorce Poison, because it categorizes how pathologic parenting manifests as parental alienation, which is pretty much standard operating for parents who have a personality disorder. Your son may be maladapting to how he feels about his dad's SI, and it's possible that your H is feeding other narratives that aren't helpful. It might not be the thing that's most impacting S12 but it's good to have in your toolkit just in case. The author addresses the full range of extreme tactics, which doesn't mean your ex engages all of them, but you may start to notice things happening, and once you notice them you can address them using the solutions presented in the book.

For example, my ex was relentless about undermining my credibility, to the point my son essentially had no one to trust because he knew his dad wasn't reliable. Setting aside my own frustrations about being undermined, not being able to trust a parent is pretty scary for a kid.

Divorce Poison helped me figure out ways to address the nuances between secrecy, privacy, withholding, misunderstanding, and an outright lie. You can't come out and say, "Your dad is lying," because that just keeps your kid in the middle, which is its own point of suffering for our kids.

So instead, as an example of what I learned from the book, my son I and would watch tv shows and I would ask a rhetorical question about whether so-and-so was keeping something private or lying, or something else. I would also present scenarios for my son to work through: If your friend comes over and asks if he can have something sweet and you say no, but there are popsicles in the freezer, is that lying? What if you forgot they were there? He was 11 or 12 when we were doing that and it de-fanged a lot of what my ex was trying to do. It sounds a bit corny but it had an impact.

With your situation, I would want to shine some light for S12 on why he won't ask his dad for what he wants. "Help me understand how come you feel this is hard to ask dad to do?" And really validate the feelings. "You feel dad won't listen? Wow. That's tough." And try to not rush into problem-solving until your son has had a chance to feel what he's really feeling. Our kids have a tendency to not really know what they feel, and have even less experience really acknowledging those feelings.

I can't tell you how hard it was for me to stay focused on what my son felt at first! To really hang in there and give him space to figure out how he felt. I'm still a work in progress but a lot better than 10 years ago.

When we first started to do this work, my son was desperate for validation. I spent most of his childhood rushing to solve things for him, which is ok parenting if there are two functioning parents, but in a home with BPD, not validating your child can be so isolating, enabling the trauma to pack a second punch. When it came to his dad, it was clear my son was broken-hearted about his dad, like real, deep, anguish. You have to be brave as a mom and let those feelings come to the surface and not try to smooth them over otherwise they go subterranean and stay in the basement where they can turn into darker emotions. Later, you can move to problem-solving. "Hey, remember when you said you didn't feel safe asking dad for this. I've been thinking. What if we brainstormed different ways we could handle this together. It might be harder right now when you're 12, but as you get older, you'll learn skills along the way. Counselors can also really help when you're trying to get from A to B in relationships that are challenging."

[Marianne-11]

Just quickly saying thank you for so many good insights here and taking the time to write and help. A lot of food for thought. We have a stomach flu situation here keeping me busy so I’ll come back when have more time to reply with thought. Take care everyone!