My ex wanted to keep me on the payroll, so to speak

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I was her gardener, handyman, house sitter, cat sitter, airport taxi, escort, consort, game player, trouble-shooter, cheerleader, baker, coffee-maker, pen pal, lost-keys-finder and gigolo. I was a valuable “employee”, a contractor of sorts, why would she give all this up willingly?

She had no intention of getting rid of me but instead use me until I was consumed, lost, or otherwise broken.  I was an object, a tool.  She wasn’t big on any maintenance so I was only slightly better off than the garden shovel left stuck in the mud in the backyard. 

She lived as a Hermit, I was just unfortunate enough to step into her snare.  Once ensnared she made it clear she was Queen, and demanded complete loyalty and obedience.  Perhaps if I put in more years in my subservient roles I would've been granted a boon of affection, but still unlikely.

If you wonder how you could be discarded so easily.  Simple, your ex found a new “contractor” to meet their needs (or possibly is just sick of you).  Your services are no longer needed.  No pink slip, no notice.  Just don’t let the screen door hit you in the rear on the way out.

I never got my payday, and had to write the whole year off as a “bad debt”.

[Ad Meliora]

I was her gardener, handyman, house sitter, cat sitter, airport taxi, escort, consort, game player, trouble-shooter, cheerleader, baker, coffee-maker, pen pal, lost-keys-finder and gigolo. I was a valuable “employee”, a contractor of sorts, why would she give all this up willingly?

She had no intention of getting rid of me but instead use me until I was consumed, lost, or otherwise broken.  I was an object, a tool.  She wasn’t big on any maintenance so I was only slightly better off than the garden shovel left stuck in the mud in the backyard. 

She lived as a Hermit, I was just unfortunate enough to step into her snare.  Once ensnared she made it clear she was Queen, and demanded complete loyalty and obedience.  Perhaps if I put in more years in my subservient roles I would've been granted a boon of affection, but still unlikely.

If you wonder how you could be discarded so easily.  Simple, your ex found a new “contractor” to meet their needs (or possibly is just sick of you).  Your services are no longer needed.  No pink slip, no notice.  Just don’t let the screen door hit you in the rear on the way out.

I never got my payday, and had to write the whole year off as a “bad debt”.

[Mutt]

I never got my payday, and had to write the whole year off as a “bad debt”.

I can relate with your post. In the context of putting up with a lot - it taught me to stand up for myself and not put up with that type of behavior - which is attractive when you stand up for yourself. You’ll hear I II f he can’t stick up to me then how is going to stick up for me I’m also referring to a non PD r/s.

Again, I’m sharing from my personal experience and what I went though so you’re mileage may vary but if I had stuck up for myself in the beginning i wouldn’t of been attracted to the type of behavior that she was exhibiting.

The experience taught me why was I was putting up with all of the bad behaviors. It was such a bad breaks up that I thought that I need time for myself to re-examine my patterns in r/s’s and what led me to this point and to not repeat it in the next.

Some people have a really hard time with being by themselves with the silence and without all of the external distractions. Like a train going down the tracks and all of the objects blurring by in your peripheral vision and they jump from one thing to the next one without pause because they’re no comfortable with stillness.

That being said, the pay day may not be immediate and it can be indirect and pay off in the long run if time is spent self reflecting and identifying areas that you can tweak. Boundaries in simple terms keep the good stuff in and the bad stuff out.

I took a long pause after my marriage and have attracted people that value me for me because my boundaries have filtered out the bad people or people that have good intentions but have bad behaviors. The first r/s after my marriage but I took a four year break and oven been with this woman for four years she respects me and I’ve had to defend boundaries a couple of times and I respect her as well.

That’s a part of the pay day that I got - it was an investment that took awhile to grow and I had to make a wise investment in myself but in time the dividends paid off.

[SinisterComplex]

The most important takeaway here is that the most important investment you will ever make is the investment you make in yourself. Just the same as the most important relationship that you will ever have is the one you have with yourself.

The more comfortable you get with being by yourself the more powerful your confidence becomes and as a result you are more likely to draw better quality people to you. However, to each their own. That is just my view of things.

Cheers and best wishes! 

-SC-

 

[Ad Meliora]

I can relate with your post. In the context of putting up with a lot - it taught me to stand up for myself and not put up with that type of behavior - which is attractive when you stand up for yourself. You’ll hear I II f he can’t stick up to me then how is going to stick up for me I’m also referring to a non PD r/s.

Again, I’m sharing from my personal experience and what I went though so you’re mileage may vary but if I had stuck up for myself in the beginning i wouldn’t of been attracted to the type of behavior that she was exhibiting.

I appreciate your perspective on this Mutt.  I began sticking up for myself early on, and she didn't like it or know how to handle it.  What she'd do is withdraw which now I'm not sure if it was Level 2 Behaviors of the BPD acting in frustration or her covert NPD method of control--it doesn't really matter.  At the time I thought she was just a non playing hard to get or who was easily put off.  I had no idea what BPD was, so this just made me try all the harder to make things work and in that I am sure that's how I got steamrolled and how she worked around my defenses (or boundaries).

I think what I'm showing here is an example of how we have to "stoop to their level" so to speak, and that's why people think they have BPD too.  We have to disorder our own thinking to try and understand just what is going on with them.  It never would've occurred to me that a 48 yr old woman had the emotional capacity of a 5 yr old, for example.

In the Behaviors: Projection section I found this quote and I think this sums up what I was experiencing as she projected her condition onto me.

Some adults who enter into relationships with borderlines feel brainwashed by the BP's accusations and criticisms. The techniques of brainwashing are simple: isolate the victim, expose them to inconsistent messages, mix with sleep deprivation, add some form of abuse, get the person to doubt what they know and feel, keep them on their toes, wear them down, and stir well. ~ Elyce M. Benham, M.S.

It was only upon taking this "pause" like you described that I've had the time to reflect and realize what was going on.  At the time I was in her magnetic vortex fighting for a handhold or toehold so I could anchor myself in some type of reality.

I hope to come out the other side like you did Mutt.  Attracting the right kind of people. I'm willing to wait too, of course it's more thrilling to be on the roller coaster ride of life, seeing things whiz by without much contemplation of the nature of reality/existence.  I'm not like my BPDex who needed constant thrills and excitement to keep her energized.  Always trying to create drama, even with me.  I didn't want to create drama, I wanted a romantic partner, therefore I was no fun.

Yes, SC, work on self is good.  I'm not in competition with anyone other than my past self.  I want to do better than that guy.  The one person I really want to have success is my future self, and I hope he's cool   But the only one who can do the actual act of "living" is my current self.  He can feel pain and pleasure and alter the outcomes of both the two other phantoms  (future and past).  If only he could alter the outcome of the Packer game last Sunday, now that would be something.

[SinisterComplex]

I appreciate your perspective on this Mutt.  I began sticking up for myself early on, and she didn't like it or know how to handle it.  What she'd do is withdraw which now I'm not sure if it was Level 2 Behaviors of the BPD acting in frustration or her covert NPD method of control--it doesn't really matter.  At the time I thought she was just a non playing hard to get or who was easily put off.  I had no idea what BPD was, so this just made me try all the harder to make things work and in that I am sure that's how I got steamrolled and how she worked around my defenses (or boundaries).

I think what I'm showing here is an example of how we have to "stoop to their level" so to speak, and that's why people think they have BPD too.  We have to disorder our own thinking to try and understand just what is going on with them.  It never would've occurred to me that a 48 yr old woman had the emotional capacity of a 5 yr old, for example.

In the Behaviors: Projection section I found this quote and I think this sums up what I was experiencing as she projected her condition onto me.

Some adults who enter into relationships with borderlines feel brainwashed by the BP's accusations and criticisms. The techniques of brainwashing are simple: isolate the victim, expose them to inconsistent messages, mix with sleep deprivation, add some form of abuse, get the person to doubt what they know and feel, keep them on their toes, wear them down, and stir well. ~ Elyce M. Benham, M.S.

It was only upon taking this "pause" like you described that I've had the time to reflect and realize what was going on.  At the time I was in her magnetic vortex fighting for a handhold or toehold so I could anchor myself in some type of reality.

I hope to come out the other side like you did Mutt.  Attracting the right kind of people. I'm willing to wait too, of course it's more thrilling to be on the roller coaster ride of life, seeing things whiz by without much contemplation of the nature of reality/existence.  I'm not like my BPDex who needed constant thrills and excitement to keep her energized.  Always trying to create drama, even with me.  I didn't want to create drama, I wanted a romantic partner, therefore I was no fun.

Yes, SC, work on self is good.  I'm not in competition with anyone other than my past self.  I want to do better than that guy.  The one person I really want to have success is my future self, and I hope he's cool   But the only one who can do the actual act of "living" is my current self.  He can feel pain and pleasure and alter the outcomes of both the two other phantoms  (future and past).  If only he could alter the outcome of the Packer game last Sunday, now that would be something.

ADM...amen on that brutha. BTW...I wasn't kidding in the other thread. I think you have a talent for writing and you are gifted with words and well spoken. Maybe a blog in your future or something of the sort? As to the Packer game...that was a dumpster fire S Show, but on both sides. Just an all around boring game, but tis the life of the NFL...Any Given Sunday. Or to pull a Forrest Gump...the NFL is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get ;-).

BTW...ADM I do pay close attention and just to reinforce you...I am confident you will come out on the other side better and stronger and you will attract the right people and better overall opportunities. You show growth in your posts and you will be just fine in time. You take leadership in engaging with the others. You show not only the will to help, but you also show the open-mindedness to learn and grow along side the others. You are getting out of this what you put into it. You put into action what I have embedded into many of my clients, co-workers, friends, family, and even fellow leaders over the years...Learn, Teach, Lead as the was something taught to me that I try to live by. Always keep the ideal of pay it forward in mind because that keeps the positive energy flowing.

#bropound

Cheers and best wishes! 

-SC-

[Cromwell]

I have felt this way, {used} perhaps it is true or partly so. The latter is less important to me these days as the relationship is gone and with it, these roles.

I disagree with some of the heavier systematic abuse of intentional sleep deprivation and so on. In the mainstream its a perspective from our side to choose to take, it is not in my case and I suspect lost cases reality.

These are Jane average ex girlfriends not ex special agents trained in psychological warfare. I was simply a bit weakened and malleable because i was in love and a bit of a push over, this is far from being the manchurian candidate.

I know the feeling though and state of anxiety generates these visions. The hurt is to focus on as this is what remains once they're gone. As SC says self investment take all those roles and do for yourself, what do you think of that idea?

[ILMBPDC]

I was her gardener, handyman, house sitter, cat sitter, airport taxi, escort, consort, game player, trouble-shooter, cheerleader, baker, coffee-maker, pen pal, lost-keys-finder and gigolo. I was a valuable “employee”, a contractor of sorts, why would she give all this up willingly?

She had no intention of getting rid of me but instead use me until I was consumed, lost, or otherwise broken.  I was an object, a tool.  She wasn’t big on any maintenance so I was only slightly better off than the garden shovel left stuck in the mud in the backyard. 

She lived as a Hermit, I was just unfortunate enough to step into her snare.  Once ensnared she made it clear she was Queen, and demanded complete loyalty and obedience.  Perhaps if I put in more years in my subservient roles I would've been granted a boon of affection, but still unlikely.

If you wonder how you could be discarded so easily.  Simple, your ex found a new “contractor” to meet their needs (or possibly is just sick of you).  Your services are no longer needed.  No pink slip, no notice.  Just don’t let the screen door hit you in the rear on the way out.

I never got my payday, and had to write the whole year off as a “bad debt”.

This is such a great analogy - and the "She wasn’t big on any maintenance" is absolutely perfect...my ex used me as a therapist, a lover, a teacher, a friend...but when I needed a friend, he was the most unempathetic person I had ever met. He didn't care about my needs in bed. He didn't care if I was having a bad day. He didn't think of me at all, unless he needed something (like a garden tool!) and it took me a long time to catch on.  In my case, he wasn't able to completely use me up because I made the "mistake" of calling him out on using me which prompted his final discard (and honestly I still have a hard time wrapping my head around his extreme response to me sharing my feelings, normal people would have a discussion).

I feel a lot like you do, just write it off and move on. I wish it was as easy as that, unfortunately he stirred up a lot of past pain that I am now dealing with. I actually think that is the one good thing that came of this relationship - I am finally addressing things I had ignored for too long. I am starting to be hopeful that this will be my last bad relationship, that I can heal from the past and maybe one day attract someone who isn't broken (though if I'm being honest I am still in the "I'm going to die alone" phase, I think maybe that's not guaranteed anymore)

[Cromwell]

So you were on the payroll.

The nature of work itself is exploitative this is a given {but let's stop there}

And its interesting that i haven't heard a single thing at all about what they gave either of you.

So is this how the story is to be. Completely used. They didn't give anything at all. You stuck with them {for however long} and got nothing out of the bargain.

Is this accurate?

[Ad Meliora]

I wasn't so easily brainwashed or controlled so she didn't know what to do with me--she'd just disappear.  The moral of the story is when someone withdraws continually, let them do it.   People with personality disorders will tell you that something isn't right.  You just have to listen, or listen better (to your gut/instincts).

If the situation ever presents again and the person seems interested then disappears, I'll let her.  If she shows back up, I'll have a nice luncheon or a cup of coffee and that will be the end of it.  Definitely not r/s material, no matter how good she looks, or what great excuses (stories) she tells as to why she blew me off.

It's like you and I noted ILM, they told us things weren't going to work out, we overrode them on that and it didn't work out too good for us.

[once removed]

I was her gardener, handyman, house sitter, cat sitter, airport taxi, escort, consort, game player, trouble-shooter, cheerleader, baker, coffee-maker, pen pal, lost-keys-finder and gigolo. I was a valuable “employee”, a contractor of sorts
...
I never got my payday, and had to write the whole year off as a “bad debt”.

serious question: what were you looking to get out of this deal?

[Turkish]

"We accept the love we think we deserve."

Prior to our only recycle, I had advocated with a national repair chain and saved her a $2k engine rebuild. She continued to treat me like  , juxtaposed with a week here and there of normality, yet with me WOE, awaiting the next outburst. What did I get out of it? I should have cut my losses and rebuilt.

Many years later, after kids and she abandoning me for her boy-toy, marrying him, then divorcing him, she asked me to loan her $25k to get her out of her credit card debt. I hate feeling used.

I said no, and realized that I felt used the whole time though maybe unaware, yet I got something out of it.  For me? An almost 11 years younger very pretty woman who was very into me as we all know pwBPD can be, until they aren't, shockingly to us. That was on the surface.

Yet I also chose to continue a relationship with a very troubled person, despite my instincts telling me at the time, "this is someone who's very troubled and may be looking for an exit, based upon what she's told you about past relationships and also in so many words is afraid of commitment."

[Ad Meliora]

serious question: what were you looking to get out of this deal?

Answer: A girlfriend, a partner, and possibly someone I would marry.  I mean, that's how I went into the "deal" and that's why I stayed in hoping, trying, and begging at times she'd come around.  I would do nearly anything for the love of my life, hence the expanded job description for that year.

Yet I also chose to continue a relationship with a very troubled person, despite my instincts telling me at the time, "this is someone who's very troubled and may be looking for an exit, based upon what she's told you about past relationships and also in so many words is afraid of commitment."--Turkish

I hear the nail being hit on the head from here Turkish.  Ditto.

[jaded7]

my ex used me as a therapist, a lover, a teacher, a friend...but when I needed a friend, he was the most unempathetic person I had ever met. He didn't care about my needs in bed. He didn't care if I was having a bad day. He didn't think of me at all, unless he needed something (like a garden tool!) and it took me a long time to catch on.  In my case, he wasn't able to completely use me up because I made the "mistake" of calling him out on using me which prompted his final discard (and honestly I still have a hard time wrapping my head around his extreme response to me sharing my feelings, normal people would have a discussion).

ILMBPDC...I felt the same way. I was always there for her to talk when she was upset, when she was happy, when she wanted to complain about her ex, when she forwarded his emails and texts to me to read and listen to her complain about, when she gave me 40 minutes to notice to come over and spend 4 hours in the cold building something for her. But if I called having a bad day, or just casual described something that'd happened at my business, immediate annoyance and cut off, or "I already told you to ____".

I once asked her for a hug, she turned to me looked me in the eye and said "No. Too needy". But if she wanted a hug? If she wanted to vent?

I really felt like I was used, in many ways, and having any needs of my own was forbidden.

[Cromwell]

There's alot of complaints here voiced about the ex. Good. This is recognition that the relationship had to go through a time frame of discovery to eventually figure out ultimately it is not the match.

There is someone out there for you that is. This much in all the uncertainty is a. Guarantee. Its moving on and finding that is the follow up from grieving what didn't work out. Focus on this optimistically rather than languish in the ashes of what fizzled out like a fast burning firecracker

[jaded7]

There's alot of complaints here voiced about the ex. Good. This is recognition that the relationship had to go through a time frame of discovery to eventually figure out ultimately it is not the match.

There is someone out there for you that is. This much in all the uncertainty is a. Guarantee. Its moving on and finding that is the follow up from grieving what didn't work out. Focus on this optimistically rather than languish in the ashes of what fizzled out like a fast burning firecracker

Yes. That is the path. Some days (today, for example) are much harder than others! For me, maybe others, it's about going within, finding myself again. I lost me, I lost who I know myself to be.

That involves diving into the family dynamics (and abuse) that had my mind in such a place that I believed, really believed (still do to some extent)

a) I was to blame for my mistreatment (because I'm 'bad')
b) deserved it (because I'm 'bad')
c) that is how somebody who loves you treats you (because family)
d) If I only try a little harder she'll be happy and feel loved

[Cromwell]

You need the courage to bypass and the courage to. Quit. There's the better match out there a lifestyle more conducive to happiness. It doesn't just fall into the lap it needs fighting for, searching seeking maybe a further litany of failed relationships just like this one.

Its hard to console on this board and The same time encourage a sense of discomfort. My grandparents were mental health nurses.

The patients eventually need booted out their beds they get too comfortable.

It takes empathy to know when to encourage the move towards tomorrow.

3.5 years melodoria. It's a. Failed relationship. There's no way to gloss it as a thing else. Dead. Moribund.

Yours is 1. 5 years? 2 years. 3.5?

Kill it off man. We in medicine will freeze off a squamous cell so it does not get a chance to replicate as pre cancerous.

Are you content with this misery and the scraps or reject it and say this year your going to search for something greater. I

And you won't need my support or anyone else's because you've built your own column. You changed and these posts are nothing more. Than historic artifacts of a bygone transition era

[ILMBPDC]

Yes. That is the path. Some days (today, for example) are much harder than others! For me, maybe others, it's about going within, finding myself again. I lost me, I lost who I know myself to be.

That involves diving into the family dynamics (and abuse) that had my mind in such a place that I believed, really believed (still do to some extent)

a) I was to blame for my mistreatment (because I'm 'bad')
b) deserved it (because I'm 'bad')
c) that is how somebody who loves you treats you (because family)
d) If I only try a little harder she'll be happy and feel loved

I feel this - I, too, lost who I am. Its not the first time. And I, too, have been exploring my own family dynamics and childhood trauma. In my own life, I was majorly neglected as a child, expected to raise my sisters from a young age, and had to deal with an alcoholic father, a (very likely) narcissistic mother and their codependency. It was just so much easier to survive by doing what they expected (keeping the peace, people pleasing, not standing up for myself) and being "good" to try and extract any amount of love I could. To this day, I feel unlovable. Unworthy. I keep trying to be "better" so that some day I will be worth loving. And yet, I am aware that from the outside, I look like I have it all together - a good, well paying career, nearly debt-free, great credit score, finishing up my masters degree in a month, pretty much just looks like I'm breezing though life...and yet I still don't feel worthy of love.  Which makes it easy for people like Mr BPD to latch on and take advantage.

So I am working on myself. I really think that is the most important thing here, especially for those of us with childhood abuse/neglect issues. Figuring out where your own sh*t lies and working to clean it up. I just wish it hadn't taken me 47 years to start doing it.

[Turkish]

I To this day, I feel unlovable. Unworthy. I keep trying to be "better" so that some day I will be worth loving. And yet, I am aware that from the outside, I look like I have it all together - a good, well paying career, nearly debt-free, great credit score, finishing up my masters degree in a month, pretty much just looks like I'm breezing though life...and yet I still don't feel worthy of love.  Which makes it easy for people like Mr BPD to latch on and take advantage.

Except for the MA/MS, I'm about the same.  I hear you   

My mom shamed me, not badly that I felt, but still into my 40s. My ex shamed me in the r/s. Then later after the split tried to give my financial advice due to she being involved in an insurance MLM. Yah, no thanks, I'm OK.

It's in most cases Projection

[jaded7]

I feel this - I, too, lost who I am. Its not the first time. And I, too, have been exploring my own family dynamics and childhood trauma. In my own life, I was majorly neglected as a child, expected to raise my sisters from a young age, and had to deal with an alcoholic father, a (very likely) narcissistic mother and their codependency. It was just so much easier to survive by doing what they expected (keeping the peace, people pleasing, not standing up for myself) and being "good" to try and extract any amount of love I could. To this day, I feel unlovable. Unworthy. I keep trying to be "better" so that some day I will be worth loving. And yet, I am aware that from the outside, I look like I have it all together - a good, well paying career, nearly debt-free, great credit score, finishing up my masters degree in a month, pretty much just looks like I'm breezing though life...and yet I still don't feel worthy of love.  Which makes it easy for people like Mr BPD to latch on and take advantage.

So I am working on myself. I really think that is the most important thing here, especially for those of us with childhood abuse/neglect issues. Figuring out where your own sh*t lies and working to clean it up. I just wish it hadn't taken me 47 years to start doing it.

Right there with you. From the outside, nobody would know. I have a Ph.D. from a top institution, taught at a very top institution, am very outgoing and confident, can interact with anybody and happily do, am very sensitive and many people come to me and appreciate my being able to listen and help them think through things, I've had two different businesses, I'm super fit, play guitar pretty well, and really knowledgeable about many things (took the Foreign Service exam on a whim when in grad school, no prep at all, and passed- it had at the time a 3% pass rate for people who had prepared for it), I've been interviewed many times for my unique expertise in my area, and give talks to various organizations. I was an executive at a national company with millions of dollars budget in my area, and hundreds under me...and yet, and yet...

My ex told me I was uncultured (I read everything, study and know classical music really well, listen to the BBC and NPR always, read multiple news outlets), she told me I was a sh**ty businessperson (many hundreds of people who told me I changed their lives would disagree) and called my business stupid, told me I was a sh**ty marketer. Called me a child because I didn't keep a Google calendar (I never missed a meeting with anyone), told me I was a sh**ty driver and she was never going to ride with me again (I've never had an accident, took race car training with Porsches on a racetrack and excelled at it)

And somehow I believed her. Or needed her not to believe those things, so I tried to prove to her I wasn't these things. And her words and her actions (yelling, name calling) have touched something very deep within me, and that has caused me pain like I can't describe.

Childhood sexual abuse, rejection by my family- my mother really didn't like me, and was also afraid of me...she admitted this to me when I was in my 20s. And she said "I regret that", not I'm sorry for that- just like my ex would never apologize either, the exact same words when I told her I couldn't take the yelling: "I regret that". See what's going on here?

Thanks, just venting. Been a long day. I hear you, is what I'm trying to say. I find your posts helpful...

[Turkish]

My ex told me through email that "a woman of character deserves a man of character. In that, you failed." I stopped responding after that even though she lived with us another 4 months.

I was previously impugned plenty of times... "a real man would do x,y and z..."

We tolerate it did to emotional investment. Do we feel ourselves on a "one- down" dynamic to please someone who can never be pleased because of how they feel about themselves?

Why tolerate it? For me, fear of loss. And I had an out before we had kids.

[Ad Meliora]

My ex told me through email that "a woman of character deserves a man of character.

You lost me at "a woman of character..." [in referring to your BPDex] ha, ha.  So really, what did she deserve?  Certainly not you as her lender and bail bondsman along with the other roles.

You know, they did put us down and while it's clear now, why did we tolerate it?  We can list the reasons but I think you're all getting warmer here as there was something in our past, in our FOO that said this type of behavior is okay.  This type of behavior is acceptable in a r/s and from loved ones (maybe only certain ones, at certain times, maybe only the "black sheep"?).

My father liked to use demeaning language and put-downs.  It just unconsciously rolled of his tongue.  You know, when I think about it, I probably would've preferred a whack to the back of the head with his open hand, knowing he didn't think of me as lesser in some respect.  I could've rubbed my head and that bruise would heal relatively quickly.  Better than that criticism sitting there in the recesses of your mind, you get into a r/s with someone with BPD and they find that sweet spot, the language that works, to keep you on the hook.  Manipulate you like never before.

[once removed]

Answer: A girlfriend, a partner, and possibly someone I would marry.  I mean, that's how I went into the "deal" and that's why I stayed in hoping, trying, and begging at times she'd come around.  I would do nearly anything for the love of my life, hence the expanded job description for that year.

i think my point (forgive me, i was in need of sleep at the time) was that this is a narrative of someone who gave, and gave, and gave, with hope of receiving something in return, who didnt receive that thing(s) in return. ostensibly a very one sided relationship.

the point, in that, is to challenge your conception of a healthy relationship.

i would stipulate that for you, there was a payoff. it may not be obvious. it may not be what you were hoping for. it may not have been something directly from her. but there was something that encouraged you to continue doing it, or else, why would you have?

i would also challenge you in terms of your exs perception. was her goal to milk you for all you were worth (its an open question; it could have been). if she were posting to a forum, how would it read? would it read similarly?

I think what I'm showing here is an example of how we have to "stoop to their level" so to speak, and that's why people think they have BPD too.  We have to disorder our own thinking to try and understand just what is going on with them.  It never would've occurred to me that a 48 yr old woman had the emotional capacity of a 5 yr old, for example.

this is dysfunctional coping, Ad Meliora, not something any of us have to do.

i will not bore you with the "what it takes" to be with someone with BPD, but none of the literature would suggest stooping to their level, or giving what you get. its a way that you chose to cope, and i chose to cope, and probably the best that either of us could have done at the time. if we want to attract people that are adults in adult bodies, its something i think we have to own. i think youre getting that.

[Turkish]

My ex learned that from her parents. Mutual shaming.

[Ad Meliora]

the point, in that, is to challenge your conception of a healthy relationship.

It wasn't one, that's why I called it quits.  She was excellent at excuses.  It was always a Wimpy scenario:  "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday, for a Hamburger today".  That can go on for some time if the person is convincing.  She was supremely convincing.

i would also challenge you in terms of your exs perception. was her goal to milk you for all you were worth (its an open question; it could have been). if she were posting to a forum, how would it read? would it read similarly?--Once Removed

I would welcome this.  She was a great orator, actor, and a musician.  She could recite memorized lines well, and could come up with a defense/excuse on the dime.  Quite admirable, really.  I have posted that if she would tell the story I would be captivated and say "Yeah, yeah, that's how it was, that guy was a real a-hole. Wait, are you talking about me?...Yeah, you must be right."  With all of this, she could not write.  I wrote her poetry, she said that's nice.  And at one point wrote me three lines which the third line was "and stuff".

I think you've brought this up before and you're getting at it again in the other thread.  There's always a grain of truth in what our exes did or said even about throwing the problems onto us.  She said that my anxiety was the/my problem, she was right, but the anxiety I was talking about was linked to her behaviors (disappearing) and triggering that fear of abandonment I already knew was within me.

To your specific question, this is how she would tell it.

"I never made him do any of it.  He did those things, my landscaping and house sitting, etc... because he wanted to and I was fine with it.  Did I mention that I wanted those things done or needed them done? Maybe? I don't recall.  But I definitely didn't put a gun to his head, he did it on his own volition."

The payoff never came.  It was the idea of the potential (unrealized) r/s , what I spoke of in my 15 month update--that would've been the payoff.  Tremendous potential, like I have never seen.  Wasted.  I listened to her, I believed her.   She believed herself when she told me things that proved later to be untrue.

I summarized my roles, but that was over the course of a year. It looks completely one-sided, but I got Star Wars T-shirts and she was good in bed.  So yeah, maybe that would be enough for some as a payday.  Time ran out, her stories didn't add up.  I drew the line in the sand, and that was it.  She was done with me, I think, long before I gave up.

[Ad Meliora]

if she were posting to a forum, how would it read? would it read similarly? --Once Removed

One other thing she would say:  "He was fantastic in bed!  The best I ever had! I regularly screamed so loud the neighbors heard, it was kindofa thing"

Sidenote:  Where's that narcissism test Grumpy? 
Sidenote to sidenote:  3 out of 40

[jaded7]

I II f he can’t stick up to me then how is going to stick up for me I’m also referring to a non PD r/s.

... you’re mileage may vary but if I had stuck up for myself in the beginning i wouldn’t of been attracted to the type of behavior that she was exhibiting.

The experience taught me why was I was putting up with all of the bad behaviors.

I took a long pause after my marriage and have attracted people that value me for me because my boundaries have filtered out the bad people or people that have good intentions but have bad behaviors. The first r/s after my marriage but I took a four year break and oven been with this woman for four years she respects me and I’ve had to defend boundaries a couple of times and I respect her as well.

This is a great thread! Multiple topics interweaving.

This part, the "if I had stuck up for myself..." and (here, or somewhere else, I can't remember now) she "would respect me".

I have struggled with this mightily and gone over many times with my therapist. If I had put up more clear boundaries, if I had shown real anger and refusal to take her treatment (like kicking her out, or hanging up on her) would she have respected me more?

As my therapist says, do you want a relationship where you have to constantly defend yourself against gaslighting, lies, yelling, name calling, ghosting and disrespect of your boundaries in order to earn respect?
    That is a solid NO for me.

Yet, I struggle with the guilt of not standing up for myself more. I just was not in a place where I even understood that I needed to. Her anger seemed so genuine, her lies and blaming so real...I honestly felt like I had done something wrong, and in my life when I do something wrong I take responsibility for it.

I thought relationships were based on mutual respect and support.

THIS is the piece of the tent the camel's nose got under, if you understand my reference to the Arabic (I think) expression.

Yet, as my therapist has pointed out, I DID set boundaries, more than a few times. Very clear boundaries, as in "I'm not ready to talk to you yet, I will contact you later in the week" text (sent because I didn't want her to think I was ghosting here, ignoring here...relational, right?) that was violated within 7 seconds with more blaming me for her outburst a couple days before. ('If you hadn't...then this would not have happened'. Passive voice, I caused her to show up announced when I told her I call her after an event, etc. etc, yelling at me until 4 in the morning.)

Other boundaries...violated within seconds.

[ILMBPDC]

Thanks, just venting. Been a long day. I hear you, is what I'm trying to say. I find your posts helpful...

Thanks jaded, it helps me to write them, to clarify my own thoughts and feelings - and I'm glad someone finds help in them as well.

[Turkish]

@Reply 25.

My ex often told me this. That sometimes I needed to tell her to "knock it off," as if I were a parent. She told me that her younger brother, a teenager over a decade her junior, was good at this.

And... "sometimes I feel like I'm The Man in our relationship." I wanted to quip, "you mean an overbearing, controlling  ? The kind of man you say you don't like due to your cheating and abusive father?"

Yet I didn't say that. Maybe I should have to get to the root emotions of how she really felt. I'll admit I was often milquetoast in order to keep peace, but that's how I was trained given my mother.

It's a good match at first... until it isn't, and dysfunction on both sides is results in a dynamic that isn't easily fixed.

[Ad Meliora]

My ex often told me this. That sometimes I needed to tell her to "knock it off," as if I were a parent. She told me that her younger brother, a teenager over a decade her junior, was good at this.

...It's a good match at first... until it isn't, and dysfunction on both sides is results in a dynamic that isn't easily fixed.

Thanks everyone for participating.  What we do for love, eh?  That's the gist of it.  Thank you especially Turkish for your perspective on this.  You can see your insight has been helpful to several others as well as me.  My ex was trying to give me pointers, "When I get like this, you just have to let me be alone.." etc... One pointer wasn't going to do it.  I needed a 14,000 page manual, with pictures and diagrams to figure out my ex! (haha)

[Turkish]

I need someone to lead me and guide me

Said by someone who stated several times, "I don't like to be controlled!" She was really talking about how she viewed the marriage of her parents.

When a close friend told me later that he saw us as a "daddy-daughter" dynamic, I was horrified, yet not surprised as I had kind of arrived at that conclusion myself. I was almost 37 when we met, and she was 26.

When she went out on me, she did so with a 21 year old college football jock. After they got married and he moved in,  the conflict ensued promptly. He was being who he was, a 22 year old dude. So role-reversal, she ended up mothering him, oblivious to the likely result, frustrated and angry that he didn't meet her expectations of him despite having hotly dated for over a year. I knew a lot because she confided in me (vented), and I listened dispassionately.

She was frustrated by me also not being who she thought I would/could be for her. Substitute "him" for "her" for the ladies here.  

What resulted in Puppy Turkish growing up, so to speak, was realizing why I didn't see it. Yet I was attracted to the dynamic. I like to think, "no more!" But I can still feel it a little.