PwBPD specific attraction to narcissists

[Depression = 72% of members]

Here we go the can opener.

Its talked about widely {except for here}

It makes sense to me theoretically. They are failed narcissists, it stands to reason they would admire a partner with the traits they covet

Your thoughts.

[Cromwell]

Here we go the can opener.

Its talked about widely {except for here}

It makes sense to me theoretically. They are failed narcissists, it stands to reason they would admire a partner with the traits they covet

Your thoughts.

[Cromwell]

Maybe it's only fair i start off and not be so glib open ended.

Narcissist is the 2021 usurped bogeyman term no one wants to get remotely near it's pariah status. As. Much as cultural popularised trends its meaning in objective science is distored.

Narcissism is not by itself a. Disorder. Narcissism is functional and healthy to an extent it exists within all. Like anything else, healthy in moderation and part of wider development.

Who will have the backbone to admit narcissistic traits in second place. Bevause I beat you to it and claim first?

Im fine with it because im. Savvy to the literate and terminology rather than cultural distortions. Im a scientist not a social scientist but nonetheless able to make sense of the fundamentals.

I gave direction and inspiration to my ex. Lock and key. A. Good much in. That regard. She was clueless. Directionless. Hesitant. Identity devoid. I supplied alot that was missing.

Sex and nights out on the town. Let's face it, not exactly an irreplaceable skill to offer, nearly anyone can.

I was a professional pastry chef. One night i taught her to make a simple Victoria sponge cake. Its the start you give any prodigy. Within a few hours her mother and entire social network was told she was now a pastry chef.

Enamoured but simultaneously feeling.

Sad. Sad. Sad.

For her.

I hope thats open and honest enough as far as the rules of forum stipulations go

Your turn

[grumpydonut]

There are healthy narcissistic traits - healthy as they help to set boundaries - then there is unhealthy narcissism.

Borderlines see themselves as helpless victims of life, while narcissists are deeply wounded and insecure people who attempt to hide this through projecting the opposite.

They have almost identical cores - inferiority, "not enough", and a sense of helplessness - but deal with them in different ways.

It would make sense that they would attract each other - one wants to be re-parented, the other wants total admiration. But it also seems apparent that that would eventually destroy each other.

[Ad Meliora]

It would make sense that they would attract each other - one wants to be re-parented, the other wants total admiration. But it also seems apparent that that would eventually destroy each other.

The fragmented/disorganized mind meets the self-obsessed mind = Kaboom!

Jaded7's ex wanted the dishes on the table at 8:54pm, at 9:07pm she yelled at him for putting the dishes on the table.  The BPD mind knows not what it wants at any given moment.  To generalize is to speculate, the end result is Kaboom, as Grumpy pointed out the pwuBPD cannot maintain relationships...end of story.

I'll tell you what someone with BPD does not want--at least not long term--and this is drawing on my own experience.  They do not want someone with a strong self-concept, someone who has boundaries and knows how to keep them, someone who will hold them accountable,  or someone with a good memory for things said.

Basically someone who will keep them in check and say, "No, this kind of behavior is unacceptable in a relationship (or in general)."

Adults understand that they are not going to be lifted up by putting other people down.  Children don't, nor do Adults who regress to that child-like state.

[once removed]

Who will have the backbone to admit narcissistic traits in second place.

i dont look at the DSM description of NPD and NPD traits and see myself much, if at all.

i looked into narcissism, as it applies to myself, a lot, in my recovery, and it informed it a great deal. it all started with the term "narcissistic wound", which doesnt really have much to do with big n narcissism, and more or less means "ego wound", but has strong implications for all of us and how, and whether, we recover.

i also recall that when i was going through my breakup, i had a strong need to believe that everything my ex was doing revolved around me. what i mean by that is hard to explain, but, for example, i needed, badly, to believe that her profile pictures were posted to gain my attention, that the fact that her new boyfriend looked strikingly like me was about her difficulty getting over me - there were a lot of things, big and small, that would hurt me, and id spin them in the most positive way to suggest that it all had to do with her struggling to get past me. i posted about it at the time, and a former member actually suggested i look into NPD 

it is embarrassing, in retrospect. my explanation is that i went from feeling unique and special to feeling uniquely unspecial and was struggling to cope with that...as many of us do.

we have a very popular thread here. its a workshop on "from idealization to devaluation - why we struggle". a member that was very popular, that went by the handle "2010" contributed to it, and talked a great deal about the "lonely child" schema. members here, overwhelmingly identified with it. i certainly did, myself. when it was pointed out that the lonely child schema is, in fact, a narcissistic schema, everyone went quiet.

its a long read, but id encourage everyone participating in this thread to read it: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161524.0

along the way in my recovery, i learned four things that were very humbling, but ultimately helpful.

1. we mate with our emotional equals.
2. 50% of romantic partners of a person with bpd have a personality disorder themselves
3. most of us were not with someone that would qualify for a diagnosis of BPD
4. the prevalence of people with NPD traits romantically pairing with someone with BPD traits is legendary

i think those things have a lot of bearing on us, as a support group, if we want to help each other get to the bottom of our relationship, and learn the lessons that we want to take into future relationships. i see it all the time: if your ex ever suggested you have a mental illness, that must be projection, yet, thats what all of us here are doing.

codependency, which a lot of us are quick to latch onto, because its less stigmatized, has a lot of overlap with both BPD and NPD. it has many of the traits of BPD, and underlying is a need to feel one up and superior in a relationship, to someone who is weaker.

i know now that for me, that had a lot to do with the fact that i couldnt cope with rejection and breakups of the past, and it put me in a psychologically much stronger position to feel that i was with someone that was "incapable" of leaving me. i know now, that the fact that she was capable, was what hurt so much.

i know now that im a highly sensitive person with a degree of need to be mirrored and loved for the reasons i want to be loved. its something i will always need to reality check, and compensate for.

i can look at any of these things under the umbrella of codependency, narcissism, or a highly sensitive person, without overly attaching to any of them, and see what i couldnt see at the time, and how to have a healthier relationship in the future.

for anyone reading, you dont have to be a capital N narcissist to gain a great deal of insight as to why you are struggling, by learning the differences between healthy and unhealthy narcissism.

[Ad Meliora]

i dont look at the DSM description of NPD and NPD traits and see myself much, if at all.

Yes Once, what you point out is at the core of it.  We can use these guidelines to assess behaviors.  It's the "yardstick" we all can use.  Many of us have been through therapy and these conditions weren't the driver of our personalities.  Our BPD partners likely will not ever willingly participate in therapy or continue it, so how would we truly know other than using the DSM measuring tape and empirically observing their behaviors?

I see it as fair to say, "There must be something wrong with all of us since we got into a r/s with someone w/BPD and stayed for a bit".  But I see this as an oversimplification and glaringly obvious, as we have admitted to our faults and are learning to accept them.

I read some of the thread you linked to, it's good and over 4 pages long.  Now I regret posting on Cromwell's thread here since you have invited us to go into a deep dark rabbit hole.  I appreciate that you have the perspective to remember that this was discussed.  I read through 2010's post.  I think these words are interesting as he speaks to the "Lonely Child"

In this bond, both people bring core trauma to the relationship. Mirroring reenacts the earliest childhood experiences to rise up and emerge into consciousness.

In idealization, there is a dual identification and projection for both people that they have found a perfect love- however, one partner (the “lonely child”) does not yet realize that the other partner (the abandoned child= Borderline) has no whole self- and is utilizing a fantasy of a part-time good in order to fuse with the partner's part time good and become one.

The lonely child has spent much of their life becoming “one.”  When a lonely child finds an abandoned child, both parties feel needed. However, rather than truly loving the individuality of both parties- the sad, fantasy aspect of mirroring magnifies the unhealthy *needs* of both people.

This is some of the disaster we all witness and experience.  I thought I wouldn't necessarily score on the Lonely Child test that Skip whipped up on the thread, but I came back as 1.9 (1.5 being "normal" whatever that truly means).  If we use that as the "ruler" in this situation I'm going to be sucked into the scenario presented by 2010.

I didn't see the discussions in that thread that led to your #2 and #3 conclusions.  Is that just something you came across along the way?  So you would say 50% of the people on this list have BPD themselves and more than 50% of their partners do not have BPD?  That is what I'm reading in points 2 & 3.  That's interesting.

[grumpydonut]

its a long read, but id encourage everyone participating in this thread to read it: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161524.0

That "lonely child" schema hit hard. That describes me perfectly. I've often told my therapist in therapy that I attracted my BPD through wearing a mask because I don't think my true self is worthy of love. And that mask definitely would have appeared narcissistic to her - arrogant, dominant, etc - as I basically mirror the preliminary behaviour of my Mum's first bf (who was a classic NPD). I do this because, well, Mum loved him, so that must be who I have to be to get love. Definitely can't be me, as that version was rejected in favour of him!

Also, where did you find evidence for this:

50% of romantic partners of a person with bpd have a personality disorder themselves

I often pride myself on my ability to read others, and this statistic definitely doesn't match my perception of those who post about their BPD exes - either here, on reddit, Quora or FB.

Also! While I never score high on NPD or BPD tests, I did just score 3.8 on that lonely child test 

[grumpydonut]

Also also 

The term lonely child seems to be associated with narcissism. But, because it scared me, I just did another narcissistic personality test, and I scored close to zero.

How do I make sense of that? Is there a second cluster of people "lonely child" is associated with?

[Ad Meliora]

Also! While I never score high on NPD or BPD tests, I did just score 3.8 on that lonely child test 

Let's form the "Lonely Child Camp" over here I'm going to plant a  because I'm not sure what it all means either, but I am happy to join the encampment and be Lonely Together!

Do you have a link to the narcissistic test Grumpy?  Let's air them out.

[grumpydonut]

I did this one:

https://www.psycom.net/narcissistic-personality-disorder-test

[Cromwell]

Grumpy one explanation I'd offer is you are a college student in psychology and know the mechanics of point scores behind the tests. I have to sometimes use POMS2 and I've learned how to completely skew the results to however I'd want them to. There is a. Correlation between people getting higher scores in IQ tests the more they do, it does not mean their IQ has increased they just more confident and experienced at doing the style of questions.

[grumpydonut]

Hi Cromwell,

Yeah, could be a possibility. But I always strive to answer these things honestly, so I don't think it's that. I don't exude narcissistic tendencies. If anything, I'd say I'm closer to borderline that narcissistic.

I look forward to what more Once can tell us about the lonely child.

[ILMBPDC]

along the way in my recovery, i learned four things that were very humbling, but ultimately helpful.

1. we mate with our emotional equals.
2. 50% of romantic partners of a person with bpd have a personality disorder themselves
3. most of us were not with someone that would qualify for a diagnosis of BPD
4. the prevalence of people with NPD traits romantically pairing with someone with BPD traits is legendary

This is interesting and, yes, eye opening.
I think I agree with #1- I've come to find my emotions are all over the place now that I am off my antidepressants - very much like what I've seen described by BPDs. I remember feeling like we understood each other, that we knew each other's pain - both of us had been hurt, both felt broken. Both with abandonment issues. The biggest difference is that he had the ability to flick a switch and cut me off with no looking back.  Having said that, I sometimes wonder if I have a PD - therapists say no so I guess I'll go with that. I admittedly show a symptom of two but nowhere near the threshold.

Now the NPD/BPD thing is interesting to me (I haven't referenced thread but plan to)- I read about that way back when he told me he was BPD. It struck me because he had told me way before that his ex-wife was NPD. I guess a big part of it is when the BPD idealizes the NPD, it feeds the NPD.
Actually, here, this is from a Quora post I saved some time ago:
"People with borderline personality traits are subconsciously looking to be reparented, they desperately crave security and saving from their own suffering, emptiness and self doubt.

People with traits high in narcissism tend to (but not always) project an air of confidence and worldliness, they know how to do things and get things without fear, they seem like a real adult to people with bpd, who are still pushed around by their emotions and paralyzed by fear and confusion. Someone who seems to actually have their sh*t together (a rarity in their own life) is exactly the kind of mentor they have always needed.

The narcissistic person upon noticing the way the person with BPD looks up to them feels a huge ego boost, they will begin doing things in order to secure more and more attention which will elicit greater and greater idealization from the borderline individual, they basically feed each others desires until it turns into fireworks."

There's more in the post, about how the relationship ultimately breaks down and such, but I found it to be a fascinating dynamic.
What struck me most was the second paragraph because, while I'm in no way narcissistic, I know Mr BPD saw me as having my sh*t together, that I was a "real adult" and a mentor - he basically alluded to it a few times, that he "wanted what I have", that he was "jealous of my success".  Little did he know I was an emotional mess in my own right     

Makes me wonder if I wasn't such a mess, where we would be right now. Honestly, if I was stronger emotionally I wouldn't have put up with his crap anyway, so I guess I'd still be single but he'd be pining over me 

[Ad Meliora]

1. we mate with our emotional equals.
2. 50% of romantic partners of a person with bpd have a personality disorder themselves
3. most of us were not with someone that would qualify for a diagnosis of BPD
4. the prevalence of people with NPD traits romantically pairing with someone with BPD traits is legendary

ILMBPDC and I have had a discussion of just what it is that our BPDex's did to us with their mirroring, etc...It triggers a "self-love" that is inside of us where we are essentially trying to love ourselves via our BPDex.  It's so complicated I can't really  put words to it, but it relates to the emptiness of our ex's and pulling us in and mirroring our own wants and drives back at us.   What I'm talking about here doesn't relate to any dictionary definition of narcissism or any other term that I've yet seen developed.  Yet, it was something I experienced.

I am rejecting all of Once's four points and replacing them with a set of my own.  These are open for discussion and I would encourage you to submit your own as well.

1)  The pwBPD is an Emotional Child who can't handle their own emotions let alone understand yours.  This makes them a volatile and unstable person, incapable of higher emotional states such as empathy or true love.

2) They seek out people that have something they lack.  In my case it was my Self-Concept and self-confidence.  She thought (as many others do) she could get it by cutting me down and taking it from me.  That's not how it works.

3) The Monster (Mr Hyde, etc...) wants to destroy you.  Once that emerges it cannot be negotiated with or otherwise cajoled. It wants to annihilate whoever is in it's path.  You being their romantic partner are likely the prime target.

4)  They have some control, enough to change their behaviors or seek help.  Most chose not to.

Self-Concept, Self-Confidence, Self-Control, Self-Awareness should not be confused with a term derived from the Greek God Narcissus.  When I see the prior traits in others I feel inspired, rather than threatened.  I don't need to "take" it from them.  I need to aspire to be more like that, to develop more of that within myself.

If there's any Greeks I find inspiring it's the philosophers like Socrates.  It's alleged he went around saying "Know Thyself, Know Thyself..." People would ask him, "Do you know yourself?".  He'd reply "No, but I know this not knowing..."

My BPD ex showed traits of covert or introverted narcissism. It wouldn't surprise me if she was looking for ways to further develop that and use it for further manipulation or better her, already advanced skills, of story-telling.

I took a test similar to Grumpy's.  I scored 3 out of 40 or in the bottom 6% of narcissists.  Now if I retook it, and more honestly answered some of the questions on leadership, let's say, I probably would be in the  6-10 range otherwise known as "normal".

So I shared my results, and Grumpy's his.  How about your's Cromwell, you seem to have a keen interest in the subject.  Where do you come out?

[ILMBPDC]

ILMBPDC and I have had a discussion of just what it is that our BPDex's did to us with their mirroring, etc...It triggers a "self-love" that is inside of us where we are essentially trying to love ourselves via our BPDex.  It's so complicated I can't really  put words to it, but it relates to the emptiness of our ex's and pulling us in and mirroring our own wants and drives back at us.   What I'm talking about here doesn't relate to any dictionary definition of narcissism or any other term that I've yet seen developed.  Yet, it was something I experienced.

I felt seen. I felt like he was the first person to understand me, finally. That desire to be seen, to be loved for me, the desire to have someone see and understand my shadows and still want me...its strong. The realization that it was mirroring was a complete mindf*** to me. And it was one of the hardest things to let go of - I'm not sure I have fully let go actually.

I am rejecting all of Once's four points and replacing them with a set of my own.  These are open for discussion and I would encourage you to submit your own as well.

1)  The pwBPD is an Emotional Child who can't handle their own emotions let alone understand yours.  This makes them a volatile and unstable person, incapable of higher emotional states such as empathy or true love.

2) They seek out people that have something they lack.  In my case it was my Self-Concept and self-confidence.  She thought (as many others do) she could get it by cutting me down and taking it from me.  That's not how it works.

3) The Monster (Mr Hyde, etc...) wants to destroy you.  Once that emerges it cannot be negotiated with or otherwise cajoled. It wants to annihilate whoever is in it's path.  You being their romantic partner are likely the prime target.

4)  They have some control, enough to change their behaviors or seek help.  Most chose not to.

I never saw #3.  If I had it might have been easier to let go. I 100% concur with the rest.

[Ad Meliora]

Actually, here, this is from a Quora post I saved some time ago:
"People with borderline personality traits are subconsciously looking to be reparented, they desperately crave security and saving from their own suffering, emptiness and self doubt.

People with traits high in narcissism tend to (but not always) project an air of confidence and worldliness, they know how to do things and get things without fear, they seem like a real adult to people with bpd, who are still pushed around by their emotions and paralyzed by fear and confusion. Someone who seems to actually have their sh*t together (a rarity in their own life) is exactly the kind of mentor they have always needed.

The narcissistic person upon noticing the way the person with BPD looks up to them feels a huge ego boost, they will begin doing things in order to secure more and more attention which will elicit greater and greater idealization from the borderline individual, they basically feed each others desires until it turns into fireworks."

There's more in the post, about how the relationship ultimately breaks down and such, but I found it to be a fascinating dynamic.
What struck me most was the second paragraph because, while I'm in no way narcissistic, I know Mr BPD saw me as having my sh*t together, that I was a "real adult" and a mentor - he basically alluded to it a few times, that he "wanted what I have", that he was "jealous of my success". 

So one thing I didn't get was the "love-bombing" that many of you got.  I got the "cold shoulder" and pulling-away and getting "stood up" repeatedly.  So these are traits of both Quiet BPD and introverted NPD, it's hard to say what's at work.  I did get some cool T-shirts and a candy bar filled with THC ,which was legally purchased.   

If anything in this r/s I did the love bombing, I thought she had her sh*t together.  I never got the "ego boost".  I never got anything really other than a "Meh, that's nice". I often got nothing, silence.  If I would solicit a response it was a put-down or sarcasm or criticism.  Yet I was addicted somehow.  I tried harder and harder to please her.

[rob66]

Another Lonely Child here! Wow. It's one thing to know it; I've had hunches and realizations about it, but it's quite another thing to read it as a descriptive/prescriptive terms, to hear it expressed concretely. I even knew that these deep-rooted thought patterns affected my relationships, but understanding why I might have been so validated by my ex because of it is insightfully profound. It makes a lot of sense.

[ILMBPDC]

Christ on a cracker, so much of that thread could have been written about my relationship.
Definitely the Lonely Child aspects, definitely the point about "*Both need saving* Both need attachment to stave off the pain of being alone."  I actually thought that because we understood each other's pain and loneliness it would bring us closer together and we could heal each other. I am not a dumb person, I really don't know why I expected that to be the case but at the time it seemed to make sense. And his love bombing made me feel wanted, desired, loved, whole, for the first time in a really long time. 
I recognize this was a messed up dynamic from the start. I've said it a hundred times, but the best thing he ever did was cut me off so I could wake up and figure it all out. 

[Ad Meliora]

The Lonely Child encampment grows...  It's a hit Once, I mean, it's no 1966 Cyrkle hit, but close  

When the lonely child begins to question the reality of mirroring (reality testing) this raises core traumas into activation concerning both the questioning (uncertainty) and the hope (unfulfilled expectations) of the unrealistic attachment. "Lack of inherent trust" is found in both parties at this stage.

Reality testing causes the lonely child to pull away because certain things don't add up- as you say, "the idealization phase slowly erodes."

Pulling away, even while in the lap of comfortable luxury- triggers the abandoned child issues of the Borderline. This causes panic reactions of clinging behaviors by the Borderline to prevent the retreat of their desired love object. These immature demands can look like entitlement to others, especially to a lonely child, who has learned early on to be self sufficient and to self soothe- but the entitlement markers are highly charged and emotional to a Borderline, which isn’t Narcissistic grandiosity- it’s ego deficiency and panic.--2010's post

Giving myself a BINGO!  Yeah Wow.  How about a little "Cheese and Rice" to go with your Christ on a Cracker?

[grumpydonut]

How about a little "Cheese and Rice" to go with your Christ on a Cracker?

mmmmm, cheese.

[Ad Meliora]

Maybe you're a Cheesehead too?  (Slang for Green Bay Packer Fan)

The understanding driven lonely child "imagines" (projects) onto the Borderline what he/she feels the Borderline identifies with. The lonely child often fills in the blanks with projective identification and the Borderline attempts to absorbs this- but it's impossible to appear as a self-directed person while taking cues and mirroring another self directed partner.--2010's post

Cheese and summer sausage on a crispy Christ-cracker!  I've written these words almost exactly several times in posts explaining my relationship with my BPDex.  I said 'I projected my ideal relationship onto her, and she was a blank canvas who complied.  She in return projected her shame and guilt onto me.'  Read on...

The Borderline scrambles to keep up with what is projected in a chameleon like manner.  All of this pressure to adapt and conform to the projection smothers and defeats the Borderline’s yearning for a perfect bond and triggers engulfment failure. 

Engulfment also means loss of control, annihilation fantasies and shame.  Shame activates the punitive parent that resides in their inner world, their psyche. The attachment failure has now become shame based for the Borderline.  It will soon become guilt driven for the lonely child partner.

Engulfment makes Borderlines very frustrated and angry- but Borderlines fear abandonment and choose to stuff away their fear and compulsively attempt to manage their pain. The impulsive gestures are a form of self harm that fixes the bond in a permanent chaos of action/reaction. 

Borderlines can be avoidant and passive aggressive and will do everything in their power to hide their strong emotions until they implode.  They swing wildly from abandoned child to angry child until they deflate into detached protector- who is basically a mute that doesn’t speak- or worse, speaks in word salad when confronted.

The swinging dysregulation pattern is unable to be separated and individuated and self directed. Because it cannot be self directed, it cannot be self soothed. There is no ability to defer these emotions to logic and reasoning with introspection *without* another person to blame.  This is where Borderlines are showing you the maturity stage at which they are developmentally arrested and remain stuck and frightened.--2010's post

How does someone ever overcome this?

[Ad Meliora]

It’s at this point that spying, engaging in testing and push/pull behaviors occur as both parties fight for control. Each pours salt in the others core wound.

The understanding driven child tries to understand the Borderline and the Borderline feels misunderstood and persecuted. The understanding driven child retreats to repair their ego and the Borderline lashes out and tries to shame him. The pendulum swings back and forth in clinging and hating and disordered thought and chaos. 

The lonely child tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding from them (triggering bouts of paranoia) or missing (creating dependency issues.)  The angry child threatens to destroy the relationship (as well as themselves = self harm) which triggers immense anger and outrage for both parties. Their love object is broken.

Both parties are in pain- and their egos are easy to "pinch" because they both fear abandonment.   At this point, both core traumas are exposed and the partners are no longer interacting with each other except to arouse each other’s trauma wounds from childhood.

The false self of the lonely child, that the Borderline mirrored, has more ego- as it is directly tied to a “self” which involves coping mechanisms from childhood that mirrored back good.  It was a self that was capable and seeming to have all the answers in the beginning.  When the Borderline tries to destroy it as a failed attachment, it begins to crumble and the lonely child retreats and tries to repair it- essentially wounded to the core. This is also part and parcel of the injury of the smear campaign- and the lonely child may try to return to defend the "self" from being attacked.

Trauma for the lonely child occurs mainly because of perceived failure they cannot “understand” enough (essentially an obsession at this point) and trauma for the Borderline occurs because of anger and abandonment and shame that existed since infancy- and persecution by their inner parent superego for not becoming whole.  --2010's post

[Ad Meliora]

At this point, both parties feel like failures.

Unfortunately, the repair for the lonely child’s self consists of trying again to fix the Borderline "mirror" to reflect the good.  Many attempts will be made by the lonely child (once again) to effect an outcome other than the failed attachment.  The lonely child will try to re-build the self and get the love object (Borderline) to return and resume their compliant mirroring.

Eventually, the fantasy begins to unravel for the lonely child, that they are alone- and the person that the lonely child fell in love with, (the person in the mirror,) was actually YOU.

Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

They’re still scared. Forgive them if you can- they are modern day recreations of their own childhood fears.

Now- after reading all of this- You can’t keep going back for more trauma.  Idea The trauma bond must be broken.

After we've let fantasy go- we can turn the focus to healing.  It's good to wonder what our attraction must have been to this person. Whatever clues you have are generally good enough to give you reason that you’ve had experience with this type of personality before- perhaps within your family of origin. --2010's post

[Cromwell]

Ad meliora. I was diagnosed with personality disorder non specified. Two decades ago, the label washes out in a time frame like that as much as a garment in washing machine will fade the ink on the label away. The most recent update is I have no mental illness not even depression which i self reported with.

Narcissism. As much mild traits at times as the average, its. There but in the healthy form. It is functional and takes understanding to appreciate its importance.

Its a rabbit hole when you start psychiatrising things too much. The root issue in these after relationships is giving treatment for the emotional pain so the afflicted can self heal and find balance. From balance life can go on in new direction with hopefully more resilience from what has learned by the very upsetting experience.

So im. Not ignoring the test or your queustion, my answer to it, it doesn't matter its going off on tangents. Im healed this is to help others in their recovery. Im just a facilitator.

[ILMBPDC]

The Lonely Child encampment grows...  It's a hit Once, I mean, it's no 1966 Cyrkle hit, but close  

Giving myself a BINGO!  Yeah Wow.  How about a little "Cheese and Rice" to go with your Christ on a Cracker?

Cheesehead 
I started excerpting too, then realized I was excerpting most of it. We never got to the engulfment state because he cut me off before we got that serious but everything before that was textbook. I knew I was a lonely, neglected child, but seeing it written out like that was like someone was watching my life...eerie

[Cromwell]

Cheesehead 
I started excerpting too, then realized I was excerpting most of it. We never got to the engulfment state because he cut me off before we got that serious but everything before that was textbook. I knew I was a lonely, neglected child, but seeing it written out like that was like someone was watching my life...eerie

What textbook

[Cromwell]

Stop hiding behind the elaborate emhellishshed psychiatry buzzwords and start facing the {soft} easily parry blows that have been directed.

The sooner the better Bevause the quicker youll be able to lead a more happier life

[ILMBPDC]

Stop hiding behind the elaborate emhellishshed psychiatry buzzwords and start facing the {soft} easily parry blows that have been directed.

The sooner the better Bevause the quicker youll be able to lead a more happier life

I have no idea is this is directed at me or at the thread in general (or honestly what half of it even is supposed to mean) but I, for one, am not hiding behind anything. I have thrown myself in the hellstorm of figuring out what my own issues are and laying them bare for all to read with the express desire to lead a happier life.
If you don't like psychiatry buzzwords, why are you even here?

[poppy2]

Hi all,

So I would agree with ILMBPDC... I'm curious about what you say about 'we can heal each other'.. it's a collaborative approach that I also share with you, just because I think things like intimacy, trust, interdependence, and growing/collaboration are really important in life. Of course, these things are toxic when it comes to codependency (expecting the other to do things for you) or rescuing, but at the same time I don't think an impulse towards fixing situations is wrong. So honestly - and I'm curious what you think about this - I still believe it's possible to find a partner who has trauma in their background or who was a lonely or abandoned child and work through it.. it can be a rocky road, but at the same time the attraction is there for a reason.

If I was reflecting on my relationship I would say that my problem was that I was coming from this standpoint, whereas my partner wasn't. If I was always strong, knew where my boundaries were, and generally suggested these sorts of ideas (like a relarionship as a 'collaboration' between two people) my ex was enthusiastic. But she had no basis herself to look at problems this way, and I just assumed from the times she had been supportive or intelligent or resourceful that she did. I didn't realize I was dealing with BPD in the background, where many times she disappeared it was because of shame, anxiety, fear, or whatever else. I think real trust takes a long time to build and I think what's damaging about these relationships is that it really damages that fundamental trust.. at least for me, the trust that other people won't act in predatory ways, won't always look for their own advantage, etc.

As for your 4 points, Ad Meliora, I would agree with them.

1) I wanted to try and help and guide this child, once I saw she was there... but my ex also would never accept help from anyone, so this was a lost game

2) In my case this was my ability to be both strong and vulnerable, which she often commented upon, and also the first strangest comment I got when I felt she might be codependent 'when you're free it helps me to be free'. Never understood what that meant

3) I agree with this. I also got 'complete annihilation'. I still struggle with the hit to my self worth this took. At the same time, it isn't really us they are annihilating, is it? it's their frustrated relationship to their parents. Cold comfort I know, but I try to remind myself of that as it helps to detach.

4)I don't know. Maybe you feel this was true with ex. My ex said to me 'I feel like I have no control' when actually, she had control over everything (I was scared, confused, and had acceded this... instead of very strong asserting boundaries, which I think would have calmed her down). So I really feel like there were just 2-3 dissociated parts of my ex's identity that really weren't integrated or couldn't 'speak' to each other... instead of a personality as a spectrum, her personality was divided.. and this makes me feel very sorry for her.

I also say that cause of the mixed signals I would get, which I still honestly hope one day to understand. She wrote me 'I never want to talk to you again' and then unblocked me the next day. She would refuse to talk to me but then make playlists about how sorry she was and how she would always love *someone* etc. Just like two opposite parts of the same coin that never see each other. Drove me crazy, and I still get triggered about it.

I read the lonely child schema when I first arrived here, and it made things make so much sense to me. At the same time, from a critical perspective, since we are 'understanding driven', of course we like such a neat and complex description. Also, it made me feel very used to read I was just a 'part time good (sense of self)' for the BPD... and the article on this website, 'my definition of love', countermands that by saying the love was real for them, too, although then changed in very drastic ways.

of course, you should show love, not just say it or exploit it.. I'm not arguing with that. Just that the idea of being a part time good means that ppl with BPD are truly irredeemable.. that they just use people.. and, depsite the evidence to the contrary, I just don't want to believe that. I still hope, in general, for a better outcome, a better world, than that idea of using and discarding.

[rob66]

I have an extremely strong intuition, but I do not place my trust in it when I fall in love - which has been twice: the first time with my daughter's mother, who also had trauma as a child. We had a rocky short romance. 20 years later, we are now great friends.

With my current ex - my alarms rang off the hook, but I didn't know if it was just fear on my part. It was NOT just fear on my part. It's almost as if I was looking into a crystal ball. I sensed, and told my ex, "I feel that you're with me because I am good for you in the moment." She denied it, and told me she was committing to helping me feel otherwise. During our first rupture - because I did not care for her after a surgery in a very specific way (I had agreed to do it in that specific way, in all fairness, but in no way do I feel like the way I did care for her deserve that anger with which she responded) - I saw her coldness and callousness, which was the hallmark of the way her mother treated her. At a young age, my ex's mother told her, "You're a good girl, and if I wanted to be a mother, I'd want to be your mother, but I don't want to be a mother;" she then cut off almost all communication with my ex. Brutal. After that first rupture with my ex, I noticed her cold behavior and thought to myself, "Wow, my gf is acting just as cold and callous as her mother must have been to her." All my alarms were blaring, but I did not heed them. I, the lonely child, had found the one person in more than 20 years that actually understood me, so why should I heed them? Because of the love we both felt, our issues were not going to stand in the way. We understood each other.

When my ex ended it, it was the coldest, most callous thing I have ever experienced. "You are just using me," I told her, and then she yelled that we should break up. That was it. Over. Done.

Look, I made some mistakes in this relationship; common mistakes, I think, that we all make as we are getting to know someone, and are learning to "speak their language" of trauma. My mistakes came from assuming she was as independent as me, and could be so within the dynamics of relationship. For decades, I had forged my independence, rarely asking for help of any kind, not even as a single father with primary custody. I thought that type of independence, of flexibility, was the hallmark of adult behavior, as well as being able to accept when things didn't work our exactly how they were expected to work out.

This thread, more than others, has REALLY helped me see what happened and why.