Holidays and alienation

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Separated from uBPDstbxw in September and moved out.  Two kids, S11 and S8.  S11 is upset about the divorce and siding with his mom.  She will not make him visit me, and I haven't seen him in two months.  I send him loving text messages, and he ignores them or sends nasty ones back.  I haven't been able to get anything done legally and am now on my second attorney.  S8 is taking things better and comes over a few times a week, but not overnight.

We have an agreement for me to have both kids on Christmas Day.  I am expecting S11 to have a bad attitude and am nervous about the day.  I've read about jiu-jitsu parenting from Craig Childress and believe it makes a lot of sense.

I knew my stbxw was a difficult person, but I never expected her to sabotage (or at least not support) my relationship with our children.  I was a great dad to them until I moved out.  It makes me ill to think about this alienation and how it is hurting my kids.  Any advice?

Thank you and Merry Christmas to all.

[sterlingblue]

Separated from uBPDstbxw in September and moved out.  Two kids, S11 and S8.  S11 is upset about the divorce and siding with his mom.  She will not make him visit me, and I haven't seen him in two months.  I send him loving text messages, and he ignores them or sends nasty ones back.  I haven't been able to get anything done legally and am now on my second attorney.  S8 is taking things better and comes over a few times a week, but not overnight.

We have an agreement for me to have both kids on Christmas Day.  I am expecting S11 to have a bad attitude and am nervous about the day.  I've read about jiu-jitsu parenting from Craig Childress and believe it makes a lot of sense.

I knew my stbxw was a difficult person, but I never expected her to sabotage (or at least not support) my relationship with our children.  I was a great dad to them until I moved out.  It makes me ill to think about this alienation and how it is hurting my kids.  Any advice?

Thank you and Merry Christmas to all.

[ForeverDad]

Understand that at first your older son may be distant or resistant during a visit but that can be the case right after an exchange.  Usually, though, the frostiness melts away for the rest of the visit.

It sounds like to need to get a legal framework in place to ensure you don't get shut out of most parenting opportunities.  The sooner you start the legal process, the sooner you'll get more regular contact.

Do your best to get overnights started.  The longer you go with minimal contact, the harder it will be to get a decent parenting schedule.  Why?  It may appear to the professionals and court that you're okay not being an involved dad, and okay with "standard" alternate weekends.

Beware of  her saying "my son(s) don't want to come".  That's a slanted perspective.  I recall one time in court the magistrate asked, "Does a child get to decide whether to go to school?"  Of course not.  Same with parenting, once you have a schedule, then you'll have something to follow.

Are you pondering Divorce or Legal Separation?  When I first met my divorce lawyer, I said I was pondering which path to take.  He said in his then 17 years of practice he had handled only 2 legal separations and they had health insurance reasons, no custody conflict.  He warned me that if I tried Legal Separation and it wasn't enough to address our custody issues, then switching to Divorce might be possible but may cause delays.  He told me one case he handled where the H was looking very good in the Custody Evaluation, there was only his signature needed but the H went silent.  Lawyer called but the W answered the phone, they had reconciled.  Well, six months later the H called back and wanted to restart his divorce.  But the second time around the W knew which poor behaviors to avoid and this time she came out on top for parenting.

Sorry, but time-tested strategies and being strategic are important in a high conflict custody/parenting case.

[kells76]

Hi sterlingblue,

That's really relatable. These holidays are so hard when the other parent isn't parenting or supportive of your parenting. I anticipate a fresh round of "I'd rather be at Mom's amazing New Year's party than with you" coming up for us  , so you're not alone.  My DH's two kids (now SD15 & SD13) have also struggled in the past, with older SD taking a similar role of "mom's protector / can't leave Mom".

We also went through a difficult time, for other but related reasons, when SD15 was ~12-13. She would come over, but it was tough. Sometimes we just had to find something easy and low-key to do that the kids liked. We watched a LOT of Marvel Universe movies when SD15 was 13. It took the focus off of her issue and allowed us to have 2 low conflict hours together.

What has your S11 liked to do, that you could do on Christmas? Or, what's something that is open on Christmas, that  you can go do, that's chill and distracting? I know I don't always like the idea of going to see a movie on Christmas Day, but if that gets you guys some time together, go for it. The new Spiderman movie is out, FYI, if they're old enough.

Can you do something far away from Mom's, so that whatever happens, it'd take a long time for Mom to arrive/for you to get back?

Does S11 have any friends he wants to invite over? Does he have any cousins in town?

Is he into pro sports? Is there a game on at a sports bar/restaurant somewhere, that he'd want to watch, so you guys could all go out for pizza and just watch the game?

...

Getting more detailed, is Mom supposed to drop the kids off, or are you supposed to pick them up? If she's dropping them off, can you be "at a fun place" already? I.e., she's not dropping them off at your house, but at the zoo, or somewhere similarly "fun" and neutral?

If you're supposed to pick them up, that can be trickier. Do you have a pocket voice recorder or recording app on your phone? We can talk you through "if this, then that" scenarios for pickup, so that you can be calm and chill and know what you want to do. As awful as it would be if she didn't support S11 coming over, if she refuses "at the front door", you can get her refusal recorded (privately, don't let her know), and that will not look good for her down the road.
...

When there's a high-conflict coparent, we sometimes have to let go of "how Christmas was" or "how we want Christmas to be", in service of the greater good of getting time with the kids. I hope you can feel free to come up with whatever heretical yet functional plan works for you and your boys for spending time together, whether it's buying an xbox and gaming together all day, watching movies (are they old enough for a Lord Of The Rings marathon), etc. Give yourself a break this Christmas to do literally whatever works, whether traditional or not. It'll buy you some time as you continue to compile documentation and get better legal support.

[kells76]

Couple more thoughts:

Is the agreement re: Christmas Day in writing somewhere (email etc)?

Are the kids with her Christmas Eve?

What day/time are the exchanges?

What happened in October the last time you had parenting time with him? I.e. at the next pickup, he then said "I'm not coming over"? Did you attempt that last pickup in person or was it more like Mom texted "he doesn't want to come over"? Curious how that went down, to get a feel for Christmas Day stuff.

It's a LONG journey. You're way ahead of the game because you're here and you've read Dr Childress. It's still hard and it hurts, yet my gut feeling is once you get decent-to-good legal representation, which will help get the boys in counseling, things WILL get better. Just take it one day at a time.

[ForeverDad]

One aspect that courts are very clear on is holidays and vacations.  I will use my local court's default schedule but your state or locality may vary in the details.

Order of Priority:

• (1) Holidays
  Usually parents alternate on holidays, then the next year they get the ones they didn't get the prior year.  Many of them include overnights.
  Most courts include the children's birthdays but not the parents' birthdays.
  Before the court selects its usual default, both parents should review whether any should be deleted (since not celebrated) or added.
• (2) Vacations that are adequately notified
  Court has a standard policy listing how early vacations during certain time of the year should be declared.
  Vacation notices are notices, not requests.
  If parents pick same dates, then earliest notice wins.
  Court also defaults to time limits... mine were a maximum of 3 weeks per calendar year and no single vacation longer than 2 weeks.
• Parenting schedule
  Often parents may seek some time scheduled to the other parent.  Unless stipulated otherwise in the order, the other parent can declined the request to relinquish or trade time.
  Get all agreements and trades in some form of writing that the court would accept as valid documentation.  Verbal agreements are generally unenforceable (and often sabotaged by disordered parents).
  It is wise to get your end of the trade first since disordered parents often make last minute requests then fail to complete the second half of the trade.

As noted above, if your son wasn't with you last month for holiday then of course you would have him this weekend.  You also would get one or two overnights as well.  Look up your county's holiday list, one is probably available on your county's domestic court website.  For example, mine listed that Parent A got 1-2 days up through eve of 12/24 then the exchange was done so Parent B got 12/24 overnight for 1-2 days total.

If all you're getting is just 12/25 daytime, then you are likely getting shortchanged due to not knowing better.

Kells is right, have a short list of activities that the kids would enjoy, or consider what they'd like to do... as long is it is YOUR activity with them.  Your plans do NOT need her approval, though of course at this early stage of separation you have to decide if/when you rock the boat.  Unless court has restricted your parenting rights, you are still a parent just as much as their mother is a parent.  The problem is that a disordered controlling parent presumes to set the terms.  Your only option, since court views parents without a court order as having equal - but unspecified - rights, is to go to court to seek redress.

You've missed a couple months of parenting.  Sadly, courts seldom fix the past.  You're unlikely to get make-up time, though of course ask for it.  Courts will issue orders or directions and then smile as you are ushered out the door.

[sterlingblue]

Thank you, Kells and ForeverDad.  You are both so helpful.

Do your best to get overnights started.  The longer you go with minimal contact, the harder it will be to get a decent parenting schedule.  Why?  It may appear to the professionals and court that you're okay not being an involved dad, and okay with "standard" alternate weekends.

This is great advice and very motivating for me to stay on top of my new attorney (better than my old one, but still not as assertive/responsive as I would like).

Kells: Yes, it has happened before that I went to the house to pick up the kids and they told me they didn't want to come, so I left rather than made a scene.  Good idea to audio-record the exchange -- I will do that.

[kells76]

You may already be doing this -- make sure if those times happen, where the boys are like "we don't want to go", that you both (a) have the recorder already going privately, and (b) let them know you love them, you'd love to spend time with them, you're here just for them, and your relationship matters. Then they know that you were there and you tried. You could consider adding something like "I'm sorry there are hard things getting in the way of us being together".

If you're doing the pickup on Christmas, bring one gift for each of them in the trunk of the car. This will be your "stay calm, stay chill, stay loving" backup plan. If Mom had manipulated them to the point that they're saying "we don't want to go", and it seems like things will escalate because mom is doing the "well it's what they want, I can't force them" move    , you could have a last resort plan of getting the gifts from the car, letting them know how much you love them and love seeing them, hope they have a good Christmas, and know you're always thinking of them.

This is a tricky move because it can create a precedent where the kids feel like they get to decide if they go or not. I would only use it as a very last resort and with actively getting legal representation AND with recording/documentation. It does keep the kids out of the middle of being used by their mom as pawns in a way they don't understand, but, hope for the best and keep the "chill, calm, leave presents, no conflict" approach ONLY for if nothing else works.

I hope you and the boys are able to be together and do something fun -- at 8 & 11, I think "fun" still has some power 

Even if things go south, remember to tell them you love them, and get a good lawyer -- they're out there.

Prayers,

kells76

[ForeverDad]

William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder handbook has a chapter on how to select an experienced proactive family law attorney.  Most lawyers seem to have only experience with making settlements, deals and holding hands.  You need someone who can do that an more, someone who has experience in hearings and trials.

Another approach while interviewing lawyers is to ask something like this, "If you were facing a potentially high conflict divorce from your own spouse, which lawyer(s) would you choose to represent you?"  A good lawyer knows he or she won't gain a client or be a good fit for everyone who walks in the door.  You should be able to compile a small list of lawyers to choose from.

Example:  My separation and divorce took over two years.  About halfway through I became frustrated with the endless delays and my lawyer seemed too passive.  I asked him for other lawyers he trusted with my case.  He gave me three names.  They were good lawyers.  I decided to stay with him.  He was my lawyer during and after the divorce, from 2006 (ex had temp custody and I had alternate weekends) to the end of 2013 (I had full custody and majority time during the school year).

[ForeverDad]

I was especially cautious with exchanges because (1) she had already made allegations against me and (2) I knew all it took for my ex to 'create' an incident was if I were to push too hard.  Sadly, mothers get a said and unsaid default preference, dads can risk a perp walk if things go wrong.  Here's what I wrote to one mother here:

I know from experience that police were reluctant to get involved when I didn't have a court order to reference.

My story was that I had two temp orders, one for the separation and her emergency filing and another for the divorce.  After the first was dismissed I didn't see my son for over 3 months.  She wouldn't even allow my calls to go through.  (And I was paying for our phones.)

My story, I didn't know it would be 3 months away from my son.  There were days I wanted to go knock on her door anyway.  Fortunately I didn't, police refused to enable a peace visit but did admit they'd come rushing if she called them.  That scared me, I didn't want to risk arrest or jail so somehow I kept my distance until the court issued another temp order.

You have a few options.  You can ask the police to do a welfare check on your child.  Or if he leaves the child at a daycare or sitter, you can bring police with you and your paperwork including child's birth certificate and likely you'll get your child the less unsafe way preferred by the authorities.

[sterlingblue]

OP here with a recap of Christmas day.  No issues with picking them up, except S11 scowled at me and demanded I not talk to him.  After lunch (which S11 ignored), I asked him to stop playing video games so we could open presents, and he refused and said I couldn't force him. After I kept asking him, he said he was going to call his mom and have her come get him, but I kept his phone away from him so he could not call her. This made him upset. He tried to get his phone from me (grabbing my arm, etc.), but he was unsuccessful. He started crying and saying, "Mom said you couldn't take my phone from me!" I told him that at my place, I am in charge, not his mom (before I moved out, Mom was definitely in charge, and I allowed her to undermine my parenting to keep the peace way too often). After about 20 minutes of fighting, I told him he could have his phone back after he calmed down and we opened presents if he promised not to ask his mom to come get him. Surprisingly, that worked.

We opened presents, he got the video game console he wanted, and we got along fine after that. It was as if the first hour we were together never happened!  S8 even asked S11 on the way back to mom's, "Did you like Dad's place better than you thought?"  Predictably, S11 asked him to shut up, but the point was made.    (My S8 is awesome and is handling all of this like a champ. 

Sadly, when I brought them back to the house S11's scowl toward me returned as soon as he was around his mother. I've got a long way to go with this situation, but today was a positive step and honestly went much better than I expected.

Today was a challenging day, and I would not have been able to handle it as well as I did without this message board and the link to Dr. Childress somebody posted on some other thread.  These resources gave me confidence and a plan, in addition to the knowledge that I am not alone.

Thank you all.  This time of year can be even more difficult than usual for those of us with BPD partners or exes.  I hope you all were able to find peace and joy in some form or fashion this Christmas.

Cheers,
sterlingblue

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, when I brought them back to the house S11's scowl toward me returned as soon as he was around his mother.

His morphing is not totally unexpected.  My son was 3 going on 4 when we separated.  He was too young to know to take sides.

Your son has to show, even want, that he is loyal to her.  Maybe that makes life seem easier for him, but he is getting himself involved in taking sides with adult scenarios.  A typical child should be left out of adult matters.  Too bad his mother doesn't perceive that.

Keep up the visits, and not just for holidays, but regular visits.  Next is New Years, that also is a holiday.  This time get an overnight too.  There are major holidays and lesser ones too.  They all apply in parenting plans.

[sterlingblue]

OP here again.  Today S11 was supposed to come over and play his new game system.  But my stbxw heard about the Christmas phone incident and told me she would like S11 to retain possession of his phone in my condo.  I told her that when the kids are with me, I will set the rules about when they can have their phones.

She responded, "S11 decided he is not going to your condo while that rule is in effect."

When I went to pick up the kids, S11 was not at the door.  I went to the door and asked to talk to him, but stbxw told me to read my messages.  So I missed out on seeing S11 again.

Under normal circumstances, I would be fine with the kids being able to call mom when they wanted, but in this situation, I believe S11 would call and complain to his mom (and likely ask to go back to her) whenever I did something he didn't like, and she would come pick him up and/or berate me in front of him.  That would have happened early on Christmas if I hadn't taken his phone from him.

Has anyone had experience with this type of situation?  Should kids have constant phone access to the favored parent when they are with the rejected parent?  In my case, there is no custody arrangement yet in place.

[ForeverDad]

If only they had stayed the night you could have avoided this failed exchange...  Likely she weaseled the information from him or he overshared to get on her good (less bad) side.  Oh well.

Document this failed exchange.  That younger son came out but not older son.  Remember, kids don't decide whether to see a parent... just like whether the kids go to school, kids don't decide, it's the parents' responsibility.  And don't delete the emails or texts.

It sounds like you'll need some legal reinforcement sooner than later.

Also, does your condo have room for the boys to stay overnight, separate bedroom with beds, etc?  If not, she may later try to claim it's not suitable for overnights.

[sterlingblue]

Also, does your condo have room for the boys to stay overnight, separate bedroom with beds, etc?  If not, she may later try to claim it's not suitable for overnights.

Yes.  They share a room at the house, and I have a bedroom for them here with brand-new beds that they haven't stayed in since October (S8 likes spending time here but doesn't want to stay overnight without his brother).  We started a 5/5/2/2 plan (not court ordered) in October, and I had them for 5 days, but then S11 became upset with me and stbxw's position was that we couldn't force the kids to spend overnights here.

You're right that I need legal reinforcement.  I don't think anything will move this holiday week, though.

[ForeverDad]

Today S11 was supposed to come over and play his new game system.  But my stbxw heard about the Christmas phone incident...

She responded, "S11 decided he is not going to your condo while that rule is in effect."

So, according to her, S11 prefers to have his phone rather than play his new game system?  That doesn't sound like any 11 year old I know.

What will you do if he wants (or she says he wants) to take the system to mother's house?  Can you make a boundary... it stays, at least until the parenting and exchanges aspect is addressed?  In a manner of speaking, that may be appropriate leverage... unless she has the spare cash to buy one for her residence too.

I don't know whether she works or not... You're not indiscriminately paying her bills and credit charges, are you?

stbxw's position was that we couldn't force the kids to spend overnights here

So, flip it around... if the kids were with you and they wanted to stay with you, then she wouldn't force them to come back?

Still, try more than once this week for both kids to come over during this holiday week.  By text or email, so you have documentation that you tried but it didn't happen.  It makes clear her pattern.  By you being nice (compliant) these past months you've given weight to any claim she makes that she's the primary parent, despite the original 5/5/2/2 equal time schedule.  It may be hard for court to be convinced to change the current parenting framework back to the original theoretical equal time.

[ForeverDad]

I've reviewed some past posts.  You've been here for about 3 years.  This was from a few months ago.

My previous post from one year ago was titled, "Should I move out?"  Well, after an up-and-down year, I finally decided to move out and end the relationship a few weeks back.  Today I texted W on her way home and told her I found a place and that I had already told the kids that I was moving out.

Clearly you can afford your new residence.  Good for you.  What about her, can she afford her existing residence?  If not, and if she doesn't decide to downsize — which you should advocate — then be sure she will seek (1) child support and (2) spousal support during the divorce if the judge will go for it and some alimony afterward.  (I was married for 15 years when I separated and 18 years by the time the divorce was final.  I don't know how my lawyer did it but they agreed for me to pay short term alimony for only 3 years.  I think my maximum risk was up to half the marriage's length, some 9 years.  These days alimony generally isn't lifetime, it's intended to enable the financially disadvantaged ex-spouse to transition into post-divorce life.)

She may be messed up but nearly all pwBPD know the value of $$$, that is, your $$$.

The tax laws changed a couple years ago, in most cases the payer (you!) pays the income tax, not the recipient.

[sterlingblue]

Thanks for the push, FD.  I'm realizing that even in the divorce process, I have been too nice (compliant) to keep the peace, but you're right that my behavior is strengthening her case that she's the primary parent.

I don't know whether she works or not... You're not indiscriminately paying her bills and credit charges, are you?

She does not work.  I have been paying her credit cards because we are still married, so any interest charges would be classified as marital debt.  She ordered $5K of dental work that I am paying for.  However, my money will soon run out and I'm not sure what to do then.

[GaGrl]

Did you text your stbx regarding "my house, my rules", only to have her then say that S11 didn't want to come over? If you have that in text, it's exactly the type of documentation that the judge will need to approve a strong court order that protects your right to parent in your way on your time.

You already have documentation that the original agreement of 5-5-2-2 was not followed through by stbx.

The faster you get a temp custody order in place, the better.  You'll also then have a physical document to show police should there be a dispute about the boys coming to your house -- you don't know how stubborn your stbx will be about thinking a court order is a "suggestion" and not a legal order that she is required to follow.

Also, make sure the order contains wording forbidding both parents to disparage the other parent to the children.

[sterlingblue]

Did you text your stbx regarding "my house, my rules", only to have her then say that S11 didn't want to come over? If you have that in text, it's exactly the type of documentation that the judge will need to approve a strong court order that protects your right to parent in your way on your time.

Yep, it's all being captured in a parenting app.  Multiple people are telling me a have a strong case for 50/50.  I hope they are right.

stbxw and her lawyer want to appoint a GAL in the case.  My lawyer wants me to agree to it too, but I'm not sure.  I don't want the GAL's review to drag on for months while I'm not seeing my alienated child.