BPD MIL Update

[formflier]

Usually when I write it all out and can see it...a plan seems to pop out where you couldn't think of it before.

And then if you present all the options to others..they may ask questions or see possibilities that you never considered.

Hmm...ok, hopefully I won't get it too much trouble for a small thread hijack.

I'm an only, my mom is an only, my Dad had one older brother..who had two kids (my only first cousins).

So..my Dad's parents had 3 grandchildren. 

All three grandchildren became pilots and jumped out of airplanes.  It was later in life that my cousins and I kinda noticed that and were like...what kinda of stuff was Grandma and Grandpa teaching the family! 

Note...after about 12 jumps I never jumped again.  It was fun...but not that fun.

Both of my cousins are the type that have thousands of jumps and that's basically their social life.

OK..sorry PJ!  Hijack over...  hehe

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it is hard on an "only". Even if there are siblings- one of them can have the largest part of the care. If there's dysfunction, other siblings may have had more of the abusive behavior themselves, or be dysfunctional themselves. Even in a family that is relatively without it, location plays a part. Gender roles also may have an influence.

In our case, none of us live very close to BPD mom but I am the one who lives the closest.
However, I think we are all keeping the geographic distance because she's verbally and emotionally abusive much of the time. While there's the ethical struggle of the value of "caring for our parents" the other one is to "honor your parent". To be around her is a struggle emotionally because if any other person said these things to us, we would completely avoid them, or say something back to them that we'd not say to a parent. So we just keep our mouths shut while she calls us names,  or gets angry at us for something small, and for me, I am holding back tears. Since she is elderly, and she is my mother, I don't want to completely avoid her, but the only way we can manage a visit is with short ones and distance makes that possible. She either can't help herself or this is how she relates to us.

We have boundaries with her but to her, it seems they are a challenge because she pushes them, and it becomes a struggle. It's not a fair match ethically- she's my parent. The only way to deal with her is to be verbally harsh. She does back off when people do that, but I don't want to speak to her like that. It's tolerate her abusive behavior or keep a distance. Distance seems to be the better choice.

[pursuingJoy]

 PJ?  Are you opening the door to that boundary just a little, or...?

I've only accepted that legally, I can't forbid her from moving to the city we live in.

You nailed it with your analogy. It would go south within a week of her arrival here. Moving to our city is a very, very bad idea and I've told H that. I also know from experience that H hears (justifies) what he wants to, so this...

I would suggest deciding soon if that is a firm boundary for you or not...because your H will pick up on it...the "if she ever moved here" part (or anything else) is really easy to pick up on.  

...is a great idea and something I need to address. Thoughts on how to word this as successfully as possible? I'm thinking about being clear about how I feel, my concerns, stating very clearly that I do not want her to move to our city based on my history with her, the fact that she's currently surrounded by family and receiving great care. And, if something happened to H, she and I would be alone here.

In the spirit of NOT making ultimatums, and thinking of z's comment about men taking action more than talking, I'm thinking of saying that if he wants her to move her despite how I feel, BEFORE he makes any decision, my condition is that he and I go to counseling together for a minimum of 6 months to talk through what it means, so that we can make a decision as a team. I also want to ask that we continue counseling twice a month for the first year that she lives here. Does that sound reasonable?

My counselor recommended that I make MIL successfully completing DBT therapy as a condition of moving here. That's another option.

My own mother is a "case" in point.  She idolizes the few people she knows who never married, and lived with their parent ("to take care of them").  She has made it clear her whole life that is what she would have liked from me.  In one of those mother-daughter couples, the mother passed away.  About a year later, the daughter committed suicide.  My mother romanticizes that.  

I said "ew" out loud when I read that.

How is your H doing these days?  Sounds like his mother has been talking to him about moving to your city?  How do you feel about that?  Does this mean that she's "not getting enough attention" from the relatives close to her where she is living now?

My MIL is on the edge, simmering, as evidenced by her recent bout of accusations that property mgmt stole the routing number off her checks.

I don't think H wants her here as much as he feels obligated to move her here. She wants sole access to him out of fear of abandonment, and she's also terrified of losing independence. She desperately wants to be told what to do, but she blames and finds fault with anyone who tells her what to do, and with anything she's told to do.

H, on the other hand, is obsessing over his most recent workout/diet regime. He talks about little else, even his mom. I ask how she is and he offers brief responses, which is unusual. I like that he is taking time to focus on himself, and I wonder what this escape means. I don't want to discover that they've been making plans to move her here and he's been hiding it from me.

[zachira]

It sounds like you have a hit a real deal breaker. You can't prevent your MIL from moving to where you live and if she does, it will likely be an absolute nightmare, possibly the end of your marriage.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think the 6 months of couple counseling prior to the move or even prior to taking a decision is a great idea. Maybe this will suffice to make him drop the idea.

If not, then the DBT conditions is a great one. Might also stop the project in its toe, because I don't see her doing that...

And if she does... Then the continuing couple therapy coupled with the DBT might give you guys a fighting chance.

[pursuingJoy]

A parent can love their child and their spouse, but I guess not in the emotions of a pw BPD where love for a parent or child, or spouse if it's a BPD parent must be some sort of competition.

It is very competitive with MIL. When I wasn't satisfying her needs, she got really affectionate with H's ex wife, someone she hates. She even spent Christmas with her one year. Still makes me laugh. I didn't react so she quit. She is forever testing loyalty and pitting one family member against another.

I think the hardest thing for him is being the bad guy. Dad didn't want to be the bad guy either as he did try to please us both. However, if I say no to BPD mom, I am the bad guy. I recently did say no to her moving near me.

I'm proud of you for saying no. How do pwBPD get away with going around and defining other people's goodness and badness? You're not a bad person for not wanting your mom to live near you. How do pwBPD get this kind of power and what's the antidote to this brand of poison?

I think it is hard on an "only". Even if there are siblings- one of them can have the largest part of the care. If there's dysfunction, other siblings may have had more of the abusive behavior themselves, or be dysfunctional themselves. Even in a family that is relatively without it, location plays a part. Gender roles also may have an influence.

It's hard to be an only surviving child of an aging parent. It's hard to be the only child that lifts a finger to help. It's hard to be the abused and alienated child that is forever scapegoated as not doing enough, and it's hard to be the golden child that is left with the full weight of expectation. And honestly, aging itself is not for the faint of heart. Aging and all that comes with it sucks, for everyone involved. There is loss in every stage.

This whole experience has made me reflect on the absolutely critical importance of healing. My mom is about 4 years younger than MIL, but you would think it was a 20 year gap if you saw them side by side. I don't want to age like MIL. I want to age with grace.  I want to heal and grow so that I can find joy where I am, in whoever is around me, even if I'm in *gasp* assisted living. I want to be a source of joy to others. The worst part of dealing with her aging is not her needs. It's her constant state of fear, panic and absolute misery because she never healed from trauma.  

The only way to deal with her is to be verbally harsh. She does back off when people do that, but I don't want to speak to her like that. It's tolerate her abusive behavior or keep a distance. Distance seems to be the better choice.

Thanks for sharing this. MIL would say something rude, and H would say, "Just give it right back." No. I don't want to become her. I don't want to violate my values of respecting others, only to get her to back down until next time. I'll take the distance, thanks.

Also, 'just give it right back' wasn't a genuine invitation. I spoke up once and H got really angry with me. So, no. I'll take Distance for 500, Alex.

[pursuingJoy]

It sounds like you have a hit a real deal breaker. You can't prevent your MIL from moving to where you live and if she does, it will likely be an absolute nightmare, possibly the end of your marriage.

If she moves here it would likely be the end of our marriage.

I'm not convinced she will. H and I, despite everything, are in a good place. He has said that he understands why I have an issue with her, and accepts that, and the fact that his mom will never change. He's mentioned moving her here but it comes out in desperation, not actual plans.

I guess what I want to do is get ahead of potential knee-jerk reactions. I want to map out a plan with him. I can't force him to do anything, but I can use what I know to make wise, proactive decisions.

[pursuingJoy]

I think the 6 months of couple counseling prior to the move or even prior to taking a decision is a great idea. Maybe this will suffice to make him drop the idea.

If not, then the DBT conditions is a great one. Might also stop the project in its toe, because I don't see her doing that...

And if she does... Then the continuing couple therapy coupled with the DBT might give you guys a fighting chance.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm on the same page so far.

[Methuen]

I would not magically jump in to 'serve' if she moved here.

PJ, I am still really bothered by this.  Are you aware if you have ever used this phrase with your H?  (..."if she ever moved here") The reason I ask is twofold.  (1) When I first read this, it reads to me as you accepting this will  actually happen.  For some people, acceptance = approval.  Let's face it.  It's almost a given that is what MIL is going to want from her son.  Once they want something, they get it, or the person(s) who prevent it will go to MIL's special H_LL.  Your H wants to avoid that at all costs because he is terrified of her whether he is cognizant of this or not. To me the phrase reads like you've perhaps resigned yourself to it.  If you've said this to your H, guaranteed that as the son of a BPD mother, he will have picked up on it. That's how it reads to me - acceptance. Even if you don't mean it that way, it could be interpreted that way.  And even if you've had dozens of conversations about why it wouldn't be healthy for her to live close, that little phrase opens the door a lot. And he will know it. The second thing that concerns me is (2) I am in my own special H_LL navigating my mother 6 min away, and I have my eyes very wide open to her issues.  I don't defend her.  I don't make excuses for her.  I say it the way it is with my H.  And I have put up so many boundaries before the most recent one which is a "time" boundary I put in place by returning to work, despite being retired.  It's awful being near her.  While she doesn't "control" me, she has huge influence over the life and everyday choices I make because of fear, obligation and guilt.  She's always in my head.  And as her diseases progress, it only gets worse.  Her fears get worse.  It's a revolving downward cycle, and she sucks the joy out of my life.  That is the truth.

I don't want you to have to suffer what so many of us who live close to our geriatric BPD mothers suffer.  Words cannot accurately convey the truth of what goes on.  So I would urge you extreme caution in your choice of words around both your H and MIL, so that they don't misinterpret your words, and assume you have opened the door and accepted the option.  Regardless of what you say directly, it's possible that what you say indirectly means as much or more.  Because once they pick up they have your approval, that door is gonna open whether you like it or not.  I guess my warning is "choose your words carefully" on this topic.

Ultimately they are gonna do what they are gonna do, and no, you can't forbid them from moving her close.  But I very much doubt you want to inadvertantly give them license to move her close, because of possible hidden messages in terms such as "if she moves here".

Thoughts on how to word this as successfully as possible? I'm thinking about being clear about how I feel, my concerns, stating very clearly that I do not want her to move to our city based on my history with her, the fact that she's currently surrounded by family and receiving great care. And, if something happened to H, she and I would be alone here.

All very good points.  I would suggest putting your sentences together, and running it by us here in advance when you are ready.  So many minds here with good ideas and different perspectives to assist you with this... I would try to keep it as positive as possible, focussing on all the plusses of where she is right now.

I'm thinking of saying that if he wants her to move her despite how I feel, BEFORE he makes any decision, my condition is that he and I go to counseling together for a minimum of 6 months to talk through what it means, so that we can make a decision as a team. I also want to ask that we continue counseling twice a month for the first year that she lives here. Does that sound reasonable?

My counselor recommended that I make MIL successfully completing DBT therapy as a condition of moving here. That's another option.

This is a start, but who the heck decides if it's successful?  MIL?  H?  Wayyyy too subjective.  Success has to be measurable.  Like 90% less conflict than there is presently?  Or you actually enjoy being with her 75% of the time?  Or the psychiatrist can say she is 80% better?  Back to counselling for 6 months...  Sounds good, but you two have already done lots of counselling.  He knows he could probably survive another 6 months, jump through that hoop, and then he's got his "go ahead".  This doesn't mean it will bring results.  The results really depend on what his "intentions" for doing the counselling are.  Are they to acquire more skills to "individuate" from his mom or to work as a team player with you on decisions about her?  I really like the "making a decision as a team" part.  Is he currently a good "team player" when it comes to making decisions that revolve around his mother, or would the skill of "team player on decisions about his mom" be a new skill set?  Hmm. How difficult will it be to work as a team with him, when it comes to her?  I ask because when it comes to caring for his mom, it seems like the team is he and his mom (not so much you as you have stepped off the triangle and left him to deal with his mother as he needs to). You already know that he is more afraid of his mom than of you, so "working as a team player with you" is going to take a whole lot of work beyond counselling when it comes to his mom.  I also really like the part that says counselling "twice a month for the first year she lives here".  OK - there it is again "for the 1st year she lives here".  That definitely conveys the  message it's ok with you if she comes.  See what I'm getting at?  You've accepted it's gonna happen through the language, even if you've clearly articulated at other times that you not are comfortable with her coming to live close.  "For the first year she lives here" is the part they are gonna hear, PJ.  After that, even if it's counselling every two months, it's gonna get ugly unless she has "successfully" completed CBT, DBT.

The worst part of dealing with her aging is not her needs. It's her constant state of fear, panic and absolute misery because she never healed from trauma.

Yes, but the fear, panic and misery direct the need for attention.  Look at the attention she already demands from your H.  Once he's within a convenient driving radius, the opportunity is there for her to get SOO much more attention, control him more, and drive a deeper wedge between you two, because she's competing with you.  She can't help herself when she has that much more opportunity.  And as she ages, all her needs will escalate.

Sorry to paint a dark picture, but I'm living in that world right now.  That's where I am.  And it is dark, and it sucks.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  Prevention is "key".  If I had been given a crystal ball 30 years ago, I would have moved with H to a warmer climate away from mother before we settled down, had kids, and became immersed in our community.  Our life would have been free-er, and had much less chaos.  We would have been healthier, happier, and more joyful.  As it is, she affects every decision we make.  Even which day I shop for her, and when we plan a holiday.  Everything. H and I are not free to move to a warmer climate now, because of mother.  Prevention is key.  I take my hat off to NW who recently said "no" when her mother wanted to move closer to her.  That is the only way to manage the toxicity, in my experience.  It's called distance.  Distance gives space to have an autonomous joyful life.  Toxic people bring chaos.

So I urge you to think long and deep about the words you use with H and MIL.  "For the first year she lives here" is exactly what MIL would want to hear.  Those are the only words that matter.  Once that happens (that she moves close), it will evolve as it will, and that will be outside of your control.

Just my thoughts.

[Methuen]

The other thing PJ is that when I need a break from my mom, H steps into my shoes to do her grocery shopping or whatever "list" she needs done.  When your H is showing signs of stress with his mom, or if he needs a break, who will step into his shoes?  Right now he's been giving me a "break" for about two weeks.  Your H will probably say he will do it all - but that leads to it's own problem.

All things to think about.

[GaGrl]

Do you really believe MIL would willingly go into and complete a DBT program? I doubt it. NOT a realistic objective.

The only way I would consider letting MIL move nearby would be for her to move directly into assisted living. Otherwise, the list of daily and weekly tasks would be physically impossible to manage (as Methuen discovered).

At some point, MIL's physical needs will be more than your H could even fathom helping with -- that's why I suggested listing what her needs would be through the next stages of aging and declining health and capabilities.

Will H be willing to help her with personal care -- showering, dressing, shampooing hair, brushing teeth? Then furthur, as declining liver and kidney function occurs -- massaging, lotioning itchy skin,-- and then changing adult diapers? Preparing food that she can/will eat, preparing and dispensing medications, getting up three times a night because she is having hallucinations?

This is the reality of the last years of life -- I lived it with my mother. If H isn't prepared to do it, then plans need to be made far in advance of MIL reaching that point.

[formflier]

I thought you and hubby were still in counseling?

If it ended, can you share how the decision was made to stop counseling?

I'm going to echo others saying that DBT or any mental health intervention is not realistic.

This is a person not following and getting basic medical care (following dr orders and all that)

The leap is just to great to go from that to regularly attending and/or "participating" in any sort of program.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

FF we last saw our marriage counselor for kids about 4 weeks ago. I need to set up regular appts.

Y'all have given me a lot to think about. I'm taking what you say very seriously, M, because you're living it. I don't use the phrase "if she moves here" but I let H say it, and that's a mistake. I'll write more about that soon.

Starting with a caregiver list to talk through with H, hopefully a reality check for him. I combined comments here with some caregiver lists I found online.

Personal care - showering, dressing, shampooing hair, brushing teeth, toileting, grooming

Food preparation - meal planning for nutrition and preference, shopping, cooking, dishing, feeding, cleaning the kitchen, throwing out old food

Medical care - oversee drug intake and quantity, advocacy when care is insufficient, setting up medical appointments, health insurance paperwork and communication, bill payments, transportation to medical and dental appointments, symptom monitoring, communication with medical providers, picking up medications, dispensing medications, providing massages to ease pain, applying lotion to itchy skin, changing bedding and adult diapers, cleaning up after they have an accident or are sick, addressing continence issues

Mobility - transportation to family events and social functions, transportation to medical appointments, getting outside, move them in and out of wheel chair, entering and exiting a vehicle

Supervision - basic home maintenance, regular dishwashing, sweeping and general cleaning, trash, paying bills and financial accountability, bank account supervision, power of attorney responsibilities, memory care, running errands, 24 hr care in case of emergency, making phone calls

Emotional support and socialization - reliable companionship, playing games, relationship building, time spent laughing and sharing, social activities

Mediation - be the point of contact for bank, doctors, friends, family and lawyers

I found this list, and conservatively, MIL exhibits 13 out of 20: https://commhealthcare.com/sign-parent-might-need-home-care/

A first approach could be to convince H and others in the family that she really needs a level of in-home care now. Doesn't have to be dramatic, maybe a few times a week.

[pursuingJoy]

PJ, I am still really bothered by this.  Are you aware if you have ever used this phrase with your H?

I do think he/they would take ANY use of this phrase as permission. I need to be very, very careful NOT to use any version of this phrase, ever, and I need to be careful to respond with clarity when he uses it...otherwise, I'm leaving the door open.

What I'm taking away, M, is the seriousness of the decision. I follow your story closely even when I don't comment. I know all you're dealing with and it's intense. It would become the same for us. Prevention would address all of this.

When he mentions her moving here, I'll respond with the following:
"She, and you, are getting a lot of amazing help from family - sister, brothers, cousins and grandkids. Don't you think it's important for her to have the entire support system behind her?"

If he pushes, "I will HAVE to move her down here at some point, I don't know what else to do," I respond with,
"What is your plan to make up for the loss of her support system? Do you plan to be her only social contact, and how will this impact our marriage? What parts of this list (in previous post) are you going to cover? Are you willing to support me in my current boundaries regarding her visits?"

OR, perhaps I state very clearly, and in writing so he can't argue that he didn't understand,

"I realized that I haven't been direct with you about my feelings regarding moving your mom here. Moving her here would put a lot of strain on our marriage, strain I'm not sure our relationship would survive. Moving her here is not fair to her - you would pull her away from all other family and become her only social connection. It's also not fair to you. Without support from family, you lose your own support system and that is not sustainable. Moving her here would mean you wouldn't have to drive 2 hrs to see her, but for the above reasons, I strongly believe that it is a very poor plan. I want to go on record saying that I do NOT support you moving your mom here.

I am willing to be a supportive partner to you and help you think through and research options. I firmly believe that she will find the best aging experience in (city where she lives), and that encouraging her to stay there is the best decision for her and for our marriage."

What do you all think?

I don't want you to have to suffer what so many of us who live close to our geriatric BPD mothers suffer.  

Sadly, I would divorce him before being put through that. I am willing to be a partner and a teammate in her care and support him, provided my boundaries are respected. Moving her here is disrespecting my boundaries and I think what I'm getting from you is that I have not communicated that clearly. That's super serious and something I need to correct, SOON. I also don't want to come across as making threats or bullying him. Help!

[GaGrl]

I am tending toward getting in front of it by initiating b the conversation with total clarity. Have the list of responsibilities in your hand for discussion.

Should he, God forbid, move her to your city, he needs to understand the time commitment would preclude his workout schedule, hunting, other activities he values -- while at the same time, those are what would save his sanity.

Is this a conversation you could have in a counseling session?

[zachira]

Is there any way to get your husband to go to individual therapy? Until he has the strength to say no to his mother, not much is going to change. I can't imagine he is happy constantly being manipulated by her.

[formflier]

Perhaps wise to take a couple of steps back.

Is your hubby the POA?  There is no doubt he has "influence" but I would encourage you to focus on..."how are decisions made about Mom"  (stay away from where she lives..)  Just look for patterns.

It may turn out he is the decider...I would bet he is not.

If you look at it from the point of view that he realizes he is not the primary guy, yet he is the "closest relative in family position" (only kid..right)...so he feels bad that he isn't the primary guy.

I think (if that is accurate..please confirm) that is your place of empathy to start from and the "wound" that you need to protect and care for.

As far as what to say...I would suggest

Him.."I think I HAVE to move Mom here."

you "Oh goodness...that seems disastrous.  Her entire support system would collapse."

Note:  I don't think you offer solutions or further analysis.  The less you say..the clearer you say it...the less chance he can "hear what he wants".

Let him do the analysis and hard answering of questions...you are the "asker".  "How much time per week does Cousin Sally spend shopping with Mom?"  That kind of thing.

Another reason I think the simpler approach is better is that all of this "trying to get in front of it" is going to wear you out.  It's going to be hard enough to pull off the disastrous comment with a concerned but empathetic tone.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

Should he, God forbid, move her to your city, he needs to understand the time commitment would preclude his workout schedule, hunting, other activities he values -- while at the same time, those are what would save his sanity.

Is this a conversation you could have in a counseling session?

Exactly, GaGrl. He has to see that he would lose autonomy by moving her here, right?

I scheduled a counseling session today to have this convo.

z, he did a short bit of individual counseling after his last marriage failed, but when our marriage counselor suggested it, he insisted he was fine and didn't need it. I'm still hopeful that he will see someone, someday.

ff, he is POA and is on all of her accounts. He's the primary beneficiary on everything and can make almost every decision she can. He makes some decisions for her, and other times I hear him urging her to make the decision. Later he says he doesn't want to be blamed when it goes bad.

I try to empathize with the feelings he has around guilt while not validating the invalid. MIL has plenty of resources and family. She is hardly destitute, and I, for one, do not hold to the "my children must take care of me when I'm elderly" mandate. At the moment I offer few opinions and ask questions. I know he appreciates this approach much more than any other I've tried. I've also learned from experience that this approach alone and being passive with my boundaries is ineffective with H and MIL. There is wisdom in voicing my limits clearly at some point.

[Methuen]

As far as what to say...I would suggest

Him.."I think I HAVE to move Mom here."

you "Oh goodness...that seems disastrous.  Her entire support system would collapse."

Note:  I don't think you offer solutions or further analysis.  The less you say..the clearer you say it...the less chance he can "hear what he wants".

Let him do the analysis and hard answering of questions...you are the "asker".  "How much time per week does Cousin Sally spend shopping with Mom?"  That kind of thing.  

This has really good merit. You offer a valuable male perspective!  The problem I see is, how much time does he have to "do the analysis and hard answering of questions"...before the decision to move her is already made?  It seems like he struggles with having boundaries with his mother.  It has taken me over two years to work on boundaries with my mom, and I'm still learning, and it's been the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my entire life, and I'm 60 (and I've done plenty of difficult things).  I doubt that in his case, he has anywhere near that much time, before he and his mother decide to move her closer to him.  So I'm not sure how realistic it is to achieve this, with the timeline available.  Still, worth a try to give it a good effort first.

I don't get the impression he has shown a lot of growth in the area of being able to say "no" to her.  Learning boundaries with someone you are so afraid, of takes a long time, and a lot of hard work and determination, to achieve personal growth.  Does he want to do this?  Is he motivated?  Does he see the need for it? 

"As an aside PJ, I am curious, when he and his mom kiss on the mouth to greet or say goodbye, is that a practice they also do when friends and neighbours are present, or just when it's close family like yourself?  Also, could it be cultural?"  I guess what I am curious about is whether he is an equal partner in this practice, or if he does it because she expects it. 

Another reason I think the simpler approach is better is that all of this "trying to get in front of it" is going to wear you out.  

 Personally, I wish I had a crystal ball, and had the opportunity to "get in front of it".  I've been my mom's chosen "emotional caretaker" since her husband died (my dad) 16 years ago (I only came to understand BPD less than 3 years ago), and now she's absolutely intransigent and irrational at the age of 85.  Physically and emotionally infirm (is what I see).  Taxing beyond belief, with a laundry list of serious physical and mental issues.  I am not free to live my life.  Based on my experience, "getting in front of it" is wiser than trying to chase it from behind.  In my case "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" has rung true.  I truly am "worn out".  Based on what I've been through and am still going through, "getting in front of it" would take less physical and emotional energy (the latter being the "kicker").  

Still, the best approach is probably to try letting him do his own analysis first. The male perspective here is super important.  But if time is running out, or he's not making the needed progress, another approach may also be necessary.

[formflier]

For the "getting in front of it thing".

If all the effort paid off and you got in front of it, then it's worth it.

IMO..most of the time people try to "get in front of" or "out BPD..a pwBPD", they expend tons of energy and then the pwBPD does what they are going to do anyway...and the "non" is worn out from all the effort...and has a hard time responding.

Last:  I've had some success in getting in front of things that I suspected were coming by having conversations where "values" are agreed on. 

So in this sense PJ might have conversations about "making joint decisions"..."our marriage comes first" and the like...(without mentioning any specific issue at hand)

Then when an "announcement" is made, instead of arguing against the "announcement", ask how the "announcement" fits with the values previously agreed to.  Don't make the case for it...let them make the case for the announcement.

So..PJ's hubby says, "I've decided to move Mom to X."  PJ could say..."Oh...that's big news.  How do the values we agreed to apply in this instance?"

"Getting in front of it"...that's "you" doing the work.

"Forcing them to wrestle with their own inconsistent and illogical statements/decisions"...puts much more of the burden (and exhaustion) on them.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

PJ wouldn't be trying to "get in front of" decisions made by a pwBPD. She would be "getting in front of" a values (and logistics) conversation with her non H -- BEFORE the MIL might start putting pressure on regarding a move.

Make sense?

[formflier]

BEFORE the MIL might start putting pressure on regarding a move.

Hasn't the pressure already been applied before?  Where does MIL go/not go has been an issue and will likely remain one.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Yes, but a recent injury has now created a more urgent conversation.

[pursuingJoy]

Boundary setting is defined as "the life skill of openly communicating, asserting, and defending personal values." I'm responsible for openly communicating and I always communicate best when I've had time to prepare, so thank you all for helping with that.

He's had moments of saying no and setting better boundaries in the last few years, after specific guidance from our therapist. He's unwilling to explore what's at the root of his dynamic with his mom, which to me indicates he is still vulnerable to falling in step with her.

MIL is not on her manipulative game. In the last few weeks when she calls, he sighs and mutters under his breath, then answers cheerfully. Last night he said, "I hate the way my mom and ex-wife don't have a filter. They say whatever comes to their minds when they're angry and I just hate that, I don't want to be like that." It was the first time he'd put his mom and his ex-wife into the same sentence and critiqued them both for the same behavior.

Guessing a recipe of waify MIL tears and a pinch of BPD sweetness will reel him back in in the near future.

[formflier]

MIL is not on her manipulative game. 

Have any hints or possibilities of a move come up?

Since MIL is off her game (not surprising given age and injury), I think you should give just as much thought to "what if she doesn't bounce back".

What if her level of manipulation and BPDish traits is now fixed a new level?

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

No recent hints or possibilities that I'm aware of, last time he mentioned it to me was a little over a week ago. Counseling session is on the 24th.

It's possible that this is the new normal. In some ways I hope it is. He finds it harder to set boundaries when she is weepy and sweet.

[Notwendy]

I think for all of us with a BPD parent, the ""waif" personality is hardest to deal with.

With my mother, her "Waif" personality is a manipulation. Basically all of them are ( she can change from one to the other in an instant ), but if she can't get what she wants with the Queen or Witch - then she goes to Waif. It's difficult because on one hand, it is a manipulation and yet, on the other, she's elderly and on her own and that is sad- for her and for her children. I wish we didn't have to keep a distance from her- because although she's elderly and on her own, she's emotionally abusive and cruel when we are around her.

It was very difficult to tell her I didn't want her to move near me. She'd bring it up and I'd avoid speaking about it as I don't want to discuss it with her because that would be upsetting for both of us. But she pushed the idea and since the social worker wanted to bring up the topic of assisted living and where that would be, I had to be clear about what I wanted. I realize she has the choice of moving wherever she wants but they asked me what I wanted and the choices were- not tell the truth or be honest about it. I thought about it carefully- what could be the best decision- but the impact just this discussion had was evident- I could not sleep well, and it was stressful.

I realized that I needed the physical distance to be a boundary because it is so hard to have boundaries with her. Distance means I don't have to say "no" to her requests as often because I don't live close enough to her to do daily chores for her like running errands or taking care of her needs. When I visit, the visit is focused on her and I do these things for her. But emotionally, 24/7 of her verbal and emotional abuse is a lot to handle.

So I had to say it. I actually booked a session with a coach/therapist to go over what to say and practice- it was so hard to do. I needed the support. The social worker recorded it. You can hear the trembling in my voice as I spoke. BPD mom started out in Waif mode- and as soon as I said it- out came the Witch and she said some really cruel things. She demanded to know why. I started to JADE ( feel bad about that - but emotionally I was rattled at that point ) and she kept pushing. "I need to know exactly WHY!" and then, I saw where this was going and stopped and let the social worker continue the conversation.

I am sure it was hurtful to her to hear this. I don't want to hurt her feelings.

So, some insight into your H. For him to say no to his mother is very difficult. However, I do think at some point it becomes a choice he needs to make. A normal parent would want their child to have a life of their own and their own family. I certainly hope that for my children and in addition, want to be  involved in their lives but don't expect them to be constantly meeting my needs. But with my own mother, she doesn't seem to care about that. My purpose is to serve her. She'd enlist my kids in that as well if she could. I cringed when I read your H said his daughter would be old enough to drive mother around. Sure, it's one thing to ask a teen to help grandma once in a while- but it's not likely that a teen can be able to have firm boundaries with a disordered one.

So, the issue is- there's a conflict of interest between what is best for the adult child and what their BPD parent wants and this puts your H in a tough position- but I think it's on him to establish what his boundaries with her are.

[GaGrl]

Putting any responsibility for an elderly and frail relative on a teen is too risky. The elder's instability makes getting in and out of a vehicle very difficult. My mother fell getting into our car, and I was unable to keep her from going down -- broken ankle.

[pursuingJoy]

So I brought up my concerns in counseling. Most of the session focused on kids (not a story for today) so we didn't dwell on the MIL moving thing. Our conversation, abbreviated:

Me: H has mentioned moving MIL down here. I have some serious concerns.
Counselor: What are your concerns?
Me: H and MIL lack boundaries. She's a hard person to say 'no' to, and she's mistreated me. She's caused major issues in our relationship. My bigger concern is her care would suffer. He would become her sole go-to for emotional, social, medical advocacy support. It's not fair to her, to me, or him.
Counselor: That makes a lot of sense. Moving here would negatively impact her quality of life. So what do you want?
Me: I don't want her to move down here. If H wants that, I need him to talk to me about what he wants before making plans with MIL.
Counselor: Before even mentioning it to MIL he should broach the subject with you so that you can work out a unified response?
Me: Yes.
Counselor: That sounds reasonable.
H: I don't think mom wants to move down here. I have never mentioned it to my mom and I'm happy to talk to you first.

I know for a fact that he's talked to his mom about it, though it's possible he hasn't brought it up recently.

I feel better, because while I can't control him or her, I communicated in the presence of another person who can attest to the conversation because in the past, H claimed he didn't understand what I said.

[pursuingJoy]

I realized that I needed the physical distance to be a boundary because it is so hard to have boundaries with her.

This is such a great way to put it, NW.

For him to say no to his mother is very difficult.

Thanks for this insight. It's really, really helpful. I don't think he'll ever reach your level of self-awareness or stick up for himself the way you did. I do suspect part of him realizes that his life would change completely if she moved down here, and he is selfish enough (in a healthy way) to want his freedom and autonomy, even if those thoughts also make him feel guilty.

I don't think he'd ever tell her no. I think the best case scenario is if he focuses on her quality of life and care and encourages her to stay there, for her sake.

I need to give him some credit, too. MIL waffles between decisions a lot. One day she'll want to move to another apartment complex because of the severe injustice and mistreatment, the next day she's talked herself out of it because it's too much work. She wants someone else to make all of her decisions, but she also punishes the people that make decisions by complaining. H knows this and is wary.

He isn't honest with himself, but in some ways he is really smart with her. He's had a lifetime of conditioning dealing with her. I've seen him use it wisely a few times so I'm hoping this is one of those times.