Wife moving out - good & bad

[bugwaterguy]

It looks like my wife is moving out.  She is willing to let me keep our current home.  I am not sure how the parental plan will work out.  Despite her issues, I think a divorce is worse for our children, her, me, finances, and many other things.  I still have hope, and I am being realistic.  I do want to save this marriage, but regardless if the marriage survives, we will have a relationship.  I am making changes in my behaviors to help that to happen.

I think she sees moving out as the answer to all her problems.  She has blamed many of her problems on me, rather than owning her part in them.

Here are my hopes & fears for this situation

Potential positives of her moving out:
1.   She might appreciate all the work I do. (cooking, dishes, laundry, sweeping, mopping, snow removal, kids to bed, kids on the bus, lawn, chore enforcement, etc)
2.   If she takes her “hoard” with her, she might come to the realization as she moves it, that it isn’t as valuable as she thought, and question why she was arguing over it
3.   She might realize that the disorganization is her fault, not mine
4.   She might realize her perfectionism is why she can’t keep things organized
5.   She will realize I can do things adequately without her, especially around finances, which she controls right now.
6.   She might miss the emotional support I provide every day by being a non-judgmental listening ear


My fears – which I know I cannot control
1.   The blaming, controlling, anger, and projecting behaviors that have directed toward me will be directed toward the kids.  Rather than owning the problems as her own - she will blame the kids
2.   She will isolate herself from the children when they need her support
3.   She might not feed herself or the kids adequately
4.   She might be in squalor from lack of cleaning
5.   Her and the kids might not have clean clothes to wear
6.   She will force the kids to get rid of their stuff to make room for her “hoard”
7.   She will talk badly about me in front of the children


Does anyone else have thoughts on these things?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[alterK]

Hi bug. It's a tough spot you are in. I’m guessing you already suspect what the answers to your concerns may be. If your W is truly a pwBPD, she is certain that the blame for all the marital problems rests with you, and that her moving out is your fault. Is she going to have some sort of epiphany once she’s alone and will she realize that you aren’t such a terrible person and that she should be more appreciative? Doubtful. If things don’t go well for her, she’ll blame you.

Even if she decides to move back, if she truly has BPD, she’s likely to see that as a concession to something beyond her control, rather than a step she needs to take toward improving the relationship. My uBPDw threatens to move out anytime she starts to feel cornered. If she does leave I’m certain she will blame me, and tell anyone who she can get to listen how impossible I was to live with and how long-suffering she has been for so many years.

Still, you may be able to learn/work out better ways to deal with her, per the books and the other resources we all use, and can hope that this will change her responses.

And of course, concern for your children is always important. I don’t know enough about the situation to be able to say more. I guess all you can do is monitor how they are being treated and use legal resources if things start to get really bad.

[Cat Familiar]

I don’t remember if you’ve mentioned the ages of your children. What occurs to me as a child of a BPD mother that there can be an enormous benefit to being with a parent who is not creating conflict 24/7, even with only 50% custody. Should she be incapable of parenting well, perhaps that number would increase.

Regardless if you’re separated or not, the impact a disordered parent can have on a child is incalculable. That she’s throwing bombs at you on a regular basis and you hope to shield your children by taking the hit—this is not an effective strategy. They will be damaged nonetheless.

I remember how bad I felt when my mother berated my dad. It was frightening. In addition, it was a very bad model of what an adult relationship looked like. I know that it *normalized* poor adult functioning and because of that, I tolerated a very abusive first marriage with a BPD husband.

It’s often said here that: “I’d rather be from a broken home than live in one.”

[bugwaterguy]

My kids are 17 and 10.

My wife is usually controls herself around the children. It is usually just me who takes the brunt of her behavior. 

Anger happens, but much more often it is blaming, projecting, and controlling behaviors.  The subtle nature of it makes it more difficult to defend against. When the anger comes, it is in the form of sharp sarcasm, huffing, rolling eyes.
If it was anger, it might be easier to give kids tools to deal with it - If mom yells at you, you can leave the room.

In our marriage, she has often complained of being unhappy and unappreciated.  When I ask specifically what I can do - she will say things like “you don’t care anyway” or “I have told you before and you didn’t listen” or “you are incapable of doing it - so I am not going to waste my time”.
She often has vague criticism instead of tangible complaint.  I feel inadequate when she does that, and I am concerned about her doing similar things to the children.
She will say that I lack empathy - but when I ask how I can show that to her in a meaningful way, she has no response.

If I disagree in even a mild way - she says things like "we aren't meant to be together" or "you always want things your way" or "you are trying to control me"

[babyducks]

Hello bug,

I'm sorry to hear that your wife is moving out.   I understand that is a hard loss to cope with.    I appreciate how hard you are working here on this website to process and understand what's happening and how to best approach things.   you are doing good work.

I think she sees moving out as the answer to all her problems.  She has blamed many of her problems on me, rather than owning her part in them.

I'd like to introduce the theory of cognitive dissonance for just a minute.   Now any post I make is going to be overly short and simplistic but let's start the ball rolling.

First, I am sure you are correct, your wife blames you for most of her problems.   It might be helpful to understand what is going on with the blame shifting.

Let's say you and I work together.   Yesterday I walked by your desk, and I notice your lunch sitting there, just warm from the microwave.   It smells good.   It's one of my favorites.   I am hungry.   I didn't bring my lunch.    I want it.    I have very poor impulse control, so I walk back and take your lunch while you are away.    It tastes good.    Nice Tupperware.   

But now I have done something bad, and I feel guilty.    I have two choices.   I can admit to myself I did something bad.   Or I can find a way to blame you.  that's basically cognitive dissonance.   

pwBPD have huge amounts of cognitive dissonance.   

So I am sitting here looking at your tupperware and my negative thinking fires off like a rocket.   I am a horrible person.    How could I do that.   What are you going to think when you come back and find your lunch gone.    In addition to having poor impulse control, I also have deficits in executive functioning which means I can't think my way out of this.   I start to tell myself,...bug didn't want his lunch anyhow, that's why it was still sitting there even though it was hot.    I tell myself, oh bug had wandered away to go find a lunch he liked better.    I say to myself,  bug probably didn't even notice his lunch was gone.    I convince myself.   and now I feel better.   See - I didn't do a bad thing,  I didn't steal bug's lunch, he abandoned it.   My sense of self is so weak.   My self-identity so poor I need to believe that I did you a favor by eating the lunch you didn't want.

Is it reasonable to think you made a good lunch, brought it to work, took it to the microwave and then didn't want it?   No.    But this is not about being reasonable.   My need to see this as a favor to you is all about protecting my core wounds, my damaged sense of self and my desperate desperate need to NOT BE BAD.

can you extrapolate this to your wife?

2.   If she takes her “hoard” with her, she might come to the realization as she moves it, that it isn’t as valuable as she thought, and question why she was arguing over it

Hoarding is a whole 'nother thing.     is it reasonable to think that the piece of newspaper from 12 years ago is important and a priceless memento?    again No.   and again this isn't about being reasonable.    it's mostly about using maladaptive coping mechanisms to get needs met.    if you feel empty, unhappy and unappreciated much of the time and that piece of newspaper makes you feel happy for the 2 seconds you hold it, what do you do?    you hang on to the newspaper.    you fill yourself up with things to fill that empty void.

  When I ask specifically what I can do - she will say things like “you don’t care anyway” or “I have told you before and you didn’t listen” or “you are incapable of doing it - so I am not going to waste my time”.

it's often said that pwBPD process the information and the events of life much differently than you and I would.    we tend assume that we are in a romantic relationship with some one who processes information the same as we do and this is often hard to grapple with.

you and I work together and I stop by and say 'hey - want to go get a cup of coffee?'     perhaps your first thought is, 'I've got a meeting in 20 minutes', and then your executive function kicks in with a series of questions and decision making steps.   is there enough time to get a cup of coffee before the meeting.  which is more important the meeting or the coffee.   how thirsty are you.    what's  behind the coffee offer?    and without conscious thought or effort you work your way through that decision tree and come up with 'not right now, maybe some other day.'

your wife and I work together and I stop by and say 'hey - want to go get a cup of coffee?'   perhaps her first thought is 'why does babyducks want to go to coffee?'  and without conscious thought or effort your wife has to work through, what does ducks want from me?  am I supposed to pay for this?   what are people going to think if they see me having coffee with ducks?   is she trying to apologize for stealing bugs lunch the other day?     and she does process all that information and says 'oh NO I am NOT going for coffee with you.'

the answer is the same.   I am getting coffee by myself but the process each of you took to get there is pretty wildly different.

She often has vague criticism instead of tangible complaint.  I feel inadequate when she does that, and I am concerned about her doing similar things to the children.
She will say that I lack empathy - but when I ask how I can show that to her in a meaningful way, she has no response.

no, she isn't able to come up with meaningful detailed responses.   its beyond her ability to process or express emotions at that level.    asking her to be more specific feels like an accusation to her.    detailed complex derivative decision making is often very difficult for pwBPD especially when emotions are heightened.    I'd suggest it's like being color blind.   it's not something they can see.   

sorry this got long winded.
'ducks

[bugwaterguy]

Hey babyducks,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I'd like to introduce the theory of cognitive dissonance for just a minute.   Now any post I make is going to be overly short and simplistic but let's start the ball rolling.

Thanks for bringing up cognitive dissonance.  I get it - it is still frustrating.  Have you ever read this webcomic -
it does a good job of explaining why it is difficult for folks to get beyond their preconceived ideas.  https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

it's mostly about using maladaptive coping mechanisms to get needs met.    if you feel empty, unhappy and unappreciated much of the time and that piece of newspaper makes you feel happy for the 2 seconds you hold it, what do you do?    you hang on to the newspaper.    you fill yourself up with things to fill that empty void.

I get that this is what is happening.  I have tons of empathy for her.  I get why she feels that way.  Unfortunately that insight doesn't improve my situation.  I cannot have insight for someone else.

no, she isn't able to come up with meaningful detailed responses.   its beyond her ability to process or express emotions at that level.    asking her to be more specific feels like an accusation to her.    detailed complex derivative decision making is often very difficult for pwBPD especially when emotions are heightened.    I'd suggest it's like being color blind.   it's not something they can see.

I get this too.  I forget it often.  My wife is high-functioning, and has lots of situational competence, which makes it more difficult to deal with.  It is frustrating that she acts "normal" in so many parts of her life, but not with me. And even with me, she often has situational competence. 

I feel guilty when I read stories about those who are dealing with raging behaviors, because my situation doesn't feel as bad as that.  And it is difficult because no one sees it but me.  Rage and yelling is readily observable, and I believe it is clearer how to set a boundary.  It feels that because she uses obligation, guilt, and withdrawal it is difficult.  If someone yells at you, it is clear what they are doing, and you can walk out of the room.  When someone withdraws, how do you set a boundary around that? 

I also have a difficult time walking the line between caretaking and not expecting more than she is capable of.  It is interesting you mention color blindness, because our son is color blind.  That knowledge allows him to adapt and compensate.  I wish my wife would get diagnosed so she could adapt and compensate - and I cannot control that.

And I still want this relationship.  I think we are better together than apart.  I know on this forum, I focus on the bad stuff.  She is a wonderful person and there is so many good things she does for our children and me. 

She will be moving out in the near future.  We will still have a relationship because of our children.  I have gained so much insight in the past two months, and continue to grow.  I am setting boundaries, not JADEing, and reducing caretaking.  I know changes I am making will be good for our children, her, and me - regardless if we reconcile or not.

Thanks again everyone.

[Couscous]

When someone withdraws how do you set a boundary around that?

If this a power play or if there’s no desire on her part to work on healing her abandonment wounds, then unfortunately there’s nothing that can be done except to accept the situation and to get your emotional needs met outside the relationship.

If it’s more that she has an avoidant attachment style and needs some space in order to be able to re-regulate, then your mission is to learn self-soothing skills, but again, if she’s not doing the work to heal her attachment wounds then this is not a long-term solution.

[bugwaterguy]

If this a power play or if there’s no desire on her part to work on healing her abandonment wounds, then unfortunately there’s nothing that can be done except to accept the situation and to get your emotional needs met outside the relationship.

I don't think it is a power play.  I think she is afraid to be vulnerable.  Her father died just before she turned 3, and her mom was in a long term relationship after that, where the guy cheated on her mom and left.  So she had double abandonment from father figures.  In the past, I have messed up by trying to push her into conversations about it.  I thought it would help her heal - I didn't know any better.  In reality it made things worse as she put up more walls.

If it’s more that she has an avoidant attachment style and needs some space in order to be able to re-regulate, then your mission is to learn self-soothing skills, but again, if she’s not doing the work to heal her attachment wounds then this is not a long-term solution. 

She does have an avoidant attachment style.  I have been a pursuer, and she a distancer.  I understand that now, and I am trying to neither pursue nor distance.

I think some of the avoidance is her splitting herself.  When I bring something up, and she knows I have a legitimate concern, she can't keep in her mind that she can make a mistake and still be a good person, so she withdraws.  I wish I had a magic wand to get her into some DBT.

[Couscous]

There's a type of couple's therapy called PACT that addresses childhood wounding. Another possibility is Emotionally Focused Therapy. Maybe she would be open to trying something like that?

[bugwaterguy]

She is not open to any suggestions from me.  She think I am trying to "fix" her. 

[babyducks]

My wife is high-functioning, and has lots of situational competence, which makes it more difficult to deal with.  It is frustrating that she acts "normal" in so many parts of her life, but not with me. And even with me, she often has situational competence. 

My Ex was/is a very bright woman.  Extremely talented in certain fields.   She could be brilliant about some things and then turn around and 15 minutes later do/say something that would literally make my head snap back because of how confused and befuddled it was.    really makes me wonder about brain structure.

When someone withdraws, how do you set a boundary around that? 

the boundary you set could be about how much you are willing to engage and how you are willing to engage.

boundaries are for you, to protect, encourage and nurture you.   boundaries don't force someone else to do or not do something.    if she is withdrawing you don't want to over pursue, and you don't want to under pursue either.

you might want to consider leaving the door open to simple constructive healthy interactions and how to do that.   and how often to do that.   'wife - I am going to pour another cup of coffee.   can I get you one?'    leaves a small door open a crack.     'wife - I think we should sit down and talk about our future relationship'.    can you see the moving boundaries in those examples?     you might want to draw a temporary boundary around discussions of an emotional nature.    to give you both a cooling off periods.   from what you write it seems she might be relaxing a little bit.    she has released/relieved some of the pressure she was feeling by putting a deposit on another place.     now that the pressure is off, she put away Christmas trimmings and help in the kitchen.      my experience was that my Ex often felt 'better' after a push.    like a bottle of soda that had been shaken and opened the immediate pressure was off and she could function better, almost normally for a while.

[formflier]

So is it accurate to say that your wife's core wound is the "double abandonment" thing you described earlier?  What has your wife ever said about that and were those words prompted by you or what were the circumstances around what she said.

I ask because understanding what the core wound is might help you have a lot more empathy...which can be the "fuel" for you to do the hard work of trying different responses...when her core wound is "pricked" or "threatened" etc etc.

For instance...I have a high degee of certainty that FFw's "core wound" was that she was the "unwanted twin".  

She has an older sister and when her brother was delivered they would have had "the perfect" family...except then FFw was delivered a few minutes later (apparently they didn't realize there were twins).  In an odd way "being unwanted" and "neglected" probably turned out to be a better thing for her than the over-involvement that her brother and sister experienced.  Sister is dramatically more BPD than FFw and her brother is kind of a recluse.

 Since my wife was "left to fend for herself"...she actually figured out some healthy life choices on her own...because she knew she had to figure it out herself...or do without any support.

Uggg...


So...I go through a lot of effort to express that she is wanted, heard, needed..etc etc.  Any time I want to express "displeasure" or "you did something wrong"...I tread very very carefully and often decide it's better for the relationship to "let it go" rather than raising an issue.

Best,

FF

[bugwaterguy]

So is it accurate to say that your wife's core wound is the "double abandonment" thing you described earlier?  What has your wife ever said about that and were those words prompted by you or what were the circumstances around what she said.

She has said that she can't rely on me, or open up emotionally to me, because I might die.  I think her issues with blaming and control relate to that too.  If she blames me for things, she doesn't have to worry about me being gone, because I am the source of all the problems.  She feels she has to control things, because no one else can be trusted to do them "right".

I ask because understanding what the core wound is might help you have a lot more empathy...which can be the "fuel" for you to do the hard work of trying different responses...when her core wound is "pricked" or "threatened" etc etc.

I have lots of empathy - and I am not sure what I can do to help.  This is her wound.  There are lots of folks and resources willing to help - if she would only allow it...     

My different response is not offering to help at all.  I am helping if she asks, and I believe she is asking more often.  I am trying to determine what limits, if any, I should put on her requests for help. 

So...I go through a lot of effort to express that she is wanted, heard, needed..etc etc.  Any time I want to express "displeasure" or "you did something wrong"...I tread very very carefully and often decide it's better for the relationship to "let it go" rather than raising an issue. 

I understand being in that place.  Is there a chance your behaviors are unhealthy caretaking? 

I believe avoiding talking about difficult things had made things worse for my wife's undiagnosed BPD.  I think it slowly moved me to a place where any minor disagreement is a meltdown.

In hindsight, I wished I would've brought up the difficult issues.  When the inevitable blame-shifting occurred - I wish I would've:
- validated her feelings around the issue (but not her actions, or let her tell me how I was feeling)
- never JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain) my side of the issue, but just state things simply and not engage
-set clear boundaries on behaviors when I would leave the conversation

[formflier]

Certainly there is a strong possibility that I have and will continue to "miss the mark".  That's one of the reasons I continue to see a PhD level therapist that understands the dysfunction and the function.


Best,

FF

[Couscous]

To be perfectly honest, based on a few things you’ve written here, it’s beginning to sound to me like she has Complex PTSD. A lot of her behavior doesn’t seem consistent with BPD. Not letting herself get attached to you in case you die is not the same thing as abandonment fear. That is a very avoidant strategy and BPDs are usually emotionally needy and have an anxious/preoccupied attachment style.

[bugwaterguy]

To be perfectly honest, based on a few things you’ve written here, it’s beginning to sound to me like she has Complex PTSD. A lot of her behavior doesn’t seem consistent with BPD. Not letting herself get attached to you in case you die is not the same thing as abandonment fear. That is a very avoidant strategy and BPDs are usually emotionally needy and have an anxious/preoccupied attachment style.

Thanks for that insight.  Maybe it is something different.  I may have confirmation bias going on.  I wish I could get us both into an unbiased mental health professional to discuss it.

[Couscous]

FWIW, when I was interviewing therapists for myself due to some family drama with my BPD brother, all four mentioned BPD within the first minute of our conversation after I gave the first example of his behavior.

[babyducks]

Complex PTSD and BPD express in very similar fashions.   One is an anxiety disorder.     One is personality.   They look on the surface to be very much the same.    That's why trained professionals are important.     and sometimes reluctant to diagnosis.    One of the differences between the two is stability of self imagine.    My Ex often changed her persona very rapidly and very dramatically.    She changed her name 3 times in her life that I know of.   Hair styles, manner of dress,   style of speech, religions, politics, it all could swing 180 degrees in a manner of days.

On the topic of emotional caretaking or caretaking,   I wanted to mention that not all caretaking is considered unhealthy.    as you have noticed, allowing her to decide when and how often she asks for help has produced some positive results.     When we are able to partner and work together with our pwBPD we are moving into healthy territory as opposed to imposing our wishes and will without agreement.

'ducks

[bugwaterguy]

One of the differences between the two is stability of self imagine.    My Ex often changed her persona very rapidly and very dramatically.    She changed her name 3 times in her life that I know of.   Hair styles, manner of dress,   style of speech, religions, politics, it all could swing 180 degrees in a manner of days.   

My wife seems to have an instable sense of self.   She gets into all sorts of fads, and then stops abruptly, often leaving partially finished projects or stuff lying around - or I am left to finish what she starts.  (juicing, grounding, tapping, essential oils, sauna, herb-of-the-month, Buddhism, Wicca, moonology, beekeeping, winemaking, canning, chickens, journaling, bulletproof coffee )  Everyone does this to an extent, but some people are willing to say - I tried that, and it didn't work for me.  She will neither commit to that be something she wants to do, nor say that she wants to get rid of it and the clutter that goes along with it.

She will check out dozens of books on a subject, and never finish them.  She has many apps on her phone that serve the same purpose (like a menstrual tracker) because she can't decide on what one she likes.  She will use multiple apps simultaneously for the same purpose, and then not use any at all.

She has changed jobs every couple years - and says she still doesn't know what she wants to do.  She switches between hippy-style dress, and business style and has a huge amount of clothes and shoes to fit many different moods.  She has difficulty setting goals around any subject.  When I try to get into deep discussion about our values - she cannot articulate her values.

When I ask her what I can do to support her - she says I should "just know" and then blames me on her unhappiness.

[babyducks]

When I ask her what I can do to support her - she says I should "just know" and then blames me on her unhappiness.

Are you still asking her this question?

[bugwaterguy]

When I ask her what I can do to support her - she says I should "just know" and then blames me on her unhappiness.

Are you still asking her this question?

No, I have stopped.  I am doing things she asks, but only if she asks.  I am not trying to anticipate her needs.  I feel like a jerk, because I have stopped doing things like always taking up her dishes from the table, bringing her water to drink whenever I fill mine, and asking if she has laundry to go in before I start it.  I feel weird not automatically doing those things.

[formflier]

I would encourage you to put an additional pause and conversation in the mix when you are asked to do something.  Can you think of the last couple requests you complied with...and perhaps give us some examples of adding in "pause and conversation".

That will give you some thinking time and listening time to see if there is something you "should" do...or if she is trying to hand you her problems.

Think of the "weird feelings" you have as "sore muscles" from a gym workout.  You know you are doing the right thing...yet especially early on in training, it's going to be uncomfortable.  Press through it.

Best,

FF

[bugwaterguy]

Can you think of the last couple requests you complied with...and perhaps give us some examples of adding in "pause and conversation".

There haven't been many requests - getting water a few times when I am up, making sure about picking up the kids.

I am wondering if I have just done everything in response to try to caretake her.  She complains about being overwhelmed, or lacking energy, or in physical pain.  I have gradually taken on more and more work, without her asking.  It has been in part because I have asked her to deal with clutter and and take care of her own stuff.  She says she cannot, so I have tried to make all the space I can.

That will give you some thinking time and listening time to see if there is something you "should" do...or if she is trying to hand you her problems.

I don't even think she has handed me her problems.  I want to own the fact that I took them from her.  She complained about being overwhelmed.  Stuff needed to be done for the functioning of the household, and I did it.    Rather than nag or complain or beg - I just did it.  That was my choice. 

I don't think I was/am resentful of the doing the work.  I believe in "each according to their needs, each according to their ability".  I was frustrated that she keeps saying she is "sacrificing her needs" when she does not share what those needs are.