regular cut offs of 6-12 months, throughout lifetime

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi there - this is my first post, and I will say thanks in advance for reading! I'm glad this resource is here.

I'm reaching out because I'm to a point in my life (I'm in my early 60s) when I need to reduce stress big time due to health issues. (Also I'm just at the age of not wanting to put up with BS from anyone, period. ) One of the stressors is a sister who has moderate BPD. It's become better as she's gotten older; she's several years younger than me. I don't know all the terminology, but she splits,  and devalues. And the biggest problem is cutting off. She does this to me and other family members repeatedly, for months or years at a time. Yes, I have made mistakes trying to maintain a relationship with her. In the past we have had a sort of co-dependent relationship, and I've been untangling myself from it for many years, without totally abandoning her.

Also over the decades I've done a lot of self-improvement, with an interest in Zen and Buddhism, and being non-reactive. I try to approach people with an open heart and the aim to understand and apologize if necessary. I have been somewhat of a doormat in the past, so some of the personal growth has been around saying no, trying to discern what's "too much", and not enabling.

When it comes to my sister, I don't know what to do anymore. She takes turns shutting each family member out; there's always one of us she's not talking to. So currently, it's my turn again. This has happened to me at least a dozen times over the last 40 years. Things are going along just fine for a year or two, and I get lulled into forgetting about how sensitive she can be. Then one day I do or say something "wrong" and boom, we're in that cycle again. Over time, I have learned not to pursue her when she does this, other than to send an apology about not being sensitive to her in some way. (I apologize too much though, in general.) It takes her anywhere from 6-12 months to get back in touch.

I am so tired of this. I love her, think she's a great person, and we are close. But I do have feelings. I have tried to put those feelings aside and not say 'the wrong thing' back to her, but I've never set a boundary around this behavior, because I'm not sure it would work, or is reasonable for a person suffering with BPD. I don't know what to say without alienating her. I feel frustrated getting the rug pulled out from under me again, because it always comes as a total surprise and feels like PTSD in my body, because it's happened so often. She won't talk about it after things blow over; she says it winds her up again and she doesn't want to go there. But I feel abused and helpless to do something about it, because I know BPD's suffer from such intense abandonment fears. She has no real friends and very few people in her life; she leans on me a LOT. It's exhausting and stressful to be one of her only supports. I don't give up on people easily, but I feel like I can't go on this way. I feel stuck. Thanks for listening.

[KeyLimePie]

Hi there - this is my first post, and I will say thanks in advance for reading! I'm glad this resource is here.

I'm reaching out because I'm to a point in my life (I'm in my early 60s) when I need to reduce stress big time due to health issues. (Also I'm just at the age of not wanting to put up with BS from anyone, period. ) One of the stressors is a sister who has moderate BPD. It's become better as she's gotten older; she's several years younger than me. I don't know all the terminology, but she splits,  and devalues. And the biggest problem is cutting off. She does this to me and other family members repeatedly, for months or years at a time. Yes, I have made mistakes trying to maintain a relationship with her. In the past we have had a sort of co-dependent relationship, and I've been untangling myself from it for many years, without totally abandoning her.

Also over the decades I've done a lot of self-improvement, with an interest in Zen and Buddhism, and being non-reactive. I try to approach people with an open heart and the aim to understand and apologize if necessary. I have been somewhat of a doormat in the past, so some of the personal growth has been around saying no, trying to discern what's "too much", and not enabling.

When it comes to my sister, I don't know what to do anymore. She takes turns shutting each family member out; there's always one of us she's not talking to. So currently, it's my turn again. This has happened to me at least a dozen times over the last 40 years. Things are going along just fine for a year or two, and I get lulled into forgetting about how sensitive she can be. Then one day I do or say something "wrong" and boom, we're in that cycle again. Over time, I have learned not to pursue her when she does this, other than to send an apology about not being sensitive to her in some way. (I apologize too much though, in general.) It takes her anywhere from 6-12 months to get back in touch.

I am so tired of this. I love her, think she's a great person, and we are close. But I do have feelings. I have tried to put those feelings aside and not say 'the wrong thing' back to her, but I've never set a boundary around this behavior, because I'm not sure it would work, or is reasonable for a person suffering with BPD. I don't know what to say without alienating her. I feel frustrated getting the rug pulled out from under me again, because it always comes as a total surprise and feels like PTSD in my body, because it's happened so often. She won't talk about it after things blow over; she says it winds her up again and she doesn't want to go there. But I feel abused and helpless to do something about it, because I know BPD's suffer from such intense abandonment fears. She has no real friends and very few people in her life; she leans on me a LOT. It's exhausting and stressful to be one of her only supports. I don't give up on people easily, but I feel like I can't go on this way. I feel stuck. Thanks for listening.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Welcome KeyLimePie,

Yes, it's not easy dealing with on and off relationship like that, being "used" then "discarded" if we don't act a specific way. My brother also has a tendency to do that. He was recently diagnosed with a bipolar disorder and I suspect he has BPD tendancy. I do have to walk on egg shell with him, because he is very sensitive as well and he shut me out and gives me the cold shoulder whenever I don't say what he wants to hear.

However, part of it is on me... I realized recently that, since we were both raised by a borderline mother, we have a pretty clear Karpman Triangle dynamic where my mother is the rescuer, he is the victim and I was the persecutor. So with him, I have a tendency to use that role. I see him through the filter of our upbringing and it's taken me a long time to see it. I don't see him, I see "risks" for abuse and fights whenever I talk with him. I am now in the process of taking a step back to better understand myself and untangle myself from the family dynamic, hoping that maybe some day I can help him realize that he was abused (he knows but still doesn't realize our mother was the main abuser...).

Are you familiar with Karpman Triangle? It was an eye opener for me. Do you find there is some kind of dynamic like that between you and your sister?

People with BPD do suffer... But since you mentioned "having been a door mat" or that the cut off gives you PTSD feelings... I suspect you also went through a lot of trauma yourself.

I find that..during my childhood, my brother often took on the role of protector with me. And while our current relationship sometimes cause me grief, I find it very hard to be cut off or in bad terms with him, because .. "we were in this together". But sometimes, it truly is needed, and there is nothing wrong in taking a step back to heal and untangle.

Welcome again, I hope this forum helps you as much as it helps me.  So much knowledge and wisdom on here.

[KeyLimePie]

Riv3rW0lf, thank you. I had not heard of the Karpman Triangle, interesting. I feel like I've heard everything else - I'm sort of a veteran of therapy since my teen years.

I was definitely put in a rescuer role starting as a teenager. I became the family water smoother, the peacemaker between my sister and dad who didn't get along.

Regarding the PTSD - My dad, now 93, is most definitely a narcissist, with a lifelong temper, extremely critical, invalidating nature, and inability to change. When we were young he scared the crap out of us with his rages, and up until we were 12, he spanked. Other times he was loving, but he could explode at the drop of a hat. He has caused a lot of damage in our family, from our earliest years. So all us kids have PTSD and some mental health issues. Plenty of psychological trauma in this white middle class family. Mom was ineffective in mitigating most of this - we could go to her for comfort, but she seemed helpless to do much but scold him and tell us us that he was under a lot of work stress. She was afraid of anger in anyone. (He didn't treat her the way he did us, though.)

Although I've been slowly shedding my rescuer role in the family for the last 15-20 years, there's always a little kernel that remains. I'm one of those highly sensitive people who's very empathetic. I've done a lot of psychological work, am a good listener, and consider myself fairly wise. My values are such that I don't walk away from my family. Over recent years I'm doing less 'helping by listening', because as I get older, it's too draining. It's unfortunate and stressful that we all now have to deal with my Dad's Parkinson's and dementia; he lives across the country and he has made it very difficult for us to help him.

[Notwendy]

The Karpman triangle has been very helpful in understanding that these dynamics are not personal- and are a part of how a pwBPD relates to others. Even if the "reason" they give for their behaviors is supposedly something we said, or did, or didn't say, or didn't do- the actual reason is their own uncomfortable feelings projected outward on to someone, or something else. If that happens to be you, well, it's you-- this time, but as you see, it can vary to others as well.

There's also a push-pull pattern to a relationship with a pwBPD. Ironically, the BPD behaviors are more with the most intimate of relationships. This is why a pwBPD seems to be able to "hold it together" with more casual acquaintances. When we see this, we start to think- well if she's OK with them, what are we doing wrong? But actually, a more casual relationship requires less of an emotional connection, and it's easier to maintain it. This is something we all do in general. We are more formal with casual and business relationships than our closer ones, and I think this is more exaggerated with someone with BPD.

I think there's fear on their part that people only love the "good" side of them, the one they present to casual relationships. When I see my BPD mother's interactions, in this setting, it feels fake. She's good at presenting a persona. People like "her", but that persona isn't all real. So they get a lot of love and attention for the persona.

The key to understanding your sister is that she's complex and not just the good part when she's painting you all white, but the rest of it. I am not really familiar with Zen and Buddhism, but I have heard there's an element to a sort of loving detachment- and I think this can help with interacting with someone with BPD. Their emotions will sway, you stay steady and don't react with emotions on your part.

The other part is knowing your limits. Many of us are sensitive to other people's emotions- being that this has been a sort of survival skill when growing up in a family with dysfunction. We learned to be aware of the emotional states of our unpredictable family members. We can hold our limits and boundaries with their behavior. We don't have to allow them to be abusive to us. Many of us have learned to take on a rescuer role with our dysfunctional family members and we can learn the difference between choosing to be kind or supportive and rescuing- it's fine line between the two but when we rescue, we feel resentment and if we are doing too much. You can choose how much contact you wish to have with your sister, and how much you are willing to do.

[KeyLimePie]

Thank you Notwendy, your words are wise. And yep, loving detachment is what I've learned to do - most of the time. Unfortunately in this particular case, I could not gather myself to do that, due to health issues. The shock of having the rug pulled from under me yet again made me tearfully snap; I said firmly that "I don't like your tone of voice (she was accusing me of something). I don't want to talk about this now, goodbye." I think it's the first time I ever sorta hung up on her.

The real question then: I'm not sure how to formulate and phrase a boundary with her. I can't find many suitable examples online. How I feel is this: because I have my own mental health struggles and PTSD, from episodes with her and dad over the decades, and from having a highly sensitive nervous system in general - I can't do it anymore. I don't want to. But I don't feel I can go no contact either. (Low contact is my hope, though that is hard with dad who lives across the country, has Parkinson's and moderate dementia, and end of life stuff is coming up.)  

The pattern: things are hunky dory for a couple of years. During those times I get the expensive gifts, even mood, a bit too much closeness. This lulls me into thinking we're on even ground. Recently I could sense something might be coming due to expensive gifts. At times the shock is almost a feeling of terror, depending on how well my thyroid and other medication is working to keep my own emotions steady. It causes stress and takes a few days for my nervous system to calm down.

I've had therapy around the PTSD, but not recently. As I get older, I'm aware that stress is contributing to health problems that will get worse unless I make immediate changes to family relationships. So what is my boundary/limit with her, since it's not realistic to ask her to stop doing what she can't help? And to stop cutoffs?

I do love her; she no longer has the extremes of behavior she did when she was younger, and the regular cutoffs with attendant accusations are the main thing she does to the family. But frankly, she and dad take up so much of my mental energy, even in the better times. I feel better when I'm only occasionally in touch. For the last 10 days I've had my phone blocked to both of them, and I can't tell you what a relief it is. I feel glimmers of my real self again, of having energy for things besides work and them. So for my sis, the question is what do I say, and how to not get sucked back into spending regular time with her once she cools off. I probably have a few months to a year to think of something, LOL.

[GaGrl]

Boundaries are interesting and can be difficult to grasp.

Boundaries are based on your values, which gives you the foundation of defining your limits. And boundaries are for you -- not to control anyone else's behavior (which is impossible anyway).

You can phrase your boundary for yourself. It isn't anything that needs to be announced.  You just need to be clear what your action will be should your boundary be crossed.

So to start -- what is your value(s) around your sister and your family, and what behaviors are so disruptive to your values that they require a boundary.

[KeyLimePie]

Thanks,  GaGrl. Good questions, because values can shift at different stages of life. One value used to be 'don't turn family away'  - but now this value might be 'mental and physical health before family' because health issues will be with me until my last days, given the average person over 60's experience.

Family enmeshment issues remain hard to totally reverse no matter how much work I've done or awareness that I have. Despite all our family dysfunction we have all been close until the last few years. So it is really hard to figure out what the values and goals now are around family, but my health is an indicator. How to find middle ground is the challenge, and I don't know how to apply a value to that, or how to state it to my sister and dad, other than to say most of what I've said here (the stuff that's not triggering or blaming sounding, just descriptive.)

[KeyLimePie]

I should add, I do have a value around respectful communication. Being cut off for months is not respectful in my book, but knowing that she can't control her emotional dysregulation, I have given her a lot of leeway. (Some might say 'made excuses for.') I am not a black and white, right and wrong kind of person; I factor in circumstances, always. Were there more extreme behavior, it would be easier to answer.

[madeline7]

What I was feeling as I read your post was that you have done a great job of being loving and compassionate throughout your lifetime. It seems that your sister dictates who and when she will communicate with someone.  You and I are around the same age, and it really feels like a lifetime, because it kind of is. I am realizing that there is nothing I can do to help my uBPDm, and she has gotten worse as she ages. I am working hard to be more in control of my life, meaning it is not up to my Mom to dictate when she will talk to me. It is challenging, but it is a necessary step for me to assert control over my life, rather than being subjected to the needs of a narcissistic family member. I do admire your capacity for empathy, and maybe I have to look into zen and Buddhism, but right now I am worn out and angry that I have a Mother that is not empathetic, and every child deserves that. You sound like the best sister she could ever wish for, but you deserve mutual respect.

[KeyLimePie]

Thank you madeline7, I appreciate your comment about being the best sister she could ever have, because it's true. LOL. I get what you're saying about needing your mom to meet you on your terms. Here's a question for both of us: if they can't give us what they clearly don't have, meaning empathy and no silent treatment/cutoffs in our cases, are we emotionally ready and able to go low or no contact? Or is there a compromise that suits us? Is there inner work we still need to do? And can old dogs learn new tricks? Stay tuned for next week's exciting episode!  

For myself, I'm thinking about the following: The next time she reaches back out, which could be months from now, I will say, "Listen, this thing between us has happened now a dozen times across the years. You've said that time is what you need to clear your head; I can understand that. The way it happens is what's really upsetting to me. We're getting along great, hanging out regularly, when out of the blue you get angry and, without a word, you go silent for months and sometimes years at a time. When you come back, you're unable to talk about it. As I've mentioned before, it's super stressful to have this keep happening. I love you, and it's painful to be in this pattern with you. Until now, I've been able to deal with it even though I don't like it, because I know you struggle; I've wanted to be supportive and understanding. I've made mistakes, no question, though I have always tried to be aware of and apologize for those. I also know we have enmeshed boundaries in our family that are very old, and I want to do more work on those for myself. Anyway, until now I've been able to hold my own. But my health is changing and stress is the first thing to make health problems worse. I understand now that good health is more precious than I ever knew, so that's my first priority going forward. This pattern has to change, because I don't want to do it anymore."

That seems about as non-blaming and self-loving as I can think of!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi again KeyLimePie

I just wanted to share some of my own insights and recent experience when it comes to expressing oneself.

Recently, I had a "fallout" with my uBPDm. I was supposed to stay there with my children (I really believed it would work which was naive and stupid, I didn't realize then how sick she was) to get some help with school/work, finding a new house, etc. I ended up leaving in a hurry because of all the crisis it brought on. Being in her house brought back the abuse that I endured through my life, and I ended up in a state of emotional chaos. I now know I probably have cPTSD and was having emotional flashbacks which became very hard to manage.

I left and it hurt my uBPDm very deeply... Then I started low contact. I told her I needed time to understand everything. She sent me texts, trying to win back something. Some were detached, others aggressive, sometimes even loving. She called my brother whom told me she was deeply hurt. Then she disowned me, then she said she would always be my mother. I wasn't answering anything so she just kept on going in circles while I kept asking for some time to heal and that I loved her and was grateful for her help.

I ended up writing her an email using non violent communication. No blame, lots of validation. I recognized her needs, but articulated mine. I am a firm believer that it is healthy to express what we feel.

This being said, we all have to detach from the answer we will get. You express yourself and then you detach yourself from the answer. Especially with BPD... Because their answer will have nothing to do with you and your letter.

In my case, not only did she not answer, she also disregarded some of the boundaries and tried to reel herself back in by texting me almost everyday asking for news, even if I had clearly expressed I needed time. I offered to call her during the weekend so she could see her grandchildren, I gave her a time limit after which I'd be too busy moving houses and she said no, then proceeded to demand I call her on the precise date I said I would be too busy.

Everything was about her regaining control. Not about understanding what I wrote.

Whatever you tell your sister... Do it for yourself and detach yourself. Because pwBPD have a hard time actually hearing and reading what someone means. Everything is read and understood through their trauma. And don't take whatever answer she gives you personnally in the event she doesn't like your letter...  

This all being said, I do hope you get the response you are hoping for, or at least the results you need for your health. Hugs.

[KeyLimePie]

Yes, Riv3rW0lf, you are so right about making sure I'm doing this for myself and not because I'm expecting the change I want. I think the only thing that gives me hope is that she has really grown in recent years; she has changed some. So I have hope for her own sake, because I want more happiness for her. And  hope for my sake too. But you're smart to remind me of the real goal here, which is self care.

I wasn't  going to write to her with this necessarily, because I think she blocks people she's cut off for a while. I planned to tell her next time we saw each other in person, or at the least, on the phone...

[Riv3rW0lf]

Phone or in person, for me, is unmanageable. I would like to be able to express myself with her in person, but the trauma is so big that I become very anxious and act guarded. My guard brings up her own guard and it rarely ends well. Letters allow me to weight my words more carefully and take out all the blame for real. In person, my body language sometimes gives away my pain and hurt but also my anger... And she never reacts well to those. She is my mother, so she knows my body languages very well, and it's like she stops hearing the words that I choose to convey. She starts feeling guilty and then flips her guilt back on me... For a in person conversation, I have to be really calm and assertive, and this state is only possible with her when the conversation isn't about me.

[KeyLimePie]

Does your mother read what you send, if you have done this in the past? That would be a nice bonus to know that it got read. :-)  Does she respond?

Sis has told me that she doesn't open letters from anyone who's on her do not talk list. She just throws them right in the trash. I guess that's why I don't bother with snail mail. Texting and email, maybe will work after a handful of months when I get unblocked, assuming that I am, which is her MO.

[zachira]

My heart goes out to you. I have several people with BPD and NPD in both my family of origin and extended family. With age, we seem to be less able to tolerate the mistreatment. As our bodies become more aware of the traumas inflicted by the mistreatment, we become less able to tolerate another round of abuse. There are no words to describe what it is like to feel unsafe with a family member who is important to us, to never know when we are in for another round of feelings projected onto us that belong to the person who is upset and not to us. As we become more aware that we are reaching our limits of tolerance with how a family member mistreats us, it becomes time to decide to reexamine our boundaries with this person. A boundary that is key to our well being is understanding our mirror neurons, especially if we are highly empathetic with a person, to understand that we will take on the disturbing emotions that our disordered family member is dumping on us, if we don't set better boundaries. One of the best pieces of advice my therapist gave me, was to focus on what I was feeling inside when in the presence of a disordered person instead of observing their behaviors. I also find it helpful to meditate regularly so that uncomfortable feelings get processed and I move on to feeling better within a relatively short period of time. The silent treatment is one of the most painful forms of abuse. Do not underestimate how being given the silent treatment by your sister affects you. We are here to listen and support you, as so many of us on PSI have similar experiences with disordered family members, and we have benefited from the regular support of others who understand.

[madeline7]

You mentioned a compromise, and thinking about expressing yourself to your sister. While your thoughts are entirely reasonable, a pwBPD is not usually reasonable. You did say she has changed some, and that is wonderful to hear and maybe then you can have hope that you will reach her with your words. In my case, I have had to learn the hard way that I cannot reason with an unreasonable person. That my uBPDm does not have the capacity to hear things no matter how loving and non confrontational they are. She sees things through her distorted lens and if you don't go along with her, she feels attacked. It's black and white with her, and it's all about her. I did read Sylvia Boorstein's book, It's Easier than you Think, my short foray into learning about Buddhist teachings, There was a story about an angry elderly Grandmother, being visited by her granddaughter as she lay on her death bed. The grandmother memory was failing, and said this to her granddaughter, "I know I am angry with your Mom, but I don't remember why. But I do remember that I am angry". Or something like that. This will be my Mother's legacy.

[KeyLimePie]

Madeline7, having a BPD mother seems so much harder than a sibling; I really feel for you and others in the same position. It sounds like you know exactly where you stand, though, and that's a good thing, painful as it may be.

Just FYI, by compromise I didn't mean with the BPD, but within myself, i.e., no contact vs. low contact. For me, low contact would be the compromise, since so far no contact doesn't feel quite right for my particular situation (not judging anyone else though).  

[madeline7]

Key Lime Pie
I used to think that "my" situation was worse than others due to the mother-daughter relationship and the expectations that arise from this dynamic. But being on this board, and working through my many issues has taught me that everyone has the right to feel what they do, to receive love and support. You have been dealing with your sister since you were a child, and may continue to make your compromises between LC and NC for many years to come. This is hard, for everyone. You have so much wisdom in your words and actions. That's the silver lining to having a family member with BPD, we learn to be empathetic, sometimes the hard way, but we learn how to love, and we learn what not to do.

[KeyLimePie]

Zachira I meant to thank you earlier for your comments about aging and reaching limits. It does seem  that women in particular reach the point of no BS some time after menopause. (There are so many divorces around that time of life.) Estrogen is a caretaking hormone, all about nurturing, and once the offspring are gone and procreation has stopped, nature has less need for estrogen. I look forward to my no-nonsense future!

I will have to research how mirror neurons differ from person to person, because not all of us have the same sensitivity and empathy, even though we all have mirror neurons. Interesting point you bring up!