Is it over for real?

[IsThisRealLife?]

The last time I posted, I mentioned that my uBPD mother told me to F off and hung up on me. I gave her space but pretty much knew she would not reach out to me. After two months, I decided to call and check in on her. She is my mom and I still care about her, and to be honest I wanted to feel better about the situation by at least reaching out. In the conversation she just continued to not believe anything I said, brought up all the mean and evil things I’ve done to her, and wouldn’t hear what I was saying at all. She said that she was done being hurt by me and that our relationship was done. I asked her if she really wanted to end our relationship and have two children that she doesn’t talk to. (My brother and my mom don’t speak). She said yes, that is her choice.
So my question is…do I just accept this? Do I try to reach out again in a few months? I have to be honest that when she wasn’t talking to me, I wasn’t terribly upset because I had less drama to deal with. At the same time, I don’t want the rest of our family encounters to be awkward. I still have a close relationship with my dad, so it’s not like I can avoid her completely. I guess the question is…what is my role at this point? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks for listening.

[Turkish]

Your role is to be a parent to your children. To her? Complicated as you're both adults. From your first post:

She told me today that she has spent thousands of dollars on me throughout my life and therefore I should do anything she asks me too.

This is Queenish behavior (you're her "subject" to be ruled), yet from other things that you write, this seems like a thin veneer for a Waif (rescue me).

Do you feel like she's drawn a line in the sand and that if you don't reach out that she never will?

[missing NC]

Hello IsThisRealLife,

When you called her after two months, did you bring up the estrangement or talk about mending your relationship?  The usual modus operandi for individuals with BPD is to act as if the upsets never happened. So if you want to resume and maintain a ("therapeutic") relationship with her, just glossing over the past may work.  If you simply greet her warmly, maintaining a slight smile at all times and show interest in her at the next family gathering, there is a good chance you will be able to resume a superficial relationship.  

Wishing you luck!

[Goldcrest]

It's horrible isn't it. I have this on/off thing with my mother at the moment because I keep losing my temper with her (something I have only been able to do since my dads death) but when there is no contact I feel full of guilt and worry for her, despite her despicable behaviour.

In my own experience the choice is you go along with all the awful and wrong things she says about you and you're back in the misery, or you refuse to accept it and the stalemate continues. It is up to you if you want to check in - I guess - when you need to. Checking in won't be seen in the caring manner that it is intended.

With my own mum I fantasise every day about a complete no contact. I literally stand on the precipice looking into the abyss of no contact. Just last week I lost my temper yet again with her when I was being accused, unfairly, of blocking probate for my dads death. I am currently instigating a two week break from contact and it will be the first time in 4 years that I have not contacted her daily by text at the very least - so strong is my FOG. I've blocked her number, which is a new one for me and shows me how far I have been pushed.

How would it feel for you to not have contact with her? Will you still be able to see your dad, does he have some sense of what she is like?

[Notwendy]

Missing NC makes a good point- do not bring up anything your mother has said or done in the past. Many times for them, it's an emotional release to say/do hurtful things ( I compare it to a child who ate too much candy, throws up, then runs off to play because they feel better ). For your mother, once these "feelings" are out, she feels better, assumes you do too. Bringing up anything hurtful that was said/done leads to another angry outburst on her part.

Getting angry at her is also not useful- the anger will be returned. With BPD two things are going on- projection and denial. Uncomfortable feelings are perceived as being from someone or something else. Their own feelings of shame are unbearable- they can not feel as if anything they did is wrong and the rage/dissociation is how they deal with that.

Is your relationship with her over? I don't think the relationship is over but it's at the level that she can manage any relationship. I think it will help to understand that this isn't personal- it's not about you, or anything you have done. More than likely you have done a lot to carry the emotional responsibility of this relationship and it may feel one way- because of her emotional limitations. What may be happening is that- the kind of relationship you want may not be possible. There is a real grief in this. I think many of us can relate to wanting a normal and loving mother-daughter relationship, and trying our best to have this, but then, realizing we need to accept that the mother we have is the one we have and relating to her at the extent she can manage ( and we can manage as well, because it can be an emotionally abusive situation for us).

The Karpman triangle dynamics helped me to understand my mother's behavior. She is in victim mode, no matter how nice I am or try to do nice things, she will see it from a victim perspective and focus on what I didn't do, or what I did wrong, and assume I did it on purpose to hurt her. It helped me to understand that this wasn't about me. She takes this perspective with others too.

For me, my relationship with her is about balance. How much contact can I manage- because I do want to keep contact with her, but she's emotionally and verbally abusive, and so I have to limit how much contact I have with her. I treat her with kindness but I have boundaries. I keep an emotional distance because I don't want this kind of drama with her. I have no expectations of her- none at all, and I don't react to her emotionally. What I have found, sadly, is that drama is the way she relates to people. Without drama, our relationship feels a sort of emptiness, but it's who she is, she's always been this way, and yes, there's grief to understanding the limits.

My father is deceased but to have a relationship with him, had to include her. If your parents are still together, then they likely are enmeshed. On your part, I would be cordial, polite and smile at her when you see your parents again. Act like nothing happened. Take middle ground. Don't push her for a relationship but also don't go along with her "it's over". Don't reach out again- don't pursue her. The on-off is part of the drama. But if you have contact with her, smile, be polite. If she still doesn't talk to you, that's on her. You don't react either way.

As to money. My mother uses money to control people too. I don't accept any money from her, it's a form of control. On the other hand, she rarely as offered any. I have been her scapegoat child. My father was the wage earner in the family and she controlled what he gave me. Once I left home for college, they did help some, but mostly I was on my own. I have watched her do this to the golden child in the family though. It may seem unfair but in the long run, I became independent financially sooner. Eventually the golden child caught on to this and did too. Money is not a gift from my mother. It's a form of control for her. It's best to not accept it. You don't need to return what yours gave you, but consider not accepting any more if you are able to manage that.

[missing NC]

Beautifully put, Notwendy.

[Methuen]

The last time I posted, I mentioned that my uBPD mother told me to F off and hung up on me. I gave her space but pretty much knew she would not reach out to me. After two months, I decided to call and check in on her.

I think it's ok to call in and check on her as long as you have absolutely no expectations that anything will change, or she will come around and see that she has made mistakes, or that this will ever be a genuine reciprocal and healthy relationship.  If there is any part of you that is still hoping for this, you are probably setting yourself up for more hurt and disappointment. Accepting this is a super difficult process that takes time and involves grief.  I think whether or not you continue to check in with her, depends on what your intent for doing it is.

In the conversation she just continued to not believe anything I said, brought up all the mean and evil things I’ve done to her, and wouldn’t hear what I was saying at all.

When you say she wouldn't hear what you were saying at all, were you by any chance trying to explain yourself, or justify or defend yourself?  Are you familiar with JADE? and why not to JADE?
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.20

Like others have said, I would not try to bring up the past, to try to resolve old issues.  They cannot be resolved, unless she goes to therapy and successfully recovers.  Accept that, and your life will get a little bit easier.  If she brings the past up, change the topic.  If she insists on continuing with past drama, say "I have to go now".

She said that she was done being hurt by me and that our relationship was done. I asked her if she really wanted to end our relationship and have two children that she doesn’t talk to. (My brother and my mom don’t speak). She said yes, that is her choice.

In the future, I would urge caution about asking questions of the type where you might not like the answer, or be uncomfortable with her answer.  With a healthy person, it will make them pause and think, because they still have a rational brain.  Anecdotally, I can say I do not believe my mother has much rational brain, because her brain is wired up to work on emotions, not rational thinking.  So these kinds of tactics (i.e. asking the question "do you really want to end the relationship and have 2 children you don't talk to") don't really work for a few reasons. One is because she doesn't have the executive functioning to predict consequences.  Another is because in that moment, she is hurting from the trigger of the conversation (not because of you, but from whatever life events caused her BPD in the first place and after that anything can become a trigger), and so the emotional part of her brain is what is firing, and in that moment, she truly believes she wants to end the relationship.  It really isn't about you dear friend.  It's her disease saying those things.  It feels personal at the time, but it's really not. Anyways, my point is to reflect on whether asking those kinds of questions is worth the risk of the answer you will probably get.

So my question is…do I just accept this? Do I try to reach out again in a few months?

I think it depends on your situation, and your personal values.  It sounds like you are maybe uncomfortable with accepting it.  I would be too.  I also stay in contact with my mom, and am a big part of her life, but I am learning to do it on my terms, even if it means she doesn't like my terms and rages at me.

So, to make the next phone call with your mom go more smoothly, I would avoid talking about past conflicts, or her behaviors, avoid JADEing, and have no expectations from her as your mother.  Avoid sharing personal information with her that she can eventually use against you.
A superficial relationship won't be the satisfying "mother-daughter" relationship we all want, but it might be the middle ground between a lifetime of drama and conflict, and no-contact at all.

Not sure if any of this is helpful.  If not, feel free to ignore! Just my experience and perspective after navigating 60 years with bpd mom.

[IsThisRealLife?]

When you called her after two months, did you bring up the estrangement or talk about mending your relationship?  The usual modus operandi for individuals with BPD is to act as if the upsets never happened.

Thank you for your reply, Missing NC. My mom does that thing were she won't mention anything about our last conversation, but rather is just very terse and cold. She will just reply with one-word answers. This time I did say something like, "I don't like how we left off with our last conversation," and that set her off. I guess I just have to deal with the short, cold answers if I still want to maintain any kind of contact.

[IsThisRealLife?]

First of all, NotWendy, thank you for such a detailed response. I am still fairly new to this site and I am amazed and grateful for the kindness of everyone on here. You take the time to write this long and insightful responses to help someone you don't even know. And believe me, it is helping a lot.

The Karpman triangle dynamics helped me to understand my mother's behavior. She is in victim mode, no matter how nice I am or try to do nice things, she will see it from a victim perspective and focus on what I didn't do, or what I did wrong, and assume I did it on purpose to hurt her. It helped me to understand that this wasn't about me. She takes this perspective with others too.

This is like you were listening in on my phone conversation with my mom! This is exactly what she says and does. You are right that I have to come to terms with the fact that I can't take these things personally.

The complicated thing about going NC with my mom is that she and my dad live with my sister and her kids. So I cannot ignore seeing her at all if I also want to see my dad and my niece and nephews. My dad is fine hanging out with me without mom. He doesn't support her accusations, so I am lucky that I can still have a relationship with him. It is difficult, however, to avoid mom's drama when I want to hang out with my sister and her kids. My sister is just pretty disconnected from the whole thing. She just puts up with my mom because she lives with her.

[IsThisRealLife?]

Methuen, thanks for taking the time to write all of that in your post. You bring up some great points about JADE. I was definitely trying to justify my actions too much.
I think everyone in this thread is correct in saying that I have to come to terms with the idea that my relationship with my mother is never going to be what it used to be. I have to learn to deal with being okay with a cordial relationship and nothing more. That’s definitely going to hurt, but in the long wrong will be better for me.

Thanks again everyone for their replies. Very kind of you all to share your experiences.

[Notwendy]

I am glad to help and share. These dynamics are so bewildering- I think it helps to see the common patterns and know it's not just with you.

It's not comfortable to have your mother give you the cold shoulder when you are visiting your father and sister, but it seems they have gotten used to how to handle these things. (it surely bother's them too but they seem to shrug it off).

One thing that helps me is the idea of "medium chill"- just going inert. Don't show any reaction other than calm. It takes some practice. I have heard it described as "grey rock". Imagine someone put a rock in your house. It would just sit there, not reacting, not participating. Now, don't tolerate abuse if she begins that, but if she's ignoring you or speaking to you in one word responses, smile, be the rock. Not being reactive gets better with practice and also doesn't reinforce her behavior.