About pwBPD's heart

[Depression = 72% of members]

So ... I am reading Pete Walker's Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving.

And I came upon this passage where he talks about the four F and how the hybrids Fight-Fawn were often accused of being borderlines, because everything they give comes with a price, that they are similar to the Charming Bully, etc.

He goes on to say that it's unfair, because Fight-Fawn hybrids can really show remorse and they have a good hearth.  While BPD have a narcissistic heart.

And it triggered me, because.. First, the way I understand BPD is that it is an abandonment issue.  I do really think my mother is BPD because:
1) In November, when I left her house to go elsewhere and came back, something had shifted in her. The mere fact of leaving for a week had triggered something and she seemed distressed, which brought back all those times I was coming back from my father's house. She would be mad, she would tell me I was abandoning her, or that I would abandon her someday. This was a common refrain in our house. And one that my father echoed many times when he talked about their past relationship, how "she had abandonment issues".  That's also when everything started going downhill in November. It heavily triggered her.
2) She was an alcoholic, and while she doesn't drink anymore, she is still considered an alcoholic. She does take other drugs, although she does seem to have her consommation issues under control, and she is a reckless spender, buying second hands things she absolutely doesn't need.
3) She is impulsive, she will move from a town to another in the glimpse of an eye just because she doesn't feel good there anymore. She changed jobs four time (four very different jobs). She doesn't really know what she wants to do.
4) she told me many times she feels empty, to a point where it is physical. She told me last November that having MY children in HER house made her feel whole... which is why she is so intense with them. When I leave with them, it's like I am ripping her off.  
5) She has strong emotional outbursts and violent mood swings.
6) She told me many times she would kill herself and she doesn't go to the dentist or the doctor when she hurts. she endures physical pain and will keep working as if she liked hurting. The doctor once asked her why she didn't come in sooner, her bones were basically cracked from the abuse she had put her body through and she said she didn't feel it... I think she likes the body pain.
7) while she has been with my stepfather for 20 years now, I've seen many different men coming in and out of our household before she met him, and NO friends that remained through the years, so instable relationships.

She exhibits all the traits of the borderline and she does have narcissistic tendancies : but I wouldn't say she doesn't have a good heart. I think she feels remorse as well, even though she has a really hard time admitting it. When I read this specific passage, it's as if he means borderlines cannot show remorse and I think they can, they just don't do it like we do. And they are self destructive and will hurt people around them, but they are not evil.

I'm not sure why I am writing this... I just started questioning if my mother was maybe a fight-fawn, and not a borderline... But writing it all down brought back the truth that she really is borderline, because, mainly, of the abandonment at the hearth of her problems.

There are evil people, but I am not ready to say all borderlines are evil I guess. Even though some might well be... I guess I didn't like the gross generalization. Otherwise, so far, it is an amazing book, with lots of very helpful advices.

Rant over. Thank you.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So ... I am reading Pete Walker's Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving.

And I came upon this passage where he talks about the four F and how the hybrids Fight-Fawn were often accused of being borderlines, because everything they give comes with a price, that they are similar to the Charming Bully, etc.

He goes on to say that it's unfair, because Fight-Fawn hybrids can really show remorse and they have a good hearth.  While BPD have a narcissistic heart.

And it triggered me, because.. First, the way I understand BPD is that it is an abandonment issue.  I do really think my mother is BPD because:
1) In November, when I left her house to go elsewhere and came back, something had shifted in her. The mere fact of leaving for a week had triggered something and she seemed distressed, which brought back all those times I was coming back from my father's house. She would be mad, she would tell me I was abandoning her, or that I would abandon her someday. This was a common refrain in our house. And one that my father echoed many times when he talked about their past relationship, how "she had abandonment issues".  That's also when everything started going downhill in November. It heavily triggered her.
2) She was an alcoholic, and while she doesn't drink anymore, she is still considered an alcoholic. She does take other drugs, although she does seem to have her consommation issues under control, and she is a reckless spender, buying second hands things she absolutely doesn't need.
3) She is impulsive, she will move from a town to another in the glimpse of an eye just because she doesn't feel good there anymore. She changed jobs four time (four very different jobs). She doesn't really know what she wants to do.
4) she told me many times she feels empty, to a point where it is physical. She told me last November that having MY children in HER house made her feel whole... which is why she is so intense with them. When I leave with them, it's like I am ripping her off.  
5) She has strong emotional outbursts and violent mood swings.
6) She told me many times she would kill herself and she doesn't go to the dentist or the doctor when she hurts. she endures physical pain and will keep working as if she liked hurting. The doctor once asked her why she didn't come in sooner, her bones were basically cracked from the abuse she had put her body through and she said she didn't feel it... I think she likes the body pain.
7) while she has been with my stepfather for 20 years now, I've seen many different men coming in and out of our household before she met him, and NO friends that remained through the years, so instable relationships.

She exhibits all the traits of the borderline and she does have narcissistic tendancies : but I wouldn't say she doesn't have a good heart. I think she feels remorse as well, even though she has a really hard time admitting it. When I read this specific passage, it's as if he means borderlines cannot show remorse and I think they can, they just don't do it like we do. And they are self destructive and will hurt people around them, but they are not evil.

I'm not sure why I am writing this... I just started questioning if my mother was maybe a fight-fawn, and not a borderline... But writing it all down brought back the truth that she really is borderline, because, mainly, of the abandonment at the hearth of her problems.

There are evil people, but I am not ready to say all borderlines are evil I guess. Even though some might well be... I guess I didn't like the gross generalization. Otherwise, so far, it is an amazing book, with lots of very helpful advices.

Rant over. Thank you.

[Notwendy]

NPD is a spectrum disorder and so is BPD. I also think there's overlap between the two ( and probably all the personality disorders). There's narcissistic tendencies in my mother and her FOO, but most of her FOO are good hearted people, just lean more to the self absorbed side. However, they don't intentionally do hurtful things and they do many acts of kindness for others.

I have read that the most affected range of the narcissistic spectrum has the sociopathic tendencies. I have wondered sometimes if my mother is actually at that end of the spectrum. I know some of her hurtful behavior is due to BPD defenses, but I have also observed that she sometimes seems to enjoy manipulating people. As to hurting people- that seems to be aimed at her most immediate family and some of it is not reactive- but deliberately done. She also lies and seems to enjoy that too. She likes "keeping people in the dark". She's lied so much to me I can't tell what is true and what isn't.

I have not ever seen her show remorse. Shame perhaps, maybe sadness at the situation of our relationship but I think it's a sadness for her. She doesn't seem to have an awareness of how her behavior affects the people closest to her. She can be verbally mean and cruel. She also meets all criteria for BPD. She has BPD but I think it's far in the severe end of that spectrum. She has NPD traits as well. I don't know if "evil heart" is a fit though. She's not evil, but she does lack awareness of other people's needs and feelings and can be verbally cruel.

[Ellala]

The diagnosis and range of behaviors labelled BPD confused me…
I recently broke up with a man who exhibited BPD tendencies, yet I felt he had compassion and showed remorse. Yet he was emotionally dysregulated, acted impulsively, and could be aggressive (always followed by tears/remorse/shame/apologies).

I listened to this talk : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwKl3Z_VlhM
and it brought some clarity to where my ex would be on the spectrum.
Perhaps it will give you clarity too? Richard Grannon's work is informed by Pete Walker. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

NPD is a spectrum disorder and so is BPD. I also think there's overlap between the two ( and probably all the personality disorders). There's narcissistic tendencies in my mother and her FOO, but most of her FOO are good hearted people, just lean more to the self absorbed side. However, they don't intentionally do hurtful things and they do many acts of kindness for others.

I have read that the most affected range of the narcissistic spectrum has the sociopathic tendencies. I have wondered sometimes if my mother is actually at that end of the spectrum. I know some of her hurtful behavior is due to BPD defenses, but I have also observed that she sometimes seems to enjoy manipulating people. As to hurting people- that seems to be aimed at her most immediate family and some of it is not reactive- but deliberately done. She also lies and seems to enjoy that too. She likes "keeping people in the dark". She's lied so much to me I can't tell what is true and what isn't.

I have not ever seen her show remorse. Shame perhaps, maybe sadness at the situation of our relationship but I think it's a sadness for her. She doesn't seem to have an awareness of how her behavior affects the people closest to her. She can be verbally mean and cruel. She also meets all criteria for BPD. She has BPD but I think it's far in the severe end of that spectrum. She has NPD traits as well. I don't know if "evil heart" is a fit though. She's not evil, but she does lack awareness of other people's needs and feelings and can be verbally cruel.

Ha there is lots there to think about for my own uBPDm.  Thank you for your insightful post.

Thinking back on it, what I saw as "remorse" was most likely shame...because she didn't feel sorry. We were talking and I told her:  Don't you remember telling me I must have liked being sexually assaulted? And she covered her face with her hand and said : really ? I cannot believe I said that.
She wasn't ... Sad or ... I don't know... I thought for a moment she was sorry but she didn't say it. She just couldn't believe it, she didn't remember. It wasn't a heavy discussion and I wasn't blaming, just pointing out things she did... I don't think she felt guilt, thinking back on it... Or she would have said sorry right? She was weirdly.. relaxed, actually...

And she does keep me in the dark too and lie to me... I remember many instances where she told me she wouldn't do something and did it in my back. And when I challenged her she said she didn't, even though she clearly had, it was self evident. She blamed my brother but it clearly came from her.

I guess her Waif side is what make me believe she goes through periods of guilt and remorse. But maybe it is indeed just an act to get us back close to her...

She is troubled, that's for sure. I have no idea where she is on the spectrum. I also don't know anymore what is manipulation and what is truth. For a long time I thought she was simple, a bit of a naive idiot... But I think she is actually very awfully smart and she hides behind that naive idiot role to excuse her missteps and things she says to hurt us.

I have also seen her smile after hurting me... Interinstingly though, at one point, I got completely silent. Not a silent treatment but just an observer. And I knew I had power, I could leave with my children and hurt her. And she stopped hurting me, she stopped her silent treatment, she stopped with the dirty looks, and it's like she got into a child like mindset, where she was trying to make amends, she was being all nice. And I just stared at her, and she was shacking... That's why I thought she was remorseful too... But thinking back on it, maybe she just picked up on my vibe, that I felt powerful, that I wasn't scared anymore, I was anxious but my maternal instinct for my own children had kicked in, and so I was angry, and I would eventually fight back and I think she was scared of the outcome... With reason, because I left without saying goodbye and have since stepped out completely of the abuse triangle.

Yeah... She is BPD alright. Goodness they are really good manipulators, aren't they! I feel crazy...

[Riv3rW0lf]

thank you Ellala !

I will certainly watch it tonight and comment back after I do !

This forum has been such a rich source of knowledge and self awareness.

Yesterday the website wasn't working and I felt so anxious for a minute there. Like I had lost the only real safe space I currently have...

Anyway thank you!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I just realized something.

Remembering some things, it seems the only times my uBPDm was able to provide some sort of empathy or love was when the hurtful event included someone to triangulate against.

My father, when I was angry or hurt... She would provide understanding and love/empathy.

My sister in law during a morning brunch, even if how I felt had nothing to do against her, lashed out at me.  I left to go near a lake to gather myself (I know now I was having an emotional flashback). UBPDm came to see me near the lake and was understanding and empathetic, against sis in law. She didn't ask what was wrong, she just assumed, I guess?

But just events like being dumped (by someone she didn't care about), no empathy, it must have been my fault somehow, so get up and do your exams. Or just feeling down, she was acting like I was a bother, calling her about it. She would say well there is nothing I can do, maybe you should have just stayed here!
I was mad against a boyfriend, she once called him to dump  it on him, way out of line... But she was basically triangulating against him...

Have you notice that pattern as well with your BPDm?

[Notwendy]

She may have done that with the golden child of the family but not me. I am her scapegoat child. I don't recall her ever being empathetic or even affectionate with me.

Once, as a teen, I must have eaten something that bothered me. I was at a friend's house and I threw up in the bathroom. He mother must have heard me. She came in to see if I was OK. I recall she got a wet washcloth and held it to my forehead and helped me clean up. This made an impression as this wasn't something BPD mother would do. She'd probably be angry that I messed up her towel or something.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yeah, I think in our case, the middle child and I were/are both scapegoat or golden child depending on various factors, including the current love level with our father. The more we love him, the closest we get to him, the more scapegoat we become, still today. But I was much more ignored and neglected than my brother. I hid in my room all the time. The true golden child was the eldest, who didn't share our father and whom she used as a "boyfriend" when she didn't have anyone. The eldest basically took the middle child as a scapegoat, going as far as to pee on him. And I was the middle child's scapegoat.

I think she is looking to isolate us from each other when she does that. Its not real empathy, in the sense where she doesn't ask what is wrong, she just says things like : I understand you, they don't... But she is often completely off base as to what is going on.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The diagnosis and range of behaviors labelled BPD confused me…
I recently broke up with a man who exhibited BPD tendencies, yet I felt he had compassion and showed remorse. Yet he was emotionally dysregulated, acted impulsively, and could be aggressive (always followed by tears/remorse/shame/apologies).

I listened to this talk : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwKl3Z_VlhM
and it brought some clarity to where my ex would be on the spectrum.
Perhaps it will give you clarity too? Richard Grannon's work is informed by Pete Walker.  

Ellala, thank you so much for sharing this video. I can get behind that 100%. I could have been diagnosed as BPD too in my early twenties, and it really was just emotional dysregulation, I am cPTSD from my mother, after all.

She does the bait and switch, and she hurts other, she turns on us and then act like we are the problem... She is on the "nasty" side of the trauma spectrum I guess.. Which makes sense seeing as she is the one behind my own trauma. She is deeply traumatized and sadly, her way of dealing with it was to turn it against the world.

I clarified with myself that she never showed real empathy... What she did that looked like empathy, she was doing for herself to get back at my father or to prove a point, whether we were comfortable or not with her idea of a resolution. Like sleeping with me when I had insomnia after I told her dad didn't care... But I really didn't want her in my bed, and when I said so she got mad and basically forced me to accept... That is not empathy. I don't know what it is, but it's not a loving mother empathy. Empathy is listening to a child's needs and helping them resolve it in a way they are comfortable with without guilt and shame.

This video helps a lot, and makes a lot of sense with what Pete Walker wrote. Now I understand much better what he meant. And I also see that I don't need to label her to know that my trauma is real and that she was not a nice loving mother, even though deep down, she probably loves us.

Thank you again !
 

[Turkish]

My ex exhibited remorse for leaving me, only after her marriage to the guy she left me for imploded (predictably). She even sent me a Christmas card, "I'm sorry that I was too selfish to share in your happiness." All about her.

My mom, actually dBPD, didn't have a narcissistic bone on her body, though she sometimes telegraphed that I didn't do well on life. 

Feelings of abandonment isn't a trait of BPD, because that isn't the root feeling. "My feelings are worthless and don't matter;  therefore, I'm worthless and don't matter, unworthy of being loved."

This is why Validation works, on anyone actually. It's acknowledgement of their feelings without judgment. Severely invalidated children, especially those intrinsically emotionally sensitive (like my Aspie son, and my ex as a child), are more at risk for developing BPD- like behaviors.

It's core shame. Ashamed to be who they are, and unable to change that given no tools, emotionally raw.

[Notwendy]

 Goodness they are really good manipulators, aren't they! I feel crazy...

I understand. My BPD mother is really good at this, far better than I could be- because if there's any empathy- we can't do it. I can't even imagine doing the things she does. It's not that I think I am the "better person" it's just not something I think about. So we are an uneven match and so I sometimes fall for it- and I can see where she has a "gotcha" look on her face and I feel like a fool.

I think Turkish has a good point though. I don't think the motive is "evil"- I think it's a core shame that causes so much distress- they don't see beyond it. I think it's tragic for them because- their behaviors are hurtful to others, and this keeps them from having the connections with their family. I do think on some level my mother wishes she could have a closer relationship with her children but to have that, it takes trust and for me, there can't be trust.

But we don't think that of mothers- we assume mothers are loving to their children. I recall when I realized just how much she was lying to me. I was so shocked. I also wasn't raised like that. We were taught core values and expected to be decent human beings. We learned as kids not to lie, not to steal, the "do unto others" Golden Rule, and all the while she's been lying. Yet she does have core values- she would not commit a crime or physically hurt someone. I think as Turkish said- the lying must come from core shame as a defense, but it ruins any possible trust to be lied to.

[Riv3rW0lf]

That is actually why the video Ellala sent was so eyes opening.

I am starting to see that BPD is a spectrum, and maybe the borderline term, is, indeed, outdated.

If I think back on myself, I exhibited all the BPD symptoms for a while. I was emotionally raw, I drugged myself, I kept myself from eating as a way to hurt me and control my weight, I was a gym addict and I had huge mood swings and meltdown, but I was a freeze type... I would freeze, isolate myself and go through those dissociation periods. I was socially scared, had trouble even going to the grocery story... Reading Pete Walker book: I was a really bad case of cPTSD... But then.. I bought a little cat. And for the first time, I was loved uncontionnally... Then I met my now husband, a very protective man who never hurt me, but instead helped me feel protected and safe in the world... And then children, who relied on me and who I just couldn't hurt. And my BPD symptoms resorbed. And today I see all the road I have travelled.. but I have to recognize : I exhibited all the borderline symptoms, on the freezing side... I was musician, I evaded through music, composing songs of sadness and singing my suicide idealization... I was not mean, I did not want to hurt people, when I did was because I was triggered and in a flashback.. it's all quite clear now. I could be healed and I was. I will never be completely normal, I get that now, but I have a shot at being the loving mother to my kid that I never had, and I am, working as a team with my husband who helps me see when I am triggered and not fine... He gives me a moment to gather myself, and my children don't suffer it.

My mother is borderline but she is in the other end of the spectrum. She doesn't want to be healed, she wants to be the biggest victim in the room, she needs to be the biggest victim in the room. She baits and switch. She has values too, she also brought us on to be honest people, and she respects law. But she is a covert narcissist. She preyed on us to make herself feel better because her core is, exactly like you both said: shame. And she cannot stand it, so she shames others, and render all of us crazy to fill her bottomless pit of narcissist needs. She cannot self regulate her needs for approval, she requires all attention all the time from us, from her grandchildren. She needs to be the best and she will fawn and look nice, but the second we get close, she hits us and makes us doubt us. If we show vulnerability, she will make us feel worst.

And it is relentless. I went back to her house to get help with my children, I got there a healthy mother with a strong sense of self (I am honestly filled with my husband's beliefs, he pushes me to be my best self, but in a loving way, and it helped be tremendously), and I was able to stand up to her the first week, but then... Goodness, she is relentless ! Bait, switch, bait, switch.. doubt, doubt, fawn, fight... And I just ended up confused and lost and not knowing what the hell was happening to me. And so I left. Best thing I could do.

She is drowning and she doesn't want to be safe, she will pull us all down with her if we let her... And so I have to let her drown.

She is not just borderline, that is quite clear now. Borderlines are not necessarily nasty, and if they are, most don't mean to be... She is a covert narcissist. My eyes are wide open since watching this video. It described both me and my mother, at both end of the spectrum... I highly recommend it.

cPTSD really seems like the key to understand the disorder and other disorders. It's so clear when explained like this. My whole life and persona now makes sense, and I can have hope for myself. But I don't feel as bad with the no/low contact now... It just... Helps make peace with it all to understand better.

[Notwendy]

I listened to part of the video- haven't finished yet- and while I do agree that BPD is spectrum and complicated, I don't think the division he makes is a definite one. My BPD mother has aspects of both sides. I agree about the emotional dysregulation- I can see that - but how she expresses it can go to either side.

As to having BPD symptoms, these are referred to as "fleas" sometimes. The speaker talks about PTSD like symptoms. Also our parents are role models and we see their behavior. I think it's inevitable we'd emerge as adults with some of these issues, but I also think one difference is the ability or willingness to look at ourselves and be aware of the impact of our behavior on others and the consequences. I think changing these behaviors is possible- through therapy or some sort of self work-if we are motivated to do that. For my mother, her denial and projection are an obstacle to this. If she's unhappy- she sees this as someone else causing it. She doesn't seem to connect the consequences to her own behavior. Instead, she dysregulates- and so can not learn from them or self work.

I think there's also a spectrum of emotional dysregulation. Some people are more functional than others. In my mother's situation, it is disabling. She can barely manage simple tasks around the house. She can pull it together sometimes for social situations but most of the time, I would see her agree to do something and then refuse to go at the last minute. She's leaned towards self harm at times- one side that the speaker describes and also she has a strong narcissistic streak- entitlement, and can be cruel. I don't think narcissism has the extent of emotional dysregulation that she has though.

[Goldcrest]

For me remorse is self awareness. You do something that hurts someone, you can have empathy for how it impacted them, you then work your arse off to change the behaviour. If you fail you keep trying, and you keep explaining openly to the person you have hurt that you are aware of how you are hurting them and you are working to change.

My mother simply CANNOT fathom that other people have feelings. I have tried in vain to give her examples of when she is hurting, the pain, and then to consider that another person might feel similar (after she has hurt them). Blank face. For my mother she is the only one entitled to feelings, the rest of us are simply chess pieces. Like Notwendy said, my mum knows what she does and enjoys it, sometimes she will joke that she is going to hell for her lies. She sees it as comedy. And boy we did laugh sometimes as kids at some of the scrapes she would lie her way out of...until it was you being lied to or humiliated.

Notwendy

As to having BPD symptoms, these are referred to as "fleas" sometimes. The speaker talks about PTSD like symptoms. Also our parents are role models and we see their behavior. I think it's inevitable we'd emerge as adults with some of these issues, but I also think one difference is the ability or willingness to look at ourselves and be aware of the impact of our behavior on others and the consequences. I think changing these behaviors is possible- through therapy or some sort of self work-if we are motivated to do that. For my mother, her denial and projection are an obstacle to this. If she's unhappy- she sees this as someone else causing it. She doesn't seem to connect the consequences to her own behavior. Instead, she dysregulates- and so can not learn from them or self work.

I know that I have had borderline traits in the past. It was very hard for me to admit this to myself but certainly in my early 20s I was up the wall with distress which manifested in some very challenging behaviour. I then spent 7 years in therapy, twice weekly to work out what was happening with me. I'm not perfect, I still act in ways that make me ashamed but I am curious as to what lead me to it and to work for change. My mother will always find someone to tell her she is amazing and she can literally bounce off the phone, high as a kite, once one of her flying monkeys have told her how wonderful she is.

[Riv3rW0lf]

My mother simply CANNOT fathom that other people have feelings. I have tried in vain to give her examples of when she is hurting, the pain, and then to consider that another person might feel similar (after she has hurt them). Blank face. For my mother she is the only one entitled to feelings, the rest of us are simply chess pieces. Like Notwendy said, my mum knows what she does and enjoys it, sometimes she will joke that she is going to hell for her lies. She sees it as comedy. And boy we did laugh sometimes as kids at some of the scrapes she would lie her way out of...until it was you being lied to or humiliated.

Ho yes, I know exactly what blank face you are talking about. Which is why I think my mother actually has a covert narcissistic personnality disorder, as well as being emotionally disregulated from trauma.

As for the borderline traits... From what I gathered from the video is: every traumatized children that are emotionally disregulated and have been severely abandoned as children will develop BPD traits and are at risk of being diagnosed as borderline, when it is actually just emotional dysregulation, that can be healed via DBT and mindfulness.

Low sense of self, feeling empty, drug and alcool usage, mood swings, anger and sudden violence can be directed inward... But like Notwendy and you said : our empathy, our low sense of entitlement, kept us from staying like this, it made us questioned ourselves, made us want to be better. We felt the shame AND the other person hurt, and we didn't want to hurt them.

While our mothers just don't seem to care that they are hurting others because their own pain is all that matter to them.. they are the biggest victim in the room and we are there as tools to make them feel better about themselves.

Yesterday, as I had my emotional flashback... I lost contact with reality. I litterally thought my husband was in fact abusive, that he would turn on me and talk behind my back to his parents because he was tired of my deficiencies. Because I am a mess and because I didn't agree with him, clearly he would abandon me. And while I was having those thoughts, he had to leave to get something at his mother's house and that was it. I couldn't stop crying, my three years old was looking at me and I just ... It was awful.  I was a bad mother for crying, I was a bad wife... Just lost it. I wasn't doing any verbal blaming, this was all inside.

He came back and he was appalled. What was happening to me. I retreated to my room and finally understood that I had completely lost control of my inner critic who was terrorizing me into reliving my abandonment. I wasn't in the present anymore. And what made me realize this is my husband telling me something along the lines of " I've always been on your side you know that, when have I ever been against you? Its you and me against the world, we are a team. But we need to let my parents in sometimes, this is life. What we were living for the past 6 years, closed on ourselves, THIS is what was wrong. Life is being able to deal healthily with family members that are not abusive."

He. Was. Right. I just moved back to my home province and I suddenly have to see family on a weekly basis and my freeze type has been in panic attack mode for the last two weeks. I am not well, I keep falling back into flashbacks after flashbacks. This last one hit a peak I haven't reached in a very long time and made me realize this all had nothing to do with him and his family. If I hadn't realized it was a flashback, I would have kept alienating him because of my own trauma, exactly like a "borderline" does.

This was losing contact with reality and projecting my abandonment trauma on him. Except it wasn't borderline.. it was a flashback. A simple flashback. And once I understood, it went away.. and once again, I could see my husband for what he is : a loving husband and father, who is sometimes tired and can seem mad, but who loves me and does not see me as defective. At. All.

This is why this video made so much sense to me. When I flashback, I exhibit borderline traits, and my life has been a constant flashback it seems sometimes ... Except my anger, my shame, my fear are all directed INWARD.

My daughter was sad to see me like this, but she wasn't traumatized because I didn't scream at her, I tried to tell her, instead: it's ok, we are fine, you are fine, I love you. Can you go play and I will gather myself. It wasn't perfect but at least I wasn't screaming at her that she was the reason I was like this, like my own mother did to me every time she got into a flashback...

Because let's face it, the criterias themselves of borderlines does not mean they will be good manipulators... Covert narcissism though... Does explain a lot.

But in the end, I am writing that not to convince you, but to clarify my own mind. I think we must all find the truth that permits us to heal and move forward. For me, seeing it like this helps, because it decreases my tendency to perceive myself as deficient. It shows me I adopted my inner critic as a personnality and I have been literally living in fear... I had a CT scan recently for other issues and my brain was shrinked more than average because of all the stress. I have lived in fear and in flashbacks for so long, I don't even think I know how to relax my body.. But I will learn slowly... My "borderlines" traits have resorbed a lot since my early twenties, I can contain myself better, hide it better... Being good at my job helped me developped an identity, and it helped tremendously.. but the inner critic, the flashbacks, are still there. Directed inward. But there.

[Notwendy]

Me too but how could we not?

Unlike having several unstable relationships, I went to the opposite- keeping an emotional distance.  In college,  I was terrified of dating. I think I was afraid to have that much emotion with anyone. Then if I did meet someone I could feel a connection to, I was afraid to let go and hung on too much. But I don't think it's fair to us to think of our behaviors as shameful. The lack of any approval or affection at home made me vulnerable to anyone who did pay attention to me, most of them I was afraid to be too close to. This wasn't just with dating relationships but with anyone, and so I didn't feel as if I had any close friends. I felt like an outsider. People around me seemed to be having fun, connecting with each other and I felt like an observer.

I was  lonely. Somehow though, I knew to get to student counseling on campus. BPD was not as well known. I knew something was going on with my mother, but didn't have a name for it. I don't recall that the counseling gave me much insight, but it was a supportive person, and that was a good thing.

Why did we not deny or project like someone with BPD? Because we don't have BPD. I could tell that my feelings were mine. I didn't blame others for them. I wanted to look at why I felt that way.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I understand, I was the same, an observer to everyone else's connection and happiness. An outsider to my own relationships, when I had them. I also did a lot of self sabotage in friendship and relationship alike. I was hard to live with, I am such a perfectionniste and when my inner critic is directed outward, it makes it unlivable for anyone. I learned to tame it now and keep my comments to myself.. it helped to be with a really strong minded husband : he doesn't take any s***. :'D

I also understand what you mean, I actually think we are saying the same thing, in a sense. Basically, I see myself, right now, as someone with cPTSD and I see my mother as a covert narcissist OR someone with BPD on the narcissist end of the spectrum.

But I could have been misdiagnosed with BPD is what I mean, because it is such a large diagnosis. I think some people with BPD can really have a good heart.. isn't there something called silent BPD as well? And while I wasn't blaming him for my emotion, I was blaming the monster my outer critic had created: his parents who I didn't trust. Even if they aren't abusive, everyone was abusive to me during this flashback and so.. I was kind of projecting my emotions on him, I wanted him to save me from them instead of owning my fear, which was overwhelming. It only diminished when I realized: THIS is a flashback. And I stopped using him as an excuse to my pain.

In the end they are just words to help us understand who we are, and how to heal.

And I agree...I didn't shame myself yesterday after realizing what happened. For the first time, I gave myself only love and compassion, and my husband echoed that love and it was so healing... I will get better at managing those with time, it gives me hope.

We shouldn't shame ourselves. We are good hearted people.

[Notwendy]

I think it helps to keep in mind that a lot of behaviors are present in many disorders which is why the actual diagnosis needs a trained professional. Someone who has trouble paying attention might have ADD, or depression, or anxiety and so on. So "not paying attention" on its own isn't definitive.

The personality disorders are said to be fixed. They may be more obvious at times but the patterns are seen over time. They may improve with therapy for some people. I think there's also overlap with PTSD behaviors and trauma may be connected to causing or making BPD worse- but why some people have BPD and some don't may just be how they are wired.

I don't have proof or any idea who could have done it, but I think my BPD mother may have been abused. I don't think it was her immediate family as there's nobody else who has this behavior on her side that I know of. It may have been a neighbor or family friend? I don't know but she behaves as if she was.

I don't think I could have been "diagnosed" as BPD but I think that some would have thought I had ADD, but I don't have ADD. I daydreamed a lot as a kid in school but also at home. I understand now that this was an emotional defense- to tune out some of what was going on at home but it appeared to teachers that I just wasn't doing my work.

[ILMBPDC]

I am starting to see that BPD is a spectrum, and maybe the borderline term, is, indeed, outdated.

I was on the CPTSD subreddit the other day and was reading an answer to someone's question about the difference between CPTSD and BPD and a PhD student answered this:

CPTSD and BPD are pretty much next to each other on the spectrum of complex trauma responses, which goes something along the lines of single incident PTSD, CPTSD, BPD, OSDD, DID. This is part of the theory of structural dissociation, which would propose that each of these conditions involves different extents of dissociation between aspects of yourself

Which I found extremely interesting. It makes sense though, since they are all related to trauma.
Also there is a push to get BPD relabeled as EUPD (emotionally unstable PD) because of the stigma of BPD - though tbh I'm not sure EUPD sounds much better.

If I think back on myself, I exhibited all the BPD symptoms for a while.

There were times I wondered if I was BPD as well, especially when I was younger - but I don't think I ever exhibited 5+ of the 9 traits (though I definitely had a lot of the same coping mechanisms) When I was diagnosed with PTSD and started reading about CPTSD, it all made so much sense. My daughter is diagnosed BPD but I am really wondering if she was misdiagnosed, though I guess at the time she did exhibit things like self harm and impulsivity, so maybe the diagnosis was correct then (7 years ago when she was a teen), but has "downgraded" to CPTSD now. If that's even a thing.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I agree that a trained specialist is the only one able to actually confirm a diagnosis. In the mean time, my mother just won't see one. She saw one psychologist recently, one time and never went back that I am aware. She much prefers playing the victim to untrained people... She feeds off the attention it gives her, and when the moment comes to take responsibility, and actually start fixing things, she won't.

Last time, she took two of my aunts as her persecutors, while my grandmother was living at her house. One of them was worried for my grandmother because my mother seemed unstable (she lashed out at one of my aunts via Skype, which basically showed her true colors). My mother ended up sending grandma to another sister and she pulled my brother and I as saviors. I talked for HOURS on end with her about what was going on, contacted my aunt to explain she was sick, she was depressed, wasn't doing well, that she needed validation and to be recognized and that she needed time before she could talk with her. My aunt was very comprehensive, she said ok no problem, I will wait for her to be ready... And I got pushed out of the circle by my mother... It ended with my brother screaming at my aunt and throwing grandmother out of my mother's house: she was never able to return and her things were shipped to her. My mother chose the biggest possible drama as a final solution to her problem, instead of peaceful, healthy communication. And honestly, I don't know my grandmother, but I don't think "talking while playing cards"  and "not saying thank you for every meal" deserved that kind of reaction.

If she won't get help from a professional, how can I know what she is? Because what she is would in the end impact if I go NO or LOW contact.

Right now, she really seems borderline, I know she was abused, but she is very entitled, and have strong narcissistic tendencies... Can a narcissist borderline heal? Are they willing to try and heal if requested? I don't think so anymore... She might not be evil, but she sure as hell break everyone that get close to her... Where do my responsibility to help her stop? She is a very good manipulator, and she loves being the biggest victim in the room. At the same time, she has to be the prettiest, nicest, best cook and all the rest... So much attention is required. She is exhausting even on her good days with her constant subles attacks to other's self esteem

Thank you ILMBPDC, it confirms, at the very least, the proximity of both states. So... I am assuming the borderline would be the most dissociated state...  But then, they are so dissociated and if they really cannot see the other people emotions, strengths and weaknesses : how are they such good manipulators ? Because that is another question that we can raise... Are they really unaware of the pain they are causing? Or do they somehow enjoy pushing others down to feel better about themselves, because this is the covert narcissist's behaviors as well... Or are just the entitled borderlines acting like this ?

I guess I should maybe stop looking for answers about her, and more time looking for answers about me...