View on flaws in other people

[15years]

My wife says nobody's perfect, but I'm not sure that means the same to her as it does to me. I have never gotten a good grip on this. I often agree with her about the flaws she points out in people but she seems to hate those flaws passionately whereas I'm more curious or find them mildly irritating after a while.

Are we on the different sides of a spectrum here?

She has had friends over the years but she pretty much despise all of them while still also seeing the good in them. The problem for her is that the flaws people have makes her feel contempt. She is often polite to people and a people pleaser when she's not pissed, but inside her a feeling of disgust is growing and it ends with her starting to push people away.

Now she seems to be without friends completely but to her it's only a process in which she has cleansed herself of negative people in her life. She told me she makes the best of social interactions but inside her heart is crying from the low level of conversation and intellect.

Should she really lower her expectations?
People around her have reacted negatively to criticism, is that really her problem?
Is she not allowed to expect better from people?


Have anyone noticed - trying to please a demanding person, after a while you notice huge flaws in people all the time and wonder how they can be so dumb.

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[15years]

I haven't allowed myself to have flaws if she points them out. If I can change, why wouldn't I?

I think I'm changing my view on that now though!

[Cat Familiar]

It’s typical BPD/NPD behavior. They idolize people at first, then disparage them. There is a high level of narcissistic thinking here. She is expecting people to behave better than the behavior she expects of herself.

Why are you getting involved with her dysfunctional thinking?

[15years]

I guess you're right about it being narcissistic but I still don't get it. I don't think she idolize anyone, she just overlooks flaws more in the beginning but she's always aware of them.

[Cat Familiar]

Maybe she’s more NPD than BPD.

Still, why are you getting involved in her dysfunction about people?

[15years]

I've been getting involved in the past because it takes the attention away from me and our relationship problems. So it feels safe to talk about others. Especially if it's about celebrities, not a lot of risk there. Also I've wanted to agree with her out of convenience so I've tried to understand her point of view and it has worked quite well up til recent years.

If you ask her, she'd say I've always wanted to not agree to her out of principle, I guess that comes from the occasions I haven't been able to convince her that I agree (because I didn't agree).

It's not only about people though, she dislikes some specific animal species and countries the same way too.

[15years]

NPD, I don't know, I've always seen her as highly empathetic but I'm not so sure anymore.

[Notwendy]

I've been getting involved in the past because it takes the attention away from me and our relationship problems. So it feels safe to talk about others

This is classic triangle dynamics. The two of you are bonded together, looking outward at a common "lesser person" rather than actually looking at your own issues and also inability to bond in other ways. Your relationship is more stable as this triangle than just the two of you.

Have anyone noticed - trying to please a demanding person, after a while you notice huge flaws in people all the time and wonder how they can be so dumb.
   
Yes, it's called enmeshment. Over time, trying to please someone, a person loses their own sense of self, because of trying to please the other person. So you take on the persona they want you do be, including their thoughts and opinions. If your wife has NPD traits, and you become enmeshed, it's not just her. It's you too because you have become the same person. Feels stable like this.

Looking at flaws in other people ensures you don't see any flaws in yourself or think critically about your own decisions.

I observed this with my parents. BPD mother also has NPD traits. She tends to cultivate people around her that she assumes are less educated than she is, and then talks about how unintelligent they are. It's also included her own children, even though we have more advanced degrees than she does. If we make even a minor mistake- she mocks us and calls us stupid. As a result, we limit our contact with her because it's difficult to be around someone like this.

You know this is classic too. Put other people down so to make yourself feel better. Look at their flaws, not your own. If someone has a poor sense of self, it's a way to feel better. One thing that is obvious from the outside is that every one of these "stupid" people are probably a lot happier than my BPD mother.

What was surprising is that eventually my father did the same thing. This wasn't like him in his younger years. He used to be more congenial and seemed to like everybody. He also seemed to love his own kids. When this began to change, I thought it was due to aging and possibly illness. However it happened before that- he and my mother were enmeshed and shared the same viewpoint of others. My BPD mother was abusive to him and eventually, he too became critical and verbally abusive. Now that he's deceased, when I hear my mother speak about other people, she says the same things. They sound like the same person. They were the same person- as he had lost a sense of who he was in trying to please her.

One of the harder parts of working on my own co-dependent tendencies was having people turn the mirror on me- looking at my own behavior. Finding fault in others was useless in terms of making changes for the better and also a way of avoiding seeing our own behaviors that keep us stuck. As long as you and your wife are joined together finding flaws in others, you will also remain in this same familiar and comfortable pattern.

How can others be so dumb?

Do you really want to go down this path with your wife? I loved my father but listening to my parents constantly find fault with others created distance from everyone around them. It's hard to be around people like this, even if you care about them.

[15years]

Maybe it is triangulation, but I've seen it more as us talking about different types of behaviors just between the two of us. What is the difference between triangulation and just spouses talking to each other about events? And also the difference between triangulation and taking your partners side. That is considered normal isn't it?

Examples of the top of my head:
1. We have been visiting our friends who seldom cleans their bathroom before having guests. After a visit we discuss this and that it's quite immature to not clean up before having guests.
2. Our children visit my parents regularly and without agreement they often have been taking baths. My wife message my mom and politely tells her that she does not want the children to have baths at their place without discussing it first.
3. As a birthday card my big brother gave me a picture of a female butt bought on a vacation. It's intended as a joke of course (this was ten years ago and I'm not sure it would fly as a joke these days). It wasn't funny and I didn't appreciate it. My wife sure didn't appreciate it either so of course I took her side on this matter. I don't remember if we talked to my brother about this specific thing but at least later we have talked about (lectured?) feminism with him.
4. She tells her brother something to which he barely responds before switching the conversation to something else. She complains to me about this later and I agree that her brother should listen better.

My point being that people in general shows some questionable behaviors. I often do understand her point of view after a short discussion, why should I not agree? Often we discuss things and come to conclusions together.


I don't plan on letting my kids down by taking her side, but that's also a tricky thing, parents should agree on their parenting. By not taking her side I'm risking being "one of the kids".

[Notwendy]

I think the line between simply discussing something you both didn't like and triangulation may not be entirely clear unless we examine our own motives and feelings about this.

I have done a lot of 12 step recovery work. A main goal is that- if someone wants to change their own behavior, their own part in dysfunctional dynamics, the focus need to be on them. When a focus is outward "taking someone else's inventory"- this isn't effective because we can not change someone else. If we can only change ourselves, then we need to shift the focus.

So it actually depends on the extent of and reason that the two of you discuss others and also if this is a way to agree on something without looking at the issues between you. in which point it becomes dysfunctional- as it becomes a triangulation.

I examined my parents' decades long relationship- not for the motive of discussing their flaws, or judging, but to understand the family patterns that influence my own behaviors. Needless to say, their relationship was a high conflict one which included verbal and emotional abuse from BPD mom. It was obvious that my father wasn't happy- yet he tolerated and enabled her behavior and in ways, they were quite bonded and one noticeable one was when they were both aligned being critical of someone else rather than each other. And often the bickering and snide remarks between them were hard to listen to.

Behaviors that work tend to increase and over time, my mother's tendency to be critical of other began to shape my father's views. Eventually they found fault in just about everyone. One might be painted white for a while and not for long. This included family members and their own children. The result is that they became further isolated - just the two of them, each reinforcing the other one's critical view. If you find that everyone in your circle is not up to your standards and you find something wrong with all of them, then eventually there's nobody you want to associate with.

And if you find fault with everything, you end up being unhappy. And when you don't look at your own interactions and behaviors, others don't want to be around you. In addition, if the pwBPD is initiating these remarks, it's a form of isolating you from family and friends as you begin to think critically of them. It's triangulating you.

One example is that my BPD mother does this subtly. It's not a big insult- that would be too obvious. Just little ones that make you doubt. She doesn't like my father's family. I am close to his family members. So my BPD mother will insert a subtle snide remark about them in conversations. Enough to make me think something negative about them. But I know to dismiss them as they could harm my regard for them.

Doing this kind of thing changes your perception. So your brother sent you a butt card. So yes, I am a female and in general don't appreciate these things but also, put this in context. It was 10 years ago and sibling to sibling. Siblings often do silly and ridiculous things with each other. Is this the sum of your relationship? Did this separate you from him? Is it worth it? My guess is that even if he was off the mark with this card, the relationship is worth more than that. I would have laughed for a moment and then thrown it away.

Not cleaning the bathroom is kinda gross. Do you like these friends? If you enjoy visiting them, then bring some wipes in your pocket and let this go. One stress of having people over is having to clean the house. If they are really busy they might not ever have people over, but decided hey- these are close friends, we will have them over anyway.

She tells her brother something and he should have listened better. Red flag here. She's dysfunctional, has a history of being abusive and has certain ideas about men. Maybe he's hesitant to respond to her. Maybe he is walking on eggshells with her.

Yes, sometimes it is normal to discuss some things you don't agree on. But be careful as it can be a slippery slope

[Notwendy]

Out of all of these comments, the one that stands out to me is that your parents are bathing the kids without discussing this with your wife first.

It's fortunate that your parents are able to see their grandkids.  There are several posts on the family board from heartbroken grandparents whose BPD DIL's have banned them from seeing their grandkids over some minor slight they may have done unintentionally. Now if your wife requested your parents do something very unreasonable, then perhaps I can see them questioning that, but it's not a big deal if the kids don't get a bath.

They may wonder why that is the issue here and that it makes no sense to not bathe a child who gets dirty playing. There's nothing wrong with them giving their grandchildren a bath in the general sense. The problem is that your wife asked them to discuss this with her first. They may not have a clue of the potential consequences of your wife possibly deciding to paint them black due to this. I don't suggest they enable any abuse on her part, but in general, if a parent has wishes about their child- like what they eat, or a bath, or how much screen time, grandparents should respect this boundary.

I would suggest you have a private talk with them and without being critical of your wife, ask them to please ask your wife first before giving the kids a bath.

[NonnyMouse]

I've been getting involved in the past because it takes the attention away from me and our relationship problems. So it feels safe to talk about others. Especially if it's about celebrities, not a lot of risk there. Also I've wanted to agree with her out of convenience so I've tried to understand her point of view and it has worked quite well up til recent years.

This is me and my uBPDw! Usually she starts off attacking me. If I can control myself she will then start on about her family and friends. At that point I give an internal sigh of relief!

And celebs! Last night it was Will Smith and Chris Rock! I disagreed with her point of view, but I didn't push my position. Looking at Twitter it seemed that the vast majority of people agreed with me. So I showed her Twitter and she changed her position to be a bit more neutral. Again. that's typical. a) What I say doesn't count, only what others say and B) her opinion is pretty much that of the last person she spoke to!

[15years]

If I can control myself she will then start on about her family and friends. At that point I give an internal sigh of relief!

Either this happens or she starts accusing me of acting weird by not replying like a normal person. That internal sigh of relief is starting to feel a bit shameful i have to confess. I don't know if I should argue or just nod. I used to engage in the discussion because she has some valid points.

And celebs! Last night it was Will Smith and Chris Rock! I disagreed with her point of view, but I didn't push my position. Looking at Twitter it seemed that the vast majority of people agreed with me.

I'm curious, what was your opinion and what was her? I haven't discussed this with my wife, I didn't hear about it til today.

[Cat Familiar]

Sadly, this is probably one of the few forms of intimacy you feel with her. It’s illusory, since you’re both criticizing others and feeling on the same page and it simulates a closeness that your relationship doesn’t have.