What about the children?

[who_knows11]

If this is in the wrong thread I apologize and can move it wherever it needs to go.  I've started looking into the effects my wife's uBPD can have on our children.  This is becoming my biggest concern now.  I'm just curious what other people with children and a BPD spouse have seen or dealt with.  I've started reading some material and am concerned that I may already be seeing signs of the effects on at least my oldest.  I have 2 boys ages 4 and 1.  I would just like to know what types of things to be looking for  in this regard.  I have never thought about filing for divorce and the only way I've ever thought it might happen is if she is the one to do it.  However, the only way I would consider leaving would be if it was for the sake of my children

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

This is a fine place to post about your concerns about the effects of your wife’s BPD on your children.

In addition, you might want to look at the Parent, Sibling, InLaw Board and read accounts of  adults still struggling with the damage they experienced from having a BPD parent.

Having grown up with a BPD mother, I can say that the emotional inconsistency and quickness to anger was very hard to process as a child. I knew she loved me, but I also knew there was something *wrong* with her.

How it affected me was that I became the “identified patient” of the family. My behavior was scrutinized for flaws. It was a very uncomfortable way to grow up. I watched TV shows of families to try and understand what a *normal* family was like.

And as a young adult, I began doing therapy to try to discover how my upbringing had led me into dysfunctional relationships in addition to self-sabotaging my own hopes and dreams.

Seeing other people’s mothers, I knew mine was different. It was hard to feel relaxed around her.

[thankful person]

Hi who knows,
My children were and are my biggest concern here. However I used to feel totally helpless about them growing up in such a way. It was my mother getting upset about not getting photos of the children (it was against my wife’s “rules”) that was the catalyst to trigger a change, and then I found the forum.

I have spent the past year working on improving my own self esteem, and doing things I want to do, learning from the forum and in books. I have been working on communicating better with my wife - not arguing with her, and validating her emotions, without necessarily agreeing. Have you read, “raising resilient children with a borderline or narcissist”? I highly recommend it.

The result is that my wife is much calmer and more reasonable with her demands on me. So it is a much nicer atmosphere here now than I’ve ever known. My wife told me many times that I am “forbidden” from teaching our children to play the piano. I was also not “allowed” to play the piano for pleasure. Yesterday I sat and played the piano with our two year old on my lap and as a family we all sang together. Not exactly a piano lesson, but a great start.

But our children are only 2.5 and nearly 1, so they are at a very fragile stage of learning to handle their emotions like disappointment and anger, as well as feelings of tiredness, hunger etc. I am trying so hard to help them with this.

My wife still screeches sometimes. It is not usually because I made things worse these days I am proud to say. I will use a couple of examples from today, which was worse than usual for some reason. We were taking the baby to physio. I had never been before as my wife does all the appointments as she breast feeds her before and during. So me and the older child came along for the ride. We approached the centre using sat nav and my wife panicked as she hadn’t approached from this direction before (she was driving). I directed her back round the block and then we approached from the same direction again (I misunderstood that she didn’t want this). So she starts ranting and shouting and I said very little and she got over it. So then I took the older child for a walk around the block while they had the appointment. My wife had said appointments are usually an hour but they’ll be done probably in half an hour. So I kept an eye on my watch to aim to be back in half an hour. My wife started ranting and shouting when we got back and found them waiting outside the car (she had the keys). She had rang me 18 times in the past ten minutes but my phone was on silent and I didn’t think to check it. Oops.

My attitude has changed. I don’t mind that I directed her the wrong way, or that my phone was off. I used to almost relish an excuse to direct some anger at myself over such things. But in fact the fact that I’m less anxious about pleasing her was probably why I allowed myself to make this very human error. I have accepted that I will never please her 100% of the time but I am doing my best, within reason. I hope the children will learn then that my mistake was ok, and that their mother will always find something to shout about if she wants to. She also slams doors sometimes and wants them and the dog outside the room while she gets comfortable. They are not old enough for me to explain such things yet, but I try to keep the atmosphere light and have a dance with them in the kitchen.

I wish you all the best with your children. It has been a huge responsibility for me to take on being the “emotionally stable” parent role, despite my former identity as a broken person who was depressed, anxious, and full of anger at the world. I somehow used to believe my wife’s belief that she is more important than me in being the birth mother and breast feeding them. I now realise how much they need me. I take some comfort in knowing how much worse things would have been, had I not made these changes.

[who_knows11]

This is a fine place to post about your concerns about the effects of your wife’s BPD on your children.

In addition, you might want to look at the Parent, Sibling, InLaw Board and read accounts of  adults still struggling with the damage they experienced from having a BPD parent.

Having grown up with a BPD mother, I can say that the emotional inconsistency and quickness to anger was very hard to process as a child. I knew she loved me, but I also knew there was something *wrong* with her.

How it affected me was that I became the “identified patient” of the family. My behavior was scrutinized for flaws. It was a very uncomfortable way to grow up. I watched TV shows of families to try and understand what a *normal* family was like.

And as a young adult, I began doing therapy to try to discover how my upbringing had led me into dysfunctional relationships in addition to self-sabotaging my own hopes and dreams.

Seeing other people’s mothers, I knew mine was different. It was hard to feel relaxed around her.

Are there things I can be looking for to know when they may be starting to struggle with these inconsistencies?  I can certainly see how the things you mentioned would arise as issues out of dealing with a scenario like this.  Maybe it isn't possible to stop the struggles the children may have, but I at least want to be able to recognize when things begin so I can make sure and help them work through the issues as early as possible.

We recently just took a trip, just the two of us (my wife and I).  She hoped it would be helpful for us.  This was where we were at when the violent episode happened that I spoke about in another post.  We found out that while we were gone our oldest (4 years) made the statement that his mommy was mad at him and didn't love him because she left him.  Strangely it was only directed at her and not the both of us.  At first it seemed like a case where he just wasn't old enough to understand the situation, but the more I have looked into the affects on children the more that statement alarms me

[who_knows11]

Hi who knows,
My children were and are my biggest concern here. However I used to feel totally helpless about them growing up in such a way. It was my mother getting upset about not getting photos of the children (it was against my wife’s “rules”) that was the catalyst to trigger a change, and then I found the forum.

I have spent the past year working on improving my own self esteem, and doing things I want to do, learning from the forum and in books. I have been working on communicating better with my wife - not arguing with her, and validating her emotions, without necessarily agreeing. Have you read, “raising resilient children with a borderline or narcissist”? I highly recommend it.

The result is that my wife is much calmer and more reasonable with her demands on me. So it is a much nicer atmosphere here now than I’ve ever known. My wife told me many times that I am “forbidden” from teaching our children to play the piano. I was also not “allowed” to play the piano for pleasure. Yesterday I sat and played the piano with our two year old on my lap and as a family we all sang together. Not exactly a piano lesson, but a great start.

But our children are only 2.5 and nearly 1, so they are at a very fragile stage of learning to handle their emotions like disappointment and anger, as well as feelings of tiredness, hunger etc. I am trying so hard to help them with this.

My wife still screeches sometimes. It is not usually because I made things worse these days I am proud to say. I will use a couple of examples from today, which was worse than usual for some reason. We were taking the baby to physio. I had never been before as my wife does all the appointments as she breast feeds her before and during. So me and the older child came along for the ride. We approached the centre using sat nav and my wife panicked as she hadn’t approached from this direction before (she was driving). I directed her back round the block and then we approached from the same direction again (I misunderstood that she didn’t want this). So she starts ranting and shouting and I said very little and she got over it. So then I took the older child for a walk around the block while they had the appointment. My wife had said appointments are usually an hour but they’ll be done probably in half an hour. So I kept an eye on my watch to aim to be back in half an hour. My wife started ranting and shouting when we got back and found them waiting outside the car (she had the keys). She had rang me 18 times in the past ten minutes but my phone was on silent and I didn’t think to check it. Oops.

My attitude has changed. I don’t mind that I directed her the wrong way, or that my phone was off. I used to almost relish an excuse to direct some anger at myself over such things. But in fact the fact that I’m less anxious about pleasing her was probably why I allowed myself to make this very human error. I have accepted that I will never please her 100% of the time but I am doing my best, within reason. I hope the children will learn then that my mistake was ok, and that their mother will always find something to shout about if she wants to. She also slams doors sometimes and wants them and the dog outside the room while she gets comfortable. They are not old enough for me to explain such things yet, but I try to keep the atmosphere light and have a dance with them in the kitchen.

I wish you all the best with your children. It has been a huge responsibility for me to take on being the “emotionally stable” parent role, despite my former identity as a broken person who was depressed, anxious, and full of anger at the world. I somehow used to believe my wife’s belief that she is more important than me in being the birth mother and breast feeding them. I now realise how much they need me. I take some comfort in knowing how much worse things would have been, had I not made these changes.

Fortunately I do not have any issues with my own self esteem.  I am very secure with who I am individually.  Naturally that bothers her as well.  I have not read that book I will have to look into that. 

I'm very prepared to be the stable one dealing with the children I just want to make sure I know what to look for.  As I just replied to Cat, our oldest said his mommy was mad at him and didn't love him because she left him in reference to her and I being gone on a trip that was just the two of us.

As far as reacting to my wife's outbursts I've almost quit reacting at all.  For one I have lost all respect for her and I'm sure that hurts what I am willing to do in response to one of her episodes.  I know it isn't about me so it doesn't upset me.  I've basically just decided to stop dealing with it

[thankful person]

Fortunately I do not have any issues with my own self esteem.  I am very secure with who I am individually.  Naturally that bothers her as well.  I have not read that book I will have to look into that. 

I'm very prepared to be the stable one dealing with the children I just want to make sure I know what to look for.  As I just replied to Cat, our oldest said his mommy was mad at him and didn't love him because she left him in reference to her and I being gone on a trip that was just the two of us.

I’m so glad you are feeling strong and stable and confident to be the emotional leader in the relationship. I do believe this is one of the greatest things you can do for your children, in this situation.
I wouldn’t read too much into what your boy said at this stage, although you are right to be concerned and keep a close eye on them both. You may need to give them extra support or in the future they may need professional help if things got really bad. You want to watch out for them displaying particular insecure, paranoid, anxious behaviour, troubled children tend to either become withdrawn or act out in response. I have worked with pre-schoolers for many years. I always wanted to help the ones who were struggling at home. To have even one stable parent is an absolute blessing.
I wondered who your son spoke to when he disclosed these fears? Could the person have been fishing to get some information about your son’s relationship with his mother? Just a thought. But in itself I don’t find his concerns that unusual. Is your wife the main caregiver? This could explain his worries, although he undoubtedly will be confused about your wife’s bpd behaviour and treatment of him, which would also be why he felt she had gone away because of him, but didn’t mention you.

[who_knows11]

I’m so glad you are feeling strong and stable and confident to be the emotional leader in the relationship. I do believe this is one of the greatest things you can do for your children, in this situation.
I wouldn’t read too much into what your boy said at this stage, although you are right to be concerned and keep a close eye on them both. You may need to give them extra support or in the future they may need professional help if things got really bad. You want to watch out for them displaying particular insecure, paranoid, anxious behaviour, troubled children tend to either become withdrawn or act out in response. I have worked with pre-schoolers for many years. I always wanted to help the ones who were struggling at home. To have even one stable parent is an absolute blessing.
I wondered who your son spoke to when he disclosed these fears? Could the person have been fishing to get some information about your son’s relationship with his mother? Just a thought. But in itself I don’t find his concerns that unusual. Is your wife the main caregiver? This could explain his worries, although he undoubtedly will be confused about your wife’s bpd behaviour and treatment of him, which would also be why he felt she had gone away because of him, but didn’t mention you.

He was telling it to a babysitter he was with while waiting for my parents to come get them. 
She was definitely not digging for info.  My wife is not the main caregiver and that's the biggest reason I wondered about it.  She and I both work full time.  He is in preschool while we are at work and once we are all home he honestly spends probably 90-95 percent of his time with me unless I have something going on to where I have to leave the house.  And even then if at all possible he goes with me.  We are rarely all in the same room together.  She just can't handle it.  If the boys would sit on the couch and stay quiet she would be fine with it.  Having to answer the million questions a 4 year old asks puts her on edge and usually leads to a comment about how no one (not even her 1 year old and 4 old) will listen to her.  The boys and I lock ourselves away in the playroom every evening until they go to sleep so that we don't bother her.  Many days he begs and begs to go downstairs to be with mommy.  She makes empty promises that if he will just go play for a little bit she will come get him before bed so she can read to him or whatever else he might want and then put him to sleep with her.  Unfortunately it only happens maybe once in every 50 promises or so and he knows as soon as she says it that she isn't gonna come get him.  I've accepted that it's just the way she is but it really saddens me for the boys sake.  I've started to wonder if it would be better for them in that regard if we weren't together.  At least then when they are with me they don't hear the empty promises and when they are with her she would have no choice but to be there with them.

[thankful person]

You are a good father and I’m so glad they have you. Does your wife ever say cruel things to the older one, like may she have ever told him she doesn’t love him or doesn’t want to be with him? I’m getting that she doesn’t cope well on her own with them and so I expect she doesn’t have to very much. My wife is the opposite actually. Wanting to spend every moment with our children and jealous of their love for me and my love for them. She is a good mother most of the time, if it weren’t for the shouting, door slamming and occasionally snatching the children from me. Fortunately her behaviour has improved recently in response to the changes I have made.

[who_knows11]

You are a good father and I’m so glad they have you. Does your wife ever say cruel things to the older one, like may she have ever told him she doesn’t love him or doesn’t want to be with him? I’m getting that she doesn’t cope well on her own with them and so I expect she doesn’t have to very much. My wife is the opposite actually. Wanting to spend every moment with our children and jealous of their love for me and my love for them. She is a good mother most of the time, if it weren’t for the shouting, door slamming and occasionally snatching the children from me. Fortunately her behaviour has improved recently in response to the changes I have made.

She doesn't say things specifically like that.  She makes comments sometimes about how he just won't give her what she wants basically.  I definitely wouldn't call it cruel, but it just seems sometimes that she points out that he is disrupting her life in the moment.  I mean I get that sometimes your kids will try your patience and get on your nerves even, but that's not a concept they can understand yet so I'm sure it can be damaging to try to tell them that.  I have a really hard time with the "I love you but..." statements.  There is no "but" to it so why say it?  I pretty much just see the typical BPD cycle from her.  Complete adoration and idealization of the boys followed by complete isolation and criticism

[thankful person]

I pretty much just see the typical BPD cycle from her.  Complete adoration and idealization of the boys followed by complete isolation and criticism

I understand what you’re saying. I have been very pleased with how much I have improved my self esteem and my relationship with my wife. This has had a very positive effect on my children’s lives as there is much less shouting and anger. But. My children aren’t talking yet. But I see the confusion on their little faces when Mummy suddenly shrieks at them and they don’t understand why. I guess they’re less used to it to these days. But I’m sadly certain that one day they will say things to me like, “Mummy doesn’t love me…” ;(

[who_knows11]

I understand what you’re saying. I have been very pleased with how much I have improved my self esteem and my relationship with my wife. This has had a very positive effect on my children’s lives as there is much less shouting and anger. But. My children aren’t talking yet. But I see the confusion on their little faces when Mummy suddenly shrieks at them and they don’t understand why. I guess they’re less used to it to these days. But I’m sadly certain that one day they will say things to me like, “Mummy doesn’t love me…” ;(

It's definitely great to hear that progress is possible.  Glad to hear you were able to do so.  I'm currently reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells" so we will see if I can make some as well.  I know what you mean by the confusion on their faces.  Mine is either all about them or all against them.  When she snaps on the oldest you can tell he has no idea what is going on

[Notwendy]

My wife is not the main caregiver and that's the biggest reason I wondered about it.  She and I both work full time.  He is in preschool while we are at work and once we are all home he honestly spends probably 90-95 percent of his time with me unless I have something going on to where I have to leave the house.  And even then if at all possible he goes with me.  We are rarely all in the same room together.  She just can't handle it.

IMHO, thank goodness your wife is not the main caregiver. That you recognize that she can't handle it is a good thing. This does leave it up to you, but it's much better for the children that it is you who are the main caregiver. I understand it's more difficult for you but from my own experience, I know that this similar arrangement benefitted me. I think I'd have been far worse off if not for the efforts of my father.

I understand that the child says they want their mommy. They do want a mommy- but the mother they have is not that mommy.

We had a similar arrangement with sitters and then Dad as primary caregiver. The difference is that my BPD mother did not work out of the home. We were too young to know why we had sitters. We also wanted a mommy to take care of us, but like your kids' mother, mine could not handle it and my father must have realized that. We didn't understand it then but I do understand it now and I am grateful for that. I had someone to take care of me who could handle it and surely this was better than putting both my mother and children in an emotionally unstable situation.


Over the long run, the person who does the loving caregiving forms the strongest bond with the children. We spent most of our time with Dad doing fun things on weekends- movies, parks, museums. BPD mother stayed home. I know that my father was probably getting us out of her way to not stress her. On our part, we had some great times with Dad. While it may bother BPD mother that we didn't have a secure bond with her - it's not something we set out to do, it's just how it turned out.

I've started to wonder if it would be better for them in that regard if we weren't together.

That is hard to judge. My parents stayed together. I think in there day, custody went to the mother so it was better for us that they stayed intact. I don't know the legalities of this but if you are thinking mostly for them, then custody becomes a concern. It may not be good for them to be alone with her for long times. However, it's also good for you to be happiest and you would then have a place for them and you alone-if you had full custody. This is all speculation. The decision has pros and cons both ways. Something to consider though is self care and how you can best care for them and you.

[thankful person]

I know what you mean by the confusion on their faces.  Mine is either all about them or all against them.  When she snaps on the oldest you can tell he has no idea what is going on

I honestly am so glad I found this forum, and was brave enough to make changes. I was very different to you in desperately trying to please my wife and giving up things I loved just because she demanded it. I can’t believe I planned to raise a family in this environment, but I could see no other way. I’m so glad I saw sense before the children could really see what was going on. But for some reason I was totally blind to how my bpd wife would likely treat our children. I guess I knew she would continue to shriek at me, but it broke my heart to see how she would shriek at our eldest to stay on the breast when she was two days old. There was so much shrieking in her first year (before I found bpd family). She is a happy little girl at 2.5 and I’m really hoping it hasn’t affected her too much. But despite my wife being much calmer she does not treat the children fairly all the time. She is the main caregiver but I am home working most of the time. I would love to take more care of them on my own and take them out like Not Wendy’s father did. But my wife is still very against the idea of us doing things apart so I’m slowly getting her used to the idea first without bringing the children into it. I think the eldest is closer to me because she feels safer with me, not that my wife would hurt her but just as we all know, it’s difficult to trust someone who suddenly gets angry and you don’t understand why.