How to reconcile in a healthy way

[15years]

Maybe I'm starting too many new topics, but things are so intense right now with new situations frequently along with new thoughts. It does help, so thank you all.

What are the healthy ways to reconcile after a fight where hurtful things has been said and done? When an argument escalates into hurtful interaction we are both feeling high levels of anger. I don't want to give in to her feelings and that works while I'm still very angry because it feels good to be angry, but when the anger fades I'm not interested in us being unfriendly towards each other. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

Have you ever reconciled with your partner in healthy ways? Does anyone have positive experiences?

The bottom line is that no matter what I choose to do, she will like me again at some point in the next few days because it's a cycle (I guess she gets exhausted from fighting too). Either I calm her down by giving in or she ultimately chooses to talk for me. In other words she believe that she knows what I think and feel deep down, but I supposedly don't. I just want to learn to do what's best for everyone long term.

The bad alternatives:
1.  Say I'm sorry for what I said and did and agree with the accusations that started the fight, and say I'm sorry for minimizing those accusations a.s.o. After a long talk I might even start to believe that she was right all along.
(This used to be my most used alternative)
2. Say sorry for what I'm actually sorry about and explain why I'm not sorry for the rest.
(wouldn't work of course and I rarely try this)
3. Avoid talking as much as possible until she chooses to believe that deep down I'm a good person, which she will talk endlessly about. Confirm her point of view with short answers and nods.
(My most common solution nowadays).



Latest case study:
We were about to go to sleep. She was talking about how men are abusive when they buy underwear as gifts to their woman, we are exploiting our women and making them into sex objects rather than accepting them for they are. I have bought her underwear a couple of times in 15 years but never anything obviously improper, just normal everyday sexy underwear. Then another issue came up, I once made a quick sketch of her body and I'm not very skilled at drawing. According to her in the sketch I made her thinner and with bigger boobs than in reality and I had left her head out. I'm pretty confident I didn't try to offend her in any way, rather the opposite, but I can see how that could be seen as hurtful but in the scale of things I'm not that eager to apologize.
I stayed calm until the very end when I had to leave the bedroom to sleep on the couch (she left me alone surprisingly fast). Before that she attacked me and I threatened her by making myself big and approaching her (I am tall so no problem, is that ok as self defence?) and ultimately I said some hurtful things, like telling her I hate her which felt really good at the time.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

I don't think it's starting too many threads, but consider that there are common themes to each discussion you have that lead to conflict.

When you consider each incident as a separate issue, you don't see the common cause/theme/dynamics of all of them.

It seems that each time a thread heads in that direction, you have another altercation with her. Of course that becomes the most concerning issue to you in the moment, and this is understandable.

However, each one of these incidents may be due to a common issue and also the dynamics between the two of you. You may find that one resolves for a while- but then, the topic starts again, usually being triggered by something you consider to be minor or non consequential, or doesn't make sense to you, like a character in a TV show.

Your wife has some issues with sex, and sexual content and her idea that men are abusive to women if they want to have sex. Yes, of course there are ways to be disrespectful with this drive. But this drive is also part of normal human sexuality and a good part of a mutually agreed upon bond. If she's making something "wrong" from buying a box of tea with a picture of a woman, or buying underwear in a mutually agreeable situation, there's something else about it to her.

All her upsets seem to be about this one thing: To her, "men are sexually abusive to women"  and even minor unrelated things trigger this. Since the two of you are in an intimate relationship and you plan to remain in this- how to deal with this may be the direction to go to, rather than the individual conflicts.

[15years]

Yes, it's a common theme and I do realize that I would benefit from not focusing too much on the individual conflicts.

I more easily feel guilt around sex related issues maybe because of my own shame, that's one reason why those issues are so dominant in our conflicts. But it definitely is also about her, what is important to her.

I'm still curious if anyone here manages to reconcile in healthy ways with their pwBPD?

[Lifehasitsups]

I understand where you are coming from and am in a very similar situation. I have not found great ways to reconcile arguments or deal with internal frustration. I have found that if I stay very calm and continue to ask “what I can do in this moment” it helps us both stay present. I have also been persistent on saying “ask for what you want without criticizing me”. Best wishes to you brother.

Thanks for posting this and starting this discussion.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm still curious if anyone here manages to reconcile in healthy ways with their pwBPD?

Yes. It’s possible, but first you have to quit participating in arguments. When we say don’t JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) we mean DO NOT DO ANY OF THESE BEHAVIORS AT ALL. 

Though it may feel good at the time to say hurtful things, it is counterproductive to the extreme. Either you want to make your relationship better or you don’t. You need to decide this question.

If you want to improve things, DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN ARGUMENTS. Period.

You can say something like, “I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m not interested in discussing this further.” Then go sleep on the couch if she persists in trying to start an argument.

[15years]

Yes. It’s possible, but first you have to quit participating in arguments. When we say don’t JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) we mean DO NOT DO ANY OF THESE BEHAVIORS AT ALL. 

Though it may feel good at the time to say hurtful things, it is counterproductive to the extreme. Either you want to make your relationship better or you don’t. You need to decide this question.

If you want to improve things, DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN ARGUMENTS. Period.

You can say something like, “I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m not interested in discussing this further.” Then go sleep on the couch if she persists in trying to start an argument.

Thank you for being so clear about that. The thing is I have never used my anger this much before and it feels good to stand up for myself. I also manage to sustain my anger and not apologize for things I don't regret. Now that I know I can be angry I can switch to using my anger by being assertive. Is that reasonable?

[Cat Familiar]

I get it. I was extremely angry for a long time because I’d repressed my anger, appeased, looked out for others’ interests instead of my own, for so many years.

Now I channel my anger when it comes up into steely indifference. I’m all about strategy, what works. I’ve learned that expressing my anger is shooting myself in the foot, so there’s no way I want to weaken my position through letting unbridled anger slip, since I know that pwBPD can and will use that against me.

[FirstSteps]

This is a great conversation for me too.  I was reading a Patricia Evans book about verbally abusive people and it seemed so tempting to follow her advice and start snapping at and confronting my uPBDw (even if in a controlled way).  But my T kindly pointed out how badly that would go.  We're not really in this day-to-day place now but if we somehow go back to it, I need to aim for steely indifference

[15years]

True, indifference works surprisingly good. I have tried to force myself to feel what she wants me to feel and that didn't work that well. Indifference makes me more calm which she seem to appreciate. It feels like stepping out of the roller coaster, to finally realize that and also be able to do it is rewarding.

I also like strategy and I am very interested in finding out what works and not. I can actually think logically that my upset feelings will change faster if I stay calm and not take things personally.

What I need to work on is more effective ways to end situations in a calm manner.

FirstSteps and Lifehasitsups
I'm glad you commented about experiencing similar problems, it feels good to not be alone and I think we can help each other by sharing our experiences even if we're not experts (yet .

[Notwendy]

I didn't catch the "anger" back suggestion in the Patricia Evans' books, but I agree- that idea isn't helpful. The helpful aspect of the books was to understand what is verbal abuse as she describes the examples and dynamics well. However, verbal abuse isn't just with BPD- so the books aren't specific to BPD.

While it might feel good to respond angrily in the moment, I have found this to be like peeing into the wind. It will come back at you. A strong defense mechanism that I have seen with BPD is projection. PwBPD have difficulty managing uncomfortable emotions. In the face of anger, I think they are likely to disassociate and rage.

I think staying calm and not reacting emotionally does help. There is information on this board about how not to JADE. Also not taking it personally- often what they say is more a reflection on them, not you.

Consider that these kinds of episodes "work for them" in the sense that it's a way to release/manage uncomfortable feelings. It becomes a sort of pattern between the two of you. They get upset, they trigger you, you participate. The feelings are out but you feel drained. If you can stay calm and not react emotionally, it may help to not escalate the drama. I think the idea of "getting some water" was a good strategy- it gave you both a chance to cool down a bit.

[formflier]

  Is that reasonable?

It's a reasonable and common chain of thought and feelings to come to this conclusion.

Much of what I see in this thread is people asking you to "consider things from another angle".

With that idea, have your expressions of anger benefited the relationship?  If so in what way?

Same question but have they hurt the relationship?  If so in what way?

I would encourage you to read Cat Familiar's posts again and I hope you can see her urging you towards PRAGMATISM.  With that in mind you may find ways of helping your relationship that don't work for other people posting on here.  Lots of trial and error and reflection involved here.

Last for now:  I didn't so much decide I wasn't going to "argue" any more, but I did decide I was not going to engage in "circular discussions" or "circular arguments".  By definition this takes 2 or 3 times "around the circle" to identify that this is happening.  I try to hold myself to the standard that if I don't "exit" by 3 times around...I need to look at the part I played in this..vice blaming my wife for being unreasonable.

No criticism of "don't argue"...just pointing out what has worked for me.

Best,

FF

[Lifehasitsups]

Wow, formflier, that is a wonderful practice. Thanks for the wisdom.

“ I didn't so much decide I wasn't going to "argue" any more, but I did decide I was not going to engage in "circular discussions" or "circular arguments".  By definition this takes 2 or 3 times "around the circle" to identify that this is happening.”

[formflier]

Now..putting that into practice was "entertaining" (to put it politely) and lots of harsh words about me walking away and all that.

But...it's worth it!


Best,

FF

[FirstSteps]

15years - I agree.  It's so helpful for me too to particularly see your posts and the similarities in our situations.  A real reality check, in the best way.

Notwendy - Patricia Evans doesn't say to get angry but it is a lot about snapping "Stop it!"  "Don't do that!" and so on.  To just stop the verbal abuse cycle before it starts.  I listened to the audio book and the tone the reader used was very angry.  I agree it's not so useful with BPD though, unless you're ready to say it and just walk away for, um, maybe a month?

I really struggle with the cycle you describe because it is both just life with BPD but it's also a cycle of abuse.  Are they always one and the same?  Or is staying with a pwBPD and dealing with it different?  Because they're brains are different and more childlike? 

It is so good for me to come back to the calmness. I had been on an OK track but just broke down under the relentlessness of my wife.  I need to get back.  I love the idea of leaving after 2-3 cycles.  It seems more fair to give the conversation a chance and not just dismiss every seemingly dysregulated work by walking away.  But it's all very, very hard.  I don't really get angry (maybe 2-3x in the past year) but I do slip into JADEing in a very subtle way.  But it's not so subtle that it keeps me out of trouble.  She jumps it, starts blaming me and off we go.  Recently, I've been more staring into space and playing the victim, which gets me out of situations quite quickly actually. But seems like a really horrible way to deal with it. I do not want to just shift roles within the Karpman triangle.  So that has to stop too! 

[formflier]

So...tips for exiting after 2 or 3 cycles. 

First of all...think about several responses that are essentially the same..but sound different, so you don't end up sounding like a programmed robot.

"Hey FFw...I want to understand the new information you raised, can you clarify which parts of that are new?"

Then...any future responses are focused on "clarifying what's new"...vice engaging with the same info over and over.

Let's assume things go well and a point is clarified as being new.  "Oh wow...I hear that now.  Let me give some thought to that new information and let's talk more over dinner tonight."  (see how there is a "door open" to a gentle withdrawal.)

Let's assume it doesn't go well  "blah blah you don't care what's new, you are a newt and you smell like a hamster..."

In cases like this I try to "be genuine"..so when shocking things are said...it's appropriate to be shocked...don't save pwBPD from this.  "Oh my..that's shocking...I'm speechless.  I'm going to need to take  walk to clear my head, I'll check in with you in about 30 minutes".  (then leave..ignore the insults and whatever else comes your way)

Best,

FF

[healthfreedom4s]

15 years,
First - I think the idea that we could follow the traditional steps (that we normally adopt to de-escalate, reconcile and patch up) with pwBPD is incorrect. Their mind doesn't take a logical route from conflict to patch up.
I believe the foundational tools that are suggested for relationship with pwBPD is still useful here. I have found "Don't JADE" and BIFF to be valuable.

From here - is my personal approach. It has its drawbacks and works to some extent for me. I share it here to give some perspective.
After a conflict, I approach my pwBPD as if nothing happened. I try to talk about kids or household matters. The initial response will be silent treatment (which I would fully expect going into it). I will continue to go about daily life and initiate another interaction with my pwBPD an hour or so later. I will likely get silent treatment again [In the recent times, I have learned to detach myself from my pwBPD's emotions, so it helps to take this approach].
By next day, my pwBPD would either respond or even initiate a conversation. My pwBPD will move on like nothing happened. There are two things at play here 1) My inability to handle the difficult topic that originally led to conflict with my pwBPD 2) The nature of the issue itself - it is most likely an issue where my pwBPD would have very fixed opinions or distorted recollection of events. Discussing it doesn't help most of the times in my situation. Also - like I said in #1, I too have not developed my skills yet.
I don't recommend this approach of not talking about it (no surprise, we are in a very challenging relationship situation). But I suggest you try the option of - trying to resume life as if nothing happened, de-escalate and then have a conversation at a more peaceful time. See if this works with your pwBPD.

[formflier]

So I take the above approach..with one addition.

I also call it "sticking my toe in the emotional water"...to see how "hot" it is.

So..there has been an outburst of some sort and it seems to have died down.

"Hey FFw...should I pick up some Salmon at the store or hunt for some beef?"

In old days the flamethrower would come back on...nowadays it's more silent or "clipped" answers.


"Hey babe...there was some kind of disagreement a couple days ago.  Anything there you want to talk more about...or are we good?"

(note..for me...being vague seems important.  Never hint that it was "her" fault and always always..."leave her an easy button"..."or an open door out"...)

She will usually kinda be like "Oh yeah...that...ummm...we're good."  (and it never even happened...usually a hug or something is tossed in here)

I've said it before "pragmatism"...just find something that works.  Lots of trial and error.

Best,

FF

[15years]

With that idea, have your expressions of anger benefited the relationship?  If so in what way?

It has benefited me to realize I'm not a 100 % scared of her, that I can be mentally strong. Trusting my own opinion/feelings/thoughts has been hard for me but I'm improving in that area. But I realize I don't need to be physically or verbally aggressive, not taking it personally or being assertive is also using anger rather then building up anger.

I do however feel that I need to be a little tough also, without that I easily fall into trying to accommodate her when the tension and fear of conflict increases and ultimately breaks into an argument where I feel weak and defenseless. But I certainly don't need to yell or fight, I need my self esteem and to be a little emotionless when it's needed.

Can't I give her the hard truth without expecting it to sink in, only to give myself the power over a situation? For example I told her quite harshly that two days ago that I expect her to control herself in the future and not be physically violent. She argued back but I insisted again and she has not mentioned it since. I know it causes her shame to be violent.

Also I wanna mention that she rarely gets physically violent when I argue back. Physical violence ALWAYS starts when I'm being passive, trying to validate her or listen to her. I guess I have to find the middle way where I'm not being passive but not aggressive either.

Same question but have they hurt the relationship?  If so in what way?

In some cases it has fueled her anger and if I've done something I'm feeling guilty and/or ashamed for I have found myself feeling very vulnerable. That makes me too nice in the honeymoon phase and I'm more interested in a stable level of aggression. Using my aggression to like myself for example.  

I would encourage you to read Cat Familiar's posts again and I hope you can see her urging you towards PRAGMATISM.  With that in mind you may find ways of helping your relationship that don't work for other people posting on here.  Lots of trial and error and reflection involved here.

Last for now:  I didn't so much decide I wasn't going to "argue" any more, but I did decide I was not going to engage in "circular discussions" or "circular arguments".  By definition this takes 2 or 3 times "around the circle" to identify that this is happening.  I try to hold myself to the standard that if I don't "exit" by 3 times around...I need to look at the part I played in this..vice blaming my wife for being unreasonable.

I find both Cat's and your ways of dealing with situations to be interesting. Both of you seem to use your aggression proactively to not let it build up. I want to be pragmatic and strategic but also state my opinion to some degree.


I want to be in love with her, that is also something to consider.

[formflier]

  but also state my opinion to some degree.
 

This jumped out at me!

I totally remember thinking that I "had to" be heard or I would wonder "how can we compromise if she won't listen to my position"


Well...for this particular thing I now do something like this

FFw "blah blah blah...we must do this and we must do that...and you smell and pick boogers."

First of all...have strength to ignore insults...just ignore them.  She is waving the red cape at me hoping I will charge.

Second:  Assume the best and think that there is something real to talk about in the "this and that" part.  Realize that she is worked up...and let her decide when it's a good time..vice trying to force her.

So it might sound something like this

"OK...anything you want to add so I understand your opinion?"  (note..."opinion" is critical.  If she can discuss..she won't fight it, if she can't discuss..."it's not opinion..that's a fact and it's what we are going to do".  FF now knows she is in BPD land)

So...once I know she is in BPD land.

"Oh my...I see and need to give this some thought.  Let me know when it's a good time to listen to my opinion and then craft a compromise."

I don't budge on the words "my opinon" and "compromise"...they are somewhat inflammatory to her but that's a place where I "hold firm".

Might take a few days but she usually comes around.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I do however feel that I need to be a little tough also---I need my self esteem and to be a little emotionless when it's needed.

Can't I give her the hard truth without expecting it to sink in, only to give myself the power over a situation? For example I told her quite harshly that two days ago that I expect her to control herself in the future and not be physically violent. She argued back but I insisted again and she has not mentioned it since. I know it causes her shame to be violent.

Also I wanna mention that she rarely gets physically violent when I argue back. Physical violence ALWAYS starts when I'm being passive, trying to validate her or listen to her.


I think the nuance is between aggression and assertiveness- and how to assert a boundary without crossing the line to causing harm. I have  experienced this and - it's quite difficult because, when I am assertive, my  BPD mother becomes waify and just soo soo hurt ( and it's an act) but it's difficult. It feels awful to be seen as some kind of "ogre" and it must have been harder for my father to feel like this. His choice was to be passive appease her and as you mentioned- she became more abusive to him. I also have a sibling who is passive and appease her and she is verbally and emotionally abusive to them.

Less so to me as I have also stood up to her. I wasn't allowed to as my father didn't allow us to, but later as an adult, I did. This was not without consequences as she doesn't like boundaries.

I did once lose it with her and screamed at her- let out all that rage and as I said, peeing in the wind, it has unwanted consequences.  I can get her to stop temporarily by being harsh ( verbally, I would never hurt her) with her. It actually scares her a bit. But I don't intend this, and I don't want this- and I don't think your want your spouses to feel this way.

But it seems to her that having any boundaries with her results in her feeling "hurt" in some way and the only way to avoid this is to be passive and appease her - which then results in her abusive behavior increasing. Yet, being assertive, without it crossing over to aggression, and staying calm when she's emotional has been effective and not damaging.

I found that it depends a lot on me. If my own emotions are "triggered" by her ( and she can say some hurtful things), or if I am being very fearful in the moment, or angry, or hurt, or shame ( shame is a tough one) then it's apparent in my voice. However if I can remain calm and reply calmly, firmly, without emotion, it can deescalate the situation. This takes some personal work though.

It's not just what you say, but how you say it. Aggression would be towering over her, angrily saying "I expect you to control yourself" vs staying a bit farther away, speaking calmly and firmly " I need to excuse myself until we can both be calmer and I will not tolerate physical violence". This is a boundary and framing it like this makes it about you. The boundary is you don't tolerate this kind of behavior.

I think the best way to de-escalate is to stay calm. Reply assertively and firmly but know the line between that and anger and aggression. Those may work in the moment, but they have consequences to the relationship.

[Lifehasitsups]

Setting boundaries can be really difficult and has caused her to call me a psychopath for staying so calm many times. Be prepared for that. I recently  had a single great success with this that stopped the ragIng. No lasting affect but it may be worth a try. After one episode where she even followed me around the block when I needed to clear my head, I told her my boundary is that you cannot call me names or attack me. She agreed and so I sat with her. Two minutes in I stopped her, she hates to be interrupted, and I said something like “your attacking me. I want to be here with you and listen. When you attack me like this, my brain has to sort through what your saying and let some words go right out the other side. That makes it really hard for me to understand what you are trying to communicate. I also become guarded which makes it even harder to understand what you need.” She actually thanked me for explaining that!  Like I said there was no lasting effect but it stopped her cold in her tracks.

After 16 years I am still shocked how big blow ups just seem to not exist to her hours or days later. I often wonder if she even remembers them.

[FirstSteps]

lifehasitsups - this could be really useful for me.  I also just started saying that she couldn't blame/attack me or bring up our relationship in terms of her despair or crisis.  It did not go well.  But this kind of explanation might actually work.  Or it will continue to just not go well.  I'm learning to accept that.

However, she's the opposite of many here - she does not forget at all.  Well, she used to bounce back but does this much, much less now.  She will dwell on the smallest details and looks from the "argument" for days on end.  This is partially what's hardest for me - there is never any resolution.  The "argument" circles for eternity, it feels like.  Even returning weeks later out of nowhere.  We actually had a conversation about this today - what she needs and what I need to get back to normal. We'll see if it actually takes. 

[formflier]

 I also just started saying that she couldn't blame/attack me or bring up our relationship in terms of her despair or crisis.  It did not go well.  

Big picture:  Read this a couple times...the big picture is you are trying to control her.  Remind me again of your results?   

Shift the thinking...what if you could only control yourself?  What would that look like?

Best,

FF

[FirstSteps]

formflier - this is obviously a work in progress area for me.  In the argument, I actually did it "right" and said "I don't want to stay in this discussion if it becomes about me and my failures"  Or something like that.

But clearly underneath, I'm still trying to control her and the situation - as shown by how I describe it. 

Real tough to even define where my line is when it's such a circular conversation and maybe even started reasonably and where I might have something to apologize for.  So got some work to do ...

Thanks again for the insight.