Success with SET and intentional effort not to JADE

[Mommydoc]

I had what I felt was a very successful interaction this morning with my sister with uBPD. It was successful because, I felt fine during and after, and she expressed that she felt heard and understood. It did not change many of the underlying issues in our relationship. She still rehashed multiple past events where I made her feel bad, she still put all the blame on me for the problems in our relationship, she still doesn’t accept my HC POA role and wants to move my mom into a new facility. My husband ease dropped from other room and his summary was she did 90% of the talking, you were consistently calm and had a kind tone throughout.

I mentally prepared, and really worked to create a mindset of radical acceptance of the circumstances, loving kindness. I made a very conscious commitment to myself to avoid JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain). Generally the radical acceptance helped a lot because my focus was on her, her feelings, listening, reflecting and validating them. I felt no need to explain or justify my actions. Just validate hers.

I have read about SET many times and think I do it generally pretty well intuitively with friends, other family members and colleagues. But it has always been a struggle to do, because her accusations and distortions make me so defensive making speaking my truth in those situations so hard.

What I did this time that was slightly different is I anticipated her  attack, and prepared and wrote down supportive and empathetic statements; I kept listening mostly, reflecting back what she said paired with the pre-prepared supportive and empathetic statements, until she told me that she felt heard and validated. Then, at that point, I finally spoke my truth, it was brief and concise and she didn’t agree with it, but it was important to get it out there. Part of my truth was telling her that I appreciated her sharing account of the events and how I made her feel and I was sorry that I made her feel that way. I also told her that my perspective of what occurred would look quite different but I had no need to make any counterpoints, as my goal is to focus on the positive progress we are making, where we do have common ground and our commitment to moving forward. I told her I would make every effort to learn from the past and include her in decisions, but if we were in a situation where we disagreed on a medical decision, that I would make the decision I felt best for mom, as her HC POA.  She unraveled a few times after that , but I kept bringing her back to wanting to end the conversation on the positive note place we had been 10 minutes ago, etc.

By letting her do most of the talking and reflecting back to her and sticking to not JADEing, I was able to also pay attention to my own feelings for one of the first times, and even though she was characteristically the same as always, I felt fine when we were done. I didn’t feel exhausted and sucked dry like I frequently feel after talking to her. Nothing really changed with her, the change was completely me.

I gained some new insights into her thinking, even though it is still very distorted.  She told me that the pandemic was financially devastating for her and she didn’t want to financially liable for my mom’s expenses if she runs out of money, which is very highly unlikely and I have committed to fully covering any shortfall if that happened. The money is definitely  the issue but she can’t come out and say it. She will continue to want to move my mom to a less expensive facility to preserve the trust assets for inheritance and I will continue to want to assure stability and the higher level of care at the place she is in. Her tactic is to criticize the medical team, the facility, me, etc, but in reality what she wants is to spend less of my moms money on her care and reverse the “Wrong” of the decision to go to this facility in the first place. That was my parents decision but she blames me. 

Not sure there is any solution there, but if I can include her in other decisions, and just hold my ground there, it likely won’t resolve until my mother passes away. I don’t think she will take me to court and don’t think she stands a chance if she did. We share financial POA 50/50, and she wants to make this a case of my mother can’t afford this ( she can). Appreciate any advice on how to manage the clear impasse.

[Notwendy]

I think you did great!

I think the impasse is that, she hopes to inherit something to ease her financial situation but she can't say that. I think her concern about being financially liable is as close as she can say this. However, if your mother's care expenses exceed her savings - even though you are willing to cover them, this still means nothing is left for her.

So, on her part, she wants to have your mother in a less expensive facility, and your wish is for your mother to remain where she is. I don't think there's a solution that could fit both your wishes. Since you have medical POA, it's your decision to make.

That she wants something different from what you want could be the source of circular discussions like the ones you have had. The fact that she began to reveal the financial strain "due to the pandemic" is a step- I am going to bet there were strains before that, but since the pandemic has affected a lot of people financially, it has now become an acceptable thing to disclose.

I think you did well to listen to her, to validate her feelings, and yet, stand your ground on your mother's care. Your sister will come up with all kinds of reasons for her discomfort and make it your fault. Often what they say isn't the actual cause. You didn't cause this but by not going along with her wishes, she sees you as causing discomfort. Don't take this personally.

[Mommydoc]

You didn't cause this but by not going along with her wishes, she sees you as causing discomfort. Don't take this personally.

Thanks so much Notwendy. Such an important reminder. I could avoided a lot of therapy if I had figured this out sooner. I love and care about her and it has been hard to get to the place where I do that, while rejecting her “Version” of the world. Some of it is laughable, if it weren’t so personal. You are right we will continue to circle around on this issue. My hope is by staying on closer contact, I can get her to move forward or at least make agreements about other things. Most of which from my perspective, are less important and I can totally flex on to give her greater control. Hope you are doing well.

[Notwendy]

Thanks Mommydoc! Hope you are doing well also.

It's a different issue with my BPD mother, but still BPD dynamics. There are no sibling issues, we are aligned in our wishes for her care but she won't cooperate with us.

It's elderly BPD mother who doesn't manage money well and also is secretive about her finances. Dad left her enough for her to be well taken care of, but one can mismanage any amount. Our expectation is that all of what Dad left should be for her. We just hope it's enough, and we have no way to know.

So, we just hope for the best. We have POA in the case she can no longer make decisions but at the moment, she is in charge.

I know it's tough to have a sister who questions you. You have the training to coordinate your mother's care- and how she reacts doesn't change that. There's a reason your mother put you in charge. Hold on to that knowledge. You will do the right thing.

[livednlearned]

I anticipated her attack, and prepared and wrote down supportive and empathetic statements

This seems very connected to this:

I was able to also pay attention to my own feelings for one of the first times

Because you focused on validation, you were able to remove yourself from the circular conversation. She was in the circle, and you were adjacent, able to be an empathetic observer.

It is a therapeutic way to engage her at a time when your own needs must be depleted. 

In my relationships with difficult people, I often think of a cup that is more or less filled. The more it is filled, the more I can sustain and even offer. I can manage boundaries and empathize more. Your example made me realize this is true of BPD sufferers, too. When we validate effectively (fill cup) it becomes easier to state a truth (drain cup). They are less skilled at filling their own cup -- the need is shifted to us.

We talk about radical acceptance here when it comes to BPD. I think the same is true when we talk about boundaries. Most of us have a tendency to be conflict avoidant and find boundaries challenging. Having radical acceptance that a boundary is necessary can be freeing.

Maybe one way to manage the clear impasse is to prepare yourself for the feelings that come when you assert a boundary that is both not-negotiable and one that will persist as long as your sister's financial situation remains unchanged.

If you were raised to treat boundaries as movable lines, it can feel uncomfortable to treat them as immovable. And yet, from a feelings perspective, at least if your feelings matter, they are immovable. If you have a strong conviction, and this means not compromising, it's ok to grieve that as a loss. You no longer have as many options for accommodating someone else.

On the flip side, you may feel some peace knowing that the choice is firm, you are standing by a conviction to be true to your values, or true to your mom, whatever it may be.

Paying attention to how we feel when we make the right choice won't dial down the conflict but it can sometimes help us tolerate the natural consequences when someone with BPD encounters a boundary they don't like.

[WalkbyFaith]

Hi Mommydoc,
I really appreciate hearing your story of your overall successful conversation with your sister. Thanks so much for sharing your success and your techniques with us!

This was especially eye opening and helpful to me in my own situation:

I also told her that my perspective of what occurred would look quite different but I had no need to make any counterpoints, as my goal is to focus on the positive progress

I am committed myself to NOT making defenses and counterpoints, but your statement made me realize that it might be helpful to actually state that to my uBPD mom.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I hope your conversations continue to progress forward!

[Mommydoc]

It is amazing to me that although all of our situations are different there are so many commonalities in the dynamics.

Notwendy, I am so happy your siblings are aligned with you, as provides validation is so important at those moments when we doubt ourselves. When I made the decision as HC DPOA to move my mom to the higher level of care, I allowed all my sisters negativity create doubt for me. 

There's a reason your mother put you in charge. Hold on to that knowledge.

that comment is so relevant, my mom is effusive in her gratitude to me and validates the decision every time I see her. My dedication to my mother  makes it much easier to hold firm on my boundaries. She is predictable, and it is uncomfortable but I feel better knowing my mom is getting the care she needs and deserves.

Livednlearned, your comments are so wise. Thank you. Someone on this board made a comment similar to yours around boundaries that stuck with me, that by holding to boundaries with pwBPD, you are actually helping them and creating structure. I love the idea of being an empathetic observer and making it easier for her . I try to do it often at work, when I observe a conflict, when I step out of it, I can often see things with greater clarity, find common ground for others and facilitate resolution. This recent experience gives me confidence that these same tools can be effective with her.

WalkbyFaith good luck with your mother. Saying it aloud was more for me than for her, but just a more explicit way of setting a boundary. Basically telling her you can rehash this as many times as you want but you are going to dance solo, I am not going to engage. My sister made this huge fuss of “forgiving me” but truth is she will rehash some of these events over and over again until goes to her grave. I am determined not to engage. Easier said than done. I am a work in progress for sure.

As mentioned, she keeps asking about and saying she wants to know more about the finances. I send her regular updates and she gets all the bank statements. Today I was talking to my financial advisor who I actually met when my sister and I set up my parents trust account many years ago . He has been so helpful in scenario planning for me and my husband’s retirement recently and so I asked him if he could do a similar analysis of my moms income, expenses and assets, and he thought it was a great idea. He will be completely neutral and objective. We did a similar thing with my mother in law, my husband and his sister and it was a game changer in helping change perspectives and aligned decision making. My only concern is if I suggest, I worry just because I am suggesting it, she will reject it. Any suggestions on how to make it her think it is her idea?

[Notwendy]

Mommydoc-

I think the financials is a good idea- for your records and in case of any accusations from your sister, there's objective documentation.

However, I doubt it will be acceptable to your sister. Still, if you feel it's a good idea, do it anyway.

What I have found with my mother's requests is that there's an agenda she doesn't reveal, an unspoken want or need to the request, so that sometimes filling the request doesn't do what she wants. Now, that is illogical unless one realizes the hidden, unspoken, reason behind what is being brought up- and the issue is brought up again.

Your sister keeps bringing up finances. What she "asks" doesn't match what she wants. You have answered what she asks many times but she keeps on bringing up finances.

She's alluded to it. It's money issues.

Shame avoidance is, I think, a primary reason for the veiled information/requests. There is already an imbalance of sorts between you and your sister. You are the more successful one. This is nobody's fault but this imbalance of perception on her part already is a source of discomfort for her. I think mismanaging money is common with BPD.

She's alluded to a need- and keeps bringing up finances. You answer logically with a record of where all the money goes. This doesn't satisfy her request because, this doesn't meet the hidden need behind it.

Your sister may love your mother, but may also have been hoping for an inheritance that she wants/needs. Now, to admit this feels wrong and macabre- right? So she can't say directly what she wants exactly ( but she's suggested it). The only logical reason for wanting your mother to be in a less expensive facility is for less money to be spent and more to be left over for her.

But she can not ask this without feeling shame, so she repeatedly brings up finances and accuses you, because she, herself, is frustrated by not getting what she wants.

It is not your responsibility to solve your sister's financial issues. You are not obligated to give her money. She knows that. However, she may continue to push the idea of a less expensive facility even if you present the finances logically and transparently. Do what you need for you to feel you did the best you could.

[Notwendy]

I will give you an example of how my mother makes "requests".

We planned a trip to visit her a while back. She had alienated me from her family and was trying to backtrack. They are often with their grandchildren, she wanted them to see her with her grandchildren. We had already agreed to a get together with them the next day, but didn't want to do it on the day we were travelling. So, I said " we will see your family the next day but just want to have a quiet family dinner with just you, on the day we drive to see you"

So she calls to offer to provide dinner. I know that to accept any money from her is a likely source of control- she wants something but then I thought, well, it's just dinner, what is the harm in that.

So then, she insists on a particular restaurant to deliver, which is expensive. I told her, we just want something simple. She insisted. "I just want to do something nice for my family" . Since we have food allergies in the family, I always call ahead to make sure the restaurant knows that. So I told her I would call and she replied "don't you dare call them" and I knew something was up.

Later on, she slipped this into the conversation. "Oh relatives X, and Y might drop by...

Then I knew. This wasn't a dinner with just us. This was a planned get together with her family and this was the reason for the fancy food. I called the restaurant in time to cancel the food order and told her we would see company the next day but not the day we travelled but that we wanted her to join us and I ordered food myself.

She was furious and then wailed. "You won't even allow me to have dinner for my grandchildren".

What tripped me up was this:

I am thinking " we are coming to visit BPD mother. This is something nice for her. We are going to have a quiet family dinner when we get there and a larger family get together the next day" and then I proceed with thinking this is what is going on, and she seems to agree to it.

She's thinking " I want my relatives to come over" but she can not ask because she knows I don't want that, and so, she presents it as providing dinner for us first. That sounds reasonable to me so I agree- and then the next step  is to bring up the idea that relatives might "drop by" . However, I am still acting on the first premise- this didn't meet her need and now, even though we have planned this nice visit, she's not happy with it.

You are acting on the premise of what your sister says " she wants to be involved in the decisions". However, if there's a need this doesn't meet, your fulfilling her request doesn't meet it.

Still you can stand your ground. On our part, we had been driving and wanted to have a quiet evening. We knew we would see the relatives the next day, so we weren't refusing to see them. The boundary for me was self care- if we have been on the road, we don't want to socialize that evening but we will the next day.

Your boundary is that your mother gets the best care and that her resources are allocated to that.

[Goldcrest]

Notwendy are you sure we don't share the same mother? LOL

[Notwendy]

I think we are all siblings in the mother with BPD club.

The pattern- what is being asked for isn't what they want.  This results in us agreeing to/providing the first request, thinking this will solve the issue, but it doesn't solve it because the first request is not actually what is wanted.

It's frustrating because, we really do want to have a good relationship and try to meet the requests we can, but not knowing the actual request, we fail to meet it or it's a boundary we don't want to cross.

[Mommydoc]

The pattern- what is being asked for isn't what they want.  This results in us agreeing to/providing the first request, thinking this will solve the issue, but it doesn't solve it because the first request is not actually what is wanted.

 My parents drummed into me the “big sister role”, your job is to take care of your sister.  I was expected  to to keep her from harm and discomfort. Ugh, so hard to let go of that programming.

Your story of the meal is perfect. It seems relatively innocent at first until you realize the amount of effort it took on her part to gain control and cross your boundary. How she veiled her intent so vigorously.  It is great you figured it out and maintained your self care boundary. 

If it isn’t finance records, it is medical records or something. She wants them but never reads them, or asks any questions so it is about making her feel in control of decisions.

A new nuance came up in this last conversation. You mentioned the perceived imbalance between us. “Equality”, is now one of her repetitive terms. She keeps asserting that she is my equal, equal decision maker, equal in wisdom. I think my parents decisions, moving here and making decisions based on my advice/POA is the issue that drives her anger. Yes she has incredible jealousy towards me, but it is my role as my parents trusted advisor that makes her feel less than. I can’t make her feel equal, regardless of what I say or all the records in the world,  because at the end of the day it is all about her parental rage  and how they have slighted her. She used to rage at my dad but never has against my mom. The rage towards both of them comes squarely at me. But I get that now and am able to observe it and no longer take responsibility for making her feel better.

It must be hard to be her/ them, so much energy expended without resolution of their underlying needs. For us, it is about not getting sucked into it, or believing it is our job to fix them.

[Notwendy]

Her MO to get through boundaries is to start with an innocent request while not revealing her actual want. And it's the kind of request that one would have to be some kind of ogre to refuse, such as providing dinner for her family. It's also normal. When my kids visit - I provide dinner. It didn't occur to me to refuse.

However, I had already stated my plans. "Mom, we are driving and won't be up for a social visit when we get there, however, we will see everybody the next day ( there were already plans in place for that). Then she came up with " they invited you over, can you do that?) and I replied, we will want to rest after driving again.

So then she began with the other plan. She's very savvy at how to get her way. I think she also realizes I have good intentions, after all- we did come to visit her. Just not the plan she wants. But she knows I am not an ogre and won't say no to something like her ordering dinner for us.

Which I didn't say no to, but it became the platform for her being a victim of her unreasonable daughter. " you won't give me the pleasure of providing dinner for my family".

You mentioned getting sibling validation and yes, I am grateful for that, but no matter what our efforts are, somehow she becomes a victim because of these kinds of requests, to which we eventually say no to. This feels like no matter what our efforts are, we somehow fail to meet her expectations. It's demoralizing. We can't change that.

You can't change the division of decision making that your parents set up. They chose you for the very reason that you would make the best medical decision. They trust you with their finances because you are reliable.

[Riv3rW0lf]

You mentioned getting sibling validation and yes, I am grateful for that, but no matter what our efforts are, somehow she becomes a victim because of these kinds of requests, to which we eventually say no to. This feels like no matter what our efforts are, we somehow fail to meet her expectations. It's demoralizing. We can't change that.

This reminded me of that time when I paid a round trip for my mother by plane, which cost quite a bit of money in my country. I wanted to make her happy; we would spend the week end together with my then 3 months old daughter while H was gone.

She chose when she would leave her province, and bought her tickets herself, which I reimbursed right away. While buying the tickets, she messed up and bought tickets for an evening flight, meaning I had to drive to the airport (about 35minutes drive) to get her with my 3 months old around 21h. I did. I didn't blame her, I didn't ask her to get a taxi, I went and picked her up, as requested.

When we got back home, she wanted to rock my baby girl, but it was already 22h, and we had to get up early the next day, plus, my baby needed to sleep, and I too... Most of us will remember how sleep deprived we feel those first few months.

Well, I offered ten minutes of rocking and told her she would be spending the whole day with her the next day and have plenty of time to rock her then, and it resulted in her screaming in my face (litterally two inches from it) that I was not nice with her, and not welcoming her properly... I remember holding my baby, feeling distressed, tired and confused.

I had literally just bought her a round trip to spend time with her granddaughter and me, and somehow, I wasn't doing enough to make her feel welcome... Because she didn't get enough rocking time at 22h...

Indeed Notwendy, it is impossible to please them. It is very hard to meet their expectations.

[Mommydoc]

it is impossible to please them. It is very hard to meet their expectations.

I am feeling a bit guilty ( and delighted at same time) to observe my sister turn her demands from me to the Executive Director of my mom’s facility. She will not be successful in meeting her demands, but it is mildly fun to watch it unfold. The director is ethical and also has great boundaries , so I am hoping to stand by and learn. I am very clear that my role is to be painfully passive and not rescue either of them.

[Notwendy]

I think it's good that you are staying out of it. Keep in mind that the director has delt with upset and difficult family members. Since they are not related, the director is less likely to take it personally.

My mother can be difficult with her helpers and health care providers. I try to keep in mind that they can remain more objective with her.

Sit back, make some popcorn