BPD and alcohol

[T0M]

Hello all,

It has been a few times now that my GF with BPD had a few drinks (to much).
I'm now in a stage that I can predict the outcome. She gets angry at me for now reason at all, saying she wants to leave, and if I do not drive her home, she will walk home (no matter how far away we are from home).

She never does leave, I also learned that from experience.
And this is also the only moment in which she seem to be unaware that her behavior is also visible to others.

O yeah, in the stage between a few drinks and a few drinks to much, she also gets very flirty. If I say anything about it, scenario 1 happens - she wants to leave.

Does this resonate?

Tom

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[alterK]

Substance abuse is common among people with BPD. If your GF often drinks to the point where she behaves badly, you have to ask yourself the difficult question of whether she might be an alcoholic.

An alcoholic isn't necessarily a person who is drunk all the time, or even who drinks every day. They can be someone who routinely relies on alcohol to get through social situations, or who commonly drinks to the point of behaving badly.

We don't diagnose on these forums, but this may be something you need to consider. You might try thinking about your GF's behavior before you knew her.

[PeteWitsend]

Hello all,

It has been a few times now that my GF with BPD had a few drinks (to much).
I'm now in a stage that I can predict the outcome. She gets angry at me for now reason at all, saying she wants to leave, and if I do not drive her home, she will walk home (no matter how far away we are from home).

She never does leave, I also learned that from experience.
And this is also the only moment in which she seem to be unaware that her behavior is also visible to others.

O yeah, in the stage between a few drinks and a few drinks to much, she also gets very flirty. If I say anything about it, scenario 1 happens - she wants to leave.

Does this resonate?

Tom

A bit.  near the end of my marriage, every date night ended in a fight.  

Typically, it would go like this: we'd be out, drinking (moderately) at a concert, bar, restaurant, etc., and I'd be enjoying myself, and everything seemed fine

Then, like a switch would get flipped, and all the sudden BPDxw would snap at me, and then the situation would turn very hostile.

Prior to marriage, (in wilder times) she got flirty a couple times with others.  Or if not flirty, would ignore me and talk to other guys.  When she saw I would just react in kind and talk to other girls, she quickly stopped doing that.  

I wouldn't recommend that necessarily, as it seems like a big escalation.  Plus with everyone out drinking, that kind of response raised the chances of me getting in a fist fight with some other guy.  But she'd push me to places where I really didn't care anymore.  I think that spooked her a bit, and she stopped using flirting in public as an technique.  at least in front of me.  who knows how she acted on her own time? 

her worst BPD - behaviors weren't substance abuse; more around creating pointless domestic conflict

[PeteWitsend]

My theory of what's going:


 the alcohol reduces inhibitions, right?

and If you've ever enjoyed the night life regularly, you know the thrill of meeting new people, possibly even the love of your life, when you go out.  and with everyone intoxicated, passions are aroused.  Most nights probably end in disappointment, and wasted money.  But the possibilities are what keep you going.

AND THEN you get in a committed relationship, and some of that is "closed" to you now.  But everyone - men or women - remember it & still miss it to some degree.  But as an a mature adult, you can control yourself & remind yourself WHY you got into a committed relationship, and what you want, and manage your behavior and expectations accordingly.

Then, you go out as a couple & have a few drinks.  And pwBPD, with their poor impulse control, can't manage the swirl of emotions they feel being out-and-about, and a bit (or a lot) drunk and so they lash out at the person they feel is "holding them back."

[T0M]

Substance abuse is common among people with BPD. If your GF often drinks to the point where she behaves badly, you have to ask yourself the difficult question of whether she might be an alcoholic.

An alcoholic isn't necessarily a person who is drunk all the time, or even who drinks every day. They can be someone who routinely relies on alcohol to get through social situations, or who commonly drinks to the point of behaving badly.

We don't diagnose on these forums, but this may be something you need to consider. You might try thinking about your GF's behavior before you knew her.

Thanks for the reply!
I do not think she is an alcoholic.
She doesn't drink that often, but when she does, it goes as described in previous post.

[T0M]

A bit.  near the end of my marriage, every date night ended in a fight.  

Typically, it would go like this: we'd be out, drinking (moderately) at a concert, bar, restaurant, etc., and I'd be enjoying myself, and everything seemed fine

Then, like a switch would get flipped, and all the sudden BPDxw would snap at me, and then the situation would turn very hostile.

Prior to marriage, (in wilder times) she got flirty a couple times with others.  Or if not flirty, would ignore me and talk to other guys.  When she saw I would just react in kind and talk to other girls, she quickly stopped doing that.  

I wouldn't recommend that necessarily, as it seems like a big escalation.  Plus with everyone out drinking, that kind of response raised the chances of me getting in a fist fight with some other guy.  But she'd push me to places where I really didn't care anymore.  I think that spooked her a bit, and she stopped using flirting in public as an technique.  at least in front of me.  who knows how she acted on her own time? 

her worst BPD - behaviors weren't substance abuse; more around creating pointless domestic conflict

Exactly my situation.
We are in the 'wilder times' lets say. And she starts flirting a lot. Most of the time with one of my friends. If I say anything about it, she gets very mad and wants to leave.
If no available flirting material is ad hand, she indeed can shift moods in an instant. Saying things that are not even remotely correct.

[T0M]

My theory of what's going:


 the alcohol reduces inhibitions, right?

and If you've ever enjoyed the night life regularly, you know the thrill of meeting new people, possibly even the love of your life, when you go out.  and with everyone intoxicated, passions are aroused.  Most nights probably end in disappointment, and wasted money.  But the possibilities are what keep you going.

AND THEN you get in a committed relationship, and some of that is "closed" to you now.  But everyone - men or women - remember it & still miss it to some degree.  But as an a mature adult, you can control yourself & remind yourself WHY you got into a committed relationship, and what you want, and manage your behavior and expectations accordingly.

Then, you go out as a couple & have a few drinks.  And pwBPD, with their poor impulse control, can't manage the swirl of emotions they feel being out-and-about, and a bit (or a lot) drunk and so they lash out at the person they feel is "holding them back."

Sounds like a possible theory. Like a parent saying to a kid it needs to stop eating candy.

[Brooklyn1974]

Sounds like my Bpd-wife who is an alcoholic.  Going out I was walking on eggshells waiting for the hammer to strike.  Extremely flirty with other guys and IMO the worst thing you could do to them while they are out drinking is try to get them to stop drinking, they either throw a tantrum like a child or try to embarrass you in some way. 

Mine goes to AA now and sober 2.5 years however the BPD has manifested itself to having men attracted to her from those AA meetings.  I realize it will never end.  IMO alcohol makes them very volatile especially if they painted you black but it's their underlying condition (BPD) that causes them to do the things they do.  Been married almost 20 years to her.  I hope the best for you.

[waverider]

Flirting is a desire for validation. pwBPD are validation junkies and too much is never enough. Alcohol reduces inhibitions so not only does it block other issues in her head it creates validation, by way of flirtations, to reinforces it.

It takes responsibility and obligation to back away from these temptations, and sadly these are not great motivation characteristics of pwBPD.

Many Disordered people have addictive personalities, and alcohol is just one of the drugs, but unlike traditional alcoholics, they can suddenly stop and switch to another, say prescription pills, or some other "essential" toxic behaviour which is done to extreme. Its like an addiction to addictive behaviour as a process, rather than the product itself. It is a process they will stop when they get the impulse, not when anyone wants them to, or on behalf of anyone else. Any attempt to interfere will create an aggressive kick back

[TheBatHammer]

Flirting is a desire for validation. pwBPD are validation junkies and too much is never enough. Alcohol reduces inhibitions so not only does it block other issues in her head it creates validation, by way of flirtations, to reinforces it.

It takes responsibility and obligation to back away from these temptations, and sadly these are not great motivation characteristics of pwBPD.

Many Disordered people have addictive personalities, and alcohol is just one of the drugs, but unlike traditional alcoholics, they can suddenly stop and switch to another, say prescription pills, or some other "essential" toxic behaviour which is done to extreme. Its like an addiction to addictive behaviour as a process, rather than the product itself. It is a process they will stop when they get the impulse, not when anyone wants them to, or on behalf of anyone else. Any attempt to interfere will create an aggressive kick back

This is the first time I’ve heard it referred to as an addiction to a toxic process, but that is a really good insight. That’s exactly what it manifests as.

[waverider]

This is the first time I’ve heard it referred to as an addiction to a toxic process, but that is a really good insight. That’s exactly what it manifests as.

We often get distracted dealing with the issue at hand. But that is not the underlying issue. The issue at hand is just an expression of a deeper underlying faulty thinking process. Eliminate the issue, and there will be another, and then another. Drama and issues give a disordered person their identity. Take away their world of drama and you are stripping them of their place in life, so they will create another drama.

Think of the drowning swimmer who likes being saved by the lifeguards, then runs back in and gets saved again, and again. They like the process of being saved as opposed to the need to be saved. Without the drama they are nobody.

Hence constantly saving them and fixing their problems achieves nothing other than enabling the process. The rescuer eventually gets burnt out

[2020]

unlike traditional alcoholics, they can suddenly stop and switch to another, say prescription pills, or some other "essential" toxic behaviour which is done to extreme.

I can certainly see them switching to other behaviours, but ceasing alcohol consumption suddenly can be fatal. My partner, or ex partner now(?) has been drinking since the age of 13. I have rarely seen a single day in 14 years where she has been sober. Those days are usually in bed with a huge hangover. If she were to stop, she would need to book into the hospital up the road and embark on a medically supervised detox.

From what I gather when talking to her, she drinks to deal with anxiety and depression. She drinks because she is lonely and to deal with her childhood trauma. The problem is, the more she drinks, the more she rages. I have said to her that I enjoy coffee with her in the morning, but around midday when she starts drinking, I know the day will go to   ! On the day of her arrest and disappearance 28 days ago, I mentioned again my concern for her health with her extreme drinking. Her answer was, “I’ll address it”. I have heard nothing from her since. I miss her but I am so glad I am not around her alcoholism. Alcohol and bpd equals hell, in my opinion.

[TheBatHammer]

We often get distracted dealing with the issue at hand. But that is not the underlying issue. The issue at hand is just an expression of a deeper underlying faulty thinking process. Eliminate the issue, and there will be another, and then another. Drama and issues give a disordered person their identity. Take away their world of drama and you are stripping them of their place in life, so they will create another drama.

Think of the drowning swimmer who likes being saved by the lifeguards, then runs back in and gets saved again, and again. They like the process of being saved as opposed to the need to be saved. Without the drama they are nobody.

Hence constantly saving them and fixing their problems achieves nothing other than enabling the process. The rescuer eventually gets burnt out

Drama and issues being their “need” to be a victim?

[waverider]

Drama and issues being their “need” to be a victim?

Its all linking into a need for validation and blame shifting, and the universe revolving around the gratification of their needs. The victim mode draws in rescuers and reassurances, and often diverts accountability and perceived criticism. I guess you could call it proactive self defence (in their minds anyway). Though it ultimately aggravates anyone who spends enough time around them. Leading to actual abandonment and reinforcing victimhood etc and around it goes.

Its all very circular and you cant get them out of it, so the best you can do is not hop on the drama train with them, and dont stand on the tracks trying to stop it, or you will get run over.

[Suassíos]

I have a theory that there could be a link with alcohol that is not related to alcohol addiction, but to dissociation.

I noticed that my husband with diagnosed BPD who did not have an alcohol dependency, would often be at his worst after drinking even just one or two drinks and sometimes I would not notice until the next day, so it was not directly the alcohol but maybe something triggered by alcohol exposure.

He definitely dissociates and he describes dissociative symptoms from a very young age. Dissociation, spacing out, making statements or behaving in a way that is not linked to what’s going on can happen after a drink.  I get this, I enjoy a glass of wine sometimes and part of the reason is it can distract me from life’s stresses. I figured alcohol was likely stimulating dissociative pathways that are well developed in him due to his childhood history, and easy for him to fall into at the slightest stimulus, due to his current acute illness.  When I proposed cutting out alcohol to test this theory, , there was an initial angry denial and accusations that I am controlling, but when I put the argument forward, and reinforced that it’s a suggestion and something he would need to be willing and interested in trying himself, he did quit drinking entirely. About 8 weeks ago:

There are other things going eg therapy so it’s not an independent change. And there still are BPD symptoms, so it wasn’t an overnight miracle!

But I can see there is a reduction in symptoms and when he is well he seems much more engaged than he has been in many years. There definitely is a reduction in dissociation, particularly the sort of general disengagement in day to day conversations and interactions. The fog is lifting. Again it might be a coincidence. But for me I’m glad he cut out alcohol.

[Wrongturn1]

I'll weigh in with a success story in progress (my first post in quite a while too).  Over the past 5 years or longer, my uBPDw would binge drink 5 to 7 nights per week, and she became progressively more and more belligerent with the kids and me (and herself) after several drinks.  I would bring it up with her periodically that her drinking was unhealthy and that I wanted the best for her long term and that it would be a good idea to cut back - and she took offense to this and didn't want to hear it.

However, in February of 2022 after several months of counseling for her "anxiety", she decided that she was ready to stop drinking.  And she did stop and hasn't had a drink since then.  She also started exercising again and has been drastically more emotionally regulated these past few months.  The state of our relationship now is healthier than it has been in many years, and her interactions with our children (ages 18 and 14) have become significantly more positive.  She still has the BPD tendencies, so not all problems are resolved, but everything feels a lot easier when she is not drinking.

I am enjoying these moments the best I can, although honestly I still have some lingering anxiety that the other shoe will drop - that she will start drinking again - and she will end up right back in the same place she was before.  But I'm trying to live in the moment and make the best of every day. 

[Cat Familiar]

Like you, Wrongturn, I’m wondering how long my husband’s abstinence will last.

He had been drinking heavily for years. What I consider heavily is a few mixed drinks and a bottle of wine over a few hours. Sometimes he’d drink far more than that. I never really knew the amount of his consumption because he’d hide the empty bottles in his studio. He claimed he needed to drink wine to be able to get to sleep.

In addition, his doctor had prescribed him sleeping pills and pain meds, so I decided to ask her if she knew about his alcohol abuse. I had done the same with his previous doctor, but this one decided she needed to confront him about it, and she did…the day after Valentine’s Day.

It was a super ugly mess. You can imagine how he felt betrayed by me, thinking I’d ruined his relationship with his doctor, that he could never set foot in her practice again, etc.

But he quit drinking. Cold turkey.

And he started his Buddhism practice up again with a vengeance. I support that as a good alternative. Use a healthy addiction to replace an unhealthy one.

But still…I’m kind of blown away that he could just…stop.

I didn’t drink coffee the day before yesterday because I had to do a medical test and was I ever cranky!

[Wrongturn1]

But he quit drinking. Cold turkey.
...
But still…I’m kind of blown away that he could just…stop.

That is impressive that he could just stop with no side effects!  When my uBPDw quit, she seemed to have some issues with feeling itchy/scratching and maybe a minor hallucination where she swears she saw me texting some unknown person while sitting on the couch next to her.  But that all resolved within the span of a few weeks.

[PeteWitsend]

Its all linking into a need for validation and blame shifting, and the universe revolving around the gratification of their needs. The victim mode draws in rescuers and reassurances, and often diverts accountability and perceived criticism. I guess you could call it proactive self defence (in their minds anyway). Though it ultimately aggravates anyone who spends enough time around them. Leading to actual abandonment and reinforcing victimhood etc and around it goes.

Its all very circular and you cant get them out of it, so the best you can do is not hop on the drama train with them, and dont stand on the tracks trying to stop it, or you will get run over.

This tracks with how BPDxw would behave near the end of our relationship, when other people were around (whether or not we were drinking): she would make a scene. Throwing my sweater at me, throwing a drink, screaming at me, etc.

I sensed she WANTED third-party attention, but in every event, everyone around would look shocked and quietly move away and avoid us. 

No sane person wants to get involved in other people's drama!