Why do I care? Why do I ruminate?

[livednlearned]

My life has been uncharacteristically busy the last couple of weeks and emotionally I was focused on big changes.

I didn't think about SD25 or my FOO as much. They both require a lot of strategizing and I spend a lot of time scanning the perimeter for potential threats.

You would think that kind of vigilance or preoccupation would be exhausting but if I'm honest, it's more like giving in to an OCD urge. 

FOO is a 4 hour drive away. SD25 is 3000 miles away. Contact is limited and the drama is low.

Is it rumination? Why do I think about them when I don't have to? My life is really good right now, the best it's ever been. If it's rumination, what is that about?

I do many things that take my mind off them but I can't shake this feeling that it's a problem how much time I spend focused on interpreting their actions and behaviors, even when there's no imminent threat.

[Imatter33]

I still can ruminate and I’m Nc.
I lost a lot of familial connection and it still feels unbelievably odd. Like…. What are they doing? How are they doing? I really have minimal information on those questions. Strange!


I once read somewhere… that we as humans place a great deal of identity in our problems. “Our story”
I personally thought yea, that makes sense. We ruminate bc we want to feel like our old self at times. We are used to it.

So  for me, rumination comes at times when I’m not believing how far jve come or how different life is right now. Pure habit.

I don’t want to be “identified by my problems” as i read,  so I have made intentional choices to seek Faith, and focus on my good relationships.

[GaGrl]

I go through periods of ruminating about our family situation also. I think it's because it's so out of my control and yet affects a number of people I love.

H's ex is getting worse and worse, really falling further into a state of paranoia. The three adult children are all affected, but the daughter living near her takes the brunt of the behaviors.

[WalkbyFaith]

I went NC just last week, and my uBPD mother (and whether she sent me a message while I was sleeping) is still one of my first thoughts when I wake up every morning, and think of my FOO frequently through the day.

I have to believe that eventually this will stop, but I don't know how long it will take.

[zachira]

My personal belief about rumination: The core of our self esteem comes from how we are treated by our family from the time we are born. The first years are the most important for having a strong foundation of self esteem. Other experiences can help with the self esteem, yet there will always be sorrow, pain, and regret about not being loved by the people who were supposed to care about us. Traumatic experiences in which there is extreme abuse, can also be so severely wounding that at times, we will be triggered and ruminate. The rumination can be especially severe right after we go low or no contact. It is like we now are safe to feel our feelings more intensely because we are not in danger. If you have felt in danger for most of your life, it will take a while to feel safe.
Do not worrry about the rumination. Let yourself feel the uncomfortable feelings, and you will feel better at some point though it may take a lot longer that you would like. When I went low contact with my family last year, it took several months before I stopped feeling depressed and obsessed about all the lifelong abuse I had endured by several family members. I now feel great most of the time, though I don't believe I will ever be rumination free, as the trauma and rejection I have suffered from being a scapegoat since birth are a lifelong sorrow.  I have often heard that you have to feel your painful feelings before you can feel joy. My abusive family members never look happy. It is hard to feel all the pain, and we are here to listen and support you. Keep up the good work of facing your feelings, and you will feel better, even though the grief you feel is likely to be triggered from time to time, though less as time goes on, as long as you do not repress your feelings and allow yourself to process the feelings. Is it possible you are avoiding your feelings by looking for explanations for what happened and you keep thinking about the same stories over and over again? Are you able to sit quietly and name the feelings that are coming up?

[Turkish]

Aside from addressing your hurt, might it be because you're searching for a way to fix things? Fixer or Rescuer, same difference.

[Methuen]

Rumination.  What I can say in my experience is that I’m doing a lot less of it now that I have a lot less contact, and have taken back my life and space, and let my mother take full responsibility for her decisions.

She used to rent space in my head all day and night.  It was crazy and I was truly miserable, frustrated and feeling helpless.

Apart from less contact, other things that have helped me to ruminate less are being active and busy (distracted), detaching emotionally (a big one), self care, and strengthening my mindfulness.  Rumination usually involves either thinking about past events, or anticipating future problems, neither of which fulfills being present in the moment. The trick for me is to catch myself ruminating, and then take a mindful moment and smell the roses or listen to the birds.  Do a meditation or say a prayer?  Do the 4 square breathing to reunite mind and body? Whatever works to bring oneself back to the present, rather than the past or future. It takes some effort at first, but boy does it ever work, and It feels so much better.  I think a good run or kickbo or play with the dog would work too.  Anything but ruminate.  Time to break that neural network.

Let them sort their own issues?  Their problem isn’t your responsibility right? In my case I had to stop trying to fix my mom.  I had to let go. She isn’t fixable.  When I did that (came out of retirement and went back to work), the ruminating decreased steadily.  Now she’s not doing  well, but she has to figure that out the hard way, with natural consequences. 

I think the two big ones for me have been emotional detachment and mindfulness.

Wishing you peace without rumination. 

[Notwendy]

I am not sure why there's the tendency to ruminate but it's discussed in 12 step groups. Sometimes it's been referred to as "chattering squirrels in our heads".  It's probably our way of feeling safe by solving the issues for ourselves or feeling overly responsible. The recommended approach is to find some diversion, ( in the groups you can call a sponsor or other member to talk it out). I think it's a habit to deal with stress/emotional distress.

Methuen makes a good point about someone else "renting space in your thoughts" and how this can get better when taking time to yourself. Don't blame yourself- it's a common coping mechanism I think.

[livednlearned]

Aside from addressing your hurt, might it be because you're searching for a way to fix things? Fixer or Rescuer, same difference.

It almost feels like practice or role-playing. I think back to scenarios where I ended up in a one-down position, and then I reimagine them with better outcomes because of things I've learned. Not on purpose, it's that I find my mind has wandered there.

Is it possible you are avoiding your feelings by looking for explanations for what happened and you keep thinking about the same stories over and over again? Are you able to sit quietly and name the feelings that are coming up?

It is less about ruminating how people hurt me, I think. I did go through a prolonged phase feeling hurt (kicked off by divorce from n/BPDx and ensuing healing stages) and every now and then it bubbles up again. I try to use those surges as momentum for change.

I struggle to feel anger -- I don't know if it's my disposition or if it's a result of conditioning or both. I consider it a reason for why I stayed in an abusive relationship, not feeling anger as a catalyst for change.

I was in therapy for roughly 10 years and made a lot of progress processing trauma (somatic experiencing therapy) and I notice that I am getting better at feeling in general and anger in particular, but it's still hard to express it directly to someone in the heat of the moment. With my current H, I can feel and express anger in healthy ways. With FOO and SD25, no. 

[livednlearned]

It's probably our way of feeling safe by solving the issues for ourselves or feeling overly responsible...I think it's a habit to deal with stress/emotional distress...it's a common coping mechanism I think.

So, meaning rumination happens because of perceived threats?

[livednlearned]

Anything but ruminate.  Time to break that neural network.

Did you get any sort of satisfaction from ruminating? That is what I'm noticing. But it also seems unhealthy.

Wishing you peace without rumination. 

Thank you Methuen 

[livednlearned]

I went NC just last week

 

my uBPD mother (and whether she sent me a message while I was sleeping) is still one of my first thoughts when I wake up every morning, and think of my FOO frequently through the day.

I have to believe that eventually this will stop, but I don't know how long it will take.

I understand. I was LC, almost NC with my FOO for 7 years and it was essential for me to learn what it meant to feel safe and then apply those lessons once ending the estrangement.I so understand the first thing in the morning preoccupation and frequent thinking throughout the day. Right before falling asleep is also a challenging time.

While many things improved in many ways, including finding a healthy, loving wonderful H (we are both recovered from BPD exes), it also meant grieving the presence of BPD in one of my step daughters (SD25).

A trip we planned in the fall will include SD25. We have rented a house for all of us, including the kids (SS22, SD25, SD28). It is all but certain that it will end up being us plus SD25, the hardest combination. Recently, H announced SD25 has a BF and immediately my brain went into a defensive crouch. "She's going to invite him to stay in the house, H will not know how to say no, I will be trapped."

Setting aside the boundaries piece, which I feel I'm handling somewhere around a C +, it takes me by surprise how much ruminating I do. How something as innocuous as "SD25 has a new BF" winds me up.

[Riv3rW0lf]

For me, rumination now feels like a process. When I lowered contact with my mother and had to clearly state it, I ruminated a lot for many weeks. I feel like I am just getting out of a constant rumination mode... And I think, looking back, that I was fleeing depression. But not exactly fleeing...

Ruminating about past hurts, modifying them or imagining myself talking back to my mother brought up anger. Anger helped in separation from my mother and decreased the depression and grief. Feeling angry gave me space to be, and because I lack anger (my mother worked hard in extinguishing it from me), it seems  my mind needed the rumination to maintain anger and continue the separation... Because I keep reverting back to shame and guilt... Then I ruminate, I feel angry and I gain space... A cycle of separation?  I don't know if it was healthy, and I did actively try to be in the present more. But I do think rumination was a way for my mind to escape depression or maybe even process it via anger.

And I just realized yesterday that I don't think as much about her as I used to. I don't check if she texts me either, not as much anyway, and not with the same apprehension or emotional connection.

I think, for me, rumination was a process of separation. And now that I feel more separated, I don't ruminate as much and I can practice mindfulness... Which was impossible a couple weeks back...  It seems a bit easier now.

[livednlearned]

rumination now feels like a process.

This made me realize something.

My divorce from n/BPDx was over 10 years ago. My estrangement with family began during the volatility of my divorce (lasted 4 years).

There was a period of quiet before I discovered issues with SD25 were BPD.

It may be that the process of healing was complicated by the introduction of another person with BPD.

Sometimes I feel I am on high alert for BPD behaviors simply because from my experience it has been a near constant in family relationships.  

I may be susceptible to ongoing rumination because it seems unavoidable, even if it is dealt with in one relationship, there is another happening elsewhere, and then new ones emerging. That may be how my nervous system experiences things, as in: it's proven that people will have BPD behaviors, be on guard?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I was just thinking that rumination is pretty much the only defense we had left as children to regulate ourselves.. parents didn't listen, extinguished our anger, shamed us every time we tried to justify, to be ourselves...

Left alone, hurt children will cry. No one answered the cry. No point in crying anymore. They will hurt you if you show anger. What is left? Ruminating quietly... Dreaming of an alternate life where we could speak up. Practicing ...

If borderline behaviors led to us ruminating as children, then it is the only defense we built to survive. It stands to reason that we would keep doing it as adults when facing the same borderline behaviors in others.

[Methuen]

A trip we planned in the fall will include SD25. We have rented a house for all of us, including the kids (SS22, SD25, SD28). It is all but certain that it will end up being us plus SD25, the hardest combination. Recently, H announced SD25 has a BF and immediately my brain went into a defensive crouch. "She's going to invite him to stay in the house, H will not know how to say no, I will be trapped."

Out of curiousity, do you and H plan either trips or special outings for just the two of you?  Without SD25?  Or does she include herself in everything and H can't say to her: "no - this is just a trip for LnL and myself to have some alone time".  

It just seems like a re-occuring theme that you find yourself trapped with her when with your H.

I get it that SS22 and SD28 are invited too.  But is there a way to get a commitment from them before the invite goes out to the trio of kids that they are invited?

Or better yet, can your H go on a trip with you, without kids?

Do you feel trapped?

Did you get any sort of satisfaction from ruminating? That is what I'm noticing. But it also seems unhealthy.

No I did not.  For me, the ruminating was an endless loop of negative energy and bottled up horribleness.  I would get trapped in the cycle of thinking how could she have treated me like that today when I did XYZ for her recently?  For example, my mom loves perogies.  So I invited her to my house to "help" make some for her.  She didn't do anything.  She sat on a chair and talked about herself the whole time.  I made her about 6 dozen perogies for her freezer.  She took them home, and invited us to come see her garden the next day.  When we went there the next day, she had already had her gardener dig out all the azalea plants we had given her (she had asked for them from us because we were having a hard time finding time to actually plant them in our garden after buying them) and they were in big plastic bags in the garbage can.  She had asked us earlier if we wanted them back, and we said "yes please" because now that we were retired, we had more time to finish our landscaping.  She knew how much we wanted them.  Azaleas are my favourite.

I was beside myself.  How could someone who had been gifted 6 dozen perogies by a daughter who had been genuinely trying to do something nice, turn around and throw out the shrubs that had been ours to begin with, and which she had promised to return to us?  She never apologised, or said a mistake had happened, or even that she had forgotten.  She just pretended it never happened.

That's the kind of thing I ruminate over.  

The ruminating is a true waste of time, because there is no way to make sense of that kind of behavior.  It's completely irrational.

I used to ruminate to try to make sense of what happened.  Also because I was indignant and angry and hurt at the clear meanness of her behavior, which seemed intentional "to teach me a lesson".

I believe rumination is a poor use of time and energy.  It sucked the happiness out of me.

I now put my time and energy to other people and places, and am letting my mother deal with her own issues her way.  She is burning out friends and acquaintances to do all the things for her that she can't do herself.  Some of them have stopped coming to help.  So now she's calling on people she hardly knows.  She was offered and refused assisted living almost 3 years ago.

I don't really ruminate any more because I just don't participate in her drama any more, therefore there is less chaos for me to process or ruminate over.

Rumination is negative energy as far as I'm concerned, and nothing positive ever came from my ruminating because my mother wasn't going to change.  The only thing I could change was me.  It's still a work in progress, but I believe I have come a long way.

LnL, I get the sense that your ruminating is giving you some satisfaction, since you mention you are noticing it, but seem concerned it's unhealthy.  Am I interpreting that correctly?  If so, can you put into words what satisfaction you are getting from it?  It makes sense that if you are getting some sort of satisfaction, it would be difficult to stop.

[Turkish]

Left alone, hurt children will cry. No one answered the cry. No point in crying anymore. They will hurt you if you show anger. What is left? Ruminating quietly...

Oh wow, that was so me as a child (kind of still is). My mom adopted me at 2.4. When I was 3, she took me to a garage sale. I had fallen and skinned myself to bleeding. She only noticed when she saw me on the edge of the lawn, back turned to everybody, crying softly to myself. Of course later came the *smack* "if you act like you're going to get hit, then you will be!" And such...

[Notwendy]

So, meaning rumination happens because of perceived threats?

I am not sure exactly why we do it,  but it's a common topic in 12 step groups. The discussion brings up that rumination is either going over the past and thinking what we could have done differently and/or worrying about something in the future.

Either one involves not being in the present, as well as some fear. The suggestions are to work at being in the present- the here and now. The past is the past, and worrying about the future- that's also fear and not being in the present.

One thing I noticed that I do is "tune out"  and spend time in my own thoughts. I think that's a defense mechanism I had growing up to cope with the issues at home. It might be that ruminating does the same thing- if one is thinking about past or future, they have tuned out the present.

[zachira]

When we have caregivers who cannot be present with us, who ignore our feelings, do not celebrate us for who we are, we learn to tune out the present. The best advice my therapist ever gave me on how to not take on the feelings of an abuser dumping their dislike of themselves onto me was to focus on how I was feeling inside. Being present can be excrutiatingly painful, because of all the past feelings that have piled up. I learned to be present by doing EMDR therapy. The therapist was giving me one hour sessions and I was seriously disassociated for days after. She started following the normal protocol of one and half hour sessions, and having me put back together before I left. Do not underestimate how difficult it is to get away from feeling badly, when you have been programmed by caregivers to ignore your feelings and take on their unwanted feelings. I understand ruminating to be going over and over painful events, with no real relief. I find participating on PSI has really helped me to not ruminate as much, as the members get it here, support and learn from each other.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Other thing I noticed is that rumination is contradictory sometimes...

While rumination keeps us depressed or angry, it also keeps us from actually recognizing and validating the emotions we are going through in the present.

For me, rumination happens when I am actively fleeing depression. As I said earlier, it brings up anger. This can be useful sometimes, because anger keeps me "in action". But maybe what I really need to do, is accept and process my depression.

Is there a specific emotion you tend to run away from?

[HappyChappy]

livednlearned Rumination is a trait of CPTSD.  Sometimes linked to adhd or ASD or high iq. Are you trying to solve an unsolvable problem ? Sending you hugs  

[I Am Redeemed]

For me, when I specifically am ruminating about the past and imagining different responses from myself in situations where I was in a "one down" position, it's tied to a few things:
1) feeling that my original response was "not good enough", i.e. "I should have..."
2) unresolved feelings about those incidents (anger, usually, at being mistreated which is a healthy emotion and one that I am scared of)
3) analyzing the event and trying to connect it to current anxiety or fears
4) trying to use the past and what I would do differently in order to prepare for a different response should I experience similar events in the future.
5) feeling powerless in current sitions or future situations, so I go back to the past and imagine how I could have taken my power back.

As Happy Chappy said, it's a symptom of my Cptsd.

[livednlearned]

Wow. I'm so touched at all of your responses. I have been ruminating about ruminating for a while now   it genuinely moved me to receive so much understanding and insight about why I do this and wish I had shared it sooner. I self invalidate these things.  

Rumination is a trait of CPTSD.  Sometimes linked to adhd or ASD or high iq. Are you trying to solve an unsolvable problem ? Sending you hugs  

I'm not sure I know what you mean by unsolvable problem? If I'm understanding what others have written, it seems I may have learned to ruminate as an attempt to self-soothe in situations where I feel one-downed and trapped.

rumination is either going over the past and thinking what we could have done differently and/or worrying about something in the future...The suggestions are to work at being in the present- the here and now...if one is thinking about past or future, they have tuned out the present.

Do you think being controlling is connected to this? I ruminate more about situations I anticipate. Second to that are situations where I let my guard down with my golden child dad or uBPD brother. I come home and reflect on how to avoid those situations or handle them better.

I was just thinking that rumination is pretty much the only defense we had left as children to regulate ourselves...It stands to reason that we would keep doing it as adults when facing the same borderline behaviors in others.

Thank you for this, Riv3rW0lf. I didn't think about how far back this goes. Like many people here, I was in survival mode most of my childhood and in particular my teens. It has been something of a shock to my system -- especially with uBPD SD25 -- to find myself back on yet another BPD merry-go-round. Yet, while there are similarities, they are key differences. I guess the rumination is a symbol of that.

do you and H plan either trips or special outings for just the two of you?  Without SD25?  Or does she include herself in everything and H can't say to her. It just seems like a re-occuring theme that you find yourself trapped with her when with your H.

I hadn't thought about the word trapped, but yes. That's how I feel. Yet there is no real trap, not like being a kid and having no means to escape. Even in my marriage to n/BPDx I was able to escape, something I probably underestimate for how it contributed to emotional growth and demonstrating I could escape abuse.  

can your H go on a trip with you, without kids? Do you feel trapped?

Our kids are adults and SD25 lives 3000 miles away so we go away together without her/them all the time. SD25 lived with us on and off for years and while she is not abusive like uBPD brother and n/BPDx, she is covertly aggressive and if I'm to be honest, yes, I feel trapped in the sense she is part of my life forever. In moments of frustration, H has expressed this feeling, too.

I get the sense that your ruminating is giving you some satisfaction, since you mention you are noticing it, but seem concerned it's unhealthy.  Am I interpreting that correctly?  If so, can you put into words what satisfaction you are getting from it?  It makes sense that if you are getting some sort of satisfaction, it would be difficult to stop.

It gives me a feeling of control, which is a double-edged sword. Like others have said, it prevents me from being in the present. Yet the control gives me a (false?) sense of safety.

This is an embarrassing example ... for months, right as I was falling asleep I would find my mind wandering to scenarios with SD25 where I am neutralizing her. Neutralizing is the best word I can think of. Part of me would think, Here we go again with SD25 right before falling asleep. And then it started to feel almost like self-soothing, like I would conjure these scenarios in order to fall asleep.

What is odd is that I continue to ruminate about SD25 even though she is not living with us, I never talk to her, and H is much better at setting boundaries with her, which is a miracle given what it was like when we first all lived together. But even things are relatively handled, I still find myself ruminating. It's the kind that's more focused on handling future scenarios versus thinking about how I should have handled things. It does have a proactive feel to it but you'd think SD25 lived nearby given the degree of vigilance I feel.

When we have caregivers who cannot be present with us, who ignore our feelings, do not celebrate us for who we are, we learn to tune out the present.

That is fascinating. I had never thought of it that way before. Physically, I equate ruminating with an almost chronic habit I have of pushing my tongue so hard against the back of my bottom teeth that my jaw is clenched to the point of discomfort. Only when I'm present do I seem to stop.

Is there a specific emotion you tend to run away from?

Definitely anger. It is very hard for me to get in touch with anger.

when I specifically am ruminating about the past and imagining different responses from myself in situations where I was in a "one down" position, it's tied to a few things:
1) feeling that my original response was "not good enough", i.e. "I should have..."
2) unresolved feelings about those incidents (anger, usually, at being mistreated which is a healthy emotion and one that I am scared of)
3) analyzing the event and trying to connect it to current anxiety or fears
4) trying to use the past and what I would do differently in order to prepare for a different response should I experience similar events in the future.
5) feeling powerless in current sitions or future situations, so I go back to the past and imagine how I could have taken my power back.

This pretty much summarizes what rumination is about for me, thank you for teasing out the nuances, IAR.

I would like to be able to interact with abusers in the moment in skilled ways and I am definitely becoming more skilled and handle these scenarios in healthier ways. I've done a lot of somatic experiencing therapy and other body-based healing that has been profoundly helpful.

I never thought of CPTSD for myself. I suppose I always equated a dx with the inability to function in some way. While it may be true that childhood trauma prevents me from being in the moment, it also seems true that many people, trauma or not, struggle to be in the moment.

Sometimes I feel so weary when it comes to sorting out what parts are genuinely me, separate from trauma, and what parts are legacies of trauma that have become part of me, and that need fixing. I genuinely grew tired of talk therapy. Somatic experiencing therapy is where healing seemed to accelerate for me.

I'm trying to think of the rumination more like, Well hello there old friend, you're retired, remember? No need to punch in anymore, this shift is covered.

As opposed to, "This is a sign that the wheels aren't bolted on properly." I would like to think that so what if there's a wobble. We're still rolling.

But the truth is that I want to let it go. I would like to get my black belt 

[Methuen]

I hadn't thought about the word trapped, but yes. That's how I feel. Yet there is no real trap, not like being a kid and having no means to escape. Even in my marriage to n/BPDx I was able to escape, something I probably underestimate for how it contributed to emotional growth and demonstrating I could escape abuse.

I'm not sure here, but it sounds like what you are describing is the ability to escape physically.  But feeling trapped doesn't have to be just  feeling trapped physically.  I think many of us have also experienced feeling emotionally trapped by the relationship or situation. You mention that you feel trapped with SD25 because she will always be in your life.  True.  But this is where boundaries can be helpful.  I think you said your H actually had pretty good boundaries with her.  How are your boundaries with her LnL?  I had to learn to put boundaries in with my uBPD mom of 86 years.  I was truly terrified of her - amygdula in chronic survival mode.  My T verbally forbade me from seeing her at one point.  Boy did mom push back when I eventually set boundaries for myself.  The good thing is, I don't feel trapped any more.  And she's had to figure out how to survive on her own without having me at her beck and call 24/7.  Boundaries have released me from feeling trapped.  Having to implement them was a horrible process, but the saying "it has to get worse before it can get better" fit for my situation.  It is definitely better - for now - as long as I can stay strong and stick to my boundaries.

Regardless, the fact that you feel trapped somehow, by SD25, is a symptom that something is really off.  So the next thing is, what needs to change to alleviate this feeling of being trapped?

Can you think of things you can do?  

You mention that you think you ruminate because it gives you a sense of control.  This is fascinating for me.  I've always overthought everything, and spent my entire adult life having a Plan A-B-C-D for everything with the goal of avoiding a potential problem or crisis.  That's how I tried to control things, but I've never quite thought of that as ruminating.  Not sure if that's the kind of thing you are talking about.  My ruminating is more of a negative feedback loop.  My pwBPD (mom) says/does or decides something completely irrational which affects me in a demanding (or obligating way) or an incredibly hurtful way etc., and I just get stuck thinking the same negative thoughts and replaying the whole insane situation over and over and over and over and over again, without finding an exit, because quite honestly there simply isn't an explanation for the behavior of someone who has a constant need to create chaos (especially with their loved ones).  For me, this is what HappyChappy was referring to when he referred to trying to solve an insolvable problem.  When I ruminate I'm trying to make sense of something she did that is insensible.  It's insolvable.  So is she.  My mom is insolvable.  My ruminating allows me to wallow in my indignation, frustration anger.  I can get myself all worked up when I am ruminating.  Nothing is actually accomplished by it - I just get more frustrated and upset.  I tried my whole life to be the perfect daughter and support and help her, and figured out at 58-60 that she couldn't be helped and I had probably misdirected my time and energy.  She's a black hole of time and energy sadly.  

Neutralizing eh?  I see some humour in that.  

How about putting the spirit of that thought into action?  What can you change about yourself to neutralize how trapped she makes you feel?

I still find myself ruminating. It's the kind that's more focused on handling future scenarios

This sounds like anxiety (worrying about some future event).  Does that fit?

One of the first golden nuggets I got from my current T was that "thinking about the past leads to depression, and worrying about the future leads to anxiety".  It hit me like Newton's apple.  Then she claimed the antidote to both was to "be in the present".  Say what?  I had to figure out what that meant.  It's been a work in progress for almost 3 years.  "Being in the present" definitely helps. I believe this is what NW was talking about.

Physically, I equate ruminating with an almost chronic habit I have of pushing my tongue so hard against the back of my bottom teeth that my jaw is clenched to the point of discomfort. Only when I'm present do I seem to stop.

Gosh - I do this too.  My dental hygienist commented on it recently because she could see from from the teeth marks on my tongue that I do this.  I clearly have more work to do with "being in the present".  If nothing else, I know I'm not alone with this trait.  Thanks for sharing that detail.  

But the truth is that I want to let it go. I would like to get my black belt

 That'll put you on more equal neutralizing territory.  

[livednlearned]

How are your boundaries with her LnL?

Much, much better, but it takes a lot of circumspection. Hence the ruminating.

My instincts to assert boundaries are not quite there yet. Maybe that is asking too much?

I once had a therapist say that we change unhealthy coping mechanisms for less healthy coping mechanisms. A real inspirational speaker that one.  

The good thing is, I don't feel trapped any more.

I'm wondering if the reason I feel trapped is because there is a merry-go-round of BPD relationships that I seem destined to have in my life. My grandmother was almost certainly BPD, my brother is uBPD, I married a man with n/BPD, and now there is SD25.

A couple times in the last 10 years I wandered into friendships that in retrospect were with clearly pathologic people. I eventually recognize it and get myself out but other people seem to recognize immediately that something is seriously off. I have to touch the stove to know if it's hot.

the fact that you feel trapped somehow, by SD25, is a symptom that something is really off.  So the next thing is, what needs to change to alleviate this feeling of being trapped?

That's the thing. I seem to be ruminating at a time when I'm not trapped. SD25 lives 3000 miles away, I am almost no contact with uBPD brother. I divorced n/BPDx and he has chosen no contact with our S20. Why ruminate now?

Every now and then SD25 becomes an issue when H lacks boundaries but compared to where we were 10 and then 5 years ago and again 2 years ago when we moved, H and I have both made a lot of positive improvements.

I learned to have boundaries with H when she breached his. And I took a giant step out of their dynamic which was very much like what you described as "getting worse before getting better" because H then had to confront the full impact of SD25's behaviors on his own.

It's like I can't stop touching a scar. Like I don't believe it's healed because past history suggests it could open up and start bleeding again.

You mention that you think you ruminate because it gives you a sense of control ... My ruminating is more of a negative feedback loop...My ruminating allows me to wallow in my indignation, frustration anger.

Did you have anyone who would listen to you about your frustration or indignation as a child? Or as an adult?  Or is this something that you do internally.

What can you change about yourself to neutralize how trapped she makes you feel?

I know that I must be more genuine and authentic about what I feel and want, either in the moment or after.

I allowed myself to rent a house with enough rooms that H's three kids could stay with us this fall, knowing it's most likely that it will end up being only SD25. I ruminate a lot about that. Especially because H and I recently made a pact that we will not stay with my parents because of the toll it takes on me, both emotionally and physically. Why does that not apply to SD25?

SD25 recently started dating and past history dictates she will think it's perfectly fine to invite new BF to stay at the house with us even though we've never met. I decided to address it with H in the hopes it would not be a topic of rumination for me. "If SD25 mentions that she wants new BF to join her on the trip, please consult me." Then we talked about solutions if SD25 does suggest it. H agreed it would be awkward to be meeting new BF while also hosting him in a vacation rental.

I guess the point is, I know that once SD25 rolls through H's boundaries, we are in choppy waters. It is better to anticipate and nip it in the bud than try to fix it after the fact.

Fixing it after the fact means managing more distressing emotions.

This sounds like anxiety (worrying about some future event).  Does that fit?

Yes, although I notice I am almost role-playing how to alleviate my anxiety, going over and over past interactions in which I let things slip through, trying to get the phrasing nailed down when those interactions happen again.

Whether it's more accurately rumination or control or anxiety, I'm not sure. It most certainly is not being in the present. Giving it up feels like being asked to surrender to chaos.

[Methuen]

That's the thing. I seem to be ruminating at a time when I'm not trapped. SD25 lives 3000 miles away, I am almost no contact with uBPD brother. I divorced n/BPDx and he has chosen no contact with our S20. Why ruminate now?

Hmm.  This kinda sounds like a learned behavior (started in childhood and carried into adulthood over a lifetime), or, maybe even a habit...?  It takes at least 30 days of "working at it" to break a simple habit.  This is much more complex.  So...

The next question is, since you get some satisfaction from the ruminating, are you ready to let go of doing it, and "break" this learned behavior, and "unlearn it?"

It's not the same, but one of my bad habits is I'm a nail biter.  I'm going to hazard a guess that on this forum I'm probably not the only nail biter.  My mom told me I started when I was 2 and she took my soother away.  She reported to me that she actually suggested I bite my nails as a replacement when she took the soother away because I was so upset.  Go figure.  Sounds like something she would do.  Anyways, over my lifetime, I've quit probably 7 or more times.  It lasts up to a year, and then I start again.  Why?  It brings me relief from stress.  I get a kind of satisfaction from it.  If I wanted to, I could quit today and have nice nails, but I don't really care about that optic since any satisfaction I would get from that is far outweighed by the stress release I get currently. Currently, the benefits of my habit outweigh the costs (or so I think but plenty of people would probably argue I am sadly mistaken).  Perhaps, one day, when my mother passes, it will be easier for me to quit this habit because I simply won't need it to feel better from it any more.

So, my point is, are you ready to give up the ruminating?  Or does the satisfaction it brings you outweigh the costs (like my situation)?

Something learned can be unlearned, if we desire it enough.

Did you have anyone who would listen to you about your frustration or indignation as a child?

No.  I did not.  

Or as an adult?  

Yes, my H.

Or is this something that you do internally.

No, I'm pretty good at verbalizing when something is eating at me.  I'm one of these people that is more likely to find a solution when I hear myself talk about the problem.  Putting it on paper is another way I am able to solve problems.  So, no I'm not an internalizer.  But if I start going in circles or ruminating, my H is quite quick to point it out, and then I distract myself to break the ruminating.  But my ruminating doesn't bring satisfaction, it adds fuel to the fire which results in increased distress.  For me, the trick has been to learn to be in the present.  Mindfulness is not fluff.  It really works.

I know that I must be more genuine and authentic about what I feel and want, either in the moment or after.

Yes, but knowing and doing are quite different.  How does this translate into action for you?

I allowed myself to rent a house with enough rooms that H's three kids could stay with us this fall, knowing it's most likely that it will end up being only SD25. I ruminate a lot about that. Especially because H and I recently made a pact that we will not stay with my parents because of the toll it takes on me, both emotionally and physically. Why does that not apply to SD25?

Well - maybe it should apply to SD25, but you are just beginning to figure that out.  Is that a possibility?  You are right that the relationship with parents and with children/stepchildren is a different type of relationship.  But really, the principle could still be the same.  It's about safe spaces, and surrounding ourselves with people who on balance, add quality to our lives in any multitude of ways, and don't just make emotional withdrawals from our bank.

SD25 recently started dating and past history dictates she will think it's perfectly fine to invite new BF to stay at the house with us even though we've never met. I decided to address it with H in the hopes it would not be a topic of rumination for me.

We did this too.  We had planned a family trip to Hawaii (H and I + 2 adult children who have moved away) and just afterwards D25 and her SO moved in together.  We did not know him (as she lives far away).  We knew it would come up that she would like to invite him.  H and I agreed that an expensive holiday was not the time to "meet and get to know" him.  It would have been a honeymoon for them, and the intent when the 4 of us booked it was to unite for some quality time on a beach (neither of our kids live near us).  It came up more than once.  But we explained our rationale, she accepted it, and the holiday was amazing.  Her BF joined us all once we hit the mainland again, and came back to her hometown with us.  All 4 of us agreed afterwards it was a great holiday.  Of course neither of them is BPD, so the emotional drama never happened, but the boundary was the same.  As long as you and H are on the same page, I think it makes sense that you meet the new SO in a way that is comfortable to you.  If you aren't comfortable with him coming to the rental home, then there is a reason for that, and you and H can set a boundary.  If SD25 doesn't like that and says "if he can't come, she won't come", well...that's her choice.

Whether it's more accurately rumination or control or anxiety, I'm not sure. It most certainly is not being in the present. Giving it up feels like being asked to surrender to chaos.

Interesting.  Why chaos?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Whether it's more accurately rumination or control or anxiety, I'm not sure. It most certainly is not being in the present. Giving it up feels like being asked to surrender to chaos.

Just wanted to check in and say that this resonates with me a lot.

This is what I meant by : fleeing what is happening inside, fleeing the emotions to hide into our head.

I flee depression when I ruminate, which brings on anger. Feeling anger by ruminating, instead of depression, keeps me active and keeps me from having to live the emotion I fear so much. I fear the sadness, because I remember what it did to my mother when she had her depressive phases, staying in bed all day, everyday. I remember my own hurt and suicidal thoughts, and I just don't want to go back there again. So the second I start feeling depressed and sadness, I often start ruminating...That's me though. And it takes me a lot of effort to force me to feel depression and sadness.

And this is why mindfullness helps so much : it forces me back down, forces me to acknowledge what I am fleeing.

I suspect rumination is a "flee" response to something we are perceiving as a threat. For me: depression is a threat.

When I get stuck at work: I ruminate until I find the issue.

Future is uncertain and I am anxious and depressed about the state of the world: I start ruminating on some kind of work, be it gardening or something else over which I have control (flee) or I start watching TV a lot (freeze).

Just some thoughts.

Thank you for this board, is it opening my eyes a lot too.

[khibomsis]

I think Riverwolf hit it on the head: rumination is a coping mechanism we learnt as children. I have always been flabbergasted by problems which I could not solve intellectually, stuff I had to feel first floored me.

I too ground my teeth until they cracked. Now I have no back teeth to grind, it is a lot better, along with conscious relaxation exercises.

When I feel it is depressing me there are ways out of it, I chant or meditate, it does wonders. And I totally hear the sense in not renting out space to people who don't deserve it.  But there will be times when I have finished chanting and the ruminating thoughts return, and I let them. Then I think consciously "let me sit in this space for a while". Like children at toddler stage who return to the mother to check that she is there and then go off exploring again, I return to my old self now and then because I am comfortable there. PTSD rules, OK. So I am OK with that, and accept that I will move on as and when I am ready.

LnL, besides self-soothing, many times it is problem solving. I will ruminate until I have a solution. I would suggest maybe setting yourself up with an alternate place, a friend's guest room or a hotel? That way, should BF arrive, it is OK for you to say "I am moving out and will connect with you socially". Because it is perfectly normal and natural to be intimidated by the thought of living with a stranger,   and nobody should have a problem with you setting up a safe space. That way your H can get to manage his daughter on his own while you rest and give your overworked nervous system a break.

This board is the ultimate solution to ruminating. When I can't stop myself I surf here. Brilliant. Helps me find constructive solutions while feeling safe, and I get the same emotional energy from it as I do from ruminating. Something along the lines of caring for myself and understanding fully how abusive others have been, but also leading to a positive solution.  

[zachira]

Is there such a thing as normal ruminating? If something really triggering happens, is it possible to ruminate and work through the momentary anger and then go on within a reasonable period of time? I agree that ruminating can be unhealthy sometimes. I once knew a woman who never stopped talking about her deceased daughter, her only child. The daughter had been dead for something like 15 years, and people said they had an acrimonous relationship. I know parents who have lost children with whom they had loving relationships, who grieve the loss forever, yet have found ways to go on living productive happy lives most of the time. Perhaps it is when the ruminating consumes us, and interferes with healthy living for long periods of time, that we need to work on finding quicker more meaningful ways to process what it is upsetting us.

[livednlearned]

since you get some satisfaction from the ruminating, are you ready to let go of doing it, and "break" this learned behavior, and "unlearn it?"

Yes, it's inhibiting this yearning I have to feel authentic and genuine, to be more in the moment and trust myself.

are you ready to give up the ruminating?  Or does the satisfaction it brings you outweigh the costs (like my situation)?

I feel ready. I've gone through periods where I practiced mindfulness every day but that has gone by the wayside. This thread is probably a sign that it's time to get back to it 

knowing and doing are quite different.  How does this translate into action for you?

Being genuine and feeling authentic is the same as trusting myself. Until recently, I didn't fully realize how hard it is for me to do that. I think it's because I'm afraid. Maybe the action part is recognizing when I feel afraid and saying or doing x anyway?

It's about safe spaces, and surrounding ourselves with people who on balance, add quality to our lives in any multitude of ways, and don't just make emotional withdrawals from our bank.

I love this.

I tended to equate strength with how much I could handle, which wasn't exactly healthy. Long past the point other people would say enough, I would be there wondering what it was about me that stayed.

I'm better at recognizing what feels safe although I do miss warning bells more than I would like. 

Why chaos?

Losing control = strong emotions = chaos. 

Intellectually I know that strong emotions don't unleash chaos. And I know that I have more skills to handle any chaos that could come up.

fleeing what is happening inside, fleeing the emotions to hide into our head.

Interesting ... I see what you mean. You mention your mom's depression and I can imagine how hard it was to then recognize those feelings might exist in yourself, especially if you resented them in her.

I seem to be repulsed by waif behaviors. This made it hard for me to show weakness or even feel it, and of course that meant feeling or expressing sadness to myself and others. I can summon tears easily now, but it took a lot of healing and work and therapy to get there. The origins of my disdain for weakness is my mom. She did nothing to help me survive a violent sibling and even her regular parenting skills are limited. My beloved dog broke her leg and my mom suggested I sell her. 

I hadn't noticed until now that there is an element of disgust in my rumination. SD25 is a waif in manipulative ways I find repulsive. This isn't something I experience with uBPD brother or n/BPDx or my golden child father who are more overtly aggressive, and although they're covert when necessary, it's never by being a victim. SD25 is more sly about exploiting social conventions to ensure she's the victim. When someone is hurting I feel genuine compassion and warmth. When it's SD25 or my mom I feel stone cold inside plus irritation and repulsion. 

This board is the ultimate solution to ruminating. When I can't stop myself I surf here. Brilliant. Helps me find constructive solutions while feeling safe, and I get the same emotional energy from it as I do from ruminating.

I'm so glad you said this. I feel the same way about finding solutions. Do you feel you are a very self-sufficient person because of this?