On the precipice of leaving - do I do it?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

It might require more consideration when there is a 3 year old and a 1 year old.

Pete, one size does not fit all.  One size doesn't even fit us if we consider how we changed in time.

My point is not to tell anyone to stay in the marriage... or to leave... this is a deeply complex and personal decision. My point is to just to think it through.

Well, that's a blast from the past!

I agree 100% one should consider the risk of parental alienation; I just took a little issue with the way you presented it.  I wouldn't focus on extreme worst case scenarios like those cited; I would just say that pwBPD are known to engage in this sort of behavior, and the Non-disordered parent needs to be aware of it, and take steps to prevent it. 

[PeteWitsend]

It might require more consideration when there is a 3 year old and a 1 year old.

Pete, one size does not fit all.  One size doesn't even fit us if we consider how we changed in time.

My point is not to tell anyone to stay in the marriage... or to leave... this is a deeply complex and personal decision. My point is to just to think it through.

Well, that's a blast from the past!

I agree 100% one should consider the risk of parental alienation; I just took a little issue with the way you presented it.  I wouldn't focus on extreme worst case scenarios like those cited; I would just say that pwBPD are known to engage in this sort of behavior, and the Non-disordered parent needs to be aware of it, and take steps to prevent it. 

[FirstSteps]

""How to I do it" One of the cleanest ways to get out is to go to couples therapy, but tell the therapist that if there is no clear path to progress in __ (n)sessions that you want to shift the focus to divorce as a solution. After (or during) file a divorce case with recommended temporary orders and set a court date for finalizing the temporary orders. Try to agree, as much as you can and let the judge make the hard calls. Then move out.

This might take 4 awkward months, but that is four months to wind down and accept the dissolution of the family and avoid a huge blow up drama (or at least experience it in stages). This can be easier on the kids, too. If she feels you should not be in the same home pending the temporary order, let her move out.

Unfortunately, I had to use this on Saturday after a chaotic and destructive Friday left me numb and with no answers except that we can't go through this anymore.  My uPBDw accepted it, as she was the one who "ended" the relationship three times in one day.  She is now freaked out that I'm not circling back, and I'm actually very happy with this solution.  The idea of reconciliation seems like a bad one right now, but I am very much up for one last try to find an equilibrium.  And now if it doesn't work, I feel like I've set a track at least a little on my terms, rather than just reacting to the weekly divorce "talks".

[ForeverDad]

95685dad ended up on Dr. Phil with his two daughters claiming he sexually abused him...

Both these gentlemen fought hard for custody and ended up as victims of the battle...

If my memory serves me right, 95685dad's ex was diagnosed with Histrionic PD and was slamming him on every clueless format she could find.  (Recently in the news, Amber Heard was diagnosed with both BPD and HPD.)

[Skip]

If my memory serves me right, 95685dad's ex was diagnosed with Histrionic PD and was slamming him on every clueless format she could find.  (Recently in the news, Amber Heard was diagnosed with both BPD and HPD.)

They had a tough custody battle, both trying to get sole custody (if I remember). She ultimately went to a non-profit women's advocacy group with two girls claiming sexual abuse and copies of emails he had sent her. The advocacy group went on Facebook to draw public attention to the matter. I think they did some real life protests too. Dr. Phil hosted a face to face with the mother, daughter, and 95685dad.

It did not play well for 95685dad.

[PeteWitsend]

They had a tough custody battle, both trying to get sole custody (if I remember). She ultimately went to a non-profit women's advocacy group with two girls claiming sexual abuse and copies of emails he had sent her. The advocacy group went on Facebook to draw public attention to the matter. I think they did some real life protests too. Dr. Phil hosted a face to face with the mother, daughter, and 95685dad.

It did not play well for 95685dad.

Jeez... What was in those emails?

Why would he agree to go on Dr. Phil? 

[TheBatHammer]

One thing that leaving will do is give you perspective, which can lead to clarity about what is the best course of action.

It is very, very difficult to look at behaviors and our reactions to them when you’re still in the relationship. It simply becomes normalcy, even if its painful or dysfunctional normalcy.

Once you’re outside of that environment, it’s a lot easier to see how unhealthy it is/was, to process things in a healthy way, and gain some clarity about what you want moving forward.
Clarity about what you want, what you’re willing to tolerate, what changes you can make in the relationship and for yourself, and just as importantly, what life outside this particular relationship will actually be like.

Journaling is a great idea.  You can really start to see the patterns and cycles of behaviors and the frequency of conflict between the two of you. It’s a common occurrence here to feel like maybe things are getting better when things are calm for a while, but when you document the relationshop and start look at journals, you might realize things have only been civil or peaceful for a day or two. Because the chaos hurts, we crave normalcy, and we feel things are better than they might actually be.

If nothing else, if you separate move out, you will eventually see their true colors. Which, again, leads to clarity.

[ForeverDad]

About that histrionic case, as I recall the daughters lived with dad at first, then the older daughter spent more time with mom and mom was determined to get the younger daughter too, whatever it took.  I lost contact with dad eventually.

Many members here have had such unbelievably false allegations made against them.  Myself included.  (When I filed for custody I had to get a Change of Circumstances to agree.  I won the right to proceed but I was shocked to see that the decision included a short paragraph where my former spouse claimed I had tried to choke her years before - and they didn't even ask me about it.  However, it also noted that she was "not credible" in some of her testimony.

How do you prove a negative?  That you didn't do anything wrong when there are no independent witnesses to document right or wrong?

[Riv3rW0lf]

How do you prove a negative?  That you didn't do anything wrong when there are no independent witnesses to document right or wrong?

This is incredibly hard, which is the whole issue with the #metoo movement and social justice online. Our justice system uses "innocent until proven guilty" for a reason, however, with social justice, any accusation makes you guilty to the eyes of the population. It feels like we are back to hunting witches.

To be fair though, if damages have not been documented, or if a woman/man did not go to the hospital to get a rape kit or anything because of shock or other reasons, the contrary is also incredibly hard to prove.

It all comes down to : we cannot know what happens between two people behind closed doors.

And if the Depp VS Heard trial taught us anything, it's that if you aim to leave a pwBPD, you better, first, document their crisis and abuse via pictures, video or recording...