What determines how long until devaluation?

[Deep Blue]

Hello,

I’ve been trying to understand, but I haven’t found any consistent answers to this question online. What determines how long the idealization phase lasts when with a borderline? In my case, devaluation started about 2 weeks after my ex and I had started dating. For others, I’ve read, devaluation and abuse started years or in some cases, even decades later.

Is the length of idealization related to the strength or weakness of the boundaries of the non in any way? Or is it something else? Any thoughts or feedback would be great. Thank you

Deep Blue

[Rev]

Hey D B,

The answer to you question, at least from my point of view, is that there are so many factors that are involved that it becomes a moving target.

I hear you saying that a non might be able to change the behavior of a pwBPD in some way. On the surface, the boundaries a non may change the timing of the pattern in some way - and that I would say is the limit. The pattern remains intact unless the pwBPD puts in the work.

Rev

[Deep Blue]

Hey D B,

The answer to you question, at least from my point of view, is that there are so many factors that are involved that it becomes a moving target.

I hear you saying that a non might be able to change the behavior of a pwBPD in some way. On the surface, the boundaries a non may change the timing of the pattern in some way - and that I would say is the limit. The pattern remains intact unless the pwBPD puts in the work.

Rev

Hey Rev,

Thanks for the reply. I don’t think that pattern will change without significant treatment either. I’d like to ask though, what do you think could lead to a quicker pattern of idealization to devaluation in terms of boundaries of the non? How do weak and strong boundaries affect how quickly the idealization and devaluation process progresses?

Deep Blue

[Rev]

Hey Rev,

Thanks for the reply. I don’t think that pattern will change without significant treatment either. I’d like to ask though, what do you think could lead to a quicker pattern of idealization to devaluation in terms of boundaries of the non? How do weak and strong boundaries affect how quickly the idealization and devaluation process progresses?

Deep Blue

That's a great question - and the answer to that, I would suggest, is entirely out of your hands. Setting boundaries is about protecting yourself rather than necessarily impacting the push-pull, idealization-devaluation process. 

It really is not predictable.  pwBPD live in a world of dysregulated feelings that can get triggered by all kinds of factors that are unrelated to the moment - hence the term "borderline" - ie: On the border-line of connected to reality and dissociation.

Hope this makes sense.

Rev

[Turkish]

From my experiences, it isn't how long, but how what. Cohabitation was the eye opener that peeled back the expectation of who we were to expose who we were, and that's reflexive.

After almost 2 years of idealization, it only took a couple of months after marriage and cohabitation for my ex to start devaluing The One she left me for. I'd hear and see how disrespectfully she'd talk to him in front of family and me such that I felt sorry for him. I was reminded how one of her brothers said a few years previously, "I can't believe how [sister] talks to Turkish!"

It's not about time, but need and the failure to meet expectations, the construct of an ideal partner, perhaps.

[SinisterComplex]

Hey Rev,

Thanks for the reply. I don’t think that pattern will change without significant treatment either. I’d like to ask though, what do you think could lead to a quicker pattern of idealization to devaluation in terms of boundaries of the non? How do weak and strong boundaries affect how quickly the idealization and devaluation process progresses?

Deep Blue

DB, brother Rev is spot on with his assessment. However, I do have to point something out here...it is impossible to determine how weak or strong boundaries affect the disorder. Just as much as it is impossible to determine the length of idealization and devaluation, etc. Why is that? We are talking about people here, individuals. Yes they may be disordered, and while a lot of the dysfunction is predictable in general terms there is still far too much variance to make any determinations. The best anyone can do is make educated guesses. No one has all the answers. Perhaps one of the biggest things to take into account is how each individual has unique instincts. Therefore there will be different responses to stimuli for each individual including those with disorders.

We cannot lump those who are disordered together. They are still individuals and not drones...despite some behaviors being eerily too similar for comfort.

I also tend to agree with my other teammate our Alpha of the pack..Turk...the idealization phase can turn into S hitting the fan and getting real once your BPD partner realizes you are not perfect and he or she finds chinks in your armor. Once that veil of the romanticized vision of the ideal partner is pierced its a wrap from that point forward.

Just remember those with BPD are consistent at being inconsistent because to them feelings are facts and their world is dysregulated. Their minds are literally physically wired differently.

Something out of left field I will throw at you though...perhaps you may enjoy reading up on psychedelics being used in conjunction with DBT and other interventions for the treatment of BPD.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[once removed]

I’ve been trying to understand, but I haven’t found any consistent answers to this question online

there isnt one.

when we talk about these things ("idealization", "devaluation", etc) in so called phases, they are generalizations meant to help individuals identify with having been in a relationship with someone with borderline personality disorder. its not, necessarily, a very realistic assessment of how people with bpd, or bpd traits operate, any more than you or i, or say, someone with obsessive compulsive disorder, or social anxiety disorder.

the answer is that everyone idealizes a new relationship partner for a period of time, generally around three months or so on average, with a lot of wiggle room (it could be as long as 6 months, 9 months, a year or two). this is known as the "honeymoon" phase of a relationship - a normal thing. the difference is that people with bpd traits do it (idealize or devalue) at pathological levels. for example, people with bpd traits struggle generally, not just in phases, with seeing loved ones either in an idealized or devalued way, all good, or all bad. its often one or the other, back and forth, with little in between. we also all operate on our best behavior, put our best foot forward, show the best side of us, in order to attract a mate, until we feel a bit more secure. the difference, again, is the level of pathology. people with bpd traits always fear the other shoe dropping.

how long it lasts really depends on the individual, as well as the relationship...the romance, the chemistry, the bond, the sequence of events. its hard to say that my ex and i ever had much of a honeymoon. we were having some of our worst knock down, drag out fights of the relationship in our first three months. idealization was always a part of our relationship, as was devaluation. sometimes, though, the swing back and forth was wilder, depending on what we were going through.

In my case, devaluation started about 2 weeks after my ex and I had started dating.

what happened?

[Deep Blue]

how long it lasts really depends on the individual, as well as the relationship...the romance, the chemistry, the bond, the sequence of events. its hard to say that my ex and i ever had much of a honeymoon. we were having some of our worst knock down, drag out fights of the relationship in our first three months. idealization was always a part of our relationship, as was devaluation. sometimes, though, the swing back and forth was wilder, depending on what we were going through.

what happened?

After a month of knowing her, 2 weeks into dating, I had just cooked for her and she was being quiet and sullen. She was being terse and cold, so incredibly far removed from how she usually behaved. Confused, hurt, and emotionally weak, I cried a little in that conversation. She revealed that she was upset that I hadn’t spent the night the previous day and that she thought I was cheating on her. From that day forward, on a weekly basis, she would split on me and accuse me and threaten me.

So 2 weeks into dating, after I told her I was tired and wanted to be on my own for a night. That’s when the first instance of devaluation occurred. From that point on it ramped up and got more abusive.

My original question basically refers to this instance. She had become hostile towards me for choosing to not spend the night with her the previous evening (which is a display of boundaries on my end of prioritizing my own interests in that moment). However, a significant portion of myself also thinks that me displaying weakness by crying may have given her the subconscious go ahead that she could advance with more devaluation (which was the instance of weak boundaries).

[Bvcruiser]

From my experience, it started out about 2 months after meeting the ex. I noticed that small comments or knit picking came up first. As I brushed off, the comments escalated and the threats started. My first mistake was not setting boundaries. My second mistake is when I began to argue back. This was about 6 months in. Then kaboom!, She kicked into victim mode, and the devalue started.

[once removed]

My original question basically refers to this instance.

i think that thats very worth exploring, as it applies to your relationship. i dont think theres an answer on the internet thats going to have a lot to offer you in terms of explaining how this played out.

 

After a month of knowing her, 2 weeks into dating, I had just cooked for her and she was being quiet and sullen. She was being terse and cold, so incredibly far removed from how she usually behaved. Confused, hurt, and emotionally weak, I cried a little in that conversation. She revealed that she was upset that I hadn’t spent the night the previous day and that she thought I was cheating on her. From that day forward, on a weekly basis, she would split on me and accuse me and threaten me.

So 2 weeks into dating, after I told her I was tired and wanted to be on my own for a night. That’s when the first instance of devaluation occurred. From that point on it ramped up and got more abusive.

its my personal take that it wasnt crying that factored into the relationship breakdown.

you love/d a very needy person.

there were two occasions where, instead of going to bed with my ex, that i fell asleep in her guestroom, and woke up to her screaming at me. she was extremely upset by this. i didnt get it. i, frankly, didnt have a lot of understanding for why at the time, and more frankly, i still dont.

but very needy people are very needy people. theyre hypersensitive. theyre prone to reading into things, perceiving slights, and magnifying them.

your ex and mine, clearly took these things badly.

one thing that is true is that a very needy person has a difficult time dealing with the needs, or neediness, of others. the first time i wept in front of my ex, she turned the entire conversation on herself. that wasnt a deal breaker for me, but i was pretty turned off by it.

im a needy person myself. i dont love to admit it, but im better off in romance if i do. i can feel slighted, sometimes very slighted, by trivial things. your ex felt slighted over a pretty simple thing, on an enormous level, and took it to the nth degree.

thats sort of the crux of bpd. if you feel slighted, hurt, rejected, the solution to that is sort of to let the other person have it, without a lot of thought to reasonable explanations.

i dont think that has a lot to do with phases of a relationship, so much as how the two of you related to each other.