Still lost

[Depression = 72% of members]

So I have numerous people in my life with narc/bpd and I've posted in the relationship board but also need to deal with my mother. On nights like tonight I am livid. My 15 year old daughter stayed at my mom's on Friday, on Sunday and said she was coming home tonight after school. Since I hadn't seen her yesterday I planned her favourite foods for dinner, cooked a pretty elaborate meal including a little gourmet salad bar and seafood rissotto. After groceries and meal prep, 2 hours into it and I'm expecting her home any minute she calls and begs to stay at my mom's again. My mom refuses to get involved saying she won't force her grand-daughter to go and my daughter is repeating what I've heard from my mom so often, that I'm selfish, jealous and controlling in wanting her home away from her grandma. The issue was that I had prepared a meal and she had not asked to stay ahead of time. Whenever my daughter has a disagreement with myself or her dad she goes to her grandma's, problem solved. I am trying to go less contact with my mom and she in turn is trying to hold on for dear life to my daughter, now the golden child, undermining her dad and I, and sometimes being pretty horrible to me, rolling her eyes to my daughter about me, calling me names that she says are jokes, etc. She has set me up to appear controlling when I try to set any boundary. There is such a triangulation that I feel completely suffocated and so angry tonight. And the worst part is I don't know what to do. She's 15. If I force her it will backfire.
While my mom is undermining me to her I'm not saying anything about my mom to my daughter protecting the image of her grandma knowing it might harm her to hear anything negative. My mom has set this up as me not wanting my daughter near her and my daughter, the teenager not wanting to be controlled, is buying into how my mom is framing the whole scenario.
My mom is covert narcissist, the charmer, the victim, the social butterfly, the self-promoter on what good energy she brings everywhere she goes, getting her highs off people's admiration and deflating when she's alone. And people love her and have never seen the other side, the suspicious side, the brutal critic, the belief that she is superior, the controlling codependent who gets angry when your opinions differ or when you don't run to her aid. The mother who just yesterday told me that unconditional love does not exist. She wins everyone else over and I am more introverted and not the best communicator so I don't stand a chance, even with my daughter. I have no idea what to do. Do I just let go? Do I fight for my daughter when she won't understand and it will backfire? Short of moving very far away I have no clue how to move forward on this one.

[Kelly2022]

So I have numerous people in my life with narc/bpd and I've posted in the relationship board but also need to deal with my mother. On nights like tonight I am livid. My 15 year old daughter stayed at my mom's on Friday, on Sunday and said she was coming home tonight after school. Since I hadn't seen her yesterday I planned her favourite foods for dinner, cooked a pretty elaborate meal including a little gourmet salad bar and seafood rissotto. After groceries and meal prep, 2 hours into it and I'm expecting her home any minute she calls and begs to stay at my mom's again. My mom refuses to get involved saying she won't force her grand-daughter to go and my daughter is repeating what I've heard from my mom so often, that I'm selfish, jealous and controlling in wanting her home away from her grandma. The issue was that I had prepared a meal and she had not asked to stay ahead of time. Whenever my daughter has a disagreement with myself or her dad she goes to her grandma's, problem solved. I am trying to go less contact with my mom and she in turn is trying to hold on for dear life to my daughter, now the golden child, undermining her dad and I, and sometimes being pretty horrible to me, rolling her eyes to my daughter about me, calling me names that she says are jokes, etc. She has set me up to appear controlling when I try to set any boundary. There is such a triangulation that I feel completely suffocated and so angry tonight. And the worst part is I don't know what to do. She's 15. If I force her it will backfire.
While my mom is undermining me to her I'm not saying anything about my mom to my daughter protecting the image of her grandma knowing it might harm her to hear anything negative. My mom has set this up as me not wanting my daughter near her and my daughter, the teenager not wanting to be controlled, is buying into how my mom is framing the whole scenario.
My mom is covert narcissist, the charmer, the victim, the social butterfly, the self-promoter on what good energy she brings everywhere she goes, getting her highs off people's admiration and deflating when she's alone. And people love her and have never seen the other side, the suspicious side, the brutal critic, the belief that she is superior, the controlling codependent who gets angry when your opinions differ or when you don't run to her aid. The mother who just yesterday told me that unconditional love does not exist. She wins everyone else over and I am more introverted and not the best communicator so I don't stand a chance, even with my daughter. I have no idea what to do. Do I just let go? Do I fight for my daughter when she won't understand and it will backfire? Short of moving very far away I have no clue how to move forward on this one.

[Kelly2022]

Also I just realized my dad was BPD. I had always thought of him as plain narcissist but in speaking with a friend about his dad I realize he fits the symptoms exactly.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi again Kelly2022,

First, I am so sorry to read the situation between your mother, daughter and you has escalated to this. From what I read accross the web, it is not uncommon for a mother with NPD to triangulate their grandchildren against their parents like this, especially when they feel threatened. It is a dark thing to live through, to be sure, to realize the abuse we have been through, and find out they are now using the people we love the most to further abuse us. And I am deeply, truly sorry. This is not on you, and you did nothing wrong... This is just what they do. Mothers with BPD also use that kind of triangulation, my mother has tried relentlessly to turn my nephew against his mother and father too.

I hope some people have better advices than I on this subject, I know some other members here also realized later in life their mother had BPD, and had already lashed onto one of their children. I am unsure how the situation was handled though... To a certain degree, like you said, with teenagers, there comes a point where radical acceptance and letting go feels like the only solution.

I do not know your daughter, nor your relationship with her. It seems like she is really close to her grandmother, whom probably used the regular frictions between parents and teenagers to get between you two. The only thing I can say is that, as a mother, if you remain there for your daughter with love, empathy, and respect, then one day, she might come around and see the dynamic for what it is.

There are great references on YouTube, I am thinking of Dr. Ramani, who offers a lot of support in dealing with narcissists of all types.

 

[Kelly2022]

Thank you Riv3rW0lf for your response, it's comforting to know there are others out there who know these situations well. When I meet people I haven't seen since before the pandemic I don't even know what to say to them, the changes have been so enormous and the realizations sound so crazy. I had led everyone to believe that I had the idyllic, supportive, mother with an inseparable friendship. My friends still adore her and find it all hard to believe.
I viewed my enmeshment as something amazing and so fortunate, framed by her bragging about how close we were. I viewed my extreme dependency as my flaw deep down and my tending to her as my strength. My body broke down, maybe to mirror my mind, to keep me dependent. In the end, there is really nothing to show for the many many years.

And Riv3rW0lf you are so right in saying my mother used the regular frictions between adolescent and a parent to divide. A few months ago she even told me in front of my daughter that I am driving her away by my parenting, that I was crazy and who would want to be around me. That even my father didn't think much of me. In front of my daughter! Whenever she sees me enforce rules with the kids she acts like a kid with my daughter and mocks me calling me a dictator or controlling and hanging on to her arm or rolling her eyes at the table when I speak. If I call her on it she calls me paranoid for thinking others are out to get me. My daughter sees me with my mother's eyes, even repeats her exact phrases, just like I saw the world through my mother's lens all my life, repeating her words about family, about this country, about my father and how horrible he was and then how much he loved me in the same breath. I remember when he was on palliative, she would get together with a group of her friends and I would join them, life had been difficult caring for him with dementia, but I remembered her saying "why can't he die already" in front of me. It impacted me, and other little comments just got me thinking over the years. But I didn't fully see her with perspective until I was made into the scapegoat with my own daughter.

I think I will need to let go as this all happened too late, she is 15 and any effort on my part will be framed by my mother and seen as controlling, jealous etc. My son will have none of it and she for the most part completely ignores him and has always shown so much more preference for her.

It has been a hell of a past few years. My mother using my daughter to break my ex and me up, talking about him non stop and how horrible he was, talking about her father too and how he is neglectful, how outsiders are nothing compared to family. My daughter can't stand her father reinforced by this. My recent ex is bpd and, yes, he is entangled in the dynamic I managed to continue, but boy was it difficult to separate from him with my mother getting in the way. The more she tried to divide us the more I hung on to him. It was all triggering since she and my dad had strongly disapproved of everyone I dated since I was a teen. When I was married they would ask that I join them for lunch and to bring the kids but not him.

When I write all this it sounds so much worse than what I thought it was. How did I not realize how far from normal it all was until now. I was dropped off at institutions when I was a week old and 3 years old and switched schools every year to make sure I wouldn't build friendships or countries. I live with the constant sense that my reality will shift completely. And it does, as it did. The sad thing is that I still have the stoic "stop whining like a baby, I had it much worse" voice in the back of my head and when I'm not feeling angry about everything I lived through, I sometimes feel like a terrible person.

[Riv3rW0lf]

My friends still adore her and find it all hard to believe.

So, she also made it into your circle of friends? Is she ever in contact with them directly without you knowing?  I worry that she also tries, in the future, to triangulate your friends against you as a revenge for you "leaving her". Do you have friends she does not know?

I viewed my enmeshment as something amazing and so fortunate, framed by her bragging about how close we were. I viewed my extreme dependency as my flaw deep down and my tending to her as my strength. My body broke down, maybe to mirror my mind, to keep me dependent. In the end, there is really nothing to show for the many many years.

This doesn't surprise me. It sounds like she has taken over your life, made it all about her and completely disregarded the healthy need of her child to reach independance. Behind this enmeshment, I can imagine she used bullying, emotional abuse, maybe physical abuse? Against you... Do you have many memories of your childhood? Many here don't... Children cope by dissociating, making it very hard, as we grow up, to see the big picture clearly.

For me to realize my mother was abusive, it took me leaving to live in another province 10 hours away from her, and to have my first child. This is what opened my eyes. I came back and suddenly could see how different I felt when I was close to my mother: scared, anxious. I didn't feel this way at home. If I hadn't left due to my husband's career, I would never have realized. So don't blame yourself for not "seeing it before": we don't know what we don't know.

And dissociating as a child, having to use the ultimate freezing response to survive to abusive parenting, it further complicates things. How can we know things we don't even remember? It takes time... Sometimes memories resurface, but it won't happen unless we actually look within and listen. And why would one look if they don't know what they don't know? See the circle there? Don't beat yourself down, it is a process, and the fact that you are here now, looking within and doing the work: this is the only thing that truly matters.

As a child, you were in survival mode, and as such, we learn to shut down the parts of us that tell us something is wrong... When not listening, and not protecting ourselves, we accumulate stress, and the body often takes the blunt of it... We had a few thread on that matter. You are also not alone going through this, and I sympathize with you.

And Riv3rW0lf you are so right in saying my mother used the regular frictions between adolescent and a parent to divide. A few months ago she even told me in front of my daughter that I am driving her away by my parenting, that I was crazy and who would want to be around me. That even my father didn't think much of me. In front of my daughter! Whenever she sees me enforce rules with the kids she acts like a kid with my daughter and mocks me calling me a dictator or controlling and hanging on to her arm or rolling her eyes at the table when I speak. If I call her on it she calls me paranoid for thinking others are out to get me. My daughter sees me with my mother's eyes, even repeats her exact phrases,

This made my stomach turn... As a mother myself, I feel so much anger reading this. What would happen if you stood up to her? If you actually got up, and told your daughter to get in the car, you are leaving. She can scream all she wants, call you a dictator but at least, it sends a message to you mother that you will not condone her behavior in front of your daughter? And your daughter will see something is up? That her mother has changed? She might resent you, but with time, she might also see things for what they are, especially when she has children of her own... Going for the long game here...

Showing empathy and good listening skills to you daughter, explaining her your decisions, the whys behind the nos, etc... Could go a long way in clarifying her views. Not by telling her plainly her grandmother is mean and sick, but by showing her HOW to be a healthy adult who stand up for themselves.

 just like I saw the world through my mother's lens all my life, repeating her words about family, about this country, about my father and how horrible he was and then how much he loved me in the same breath. I remember when he was on palliative, she would get together with a group of her friends and I would join them, life had been difficult caring for him with dementia, but I remembered her saying "why can't he die already" in front of me.

My mother also painted my father as the bad one. And for many years, I agreed with her, in a way to get her love... Me loving my father meant my mother would be angry at me, so I had to learn to hide my love for him, and overtime, I came to resent him for real. There were other reasons behind this resentment of course but this is just to say I understand the torn.

I think I will need to let go as this all happened too late, she is 15 and any effort on my part will be framed by my mother and seen as controlling, jealous etc. My son will have none of it and she for the most part completely ignores him and has always shown so much more preference for her.

And so, is your son seeing the big picture? How old is he? Where does he stand with all this, with his sister calling you a dictator like her grandmother? Just trying to get a clearer picture here... I truly root for your daughter and you over her grandmother...

The more she tried to divide us the more I hung on to him

This stood out to me... I read recently about a schema that we learn to survive, and one is "subjected" (translating here from French to English, so it might have another name in the English version of the book). This is when we do whatever other wants us to do, and then we resent them. But the other side of this schema is the "revolted subjected", which is : whatever you tell me to do, I will do the contrary, even if I wanted to do the other thing in the first place and before you telling me to.

When I read that, I fell off my chair. Whenever someone, especially my mother or mother in law, tells me to do something, even if that's what I had thought of doing, the mere fact that they tell me makes me want to do something else just to spite them, and the crazy thing is I do exactly that, and then I am unhappy because I still didn't do what I actually wanted to do...

I am currently learning to regain control over MY life and figuring out who I am, and I do not want to react to others anymore, just be who I am... And this made me realize : I do not know myself. So the first step for me is to learn to know myself, and hopefully, when I do, I will be able to stand a bit stronger, and react less to what others tell me, and just stand my grounds, based on my beliefs and values.

When I write all this it sounds so much worse than what I thought it was. How did I not realize how far from normal it all was until now. I was dropped off at institutions when I was a week old and 3 years old and switched schools every year to make sure I wouldn't build friendships or countries. I live with the constant sense that my reality will shift completely. And it does, as it did. The sad thing is that I still have the stoic "stop whining like a baby, I had it much worse" voice in the back of my head and when I'm not feeling angry about everything I lived through, I sometimes feel like a terrible person.

I feel you. Anger has been very present for me as well those past few weeks. And what is hard about it is anger is often frowned upon in society. Even my therapist seemed uncomfortable with my display of anger, how I talked. But it needs to come out, and if not at my therapist's (not toward him but just the way I was), then where?

He told me he thinks part of me is very angry, which probably create issues with others, and I don't see that. I don't get angry at people, but I do find it very easy to connect to my anger, and what is wrong with that, exactly? And why is anger so frowned upon now? Part of me IS very angry, and will pretty much always will be, and it is ok, because I am not only this part, I am so much more than that. I don't unleash my anger on others, but I do use assertive anger, and truthfully, this is my new found holy grail. With assertive anger : my husband is now listening to me and doing things around the house !

I don't have any issues with anger. I now see it as an emotion of assertiveness, a protective emotion that helps with separation. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, we just need to make sure we direct this anger toward the right cause, and not unleash it on bystanders who did nothing wrong.

I can see part of you is angry, while other parts are anxious, scared maybe, and in deep pain. Can you feel a part of you that is serene, peaceful and calm? A quieter part, almost like an observer? A part that can listen to the other parts without judging them?

[Kelly2022]

Riv3rW0lf anger is a new thing for me to feel. I have felt bouts of anger when pushed too hard in the past but I hadn't felt it enough in proportion to what was happening. According to my therapist, I haven't been feeling any. My ex bpd cheated 4 times that I know of (discovered through texts, hearsay, etc), lied, splitting, and many other things and I am missing the anger to not keep going back. I feel numb and distrustful but not an active anger. I am hoping that changes now that I am tying things together more and trying to make sense of things. Same with my mom, I am only recently feeling the anger whereas before it was a general feeling of losing myself when she was around, anxious, quietly irritated. I can still separate the feelings and not let the anger show when I see her, still protecting her and maybe myself.
I don't know that what your therapist has told you is as constructive as learning how to direct your anger and how to make it work for you. Anger has its place in helping you move on. In a way it's the us within ourselves to parent and protect us.

She did try to go walking with my friends, many of them are walkers like she is and I couldn't because of my limitations, so when she was about to reach out to them I stopped her and told her I'd rather her not. She has however included me in all her outings with her friends since I was very little, which I always thought was lovely and I was grateful, because I had no friends and I learned how to socialize with older folks, I was used to it. As an adult it was years before I was able to build healthy friendships of my age, with me not just being the listener. I have wonderful friends now and I've distanced completely from her circle of friends during the pandemic and to this day.

Something you said Riv3rW0lf made me happy for you, the fact that what you felt around your mom you don't feel at home. We often recreate the environment, which is what I've been dealing with and choose similar partners. I'm glad your case is different. And also glad you are in a different city. I can't do that in my case as I have no siblings to tend to her.

In response to what would happen if I stood up to them, if I forced my daughter, she is old enough and fiercely independent, that she might go live with her. I have to play it carefully so that doesn't happen. She has already done this with her father, refusing to see/stay with him on his days with them. She loves her grandmas house also because my mom caters to her and doesn't enforce rules, and it's a bigger place. Years ago my mom had mentioned to my daughter that her house would be for her after her death, as a reaction to me saying that the house brings back some unsettling memories. My mom doesn't talk her into coming here when I need her to or to go to her dads on his days because she doesn't want to "kick her granddaughter out", she says she doesn't want to be told what to do and in the end I believe she is lonely and would love nothing more than to have her move in. My fear is that this might end up happening.

My daughter and I have started watching "Gilmour Girls" and the whole thing is extremely triggering for me so far. I'm not as fun as flighty as the mom in the show but there are so many similarities to the dynamics. I don't know if you find the same.

The doing the opposite you talk about is common, but in this case, my ex was the one I would run to and confide in when she was hurtful. BPD's are often unlike narcissists in that they are sometimes super supportive and understanding of your experience (before they flip it on you and take it all back). I think it was a kind of replacement figure.

My ex had another episode on text last night. So we are off again. It was strange and sudden, over an emoji I used. I hope he quietly fades into the backround and I don't end up missing him again.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi Kelly2022, how are you doing today?

I've been meaning to answer your last post, but had some things of my own to deal with.

Yes, we also discussed using it efficiently, but in all fairness, I do feel I already do use "assertive anger" most of the time. I had to learn that skill the hard way with my BPD mother.

I am relieved to know you have your own circle of friends, and still sorry to read confirmation that your daughter and mother are almost enmeshed... I hope watching Gilmore Girls will bring you closer together. Lorlaye is more a teenager than a mother, ain't she? Rory is the adult of the relationship clearly... I don't think you have to be a cool mom to be a good, loving mom though... To answer your question, no, this show was not triggering for me. The song from Aqua, My mama said, is though, deeply triggering.

I hope you are doing a little bit better today... Better than yesterday, and worst than tomorrow. 

[Kelly2022]

I think I used assertive anger today Riv3rWolf! Stood my ground. Had lunch with my mom and ended up quite the PLEASE READ show.
It all began when she gave me advice about not letting my daughter leave for college (not paying for her if she goes somewhere far) and having her close because family is all that matters. I spoke about the importance of independence and how the kids should come first and they should do what they feel is best for their future as adults. She kept repeating I was going to lose (her fear) and I told her I have a daughter that no matter where she goes I'm not going to lose her, that our job is to let them fly.

The conversation devolved into the topic of their dad and I told her that it wasn't easy when my daughter ran to her house every time there was a rule she doesn't like or an argument at home. She said she wasn't ever going to send the kids back to their parents as that would be shutting the door on them. I told her that their dad had a right to his night with them to which she said she had rights too and why was I threatening her. I said it wasn't said as a threat (so confused) but that there was a custody agreement in place, and she said she didn't care about no agreement. Then she goes on to say her right includes calling child services and that she has friends who were social workers. I told her there are no grounds for that and she used information I had given her in the past when I confided in her such as his tasteless jokes and how he seemed to put everyone down sometimes, and used it to threaten us back. She said if their dad ever got on her bad side she would resort to calling them on him. (OMG!) She then said it's clear I'm seeing her as the enemy. I then asked "where is my mother" (referring to how much she has changed.. or maybe just her filters are coming off) and she said "oh grow up you're not 4 anymore". Somewhere in there I talked about how in spite of the kids' dad's flaws, I would have loved it if my dad had done some of the things he's done with the kids like shown up for performances or shown an interest in me or take me to the parks, etc. She then said your poor father (for some reason) and she commented on how I'd complain about my dad to her all my life. I couldn't believe she had the nerve to say that when it had been her complaining about him since I could remember and me consoling her and her dividing us. I told her this and was pretty assertive having had enough of the whole conversation.
When we said goodbye, she said in a sweet voice "don't be scared of me, I'm not going to take your daughter away".

[Kelly2022]

Oops I used a bad word and they replaced it with Please read Lol

[Riv3rW0lf]

In your case, I have to say that the phrase : keep you friends close and your ennemy closer, reaches a whole new level of truth.

When we said goodbye, she said in a sweet voice "don't be scared of me, I'm not going to take your daughter away".

This gave me shivers. It almost feels like a confession, she knows exactly what she is doing.

There is something my husband often says to me, and I think with your mother it does apply perfectly : Information is power. Anything of value, any vulnerabilities, fears you have... I would highly recommend keeping them close to your chest, and not talking about those with your mother. Like you said : she uses them against you later on.

And let's face it : she does not hear you, nor care about what you feel and think. This is the truth we all had to face, on this board, at some point or another: everything is always about them, and they don't give a flying s*** about how they hurt us, as long as it gets them what they want.

For her : you are the only one to blame for everything and she will not say otherwise, nor show any empathy UNLESS a showing of empathy can bring you back to her for further control. We have to keep our guards up. At all time.

I am not saying they don't feel love deep down, or regret, or guilt, but in the end, it doesn't matter because it doesn't change the outcome nor the way they act with us. When someone show you their real face, believe them.

Congratulations on standing your ground. You are right that she does not have anything to use for CPS. Does she have high moral, or low moral though? Would she be willing to lie to achieve her goals is what I am wondering. My mother lies. She lied about child abuse on my nephew by my brother's hands before, and to this day, I still wonder why.

Have you had any chance to look a little bit of Dr. ramani's videos on YouTube? she does provide very helpful tools in dealing with covert narcissists.

[Kelly2022]

Thank you Riv3rWold I’ll check out the YouTube videos, anything helps. Are you going NC with your mom? I Read a post from March in which you were and wondering how that’s going. I have been NC with my ex for a week and it was feeling pretty doable, I guess I’m getting tired of the push pull cycles and was moving past it all. I was feeling energized by meeting my old group of friends I hadn’t seen since before the pandemic and just happy to reconnect with people. I sometimes feel lonely bcs I’m alone with 2 teenagers but overall I was so much better. Today after our lunch yesterday, I am walking around wanting to cry. The new reality of what she’s capable of set in. In answer to your question of whether she lies, she turns things she does and accuses me of it. It seems like she really believes herself so I don’t know. The bit about me having complained about my dad and poor him was a punch to the gut. He was very abusive emotionally and she and I commiserated.

She’s been found to have carotid artery disease recently so I suspect that might be a partial cause of her irritation, cruel remarks and change in personality. It’s like a peeling away of niceties to reveal her true colours. I am considering telling her to call me when she needs help with health but that I won’t be going to lunches with her as I feel very hurt after and they’re affecting my life and health.

I overheard my son’s friend telling him all his phone messages were from his grandma and my son telling him back that his grandma only messages when she needs tech help. My mom says he doesn’t say much to her and she withdraws feeling rejected. She has not wanted much to do with him since he was born, and we used to argue about her blatant preference to my daughter. She once told me she viewed him as a bit of a threat since he was a boy and he would take away attention from her granddaughter.

I wish I could go NC I wish I could just disappear and start over, I wish I had become independent way sooner in life and had not felt like a caregiver to her. I wish I still didn’t.

[Kelly2022]

I am sorry if my posts seem scattered. I am reeling a bit. But maybe somewhere in there people are able to find similarities to their own experience and may feel not so alone.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thank you Riv3rWold I’ll check out the YouTube videos, anything helps. Are you going NC with your mom? I Read a post from March in which you were and wondering how that’s going.

Yes I am currently NC with my mother. I had much healing to do, and having to constantly take care of her feelings made it impossible for me to focus on my own emotions and also messed up with my identity.

I was raised with a low sense of self, and I found myself partly when I lived 6 years in another province. Being close with my mother for a month in November messed with that and I lost myself again. It reactivated a lot of traumas from my childhood. And I realized that the presence of my mother messes with my sense of self, my identity as an adult. She is a big trigger for me, I believe I have C-PTSD, and I need to deal with that before I can ever hope to have a "relationship" with her, if any.

The bit about me having complained about my dad and poor him was a punch to the gut. He was very abusive emotionally and she and I commiserated.

I remember you writing about how hearing your daughter repeat your mother's words about you reminded you of how you did the same with your father.

I do not know the specifics of your relationship with your father, and can only draw from my experience here.

But covert narcissists will triangulate people against others.

My mother triangulated me against my father, starting at a very young age and for a very long time, had me convinced he was a narcissist who didn't care about me. My father is not perfect, he is, what I would call, emotionally immature. He was dealing with a lot of pain and it was very hard for him to guide us through, but he was not a narcissist and he did care, much more than my mother, because he never viewed us as an extension of him. The only times I ever felt safe was with him, at his house, or in his arms when he was rocking me as a young child. I could safely attach myself to him as a kid, while I could never attach myself to my mother, she flipped on me too much, too often and too strongly.

I am not at all surprised that your mother would use that against you, seeing how you talked about it before. She must know your father is a sore subject for you, and a good way to focus your attention elsewhere. You were discussing your daughter, and she brought on your father to "shut you up" and make you feel bad, so she wouldn't have to explain her behavior. My guess anyway, but I wasn't there either... Just a hunch, that could be very wrong so take whatever sounds true and discard the rest...

She’s been found to have carotid artery disease recently so I suspect that might be a partial cause of her irritation, cruel remarks and change in personality. It’s like a peeling away of niceties to reveal her true colours. I am considering telling her to call me when she needs help with health but that I won’t be going to lunches with her as I feel very hurt after and they’re affecting my life and health.

While I commend your effort and empathy toward her, I would really advise listening do Dr. Ramani's videos on covert narcissism (I know your therapist told you your mother was most likely a covert narcissist). You need to protect yourself and opening up about your vulnerability to your mother, again, would be, in my opinion at least, a mistake...you need to protect yourself with those kind of personnalities.

You are currently gaslighting yourself by blaming her health issues for her attitude. My guess is you have been gaslighted all your life and you have internalized it. There is never any excuse for abuse, and when you describe how your mother undermines you in front of your daughter, how she flips on you and blames you : she is abusive. Again : There is no excuse for abuse.

I overheard my son’s friend telling him all his phone messages were from his grandma and my son telling him back that his grandma only messages when she needs tech help. My mom says he doesn’t say much to her and she withdraws feeling rejected. She has not wanted much to do with him since he was born, and we used to argue about her blatant preference to my daughter. She once told me she viewed him as a bit of a threat since he was a boy and he would take away attention from her granddaughter.

Basically, your daughter is her golden grandchild and your son the scapegoat.

My mother prefer her grandson, and my niece is her scapegoat. She lies about her intimidating her friends at school, and praise my nephew and is always texting him, in a toxic way, honestly. I don't think it is good when grandparents interfere that much into their grandchildren's life either. I value independance and privacy and I don't think it is fair for a grandchild (or child) to feel this responsible for their grandparents (or parents) feelings and boredom.

I hate it when my mother in law (my mother did that too), see my children and takes a waify face saying : "ho I missed you so much, come give me a hug, how I missed you! "
To me, this is emotional manipulation. The child starts feeling like they cannot be elsewhere because "grandma will be sad and miss me". I don't approve of that kind of behavior. I much prefer a happy : "I am so happy to see you ! How have you been ? Tell me all about your week ! "

But then, there are levels, I don't say anything to my mother in law because it is not TOO intense. My mother on the other end would cry and wouldn't let go of my daughter who was clearly very uncomfortable with all the emotions. I always had to intervene and to tell my mother to keep it light.

Maybe I am biased about my own experience, but a child should feel comfortable exploring and becoming independant without fear of hurting mommy or grandma prescisely BY becoming independant. It is just wrong.

I wish I could go NC I wish I could just disappear and start over, I wish I had become independent way sooner in life and had not felt like a caregiver to her. I wish I still didn’t.

Again, don't beat yourself up... Look forward. Many users here have managed to stay in contact with their abusive parents and made it work with strong boundaries.

The first thing to achieve that is to understand the personnality disorder they have, to truly own it and to act accordingly.

[Kelly2022]

Riv3rWolf I related to what you said about losing yourself in the presence of your mother. Even before I knew any of this I noticed myself feeling disoriented in a narcissist's presence and then returning to myself when I'm alone. In spite of sometimes feeling lonely, I feel sure about what I believe when I'm on my own, what is okay and not okay and also in the presence of someone healthy. I feel genuine and true to who I am on the inside. When I am with my mom or my ex I lose myself or crawl into a different persona to conform and to appease. I never really thought about this until recently when the contrast of who I really am and how I behave with them, is enormous. In my mind I have clear boundaries, clear speech, logic, and when I am with them that breaks down and I think and see the world completely through their lens. It's an interesting phenomenon which might be why journaling is oftentimes crucial as a return to oneself. Whatever has clicked as a result of this last relationship has made my inner voice louder and impossible to ignore. The feeling I have after spending a few hours with my mother is almost like having temporarily pushed the pause button on myself and it is such a relief to turn the switch back on when I go home.

In my last session with my therapist she said she thinks my mom is malignant narcissist which is very guilt inducing to hear on my part. I remember when I first heard another therapist describe her as narcissist I became angry, I thought he was mysogynist for focusing on her rather than my on dad. Years later when I first heard my therapist describe her as narc, I felt immense guilt for even being in the room with someone who was saying that, then disbelief and then gradual awakening upon observing. Regardless, I think she has a lot of the communal and vulnerable narc peppered in. I don't think these labels are always fixed, it's more of a spectrum. I've always viewed her as having all the empathy one can only aspire to, the way she sometimes talks about animals, or children or the underdog, but then she will also condemn or criticize them at other times showing a lack of empathy altogether. It's a weird mix that has been so confusing to me. I think people who are close will try to see the good in them and dismiss the rest. The therapist also recommended not trying to confront her, convince or make any grand statements, not to confide, but to just, I think the term is greyrock and quietly maintain psychological distance. So that's going to be the new big challenge, to not react to my triggers with her at all and not overshare anything.

What your mother in law is saying to the kids is magnified with my mom too. I never saw it as manipulation until this year because in her circle of family and friends it's just how people behave with children. "Don't you want to give me a hug, don't you love me anymore" or from my mom; "you need to tell me everything about the kids, all their secrets, I am part of the family too, in our culture a family doesn't hold secrets, family is all that matters, we shouldn't hold secrets or hold conversations away from the kids and they shouldn't either, you need to include me in the school invites and emails because I'm a parent too, the "grand" parent which makes me more important, or I deserve to be included in everything because I contribute financially". She has gone into a rage when we speak english in front of her, or when I've said unimportant things to the kids in a volume she couldn't hear (she's increasingly hard of hearing) she would become angry. I never thought these things were unhealthy and I encouraged my daughter to have a very close relationship with her, spend so much time with her so that she would have a similar experience as I had with my dad's mom (who was so different). I realized all this too late. It's hard not to beat myself up over the way things played out. I ran to my ex because of my mom's toxic behaviour and my daughter ran to my mom because of my ex's toxic behaviour when he was a part of their life. I made some bad passed down parenting choices like not working adult things out away from the kids, not setting enough boundaries with them or not seeing me set boundaries with others, trying to get my daughter to reconcile with her dad and passing things like these down without thinking. That's the reality. Time has passed and they are now teens. And I do feel like I failed at the most important thing in the world to me.

Thank you for recommending Dr Ramani's videos, they are game changers. Especially these, so important to watch and rewatch:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnZYVTNVNc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NjIhNFyPQEc

[livednlearned]

Hi Kelly2022,

I don't have a BPD mother (for me, it's a sibling). I describe my dad as the golden child (strong narcissistic traits) and a mother who is an adult child. Like many others with BPD family members, I went on to marry then divorce a BPD partner who chose to go low contact with our son (now 21). I'm now married to a man who had a BPD mother, BPD sister, married and divorced a BPD wife, and has a BPD daughter (my stepdaughter, who is 25). I feel like someone who has my act together but when I do the BPD math I wonder wth is wrong with this picture   I definitely feel I've paid my dues.  

Anyhow, some of the issues with your mom and daughter remind me of parental alienation. I wonder if some of the same skills might help you navigate these tricky dynamics.

For example, my son used to say, "Dad says you love the dog more than us."

Before learning how to handle these allegations, I would say something along the lines of, "I do not. Here's all the reasons why." I would get defensive.

I learned it was more effective to say, "Wow. That can't feel good. How did you feel when dad said that?"

I don't want to oversimplify how complex these things are. There is no one way to counter someone's covertly aggressive campaign to alienate or triangulate. But I do think creating a validating environment leads to conditions that interrupt BPD dynamics. Taking a moment to hear the emotion in what your daughter says and then responding with validation could be a powerful way to change the script.

I found the book "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better" by the Lundstroms to be excellent, especially the section on asking validating questions. I think there's an excerpt somewhere here on this site.

There are also good books on parental alienation that might not apply exactly to a grandmother/granddaughter dynamic but it's the maneuvers that seem more baffling than the exact relationships so maybe that information will be helpful.

Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak is very good at breaking down specific situations into how-to's, including phrases and approaches. And Bill Eddy's book on Don't Alienate the Kids is good, too. He focuses more on developing habits of mind that we must model for our kids.

The idea is that our kids are likely starved for validation -- especially when there is a BPD parent. And that validation, even if it may not seem to work in the moment or every time, is like offering water to a thirsty traveler in the desert. At a minimum it creates confusion about who is really paying attention to what truly matters.

With my son I practice what I think of as extreme validation and while it took some time, we were able to develop a solid relationship built on trust. I'm able to assert boundaries that he respects because we have a foundation of trust that I trace back to the rocky years when his BPD dad seemed well on his way to alienating S20, something I truly believe is a form of child abuse. My parenting is not at all what it used to be. It's much deeper and more real, one of the strange gifts that came through learning skills here.

Your mother sounds very covert, someone that my stepdaughter is, too. The book In Sheep's Clothing gave me skills to figure out where the healthy boundaries were, and the non-verbal ways to block some of the stealthier moves. I don't know how well it would work with an enmeshy BPD mother, but with SD25, I have all but neutralized her. I probably spend more time than I want thinking about how to manage that relationship, but I suspect, as others here have suggested, that my rumination comes from ptsd dealing with so much high conflict.

Like you and Riv3rW0lf, I'm learning to figure out how to deal with my anger. I had been thinking I only recently started to feel it and express it, but when I reflect on how I was in my 20s, I can see now that I was calm on the surface but deep down was feeling livid. Like a lot of people from dysfunctional families, I think I was disconnected from the language that could've helped me name and then manage those feelings. Instead, I sort of ran as fast as I could in the other direction, straight into a brick wall  

Glad you posted  

[Riv3rW0lf]

Again, we don't know what we don't know. My therapist would point out to you that guilt is often just an internalized abuse behavior : you are abusing yourself when constantly looking at what you did wrong instead of looking at what you can do right in the present.

What your mother in law is saying to the kids is magnified with my mom too. I never saw it as manipulation until this year because in her circle of family and friends it's just how people behave with children. "Don't you want to give me a hug, don't you love me anymore" or from my mom; "you need to tell me everything about the kids, all their secrets, I am part of the family too, in our culture a family doesn't hold secrets, family is all that matters, we shouldn't hold secrets or hold conversations away from the kids and they shouldn't either, you need to include me in the school invites and emails because I'm a parent too, the "grand" parent which makes me more important, or I deserve to be included in everything because I contribute financially".

Maybe I am an idealist, but I hope that by fostering independance and their individuality, and by welcoming my children for who they are, supporting them, that later on, they will come see me because they WANT to, as opposed to because they feel obligated to do so.. to me there is a big difference. And it doesn't mean they won't value family, we are teaching them not to tell on each other as sibblings, to have each other's back.

I guess for me family should feel like the secure base you keep that facilitate exploration. It shouldn't feel like a prison you need to conform to.

But of course, this kind of views would vary a  lot from one culture to another, and I do believe it is possible for a culture to foster narcissists. Our culture clearly fosters trauma, too much individuality, not enough community, children in day care at a very low age and working all your life to accomplish a career... People are traumatized, with reason.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I learned it was more effective to say, "Wow. That can't feel good. How did you feel when dad said that?"

I don't want to oversimplify how complex these things are. There is no one way to counter someone's covertly aggressive campaign to alienate or triangulate. But I do think creating a validating environment leads to conditions that interrupt BPD dynamics. Taking a moment to hear the emotion in what your daughter says and then responding with validation could be a powerful way to change the script.

This is a truly amazing advice, and I will buy that book. I can see this kind of parenting as a beautiful, real way to built trust and validate our children and a great way to disarm what abusive people can put in our children head, instead of reacting and making them feel even more unseen.

My mother would often send me to my father with messages, and I simply could not tell her no or she would rage. I'd tell my father and my father would start telling me a message to give her back. With him though, I would say : tell her yourself ! And I would run out of the room. How I would have loved my father to ask me : ok ... How do you feel about it ? (The message were often how unfair my father was). I would have loved a chance to say I didn't believe that and it hurt me to have to tell him that for her, or that I was scared of standing up to her. Instead, he would defend himself, just justify himself, and I would remain stuck in the abuse triangle.

Beautiful advice, thank you LivednLearned !

And truthfully, abuse or not, this seems like an overall good way to talk with people in general about more complex things, and with teenagers going through difficult times at school, with friends.. instead of telling them what to think and feel, we validate their inner wisdom and emotions.

[livednlearned]

My mother would often send me to my father with messages, and I simply could not tell her no or she would rage. I'd tell my father and my father would start telling me a message to give her back.

This really got me in the heart, Riv3rW0lf. It's truly awful that you were put in that position. Nothing has hurt me more in my life than watching my ex harm our son with verbal poison. It was so insidious to describe what was happening, even to myself. But I could for damn sure tell it was soul crushing for my son to be in that position and it was excruciating to not know the best way to help him.

As my son got older and I managed to get him in therapy post-divorce, my ex would text garbage messages intended for me through our son. The therapist would counsel my son to shrug it off as adult stuff and not reply or use non-committal emojis.

Looking at how badly traumatized my stepdaughters are with a BPD mom, and my son's trauma with a BPD dad, my sense is that both traumas are awful but there are some cultural gender layers in the BPD mother-daughter dynamic that really lay it on thick. My son seemed to shrug off a lot of things in part because there were lower expectations that he would engage in "emotional" stuff. So some of what worked for him might not work for my stepdaughters, for example.

Kelly2022 does your daughter experience that kind of abuse only with your mom? Or does it happen with your ex, too?

And truthfully, abuse or not, this seems like an overall good way to talk with people in general about more complex things, and with teenagers going through difficult times at school, with friends.. instead of telling them what to think and feel, we validate their inner wisdom and emotions.

So true. It's made me so much more attuned to people, and to myself. I didn't see emotional maturity modeled as a kid and I cringe sometimes reflecting back on the ways in which I didn't navigate relationships well. Learning how to validate the feelings of others is one of the most wonderful skills I learned from my many relationship trainwrecks, thank to this board  

[Kelly2022]

Thank you to both, a lot to think about for sure, I'm so grateful for your feedback and happy we're all learning to navigate these things from one another. Livednlearned, that example you gave on how to respond to hurtful accusations, it made me realize just how defensive I have reacted all the way back to my dad as a teenager to my relationships and now with my mom, even with my kids sometimes. Rather than enforcing a rule with the kids, I justify. In order to set boundaries with people, I justify. I am constantly defending my every move if it differs from other's immediate needs.  And I realize that to say what you're suggesting not only takes knowledge on how to communicate differently but also security. When we abandon the worry of what others will think of us, when our perceptions of ourselves are strong enough to carry us then we can communicate from a place of strength. I didn't realize defensiveness isn't so much a "truth teller" task as much as still being in a position of having to prove ourselves. Of assuming the other is also living in truth and not playing a game with us. It's hard to fathom an entirely different way of thinking and behaving, especially from our family.
The greyrocking, the no contact with my recent ex, it still sometimes feels as if I'm closing the door on something that might be fixed, as if they're not seeing the light and that one extra conversation or article will click for them. Because the assumption is, they're operating from the same character as I am, they want to improve, they care about the effect they have on others, how could they not. Because to accept that they don't is tremendously difficult, it's to accept that the "they" we thought they were, the love we did live, the time we devoted, none of it was real.
It is a ridiculously enormous transformation to move forward from a place of rebirthing yourself. Of now, I listen to me. Now I don't fix, I don't rescue, I don't anticipate everyone's needs before mine, now I am not responsible for everyone's unhappiness.

So Livednlearned you opened a door for a change in my communication, that learning to validate other's feelings while maintaining my boundaries. I have no language or model to do that yet. I know that I am an empath in the sense that any tiny change in others' mood triggers me and makes me anxious. I have been trained to own everyone's feelings, to carry them and feel responsible and to always accomodate. I need to learn and unlearn so much.

Riv3rWolf the messages back and forth was something I lived with too, though it was more my mom complaining to me every step of the way and oversharing. My dad would just tell me her nerves were shot, she is neurotic, etc. Most of the time though they just focused on me. I was his constant daily scapegoat and I was her golden child. Until the time just before his death, in which she yelled at me to back off from trying to care for him, that she was the wife. (I thought that was so bizarre). And then I slipped into the new scapegoat and my daughter who looks like I did at her age, the new golden child. But they would claim jealousy for saying this.

In response to your question livednlearn as to whether she experiences that from just my mom or her dad as well, my mom dotes on her and and her dad (my ex husband) is a different personality, more of an authoritarian, dismissive, cynical npd dad. He's not so good at the manipulation piece with the kids but presents a charming caring persona socially. My mom is a genius when it comes to keeping her agenda covert, of using every type of reverse psychology, gaslighting etc and presenting a happy, generous, charming woman with a joie de vivre that everyone comments on. She has learned that presenting as happy has the most power of attraction and that's her main tool. And everyone is so starved to see that in others that they buy it. She learned her coping tools from childhood, hers was a nightmare childhood even too harsh to write about. And mine was always compared to hers, as always so much better. My uncle thinks that because never lacked the basics (food & shelter) that why would I complain.

My fantasy these days is if I could just run away from her. From my past, from her past which I have also carried the burden of (she mentions it every day), from the people that are enmeshed with us, to have the space of time to heal. I know I would not likely return to any of that.

My question to you out there is if you suddenly realized later in life that you were surrounded by bpd/npd's, how much did you share with your older kids? How do you prevent that from  continuing onto the next generation, to warn them of not only these traits disguised in other people throughout their lives but also from them repeating the same behaviour from their family thinking it's normal. How do I teach them to recognize these disorders without bad mouthing their grandma, dad, or hurting them in the process. How do I hide what I'm going through, how do I explain the low contact with their grandma. I have no idea how to navigate that piece.

[khibomsis]

Hi Kelly2022, glad to see you on the PSI board! You must have been incredibly strong to survive your childhood. I am sure you will have the strength to deal with this.
You are getting excellent advice from RW and LnL. I have little to add here except maybe just the very oldfashioned advice to rest. You have been through a lot, both physically and mentally, you need to give yourself a chance to recover.
I found that when I was tired and worn down is when uBPDmom would do her worst on me. Or when I was preparing for an important test or work event. Somehow she sniffed this out. So in the long run my best solution was to strengthen myself, to this day I feel guilty when I rest, but it makes me stronger.
Do something for you every day, something which replenishes your soul. And that will model for your children how one stays sane and healthy. You can't change your mother's triangulating family dynamics. But you can determine what will be your family dynamics and set the basics in place for when you are grandmother.
 

[Kelly2022]

Thank you khibomsis, that must have been so difficult when your mom behaved the worst when you were most tired or stressed. It takes up mental space and affects a test or work event. I guess the focus had to be on her. Mine was the opposite, she fell right into the role of saviour and uber caring when I was ill or stressed and it created a dependence and gratefulness that allowed the toxic control and enmeshment to take place.  I'm not sure if I am as strong as you say, I didn't really see a way out even as a teenager, I didn't see that the door to the cage was open. I turned to religion as a refuge and as a way to turn what they taught me into something that would pull me out of my situation, mentally and ultimately physically. I took it to an extreme to focus away from them. I remember being hyper vigilant about my behaviour, bending over backwards in the name of religion and realized that nothing stopped my dad's rages and criticisms. I tried to leave to a few convents but they turned me away saying I was too young . In college I discarded all of my dad's teachings, stopped going to church, rejected their politics, etc. Now that I realize my mom's part in it all, I have an immediate distaste for what she believes in too, her "family is everything" slogan, her "Europeans know better", her paranoia that every man in our life will have a hidden agenda, her grandiose belief that we are special, above the rest, her ongoing conversations about how when she walks into a room everyone stops and admires her presence and energy, that people she meets tell her about the impact her aura has on them, and so on. All things she is still telling my daughter. Like a walking personification of social media, constantly promoting herself, and my daughter, like so many others, following.

Thank you for your advice to rest. My normal is to constantly be doing, and like you, feel guilt when I rest. But ever since the detachment from my ex and mom I went through a period of feeling paralysed, stunned. I'd sit there almost disoriented as to my next step. I slowed down. I began to read, to write to walk and think. I couldn't start the other things I loved to do. Until one day I did. And that's when I started feeling a bit stronger.

Last night I had a general conversation about npd/bpd with my kids. How to spot it, how it feels, unhealthy patterns of dismissing, joking at the others expense, lovebombing, etc. I told them no one teaches this in schools and it will be massively important in their lives to choose friends and future partners who will not hurt us or impede our growth. The conversation went well but I could see that a child will not examine their own family structure or make those connections. I will keep educating them in general terms and maybe one day they will make some connections and set the basis for future generations. I think you are right khibomsis I can only change myself to change the triangulation dynamics, and yes, create a completely different scenario when I am a grandmother.

[Kelly2022]

Has anyone here had experience facing extended family of a narc/bpd mom? I’m feeling anxiety over the thought of visiting them. My mom has more than presented her side of the story to them, has gone running to them when I first pulled away, and I haven’t said a word about any of it. I was thinking of just visiting and saying I’d rather not speak about it, just that it has been a very difficult time for me and that I don’t want to be involved in drama nor shatter their image of her. I am anticipating that my daughter will step into the role of speaking for my mom behind my back as she has in the past, regurgitating my mom’s version of what happened and why. And that gives me so much anxiety and grief if that were to end up happening. Add to that that my moms brother will try to convince me to forgive and forget and not keep distant from my mom not cause her grief.
How can I navigate all this?

[khibomsis]

Kelly dear, listen to yourself. Even the thought of visiting this relative gives you anxiety. You anticipate guilt, grief and some weird form of triangulation with your young daughter. Is it a must attend occasion like a birthday or an anniversary? Then go and grey rock it. If you don't have to go, don't. Spend some time on self care and when you are more rested, what do you think about discussing family schemas with your therapist?
What you are modeling for your daughter is how to love yourself. That is how intergenerational cycles break, one little tiny change at a time. And it will make her more resilient when she grows old enough to see through your mother.
I find chanting, meditation or prayer the best way to deal with anxiety, for those inescapable moments when I cannot spare myself. It helps me recognize a safe space within myself from which love can grow.
How does this resonate with you?

 

[Kelly2022]

Thank you Khibomsis,
meditation is good and journaling helps as well, thank you for the suggestions. I ended up chatting with my family and they were very welcoming on the phone. The only thing that gives me a bit of anxiety is if my daughter repeats my mom's dialogue while she hangs out with them. I wrote a long email I never sent to my cousin who is studying to be a therapist explaining where I'm at, thinking she would probably be the only one familiar with these issues. I'm still on the fence about sending it, it's not an angry letter and I asked to keep it confidential, but I still almost feel as if they're going to see it as me bad mouthing someone who is dear to them. But sending it would help me feel that at least one person gets it.

My daughter is off to my mom's again tonight. I had given her a curfew and she was hoping to have a later curfew at hers. I insisted on the same curfew and will check that she's at her's by then. She's upset her plan didn't work. My mom is telling me in private she wants her at her place by a certain time and today my daughter told me that my mom asked her to be home by then or else I won't let her visit anymore. She also told my daughter I got mad at her when she wasn't at her place on time last week but the reality was I wasn't angry, I was worried that her friend drank too much and my daughter was crying.
These mind games are crazy and frame me as the bad guy. She makes herself super sweet and childlike to be like a sister to her and I'm the unreasonable rule setter. She shows no back bone with her but with me in private she will be a completely different person and tell me the opposite of what she's telling her. And the biggest trigger is that these were exactly the dynamics when I was living at home with my parents. She pretended she was powerless and little and so sweet with me, always warning me my dad was coming, to be on my best around him or else. It's all so triggering.

[Kelly2022]

Do I call my mom out letting her know I'm on to what she's doing or do I stay out of it?

[khibomsis]

Dear Kelly, educate yourself. It is hard, it seems as if you were the  golden child while young, and now you have become the scapegoat child while your daughter is the golden child. These terms are from Christine Lawson's book Understanding the Borderline Mother. You get it as an audiobook on Youtube and it really helped me make sense of my situation. A little Jungian, but in a good way. There are book reviews and member discussions here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=53779.0

I used to dream as a youngster of being a tennis ball that my parents were batting between them. It is a most painful way to grow up. I feel it with you when you describe your childhood. Because it left us little space to figure ourselves out. This is what your daughter needs, and so you must approach the budding triangle with caution. Here is further reading on drama triangles: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle
I am still practicing, the best I can do is to be very selective with what I give energy to. And to think it through first, what are my boundaries and what do I need to get out of the situation? Like I said, people who grew up emotionally overwhelmed like us  need lots of space just to figure ourselves out.

Well done on enforcing your boundaries with your child even in your mother's house! I would suggest focusing on this for now, these are years of family systems you are undoing and you will be overwhelmed if you try everything at once. Tiny little changes, and celebrate every one  

By all means talk to your cousin. Just be careful what you talk to her about, it might be too much to start off with my mother this and my mother that. But that she is studying therapy seems to indicate that she too is noticing something is not right. Maybe just a casual coffee and a small enquiry as to why she is interested in psychology might be a start? And take little steps from there depending on how she responds.

Here we say recovery works best when three support elements are in place:
1. Therapy
2. Peer support (that's us  
3. Family and friend support - it doesn't necessarily have to be direct support in your battles with your pwBPD, that is why we advise, see first what that person is interested in and follow their lead.

I am delighted you are journaling and meditating! The science tells us that amygdala hijack (the stress hormones going amok in your brain when a pwBPD starts dysregulating) takes about half an hour to subside. Be kind to you, first. You need yourself now.  

 

[Kelly2022]

Khibomsis, you sound like you've been at this discovery for a while. For me it's all hit me like a ton of bricks this year and has unravelled every other toxic relationship I've ever had.

The most important take away sounds ridiculously basic, the fact I had believed that dysregulated behaviour was so common that we had to accept it, that it was human nature. There have been words like authoritarian or strict or even over protective to describe narcissistic parents and these terms are so linked to
"care" all over the world, they are defined to you from birth. It murks the line between abusive parenting and implementing necessary rules or boundaries needed in parenting. Why isn't any of this taught to children? What dismissive responses look like. What gaslighting looks like. What minimizing looks like, or silencing through manipulation. What grooming looks like. How someone can exhibit narcissistic features only part of the time and the rest of the time be charming and seem so caring or generous or complimentary. What to believe when you're faced with duplicity. Moving with caution when someone doesn't treat others well but treats you well. Why are we focused on our children's academic performance or physical health when the other half of the equation to success is mental health and confidence.

I've been quite ill for the past 9 days. It has allowed me to keep my mom at bay and am enjoying the peaceful time even if it's been horrid with my health. She asked if we could go to lunch one day, I guess she had forgotten I had told her I could barely move and could barely talk. I said no that I didn't want to spread the virus (not covid) and she said she didn't mind she would wear a mask. She calls super concerned but mostly to give me advice about what to do or not do, complain about me not picking up the phone these days or filling her in on my life and to chat about her life. I am lucky with some close friends that have brought me food and left it on the porch knowing I wasn't in any shape for a visit. So grateful for them. And I realize, that's what I would do, just leave it there even if I didn't get anything out of dropping by. But my mom wants the company, and to chat, and if that doesn't happen, she doesn't think about what I would really need otherwise. So she stays away telling everyone how concerned she is so that I'm getting calls from overseas relatives. She calls my daughter to tell her how worried she is and what I need to do to get better. All to make sure everyone knows how caring she is. And all the while I'm thinking what does she care how I feel, how I truly feel. And all my life I never saw this. I saw everything as genuine.

I haven't reached out to my cousin. She is the youngest and has a great friendship with my daughter, like the sister she never had. I'm not sure what to do about the confiding in her, I may go to coffee with her and show her the email I wrote. I can't describe it in words to people yet.

So I think I'm making progress, and still no contact with my ex and enjoying working on my projects. Thank you for your support here, it helps a lot.

[khibomsis]

Kelly, I am so sorry you've been ill! I hope you are resting and getting well. In the meantime, it sounds like you've been making the best of it. In fact, it looks like you used the respite to regroup and unshatter. It is giving your emotions time to catch up.
You don't have to respond to your mom. Try not taking a call, or waiting an hour before you respond to texts, then two hours, then three. It is counterintuitive, but non-response is also a response. It says you need space.
My take on it is that they feed off our energy. By choosing not to give the craziness any energy. it will gradually dissipate. This is not to say that your mom will be any less crazy, pwBPD who don't wish to go to therapy are unlikely to change. But we teach them how to behave in relation to us by our actions. And sometimes not engaging is the wise thing to do.
I think not talking to the cousin was the right thing to do. Your daughter might feel triangulated. Share the letter with us here, instead. We will validate you.
 
Yup, I think this is my tenth year on this board. I feel safe here. Two abusive long term relationships and then an on-and-off LDR for five years. I have come to the conclusion that I need LOTS of space and so LDR works for me, it gives me emotional stability while in actual fact I crave alone time.  Going to work on that with my therapist this year, I mean at some point we need to make a decision. My uNBPD mom is dead four years and yes, she still has a hold on my soul. I use my alone time to grow the selfhood I never had as a child. My partner is recovering pwBPD and her mom is uBPD (not in therapy). I suspect what keeps us going is solidarity.  
So not sure I am a postergirl for recovery, but you know what? It gets better. One day at a time.
 
 

[Kelly2022]

Khibomsis, sometimes it takes so long to recover from these things, a LDR sounds like a safe choice. It could be a permanent choice if both people are up for it or it could be a transition period of getting your footing back. I'm in this weird space in which I've lost most of my people. My mom, my ex, and my kids up until a year ago filled up all of my time. I've stripped away the toxic and continue to do so, but haven't filled that space with healthy relationships yet. It takes time to rebuild your life. I'm also not ready to date and sometimes it feels lonely, especially on summer weekends when everyone seems like they're out of town with their partners.
This past week I went 3 days without contacting my mom ( yes I know ludicrous). I had pneumonia and had no energy for anything. I got a call from my family overseas saying I should call her and make up! I called her and she went on about how sick she's been and how she almost fell when she went dancing and whats the point of anything, she's so tired of it all. It's weird when she had acted caring  when I first got sick and she didn't get back what she expected she goes to victim mode. I have a kind of distance now from people that I didn't have before, which allows me to observe before responding to them. I realize, that all of my life, I've responded to their words right away and gotten sucked into their narrative, without even thinking about mine. My old self would have fell right in when she went on about her health, I would have researched for her, and my thoughts would have shifted to trying to make it better for her rather than on focusing on getting better myself. It just blows my mind the way I've been living my life and just how very late the blinders came off.
On the bright side this toxic ex has  been the catalyst that has allowed me to see, to not give my energy to people that aren't good for me, to establish boundaries and to hopefully build a decent future.

[khibomsis]

Aw Kelly, thank you for your understanding words! I really was in no rush after two long term relationships and in transition is where I suspect we will be for the rest of our lives. It was huge realization for me that this relationship will be permanent although we may decide to call ourselves other things as we come to our senses. I mean, neither of us can say who we are going to be at the end of the process but for certain we will always be in each other's lives. It was helpful to think in this way because I started thinking about making our life comfortable for me. It really helped me set boundaries.  I try not to worry too much about the future and take one day at a time. Every day we both get better is what matters.

Well done on not answering the phone for 3 days   I know, my uNBPD mom would have sent out a search party too. Next time try making it for 4? Eventually she will get used to it and not dysregulate like that.  You can read up here on extinction burst https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I am so happy  you are better, don't rush to jump out of bed now but give your tired body and soul time to rest. I could never understand why I was always tired as child until I understood about amygdala hijack:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/amygdala-hijack#prevention

Our moms triggered us on the daily and did not know themselves how to not be triggered. Your mom's victim narrative serves a function for her.  With time, the more you act out your boundaries, the more likely she will find somebody else to tell her story to.

I'm heading for my sixties now and focusing on having fun and feeling safe. It is never too late to have a happy childhood