Brother Trigger

[mitten]

My uBPDw is ALWAYS triggered by my brother visiting... it never fails.  He, his wife and kids live about 4 hours away and visit a few times a year, usually just for a couple nights at a time.  They stay with other family when they are here but of course if they just come for the weekend I like to spend as much time with them as possible. 

My brother is texting me right now asking if we'll be around this weekend if they come to see our parents.  We don't have any plans but I get terrible anxiety about even asking my wife or telling them that they are coming.  My brother is completely normal- it's my wife's uBPD that makes her feel insecure about it. 

Any advice so I don't feel this sense of doom every-time.  I love my brother and I would like to see him... but the tension from my wife is so intense that sometimes I wish they wouldn't visit at all... 

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[kells76]

Do they come over to your house?

Wondering if there's a way to do a "leaving the door open for her to join" move where she decides how much she participates.

Something like you plan a full day out of the house all together (zoo, lake, whatever), and let your W know: "Hey honey, there's a plan to spend the day at the lake with Bro and his family, you're welcome to join if you want". And then you and the kids (I think I remember you have kids?) go, and if she wants to, she joins, and if not, that's her call. But it's not at the house.

Of course, there's the possibility that she then complains about being abandoned, "you never do anything with me", etc, if she decides not to go. But I guess you could decide if that's "less worse" than however things would go if she were there.

[mitten]

Wondering if there's a way to do a "leaving the door open for her to join" move where she decides how much she participates.

Thanks Kells.  My wife doesn't seem to mind them coming to our house, sometimes even complaining that they never come to our house and only go to my parent's house.  I think she is mostly triggered by simply feeling like she is not #1 while my brother is around (probably just a fear of abandonment?).  She jokes that we are in love with each-other etc... even though I rarely call him and haven't visited his house since 2019. 

When I give her the option to not come she will then feel abandoned or like she doesn't matter... or that we don't want her to come.  Which is absolutely false.  I'd love her to come if she would actually enjoy it. 

The last time they visited she used our 1year old's nap as an excuse why we couldn't go over to my parents house to see my brother until after 3 pm. I offered to take our older child early so he could play with his cousins since he doesn't nap and would just be sitting at home... she quickly responded that she didn't want to make the 35 minute drive alone with our 1 year old.  Totally a no win situation...  So I ended up just sitting around at home most of the day wishing I could be spending time with my brother and his family who was visiting. 

[kells76]

If she's going to be "like that" no matter what you do, I wonder how it'd go if instead of "offering" or "suggesting":

I offered to take our older child early so he could play with his cousins

you instead "informed":

"Hey babe, Son and I are headed over to Parents' house; we'll make sure there's dinner for you if you want to join later"

I mean... she won't be happy either way, right? And -- you staying home didn't fix anything for her. She doesn't actually feel better or get better or "have an epiphany" when you don't do what you want or change your plans because she doesn't like your plans.

The challenge may be less "what should I do" and more "how can I cope with her when I do what I want to do".

Thoughts?

[mitten]

The challenge may be less "what should I do" and more "how can I cope with her when I do what I want to do".

You absolutely nailed the part of the problem I am responsible for.  I don't have the courage or confidence to face the conflict with her.  The conflict is purely verbal, she doesn't get violent, abuse substances, etc thankfully.  I feel like "a normal" husband would be like- whatever, I'm going to see my brother.  And not let it bother them, but I dread the conflict and it wears me out from all the anxiety.   

[kells76]

I dread the conflict and it wears me out from all the anxiety.

I really get it. It's the same way with my H's kids' mom and stepdad. I am just so, so worn out from the relentless covert conflict, that I avoid some of the conversations that the kids bring up, because I just don't want the fight. I get that that's a "me thing" but that is just how it is.

Maybe then the question can be more tailored -- how can we make "eyes open" choices ahead of time, whatever the choice is, even if it's a "giving in" choice, where we feel like we have some agency, that we are choicemakers and deciders and we are opting for what we want, even if it's "intellectually not the best choice".

Kind of two things going on, then. One -- we sometimes judge our choice options ahead of time, and we are like "it would be better if I stood up for myself and did my thing, no matter what", and then when we are exhausted, we feel bad that "we gave in and didn't do the better choice"

The other thing going on in parallel is maybe a sense that "because I chose the worse choice, I didn't do a good job of choosing and it was unhealthy for me".

I wonder if those things going on can get reassessed/rejudged.

More like: "I am doing the best I can in this moment. I am listening to the messages from my body that I am exhausted and have no resources right now. I'm choosing Y instead of X and I notice I feel sad about it. What I'll do after I rest for Z amount of time is call my brother for support. I know he will understand."

So the first part would be reassessing "what is healthy" and actually, listening to our body's message to us about being exhausted, is healthy. It's not an either or, but rather "well, standing up for myself can be healthy at the right time, AND ALSO listening to my body tell me it needs a break is ALSO healthy at the right time".

Not sure if this is making sense, but maybe what I'm trying to get at is that we can find ways where we retake the power of making choices, and we have compassionate self messaging about our choicemaking.

I say all this as someone who struggles with this deeply, definitely not some expert.

[Cat Familiar]

To echo some of what Kells has mentioned, I’ve learned that emotional exhaustion may be inevitable, so why not do what I want without *asking permission*?

Anticipating a *cleanup on aisle 4* may be more exhausting than actually doing it.

[PeteWitsend]

My uBPDw is ALWAYS triggered by my brother visiting... it never fails.  He, his wife and kids live about 4 hours away and visit a few times a year, usually just for a couple nights at a time.  They stay with other family when they are here but of course if they just come for the weekend I like to spend as much time with them as possible.  

My brother is texting me right now asking if we'll be around this weekend if they come to see our parents.  We don't have any plans but I get terrible anxiety about even asking my wife or telling them that they are coming.  My brother is completely normal- it's my wife's uBPD that makes her feel insecure about it.  

Any advice so I don't feel this sense of doom every-time.  I love my brother and I would like to see him... but the tension from my wife is so intense that sometimes I wish they wouldn't visit at all...  

There are some other threads on here about BPDers alienating their partner from his or her family.  I'd look them up.

In some cases, it seems members have been able to handle this by more or less politely ignoring the BPDers attempts to turn it into an issue, and telling them if it's a problem, they're free to stay home.  Their BPD partners may grumble a bit and are certainly not happy about it, but that's the extent of the grief they get.  

In other cases (for example: mine) the BPDers are disordered enough and emotionally extreme enough to be willing to escalate or create conflicts with family; in my own experience, BPDxw was willing to flat out scream at my extended family, picking fights over small inconveniences or perceived slights, and in some cases inventing things that did not happen.  This was simply intolerable to me; I was not going to let her treat my family members like that, and I'm still - years later - upset with myself for even "going down the path" with BPDxw and allowing her to ruin family visits like she did.  

Do not let them drag you down into their world.  Remember: their emotions and disorders do not have to be yours.  You need to decide what you want, and assertively go about it.  

You can reassure him or her, but don't waste time going in circles, and if the conversation gets heated, end it for the time being.  

There may not be an easy answer; like in my case, if the pwBPD is willing to escalate conflict to an intolerable point to get their way, you simply have to decide how much you're willing to tolerate; there's no way to otherwise find a workable solution.    

[Notwendy]

I think it's the being #1 issue.

My BPD mother disliked my father's family and it was mutual. Mostly they tolerated her for the sake of my father. Most of the time, we visited without her as she didn't want to come along.

After he passed away, I assumed they'd have nothing to do with each other and that would be fine with all of them.

There was a reunion on his side of the family and I and my family went to see them. When I told BPD mother, she was very upset. I was nervous about telling her because I knew it would upset her that we were vising them, not her and I didn't want to hurt her feelings but we really wanted to go see our relatives.

She then got upset that she wasn't included. I said but you don't like them and she replied "but I am your father's wife and I should be included". She actually didn't make the connection that, if she didn't like them, they wouldn't have her be there. She had a need to be included. She wanted to be invited. It would be her choice to come or not ( and I knew she wouldn't go) but she wanted the feeling that they included her. I think she wanted to feel important.

I think you should go see your brother. Obviously staying home doesn't help the situation and you miss out on seeing him. But how can you make this be a bit more about your wife being important. Maybe bring her into the conversation more. Bring her a cup of tea. Tell her how appreciative you are that she's so gracious to your family. She can probably pick up on your demeanor- that she's the impediment to you seeing your brother, so how can she feel important too?

[thankful person]

I’ve also had problems with my dbpdw not wanting contact with my foo. Things are more complicated since having children as I don’t even have the choice to just say, “well I’ll go alone then..” I mean, I do have that choice but what I’d prefer to say is, “I’m going to take the older child and you and the little one can come if you like..” (for example).

We are a few hours away from my parents now, but my brother comes up here to visit his wife’s family, so I envisage the same as your situation Mitten. In my case I think it’s that.. I’ve had so much success with the techniques I’ve learnt to calm my wife and communicate better and do things I want to do for myself etc etc. In my perception there will always be some eggshell walking and some caretaking; if we are to have a successful relationship with a pwbpd then by definition, we need to express ourselves a certain way…

This brings me to why I am so nervous of saying those words “I’ll take older child with me”. Because I don’t want my wife screeching that she doesn’t accept that and won’t allow it, and particularly I don’t want her to physically snatch the child from me (she is only two). I love this new calm atmosphere where we all get along. The children can barely remember the daily screeching we used to have in the past. I’d rather protect them from it… but then I’m still caretaking. It’s tough isn’t it.

[PeteWitsend]

I look at family alienation and BPD conflict this way:

the BPDer is going to be unhappy regardless; if you see your family he or she will be upset.  And if you don't, they'll understand on some level what they did was wrong (b/c they know their complaints about your family to be baseless & attempts to manipulate), and will fear the resentment they caused, and so they'll STILL create conflict around it.  

Also, consider the bottomless pit analogy: you will spend all day trying to make them happy and it's not possible.  In the end, you're left with nothing more to throw in the pit, but the pit is still there.

So go see your family, with or without your partner.  Don't cut loved ones out of your life for the sake of a BPD person; it does no one any good.

[mitten]

To echo some of what Kells has mentioned, I’ve learned that emotional exhaustion may be inevitable, so why not do what I want without *asking permission*?

Anticipating a *cleanup on aisle 4* may be more exhausting than actually doing it.

You and Kells nailed it.  But my brain is not wired that way... I'm trying to get over being a caretaker and being more comfortable with conflict.  This is how I've come to realize I am part of the problem. 

[mitten]

I look at family alienation and BPD conflict this way:

the BPDer is going to be unhappy regardless; if you see your family he or she will be upset.  And if you don't, they'll understand on some level what they did was wrong (b/c they know their complaints about your family to be baseless & attempts to manipulate), and will fear the resentment they caused, and so they'll STILL create conflict around it.  

Also, consider the bottomless pit analogy: you will spend all day trying to make them happy and it's not possible.  In the end, you're left with nothing more to throw in the pit, but the pit is still there.

So go see your family, with or without your partner.  Don't cut loved ones out of your life for the sake of a BPD person; it does no one any good.

Pete, thanks for the analogy.  I need this as a reminder as I try to re-wire my brain to think more in this way.  I know rationally that what she's doing makes no sense...but I still have such a hard time confronting the conflict.  Fortunately she is on her best behavior (for the most part) in front of my family.  They probably suspect a little tenseness but she acts pretty sweet and charismatic in front of them.  The downside to that is that they have no idea what I'm going through and some of my excuses for not doing things probably seem odd. 

[PeteWitsend]

Pete, thanks for the analogy.  I need this as a reminder as I try to re-wire my brain to think more in this way.  I know rationally that what she's doing makes no sense...but I still have such a hard time confronting the conflict.  Fortunately she is on her best behavior (for the most part) in front of my family.  They probably suspect a little tenseness but she acts pretty sweet and charismatic in front of them.  The downside to that is that they have no idea what I'm going through and some of my excuses for not doing things probably seem odd.  

That's pretty good!  I mean, I sympathize with what you're going through one-on-one with her, but if she can at least keep it together in front of your family, then it's not completely hopeless.    

In my case, BPDxw would generally behave herself in front of the larger group (i.e. when we were there with 4 or 5 other people), but was just plain nasty to my mom, and on other occasions, my aunt and my brother.  I think maybe - given her "style" - she knew she could control the situation and flat out lie and scream unless the people around included objective witnesses to her behavior.  Then she'd behave herself.  When it came to conflicts about my family, there was definitely a calculated element to her behavior. 

When it came down to visits to my mom's house, or from my mom, she would flat out make up stories about my mom, and then claim those as "reasons" why we should not spend time with her, or allow our daughter to see her.  In one instance, I even checked her phone to see whether what she was claiming my mom said was true (it was not).

And if/when I disputed any of the things she claimed, she'd immediately fly into a rage, claim I never "stand by her" or "put her first" or [insert subjective standard that was impossible to meet here].  She'd scream at me, pupils dilated, eyes all wide.  Other times, she'd start sobbing hysterically about how I could never truly love her or she could never trust me, whatever, and run into our bedroom.  

She also admitted once or twice that she felt "threatened" by my relationship with my mom and my family and wanted me to cut them out of my life.  Then, in each case, later denied saying it, and telling me it wasn't fair to mention this to our marital counselor (at the time) and she wouldn't go back if I did.  I figured that admission was close to the truth, and explained the dynamic underlying her behavior.

Anytime I feel like I maybe could've made it work, or could've done it differently with a different result, I remind myself of this and am glad I left.

[Jabiru]

You and Kells nailed it.  But my brain is not wired that way... I'm trying to get over being a caretaker and being more comfortable with conflict.  This is how I've come to realize I am part of the problem. 

It takes time. You remind me of how I felt before (and maybe still an ounce of now). The book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist is brimming with the encouragement I needed to face my fears and be more confident with my uBPD wife. It helped change my mindset that I need to take responsibility for myself and not enable unwanted behavior in my wife. You got this 

[orders4946]

This really resonates with me.

I have gradually installed boundaries so my undiagnosed BPD wife no longer causes huge drama if I am to go and visit my family (previously it would cause so much drama and anxiety for me that I conceded and swallowed the resentment).

I love the idea of 'taking the older kid' and my wife following later after my 1 year old's nap but my wife see the children as 'hers' and that she has 'final say' over what I do/not do with them.  I can only imagine the scenario if I proceeded against her wishes, even though I know under law I have just as much autonomy with the kids as she does.  It's frustrating.

[mitten]

This really resonates with me.

I have gradually installed boundaries so my undiagnosed BPD wife no longer causes huge drama if I am to go and visit my family (previously it would cause so much drama and anxiety for me that I conceded and swallowed the resentment).

What boundaries specifically have you set?

[thankful person]

This really resonates with me.

I have gradually installed boundaries so my undiagnosed BPD wife no longer causes huge drama if I am to go and visit my family (previously it would cause so much drama and anxiety for me that I conceded and swallowed the resentment).

I love the idea of 'taking the older kid' and my wife following later after my 1 year old's nap but my wife see the children as 'hers' and that she has 'final say' over what I do/not do with them.  I can only imagine the scenario if I proceeded against her wishes, even though I know under law I have just as much autonomy with the kids as she does.  It's frustrating.

This is where I’m at too. My wife now accepts that I go to see family when I want and doesn’t cause drama over it. And I know that this is amazing progress. But the children… we are a lesbian couple, they are legally both of ours… But my wife birthed them and sees them as hers and I rarely look after them or take them anywhere without her. They are only 1 and 2 so I’m hoping they can see my family more when they’re older. I know the process… we non bpd do what we want and our pwbpd  have to deal with it. That doesn’t scare me anymore. But I can’t take our 2 year old without her agreeing as she would just snatch her from me. And I’m so happy the children don’t have to deal with her screeching anymore so I feel like I’m back at the “don’t want to rock the boat” stage, even though I am happier, calmer, more independent etc. It irritates me to think I’d have more rights over my children if we were to split up.

[once removed]

im interested in the "not feeling #1" theory too.

have you asked your wife more about this?

people with bpd can be jealous, yes, and can feel threatened by our intimate relationships with others, yes.

but how do these get togethers go, historically? is there a way to make her feel included, or more of a priority, while still bonding with your brother?

[orders4946]

What boundaries specifically have you set?

Previously my wife used to cause all sorts of drama if I spoke to my family of origin (making negative comments, making me feel ashamed for talking to them, not permitting me to facetime them with my kids, not let me family visit, say I saw/spoke too much of them) and I got to the point where I had enough.  I aggressively told my wife that I was doing what I wanted to do with them and if she didn't like it she could leave, or if she tried to stop me I would leave.  Weirdly she seems to have backed down and I have much more freedom when it comes to them (although I still receive an occasional negative comment from her).

But I can’t take our 2 year old without her agreeing as she would just snatch her from me.

This is exactly what would happen if I tried to do the same.  My wife would physically stop me from leaving.  What do you plan to do about it?  I don't know if it is normal to have these different views or whether I should have more say in what does/does not happen with the kids.

[mitten]

im interested in the "not feeling #1" theory too.

have you asked your wife more about this?

people with bpd can be jealous, yes, and can feel threatened by our intimate relationships with others, yes.

but how do these get togethers go, historically? is there a way to make her feel included, or more of a priority, while still bonding with your brother?

You make a really good point... honestly I probably don't do enough anymore to make her feel included.  I used to in the beginning but I am so frustrated and angry with her for always resisting hanging out with my family that it's hard for me to do this sincerely...and I'm exhausted.  The minute she hears my family is visiting she starts asking specific details about all the plans, and then instantly works to sabotage the plans.  The resistance just kills my desire to put any effort in including her because I know she doesn't want to be there.  But this is a great reminder that I should be mindful of what I can control about the experience I give her while with my family. 

[mitten]

What are some validating statements you would use in my situation when discussing plans with family?

I want to say:
I know you don't like it when my family visits.
I know having a brother-in-law makes you feel uncomfortable.
I know having in-laws is hard for you (her parents both died when she was a toddler).
Wow, aren't you glad I don't complain about hanging out with your family?

But what should I actually say?

[PeteWitsend]

What are some validating statements you would use in my situation when discussing plans with family?

I want to say:
I know you don't like it when my family visits.
I know having a brother-in-law makes you feel uncomfortable.
I know having in-laws is hard for you (her parents both died when she was a toddler).
Wow, aren't you glad I don't complain about hanging out with your family?

But what should I actually say?

Avoid statements that will only serve as points for her to start arguments over.  Keep to simple statements of intent, without emotional words. 

I'd stick to something like "I need to/am going to see my family from time to time.  If you can't or won't come, I am disappointed, but I understand."

If it gets heated, or escalates, then you can move toward listening with empathy and trying to calm things down. 

[mitten]

Yeah, I realize that I need to be sensitive to her high emotional state... but sometimes I'd really like to shame her for all the distress she causes me around planing to see my family.  I just want to say "I know it's hard for you to have in-laws and you don't like them visiting..."

[Cat Familiar]

Do you want to get what you want or do you want to start an argument?

It would be nice if she had empathy for your feelings about wanting to see your family more frequently, but SHE DOESN’T.

Any attempt to shame her will drive you further from your goal of making this happen.

Consider this—you’re an accomplice in getting to this point where she has tried to control your behavior on this front. Had you just done what you wanted at the beginning of the relationship, you would not be in this position now. You can change this, but it will be much more difficult to create a new pattern.

[mitten]

Consider this—you’re an accomplice in getting to this point where she has tried to control your behavior on this front. Had you just done what you wanted at the beginning of the relationship, you would not be in this position now.

Oh how I wish I knew then, what I know now… being a caretaker was (is) my weakness.  .

[once removed]

But what should I actually say?

when it comes to validating statements, try to avoid telling her how she feels (unless youre restating how she said she feels).

if shes asking plans, that seems to me like the opportune time to create buy in for her.

is there anything shed like to do? would like to avoid?

if the subject comes up, i would use validating questions, as opposed to statements. give her the opportunity to express how she feels about the visit. mainly listen. if you could get a sense from her for whats driving the underlying feeling(s), it can help.

[thankful person]

Oh how I wish I knew then, what I know now… being a caretaker was (is) my weakness.  .

I remember the exact moment when I decided to sell my soul to the devil and relinquish all previous values in a bid to please my wife. We were staying in a hotel room together whilst we searched for our first home. One of us had made coffees for us both. I had picked mine up, started drinking it and placed it on the other side of the room. My wife was distraught to see that I was drinking my coffee without her, and that I had moved it away from hers. I remember mentally processing, “wow.. I can’t believe she’s actually saying this… but I have to go along with it if I want our relationship to work out… I must apologise. And do everything I can to please her. Even against my own wishes.” And I did. Soon afterwards many more rules crept in and I did my best to follow them. I started saying things like, “shall we have our coffees now?” or “is it ok if I have my coffee now?”. I couldn’t paint my nails because they looked nicer than hers, I couldn’t speak to my mum on the phone without my wife’s permission. My wife was never happy though.

I FaceTimed my mother today with the children, and my heart didn’t even beat faster because I’m not nervous about my wife’s reaction anymore. I really want my brother to come up so I can face new challenges. Creating a more “normal” life and relationship has become somewhat addictive. I randomly noted recently that my brother is also a caretaker. His wife has always been painted as the villain by my family, as she’s often offending and upsetting people etc. (especially me). But I mentioned to my wife how she doesn’t allow him to wear certain things etc and she said, “you know what? She’s actually quite like me…” I’m hoping they will get on better now my wife is a bit older.

[mitten]

Just wanted to share that overall I had a good weekend with my brother visiting.  Originally I had said that we would only hang out with him on Saturday even though he was here Sunday too (and then we'd hang out with my wife's family on Sunday as well).  Well turns out my wife's family's party got delayed until evening so she suggested we go see my brother again Sunday beforehand.  This made total sense to me (rather just sitting at home) and I'm glad she saw it too!  We went and spent about 4 hours with him before going to her family's house.  I tried to include her a little more while we were together with my family- asked her if I could get her drinks, joke around, etc.  I definitely had to make an effort to do that when I could tell she really didn't want to be there...which frustrates me.   

Thanks all for your words of wisdom as I try to work on this major trigger point for us.