Narcisstic traits as a protective layer in BPD?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Just a random thought that I'd like your view on:

An increase in narcissistic traits as protection measures to untreated BPD?

Could this explain why our BPD mothers crisis and emotional outbursts lower over time, as they age, but their narcisstic traits, the critics, the baits increase? Experts seem to agree that BPD "decreases" in intensity over time, but clearly, drawing from me experience and this forum, the dysfunction doesn't.

It is as if...by acting more like narcissists, they were trying to keep people at bay, because having people close is too dangerous for them, as it triggers their abandonment trauma, rendering them frantic and leading to deep emotional crisis.  And the only way they found to manage their strong emotion is a narcisstic defense.

What do you think?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Riv3rW0lf,

N is often a co-occuring disorder in a pwBPD. Have you ever read the book I Hate You Don't leave Me? I love the wheel illustration they have which shows all the comorbid conditions that can exist along with BPD. They're all along the 'border` of many other disorders. A pwBPD frequently has more than one.

It's true that some of the intensity of BPD lessens as they get a bit older. For example, when my uBPDm was in her 20's, those were by far the most volatile years for my brother and I (and dad). Our sister who was 7 1/2 years younger had less of the intensity,  but maybe that went from a scale of 10 (being high) to and 8, so still very disordered. I think as my brother and I got older, we also got bigger and she finally stopped 'spanking` me (really that was a term to allow her to hit me) at 12 years old when I was as big as her.

I don't think of it as something else they hide behind or use as an excuse as much as I think of it as a co-occuring disorder. Not that it couldn't be another excuse. It'll be interesting what others have to say. Good question! 

 
Wools

[zachira]

A very common dysfunctional couple is one partner with NPD and the other with BPD. The children of this type of couple are negatively influenced by both the NPD and BPD in their parents. My immediate and extended families are full of people with personality disorders: BPD, NPD, OCPD, and people with Asperger's. It can be hard to distinguish how theses disorders overlap. In my experience, aging people with personality disorders are less able to hid their personality disorder/s, and are treated less favorably because they are no longer young and attractive. The aging people with BPD in my family do look more narcissistic as they age: more meltdowns, more unreasonable demands, and less inhibited about who they show their dysregulated emotions to.

[Methuen]

I suspect the opposite is true with my mom.  

Everything including her depression, anxiety, N traits and Bpd has worsened.  And worsened and worsened.  I don’t even know her anymore. She is self absorbed , attention seeking, cruel, and consumed by her fear of abandonment.  That fear dircts and controls her distorted thinking.  

While I wish her Bpd improved as so many seem to suggest  it can, my experience is exactly the opposite.  Her behavior is so unacceptable, it is beyond words.

Improvement in any area is just not my experience.  

Many times I have heard it said that as a person ages, they reveal their true self.

[khibomsis]

I think elders with BPD get really enraged about aging. Because it is the ultimate dependency. And they take it out on us. All the more if they stop working and retire.  Leaves them nothing to do but to sit around and mess with our heads. My uNBPD grandfather, the weaker he got physically, the stronger he got at psychological manipulation. I could see a glint in his eye when he got the desired reaction. Made me think he had figured it out and deliberately pre-planned the drama. Thankfully family got wise and just ignored him as far as possible. 

[Methuen]

I think elders with BPD get really enraged about aging. Because it is the ultimate dependency. And they take it out on us.

Yes yes yes.  Thank you for articulating this when I couldn't.

[Notwendy]

I also think some elderly people lose their filter a bit with aging. Part of our thinking brain is that we may think something, but we have the better judgement to not say it. I don't know for certain, but I think an aged brain may not act fast enough to do this.

You mentioned your mother having a racist rant and I recall an elderly person in our community doing this and it was very inappropriate and out of bounds. I also wondered if he may have also had some dementia. Who in their right mind says these terrible things? Either really terrible racists or someone who isn't thinking sanely.

Add BPD to this and what they say can be even more hurtful. My father was quicker to anger and could say hurtful things in his elder years- things I don't believe he would have said before this. BPD mother has said hurtful things but they are more often and more likely now.

I think my father was angry about his increased dependency. He had been able to do more things for my mother and I think the less he could act as rescuer, the more he aligned with her in other ways. My BPD mother has always wanted people to do things for her. But she needs to be in control of them.

[zachira]

People with BPD and/or NPD see people as either all bad or all good. With aging, their polarized views of people and events gets more negative.

[khibomsis]

You're so welcome Methuen! Stay strong now
 

[Riv3rW0lf]

So, after reading all of your answers, and after reading a bit more on the subject, and especially after discussing it with a new friend of mine, whom told me her own mother was diagnosed BPD (!)..

I came to the following conclusions (all opened to discussions of course and not at all a certitude for me yet):
- Many C-PTSD are likely misdiagnosed as BPD;
- BPD (the real PD) has to somehow include strong narcissistic traits to explain the strong abuse we have been through, emotional and sometimes physical, and is likely not curable... I just cannot reconciliate how a PD could be completely cured, unless it was never a PD to begin with...
- Most of us, in order to be here, probably had N/BPD mothers?

I just.. the experience my friend had seems so very different than with my mother? Like her mother does not exhibit narcissistic traits, just more fears of being excluded, but my friend said she didn't feel like she suffered any abuse, and she is indeed very well balanced?  Or she appears to be at the very least...

So is it that most diagnosed BPD are actually not borderline, but have emotional dysregulation, or namely C-PTSD, and that what my (and likely your) mothers have is actually a mix between narcissism AND borderline personality disorder? And as such, is very hard to treat because it is a PD, and hence absolutely DOES NOT lessen with age. Plus the narcissism of it keeps them from seeking help, in the end?

Like for narcissism, BPD traitement could include a raise in self-awareness, but not cure their PD like a lot of diagnosed borderline claimed happened...?

[zachira]

To really know whether it is a PD, it is important to treat all diagnosis under consideration together. After considerable time in successful treatment, the PD will likley either be quite prominent as an obstacle to improvement, or will fade into consideration as a diagnosis.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

To really know whether it is a PD, it is important to treat all diagnosis under consideration together. After considerable time in successful treatment, the PD will likley either be quite prominent as an obstacle to improvement, or will fade into consideration as a diagnosis.  

Agreed.

I do wonder how many therapist do this thoroughly though. A lot of the litterature seem contradictory and to not make much sense... I am not a psychologist, but I do work in research right now and am starting to doubt our institutions with the amount of low quality papers I've come across...

[zachira]

There are many disorders that go undiagnosed and/or misdiagnosed. For example, a client can be in therapy for many years and not make much progress until it is revealed that he/she has a history of being sexually abused. When homosexuality was classified as a mental health disorder, many gay people often looked like they were seriously disturbed because of all the terrible discrimination and abuse they endured. I think many of us on this site, myself included, can identify with being thought of as mentally unstable at times in our lives because we had so much untreated trauma from being abused by our FOO.