FOG phone calls

[Notwendy]

The last time I visited, on the day I left, BPD mother told me how much I upset her. That was it, not a "it was nice to see you" or anything like that. Since then, she has not asked me to visit and I have not initiated a visit. In the meantime, she's been asking golden child to visit for weeks and GC has plans to visit.

Recently she's been calling me asking me to visit and I don't quite know what initiated the change. I suspect it's because a neighbor became aware that she was acting hurtful and said something to her and this prompts her to give the appearance that she's smoothed things over. I think the neighbor said something and it triggered her.

Mostly I don't say much to her as it doesn't make much of a difference but I did say this time that I didn't plan to visit as I assumed she didn't want the visit, and reminded her of what she said to me. Of course the response was the predictable circular sort of apology discussion that just feels icky.

She said " I need you to come help me go through things like important papers" and I have lost count of how many times she has said this- and then I go- and she won't let me go through anything or gets mad at me if I do. Then tells me GC is coming to help her do that and I replied that's good- GC will discuss anything important with me. (the pattern is the same with GC- who knows any sorting out won't likely happen).

Then she goes all waif and says I am abandoning her and asks me "won't you still be POA?" and I said yes, GC will share any pertinent information you two discuss with me.

Then I told her I needed to look at my schedule and would let her know if I can visit.

I didn't say I would visit, I need to think about it. Truthfully, after her verbal abuse at the last visit, I didn't really want to try again. She doesn't live close enough to visit in one day. It's at least an overnight stay so I usually stay longer. I don't stay with her- so that's a hotel, gas is expensive, and emotionally it's tough. None of this would be a barrier to visit an elderly parent in regular circumstances- it would be worth it to me to do it- but she's played me so many times, I think this is is one of them.

At the moment, I don't want to take on the emotional aspect of a visit to her.

She wants me to come so that the neighbor can see it.

I don't know how I would feel if I didn't see her, but also I know that visits with her are like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football. The football being the hope of a nice visit with her, but we know what happens each time Charlie Brown goes after the ball.

She knows that GC is coming to visit and so that's good enough for now. I am going to think about this, and if I did visit, perhaps how to combine the visit with some other visit nearby so I don't feel completely used, if I decide to visit. I have a friend who lives nearby- so maybe I can plan to visit her as well, or look at some other things to do. Or she may just let this idea go. On my part though, there's FOG. It feels wrong to not visit an elderly parent. I am not that kind of person to not care about that. But she is. Ultimately I will need to follow my own conscience regardless of what she does.

[Notwendy]

Just even thinking about a visit right now feels so icky. Even if I feel badly that I don't want to visit, I really don't want to go through a drive, a hotel stay, for a visit that inevitably is emotionally upsetting. Even the phone call was upsetting.

I need my vacation time from work to do things here, to recharge.

So, I'm going to stay put for now.

[madeline7]

Not Wendy,
Right now I am in the same place, and although I do feel bad that my very elderly Mom is indeed isolated, partly by choice and partly by circumstances, I think at this point, I would feel worse if I continue to play the game, knowing that the football would be yanked away just when I thought maybe this time...
The lesser of the 2 evils is me standing by my convictions, and hopefully feeling less regret about it later. Feeling that setting that boundary and following through is ultimately going to be in MY best interest, and isn't it about time I thought about myself? But it's still an emotional tug of war, and exhausting.
Take care of yourself, and it sounds like you are.

[Notwendy]

It really is an emotional tug of war, and we are so conditioned. Even though she's been discussing visiting with GC for weeks, she's said nothing to me about wanting to see me until now. Yet, the first thing I did was look at my calendar to see how I could shuffle things around to fit in a visit in between, and then I thought, no - this kind of schedule is too hectic. A visit needs to be planned better.

It is so automatic. BPD mother asks me to do something and I try to do it, whether I want to or not - because I feel FOG.

I also don't think she actually wants to see me. Why else would she have been talking to GC about visiting and not me.

I think this sudden "need" is due to something else, perhaps the appearance of my visit.

Another issue with a visit is that I usually don't sleep well when I am there. It's harder to sleep in an unfamiliar bed, even if the hotel is comfortable, and also when I am emotionally disrupted. I also didn't sleep well for a while after I returned from the last visit. It's not just time spent with BPD mother. It's travel and time to emotionally calm down after that because, even if she were to behave, I'd be on guard around her.

It's interesting because, all this time, she didn't made it comfortable to stay in her house. It's not that she could not afford it over the years. She and Dad could have done it. There's only one spare bedroom now,  and the rest of the rooms were converted to workspace, exercise room, etc. The only bed left in one room is the same small bed that I slept in as a child and it's uncomfortable.

What I imagined is that, if I want a grown child to stay with me, I'd swap out an old bed for a comfortable one, if affordable- and it is. What's even more interesting is that, when I used to stay with them, I didn't give it a second thought about it- I didn't expect them to do anything for my own comfort, because, they don't do that- it's as if the idea that they'd show any concern for me isn't something that crosses my mind.

I recall after staying with them for a longer time when Dad was ill, that my back hurt for a while. I thought it might be stress, but maybe it was the bed.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I was talking yesterday about mind-reading...

I don't think it matters, in the end, why she wants you to visit. What truly matter are your own feelings regarding this visit.

Let's say she genuinely wants to see you... I don't think it would change the end dynamics where she blames you for upsetting her, because this is a pattern of borderline and I don't see it changing anytime soon for any of us...

Let's say it is because of the neighbors... Again, it won't change the pattern.

No matter the reason, she is what she is and the end pattern will be the end pattern... No paper to look at, some blame shifting, her being upset.

But you, how do YOU feel about the visit? In the end, it is the only thing that matters.

If you go, it should be because you want to... The idea of meeting with a friend there is a wonderful idea to balance the FOG and make the visit more about yourself than to meet your mother's request/demands, while still respecting your own value about visiting an elderly parent.

And if you are tired from work and was looking forward to some much needed time alone, then you should be able to do that without guilt too. Any healthy parent would understand. We might be sad not to see them, but we would validate their needs to recharge. Is it possible your mother felt that you were pulling away because you usually plan a visit during your vacations? And she is trying to keep the existing pattern in place?

The FOG all gets to us, our brain are wired for the guilt and the shame, and even the hope that this time might be different... But it is never different. So I think it the best approach to focus on yourself, your ethic, which I know, from all your posts here that you are a pro at doing and are even doing right now (in the healthiest of ways!).  

[Notwendy]

Riv3rwOlf- yes I agree with you. It's if I want to do it. At the moment, even if I did want to, it would not be in my best interest. Work has been stressful lately. I love my job but almost all jobs felt harder due to Covid changes and mine has too. I don't want to add an emotional trip to that.

Lately, I have added self care to the trips- stopped to visit a friend, or taken the long way home through a scenic area rather than the highway. But I also would like to consider it when I feel I can clear enough time for that.

So yes, even if she wanted to see me, it wouldn't change on my part right now.

I think the "mind reading" is a result of being played. Most of the time when she asks me to do something, there's another agenda. It's like the boy who cried wolf. Whether the wolf is real or not, it's hard to know either way.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
The problems I see here, is that your mother is constantly moving the goal posts finding new ways to abuse you. Visiting your mother does not seem to help her in any ways she is able to appreciate your efforts, and she abuses you every time you are there. You know by previous experiences, that your mother has no intention of having you help her sort through her things, that this just a lie that has worked in the past to get you to go spend time with her.
There often comes a time, in which we can't endure the abuse of a disordered person anymore. Before my BPD mother died, I could barely tolerate her phone calls, because all she wanted to do was invalidate me by saying I was financially dependent on her which I wasn't and never was after becoming an adult, and try to give me money. We could not talk about anything else. It really hurts when I think about how I could not really visit my mother and take care of her in the ways I would have liked to if she had been a loving mother, yet I could not do it anymore. I do not regret my choices in the final months of my mother's life. I do feel sad about having to make decisions to protect myself from my mother and my siblings who wanted to accuse me of elder abuse when there wasn't any.
I do think that as the abuse continues and we become healthier, the messages become clearer about what is in our best interests. You would like to be the loving thoughtful daughter who visits her mother until she passes, yet maybe you just can't endure the emotional abuse anymore of the long trip and invalidating visits. Would only being in occasional phone contact with your mother and not visit work for now?

[Notwendy]

Would only being in occasional phone contact with your mother and not visit work for now?

Yes, that's what I want to do and what I decided after the last time I visited. I felt I was choking back on tears the entire time.

My thoughts driving home were- why did I do that? Well for one, I did it for me, because I felt it was important to see her since since visits were less due to Covid. It was on my part, not contingent on her. During this visit, I tried to do the kinds of things that would make her happy- involving time, effort, and money- none of which seemed to have any kind of positive impact. By contrast, we have made similar efforts to visit mother in law, take her out to a nice lunch, plan get togethers for her, and she's so delighted just to see us.

Not with BPD mother. She either ignored me, or was emotionally/verbally abusive.

So, while I am glad I did it for my own self, and I learned that visits only go one way. I didn't see the point in doing it again. I know how it is going to go, and how it went was emotionally upsetting to me.

I am actually OK with not visiting her at the moment. It's hard when she calls and acts waify but it helps here to post.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Notwendy,

For some reason while reading your posts and the responses, the phrase "it's the loving thing to do" came to my mind. Words so often carelessly thrown around, and I wondered how we would define loving in a situation like you're facing. It definitely wouldn't be loving to you for you to have to navigate a visit to your mom. Is it loving to her (or any pwBPD) to go out of FOG and obligation? Probably not if we stop to think about it. I think you've come to a good conclusion, and you've thought through all the parts of what it would cost you emotionally to go.

I recently went on a trip to visit my sibling and her family. I hadn't seen their new home since they moved 5 years ago, and yes, there were some feelings of obligation on my part to go. I guessed it would be challenging since the last time I was with them was tough. She's not BPD, but being raised by our BPDm has influenced both of us, my brother too.

I sorely underestimated the effect it would have on me. There were so many similarities in her home environment, disrespectful kids, raised voices and chaos, oh the chaos. I don't think I will ever forget that from my childhood. I felt so fragmented as I tried to be helpful in a busy house with 3 children (2 of them teens). I lost track of myself and felt emotionally similar to when I was a child. It was crazy. When I came home, it took weeks before I could start to feel safe again. I decided the cost for me is too high to put myself in that situation again, if I can help it. I saw my family over the weekend at a reunion, at a location far from where they lived, and I did well with them, out of their home environment, and I didn't stay with any of them. I love them all dearly, but thankfully I'm learning to love myself more. I'm learning that there are some things I cannot do and remain mentally healthy.

Anyway, I just wanted to applaud your weighing of all that you know to be important and choosing to make the choice on your terms, not based on anything else.

 
Wools

[Turkish]

Aside from the guilt, if your sibling GC can handle it, then your mom's being supported. The competence of that support is between them.

[Methuen]

During this visit, I tried to do the kinds of things that would make her happy- involving time, effort, and money- none of which seemed to have any kind of positive impact.

I learned the hard way, that the harder I tried to demonstrate my love, do her bidding, and please her, the worse her behavior became, until it escalates to raging verbal abuse.  I truly believe that borderlines can't handle being treated well, and somehow not "handling" it translates into hurting the one being kind to them.  I haven't fully grasped the psychology, but I have fully grasped the pattern.

She wants you to come for some hidden reason.  She can't be genuine and say why.  She uses the same old excuse that has worked in the past (because that method to get you there has been successful before).  You know it's not about the papers.  You've seen that rodeo many times.

I am actually OK with not visiting her at the moment. It's hard when she calls and acts waify but it helps here to post.

Good for you NW for being OK with not visiting.  

Mother says jump, and we respond by jumping as high and quickly as possible.  We have to train ourselves not to jump when they suddenly say they need us.  We have to break the conditioning.  That is what I see you doing here.  You are working at breaking the pattern to jump at her behest.

I have been struggling with this too.  I can't find the words to articulate this what this journey is like, because in reality there is nothing we want more, than to have a healthy relationship and help our mothers.  So there's a direct conflict between the realities of their illness which we can't change, and what we wish we could do.  

Out of curiosity, what is the relationship like of GC and mother, and GC and you?  Is GC aware or enmeshed, and does GC work with you or against you?

[Notwendy]

Wools, you said it well- the effects of the visit after the visit. I also feel fragmented after the visits, don't sleep well.

Methuen: Mother says jump, and we respond by jumping as high and quickly as possible.  We have to train ourselves not to jump when they suddenly say they need us

Yes, exactly- we have been trained well which makes it hard to not jump.

GC and I have a good relationship thankfully. I think it's hard to be the scapegoat child growing up, I know I felt as if I was less than the GC. The GC was clearly BPD mother's favorite and they were enmeshed. Yet, there was more pressure on the GC to be successful. It seemed that the only way for GC to differentiate was to do the opposite for a while and float from job to job until finding the one that fits. Ironically, GC is both the favorite, but also faces the most criticism from her for somehow disappointing her.

GC has the harder time standing up to her. One reason is that there has been genuine good in their relationship and so there's a positive bond. So CG takes the connection along with the verbal abuse. I can tell GC almost anything but know that GC is more susceptible to her manipulations and so am careful about what I say. But GC has also experienced her verbal and emotional abuse and recognizes the need for boundaries with her.

I think we are aligned in wanting the best for her but also recognize the need to have boundaries.

[Notwendy]

I learned the hard way, that the harder I tried to demonstrate my love, do her bidding, and please her, the worse her behavior became, until it escalates to raging verbal abuse.  I truly believe that borderlines can't handle being treated well, and somehow not "handling" it translates into hurting the one being kind to them.  I haven't fully grasped the psychology, but I have fully grasped the pattern.

She wants you to come for some hidden reason.  She can't be genuine and say why.  She uses the same old excuse that has worked in the past (because that method to get you there has been successful before).  You know it's not about the papers.  You've seen that rodeo many times.

Yes, it seems odd that whatever we do that is nice for her, she finds something wrong with it. I think the reason is an emotional need to be in victim position on the Karpman triangle. Victim needs a persecutor and a rescuer. If we are doing nice things for her, these dynamics aren't going on. Maybe the nicer we are, the more effort to be in victim position- which then someone may prompt them to rage and verbal abuse.

I have posted before about a time she resisted our offer to go get her car from the car repair shop. There was no rational reason for that. We all need a ride to get our cars from the shop but she was uncooperative and finally let us do it. This pattern is so common. She seems to somehow have us in a position to upset her. It's this:

BPD Mom "nobody will come help"

Us. "here we are to help"

Then she resists it, or there's conflict over getting it done. Not much gets done. We fail to meet her expectations somehow.

So, I have a bit of an ah ha moment:  Maybe asking us to come help is that, while she may want to see us, it also meets her emotional need to be in victim position, and so there's a conflict between these two. We may either come to help and fail somehow. Or we don't come. Either way, we end up upsetting her or disappointing her. I don't think she actually wants that, but somehow she needs to emotionally.

Why victim position? It avoids being accountable and that avoids shame. If you have ever been shame triggered, it's an awful feeling and maybe it's an intolerable feeling for her. I have sometimes wondered if she was abused as a child/teen but I don't have any proof of that or know who it might have been who did it.

there is nothing we want more, than to have a healthy relationship and help our mothers.  So there's a direct conflict between the realities of their illness which we can't change, and what we wish we could do.  

Yes, exactly.

[Notwendy]

This was posted on the relationship board but I think it's relevant to this one too. The pattern, abandonment fears.

What stood out to me is the differences in perception. When the psychiatrist mentioned he could talk to a patient and all seemed to go well on his part, somehow the patient experienced it differently.

I have heard BPD mother say things like this as well, about her doctor, her home health care workers- how awful they are to her. I may think I am doing something nice for her. Yet, to her, she may perceive it differently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvaA-VAPwUo

[Methuen]

I empathize with the your experience of FOG.

I brought mother her groceries yesterday, and stayed half an hour to visit and put puzzle pieces in. She asked about work and I told her a client had cancelled. I told her we were leaving the next day to go camping for the weekend..  Later, H took her to Dr appt.  Dr recommended a geriatrician to look at her meds (she’s got a lot going on including vertigo). Mother accepted.

Last night, H gets a text:  “At this rate I won’t make it to Christmas “.

FOG.  

He rolled his eyes.  We did not respond.  

No jumping on our part.  She has chosen to live independently in her house.

It’s not the relationship we want with our mother.  But it’s the one we have been given.  

We leave on our camping trip in a few hours.  A couple of years ago I would have stayed home from the guilt.

I think it’s good you are staying home.  Break the pattern.  Don’t jump.  An extinction burst may come, but I am getting better at staying in rhe present instead of fretting about it.  I am hopeful you’ve already got the hang of staying in the present . 

[Notwendy]

I am glad you are taking care of yourself.

It's hard to do that. Have fun camping!

[zachira]

Methuen has said that "borderlines can't handle being treated well." I would say that borderlines can not handle intimacy and close relationships. It seems that when we try to connect to them through acts of loving kindness, that somehow not being able to return the loving kindness, brings on their shame about not being able to have close loving relationships.