Is there a cause of BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I'm sure this has been a topic of discussion at some point...but I find myself today questioning what is it that creates BPD in a person? My understanding is that it is mostly  a fear of abandonment. With my Mom...this makes sense. She was the youngest of 6(her siblings were all much older)...and her Dad left her Mother before my Mom was even born. He moved away and started a new family. From what my Mom has told me...she lived in poverty and my Grandmother was an alcoholic and insanely bitter about her husband leaving...I wonder if my Grandmother "blamed" my Mom...it seemed to be an unplanned pregnancy late in life? Regardless... abandonment seems to be a core wound for my Mom.

Today...I sit here wondering if my Sister In Law is BPD. She seems to be a child in an adults body...like my Mom. She ALWAYS seems to be dysregulated and she is always melting down. She is 40 and lives with my Mother In Law...she never got married or had kids, I only mention this because she seems to be EXTREMELY bitter about this and "pretends" that it's because she was "taking care of" my mother in law and father in law as he was passing from cancer...however...this is untrue. She was financially and emotionally sucking my in laws dry. She recently flipped out and said she wanted to move out BUT my Mother In law HAS to buy her a house...and despite my husband and other sister in law protesting this (because my Mother In Law is NOT in a great place financially) she agreed to buy her a house. I believe she is doing it because she is so emotionally battered and wants my sister in law out and she sees this as the only way. My sister in law is extremely abusive and blames ALL of her problems on my Mother In law and treats her horribly but my Mother In Law just keeps enabling and paying her way through life.

Today is my Son's birthday and my son(who is turning 10) asked his Aunt if she would come to camp the day of his birthday for cake ...she came at 1pm...my son, his brothers, friend, Dad, and, cousin were all out on our Uncle's boat. She flipped out that the boys were out on the boat when she arrived. She screamed that she wouldn't have drove all that way if they were gonna be out on a boat! The drive is 2 hours, however, I've been to A LOT of Birthdays and cake is typically always served AFTER dinner(which our Uncle was preparing to grill) She just melted down like a child and said she was leaving the gift without seeing my son! I've witnessed a lot of her tantrums and I've always tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and keep trying to have a relationship with her...even when my husband(her brother) didn't want to deal with her anymore. Also, my other sister in law doesn't speak to her anymore. But this is the first time her tantrums have affected my children and I am officially done with her. I'm not a therapist so I can't diagnose her...but it sure seems like bpd. We were all having a great time...she shows up...chaos ensues and my mother in law is left crying and I'm sure my son will be disappointed when he gets back...it just feels TOO familiar to the dynamics with my Mom...but until today I tried REALLY hard to look past her horrible behaviors(in part because they were not AS bad as my Mom's)

Which leads me back to my question...do you think people are born with BPD(because if it is on BOTH sides of the family that is scary to me!) OR does something create BPD? I love my Mother in Law and I dearly loved my my father in law who passed away...but it's almost as if they went the other extreme with their kids! My husband describes a childhood where he had free reign to do what he wanted(he used to ride the city bus all over by age 8!) He also said that his sisters were treated like queens...especially the sister in law Im talking about...maybe golden child? Is it possible to have a golden child without actually being abusive to the other kids? My husband always said he was treated differently because he was a boy and the oldest?

Just interested in anyone's opinion on this? Thank you for reading...I also needed to get it all out!

[lm1109]

I'm sure this has been a topic of discussion at some point...but I find myself today questioning what is it that creates BPD in a person? My understanding is that it is mostly  a fear of abandonment. With my Mom...this makes sense. She was the youngest of 6(her siblings were all much older)...and her Dad left her Mother before my Mom was even born. He moved away and started a new family. From what my Mom has told me...she lived in poverty and my Grandmother was an alcoholic and insanely bitter about her husband leaving...I wonder if my Grandmother "blamed" my Mom...it seemed to be an unplanned pregnancy late in life? Regardless... abandonment seems to be a core wound for my Mom.

Today...I sit here wondering if my Sister In Law is BPD. She seems to be a child in an adults body...like my Mom. She ALWAYS seems to be dysregulated and she is always melting down. She is 40 and lives with my Mother In Law...she never got married or had kids, I only mention this because she seems to be EXTREMELY bitter about this and "pretends" that it's because she was "taking care of" my mother in law and father in law as he was passing from cancer...however...this is untrue. She was financially and emotionally sucking my in laws dry. She recently flipped out and said she wanted to move out BUT my Mother In law HAS to buy her a house...and despite my husband and other sister in law protesting this (because my Mother In Law is NOT in a great place financially) she agreed to buy her a house. I believe she is doing it because she is so emotionally battered and wants my sister in law out and she sees this as the only way. My sister in law is extremely abusive and blames ALL of her problems on my Mother In law and treats her horribly but my Mother In Law just keeps enabling and paying her way through life.

Today is my Son's birthday and my son(who is turning 10) asked his Aunt if she would come to camp the day of his birthday for cake ...she came at 1pm...my son, his brothers, friend, Dad, and, cousin were all out on our Uncle's boat. She flipped out that the boys were out on the boat when she arrived. She screamed that she wouldn't have drove all that way if they were gonna be out on a boat! The drive is 2 hours, however, I've been to A LOT of Birthdays and cake is typically always served AFTER dinner(which our Uncle was preparing to grill) She just melted down like a child and said she was leaving the gift without seeing my son! I've witnessed a lot of her tantrums and I've always tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and keep trying to have a relationship with her...even when my husband(her brother) didn't want to deal with her anymore. Also, my other sister in law doesn't speak to her anymore. But this is the first time her tantrums have affected my children and I am officially done with her. I'm not a therapist so I can't diagnose her...but it sure seems like bpd. We were all having a great time...she shows up...chaos ensues and my mother in law is left crying and I'm sure my son will be disappointed when he gets back...it just feels TOO familiar to the dynamics with my Mom...but until today I tried REALLY hard to look past her horrible behaviors(in part because they were not AS bad as my Mom's)

Which leads me back to my question...do you think people are born with BPD(because if it is on BOTH sides of the family that is scary to me!) OR does something create BPD? I love my Mother in Law and I dearly loved my my father in law who passed away...but it's almost as if they went the other extreme with their kids! My husband describes a childhood where he had free reign to do what he wanted(he used to ride the city bus all over by age 8!) He also said that his sisters were treated like queens...especially the sister in law Im talking about...maybe golden child? Is it possible to have a golden child without actually being abusive to the other kids? My husband always said he was treated differently because he was a boy and the oldest?

Just interested in anyone's opinion on this? Thank you for reading...I also needed to get it all out!

[Notwendy]

There have been studies that show a genetic predisposition. Yet, my BPD mother is the only one in her immediate families with BPD. I think she may have a distant cousin with it, but siblings, parents, children- no BPD ( thankfully) so it's not definite that a family member will have it.

I also think there's predisposition + environment which is also tempered by resilience which can vary.

For my mother, her extended family seems to have NPD traits. If I could describe them with one word, it would be invalidating. There's a feeling of being invisible around them. They talk about themselves but don't seem to listen, and they seem to appear "perfect".
They are well intentioned. I don't think they are even aware of how others may feel around them but families have their own cultures.

So along comes my mother who is just as intelligent as her family members, but very low functioning. Fortunately in her era, the "norm" was to be a housewife when my parents first married. She did marry a solid man who provided for her,  and so that alone "normalized" her at the time. One main focus of our family was to hide her issues and maintain the image that she was a "normal" wife and mother.

The way I feel around her family though, I feel sorry for her growing up in that family. They are invalidating to begin with, but they have successful careers and talk about their achievements. It's not that she wasn't given the opportunity to have one too. The "women's movement" opened doors for her and we would have been happy to see her pursue some kind of employment of her choosing. It's that her BPD impairs her daily function and I don't think she's capable of handling a job. I think she feels a lot of shame for that. Her family tries to complement her on anything, but it sounds patronizing. She's actually intimidated by them. They aren't bad people and try to be supportive but I think her self esteem was impacted early on.

In addition, I suspect, from some of her behaviors, that someone might have abused her as a child/young teen. Probably not her immediate family but someone like a neighbor or distant relative. I have no proof or any idea who it may be. That could have been the start of her BPD behaviors.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Im1109,

I've been asking myself the same question more and more these days. My daughter has such intense feelings, I suspect she is HSP and it scares the S*** out of me that she could develop BPD somehow... I try not to let it affect the way I parent, and to trust her, but this would be the ultimate irony...

I've also heard, like Notwendy says, that it is a mix of genetic and trauma... But sometimes the trauma could also be rather mild, like constant neglect, even without direct, strong abuse.

I don't know if you've heard of Schema Therapy, but there is one of the schema that is called : entitlement, and basically, it could look as BPD and is fostered by a strong lack of discipline. Parents have to educate their children and when they fail to do it, they raise adult toddlers that still think bullying and screaming will get them what they want because it has always worked with mom and dad. It could be BPD too though, I haven't seen her, but do you reckon it could also be a strong entitlement?

I think that the genetic factor could be High Sensitivity? A traumatized high sensitive person, I think, would be more at risk to develop BPD probably, especially if they have a more active personality type as a child, as opposed to more passive children.

When I read the book on Schema Therapy (Reinventing your life), I swear that BPD is basically the sum of all the schema described in this book, with the abandonment schema at the center of it...

Just some thoughts...

 

[Turkish]

Fear of abandonment isn't the primary emotion. What could drive fear of being abandoned? A history of being so in formative years, or physical and perhaps also emotional neglect?

A recovered pwBPD described his feelings like this, "my feelings don't matter and are worthless; therefore, I don't matter and am worthless, unworthy of being loved." This describes the underlying emotions when being invalidated.

Most of us might react negatively when invalidated, like, "whatever," "that person isn't really listening," or pivot to communicate differently in a conversation. For a pwBPD, invalidation might trigger a core wound which results in the fight or flight response.

Emotional resilience or the lack thereof certainly shouldn't be discounted. People on the autism spectrum may be at risk, for example. Females with ASD tendencies may also be more at risk.


BEHAVIORS: Fear of abandonment?

CAUSE: Borderline Personality Disorder?

The birthday story is certainly frustrating. HCPs (high conflict personalities) can ruin otherwise normal events due to emotionally dysregulating. I guess they didn't hold the boat for her? Abandoned and unloved?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Fear of abandonment isn't the primary emotion. What could drive fear of being abandoned? A history of being so in formative years, or physical and perhaps also emotional neglect?

A recovered pwBPD described his feelings like this, "my feelings don't matter and are worthless; therefore, I don't matter and am worthless, unworthy of being loved." This describes the underlying emotions when being invalidated.

I would say fear of abandonment is not their only emotion, but many experts seem to agree that it is at the core of BPD. I would also say that emotionally neglecting a child is abandoning them.

To your example, a logical follow-up could be: "I am worthless so they will abandon me." Hence the frantic efforts to avoid abandonment, real or imagined.

Abandonment is an important trigger of my mother, she fears it and is strongly triggered by it, she still talks, thirty years later about how my father and her own father abandoned her. She doesn't seem to have strong object permanence so someone she loves leaving always seem to dysregulate her, putting her in a state or emotional arousal. She starts abusing people, mostly her primary caretaker (my stepfather). Last time I saw her, I identified her dysregulation started when I left for a week. She took it badly to be contradicted before that, but she could control herself and still come back to her senses. Me leaving for a week to visit my in-laws though... When I came back, she was just not the same person and was extremely anxious. The crisis and abuse started. Nothing happened in between. My leaving with my children, and her realizing we would leave again, is what started the episode.

This being said, all pwBPD are different, so it might be that the triggers vary too. However, experts also states fear of abandonment is the main driver of BPD (https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/mental-health-disorders/personality-disorders/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd), so I am curious about why you say it is not at the center of BPD? Is it that, for you, it seems to be more a symptom than a cause?

Most of us might react negatively when invalidated, like, "whatever," "that person isn't really listening," or pivot to communicate differently in a conversation. For a pwBPD, invalidation might trigger a core wound which results in the fight or flight response.

For me, and I reckon I am not the only one, being invalidated or met by a silence response after showing vulnerability can also triggers a flight/freeze response and my C-PTSD. I can contain myself better than a borderline, and I don't, or very rarely lash out on people, and if I do, I can stop myself and ask for space to calm myself down. But I am mainly a freeze/flight, while my mother is an active, fight person. When triggered, she automatically lashes out and it is everyone's fault but hers.

I am not borderline, but I am HSP though, and do deal with strong switch of emotions and high sensitivity of other's emotions. I am just coming back from a week-end when I wasn't able to differentiate between myself and someone else, and I had a lot to process coming back from there. I sometimes lose myself in others, especially when tired and not completely centered, but my therapist was clear that I am NOT borderline.

Being a bit tired can also triggers strong C-PTSD symptoms and I can become a tornado, like my mother. I have a thicker skin and only precise triggers, but when I am triggered in my C-PTSD though, I suffer immensely too and I also feel like I don't matter, and suicide ideation can start appearing if I don't actively jump back into self-care mode.

I think we have to be cautious not to mix strong emotions/strong sensitivity/Autism/C-PTSD and the borderline personality disorder. HSPs also feel immense pain, and could potentially be labeled as "quiet BPD" but I reckon they don't abuse people and they can change, they are not controlled by a disorder.

[zachira]

My large extended family is full of disordered people, several who would surely meet the criteria for a diagnosis by a qualified professional of either BPD and/or NPD. You are asking if there is a cause of BPD. From my experiences with my big extended family from both parents, I would say that the chances of having either BPD or NPD are greatly increased by having a really bad temper starting at birth. I think some of my family members might be diagnosed earlier in life as having Intermittent Explosive Disorder. I have seen family members who had terrible tempers as children, yet were lucky to have the right kind of family environment (particularly a warm mother who reinforced healthy regulation of emotions in their children), who did not end up having a personality disorder. All my family members who have diagnosable BPD and/or NPD come from narcissistic families, in which members are shamed for having feelings, and everyone has a rigid role to play, including being chosen at an early age to be either a golden child or a scapegoat.

[lm1109]

Your responses have all been really helpful to me! Thank you so much!

I suppose in the end it doesn't actually matter if my sister in law is BPD or not. What matters is that I recognize that her reaction and rage was extremely triggering for me. We were all having a good time and the next thing you know she shows up and it's raging and tears... I just can't take it anymore...from anyone. I know that there are people who genuinely do not have the capacity to regulate...and I have empathy...but my nervous system is shot and I feel beat down. I am trying REALLY hard to find peace in my life and I just can't handle anyone's inability to self regulate anymore... especially on my son's birthday! When we got home I also opened the mail to find a birthday card to my son from parents(NC for about 8 months) nothing was written in it but it was signed "With Love, Grandma and Grandpa" I notice this because when my Mom got mad at me last year(for setting healthy boundaries) she gave me a card and my Son's(same son) birthday card at the same time...mine was signed "with love" and my son's was signed "We love you SOO much, xoxo" It's her blatant way of showing that her love is NOT conditional... I "laughed it off" then but now of course my son is reduced to "with love" as well...because she apparently has so much disdain for me(the Scapegoat) that she can't even love my child. I just wish she had sent nothing at all...I don't even want to give it to him and get him thinking about them again. In 8 months my parents have NOT tried AT ALL to reach out to them or asked about them. They are not sorry for anything and they have never been and never will be loving grandparents. I just feel so exhausted by it all right now!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Im1109,

Think about it this way... how harder it would be if your mother loved him, and were all about him and made you feel guilty about taking them away from her, and unable to let go, and always on your back about him, coming to your house to see her grandchildren, making drama...

It is counterintuitive, but with the level of abuse she put you through, maybe it is better that she doesn't love them SOO much. I second not giving it to him. What would be the point anyway? The letter was probably not even aimed at him, but at you.

Be angry. F*ck that Bit*h !

Then... back to self-care. Do your yoga, back into your own body.
Also F*ck your sister-in-law for making your son's day about her, maybe next time she doesn't get an invite? Who knows... it got lost in the mail maybe... You don't have to tolerate her tamper tantrums.

Be angry. Live it. You have a right to it, and you are right. It sucks that she acted this way. I second this.

Now back to self care...  

Will you let her know her behavior was inappropriate? What does your husband think of this?

Also, did your son enjoy his birthday at least? Minus the drama? Kids are resilient... How did he like the boat trip? And his gifts?

[lm1109]

Thanks for the support. My son had an amazing Birthday...despite the drama. I do not plan on speaking to my sister in law about her behavior...I don't believe it would do any good anyway...I don't believe she would take accountability. Next year...we will most likely do our own thing for his birthday and not try to incorporate family...which sadly...is how we have always done their birthdays(parties with just the kids friends or little trips, etc) I never felt comfortable mixing my BPD Mom and family into special days like my kids birthday parties...because unfortunately some adults can't even let a child shine on their birthday!

BEHAVIORS: Fear of abandonment?

CAUSE: Borderline Personality Disorder?

I got a chance to read some of these threads and found a lot of really good info! Thanks for sharing!

I do believe that the environment we grow up in is probably the main factor of BPD development... I certainly had fleas from my own upbringing! While I am sure there is a genetic predisposition...I wonder if teaching children early on to self regulate, manage their emotions, practice empathy, etc could prevent it or maybe manage it if caught early enough...I certainly hope so!

[zachira]

You are doing everything to give your children the right foundation for becoming healthy happy adults. In my family, those with tendencies towards personality disorders are the children who are the most difficult to parent: regular meltdowns and defying the parent. The parents who role model healthy behaviors and do not enable the BPD like behaviors of their children have mostly ended up with healthy children, though sometimes the strong genetic predisposition towards having a personality disorder does not prevent the child from becoming an adult with significant behavioral challenges. I am hoping that your children do not have any genetic predisposition towards having a personality disorder and your healthy parenting will be enough, and in most cases, it will be. If you ever become concerned about unhealthy behaviors of your children, getting some professional help as soon as possible, could make big differences in the outcome. I admire how you have learned on your own how to be a loving parent to your children and how to protect them from unsafe family members. I wish I had had parents and family members who put my wellbeing first when I was a child instead of reversing the roles of adults and children.

[Turkish]

For my mom: being raised by a physically, verbally, emotionally, and sexually (to the girls) father. Plus bring orphaned at 12 by her mother, and fully at 14 by her father (good riddance, SYIH). Her older siblings had moved out by then. Her one brother and sister were OK, but the next oldest brother might have been NPD.

My ex was the second eldest child (1 younger sister and 3 younger brothers). She told me that there's a term in Spanish that doesn't translate exactly, but it was a child who stamps her feet. She wasn't exactly the golden child but yet enlisted to raise her siblings. That dynamic was going on still when I met her. The youngest brothers were 9 and 13.

Dad was a serial cheater. She caught him in bed with another woman when she was younger than 10. Violent. Though a victim, her mother was a Hermit-Waif. A few years after we split, my ex implied that she was a victim of covert incest without using that term. Her dad had left to America for many years. So who would their mother turn to for emotional support?

Our son was diagnosed with ASD1 5 years ago. Something like what they used to call Asperger's. At 12 now, you couldn't tell. He hasn't had a meltdown in years. He knows it, but says, "I'm just a normal kid."

When my mom was living with us and S12 was 7, we didn't get ice cream for some reason. S had an epic meltdown in the car. It even got to me: crying, screaming. It really triggered my mom. I had learned to let him go to his room and calm down, which he did, and was right as rain.

My mom later that night criticized me passive-aggressively. Apropos of nothing, she said, "you know the problem with parents these days? They aren't hard enough on their kids!"

I know how she would have handled it: smacked the crap out of him until he shut up and collapsed into a blubbering mess. All I thought was, "thank God that I wasn't on the spectrum!"

[butter81fly]

I haven't really seen anyone say this yet, but BPD is caused by trauma. Sometimes a person can develop traits if they were raised by someone with BPD, too. But this is why CPTSD and BPD are often taken as the same thing. They're not the same thing, but they're both caused by trauma. A person who has had trauma in their life will not always develop BPD. I would say a lot of why it develops is due to the environment on top of the trauma. Anyway, I don't know if that's super helpful but I thought I'd throw that out there!

[lm1109]

I admire how you have learned on your own how to be a loving parent to your children and how to protect them from unsafe family members. I wish I had had parents and family members who put my wellbeing first when I was a child instead of reversing the roles of adults and children.

Thank you for this. I know I am doing the right thing by protecting them from unsafe family...however...I think my struggle right now is knowing how much truth vs shielding is appropriate. My oldest son is 13 and I've been able to share a bit more with him...we have had discussions about mental illness and the fact that no one can force someone to get help or change. But I struggle with how much to share and how to say things in a way that makes them understand that other peoples problems have nothing to do with him/them. It is a hard line to walk when my kids ask directly if they will ever see my parents again and if my parents have asked to see them. Frankly...I am a full grown adult and I struggle to understand it and now I am tasked with helping my children make sense out of senseless behavior.

As a child my Mom would say things to me about my Grandmother(who I wasn't allowed to see) she would tell me that she didn't want to see me and that other family members didn't care about me or want to see me...of course this was just another layer of abuse and triangulation...but I remember how rejected I felt. I don't want my kids to feel that...so I can't just tell the truth, which is: my mom has no capacity to love anyone and she is using my children as pawns to hurt me and we will most likely not ever see her or my dad again because they are committed to scapegoating me so that they never have to look at themselves and the messes they have created.

It's just so exhausting and I sometimes question wether I am saying the right things...like with my Sister In Law over the weekend...when my son returned and I had to tell him that she left, I simply told him that she wasn't feeling well. It wasn't to protect her it was to protect his feelings and his special day.  It's so complicated!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Frankly...I am a full grown adult and I struggle to understand it and now I am tasked with helping my children make sense out of senseless behavior.

As a child my Mom would say things to me about my Grandmother(who I wasn't allowed to see) she would tell me that she didn't want to see me and that other family members didn't care about me or want to see me...of course this was just another layer of abuse and triangulation...but I remember how rejected I felt. I don't want my kids to feel that...so I can't just tell the truth, which is: my mom has no capacity to love anyone and she is using my children as pawns to hurt me and we will most likely not ever see her or my dad again because they are committed to scapegoating me so that they never have to look at themselves and the messes they have created.

Maybe not right now, but soon enough they will be old enough to understand and grasp the whole picture.

In the mean time, I think doing what you are already doing, preparing the field for this conversation later on, asking validating questions about their feelings, reminding them that it isn't because of them... It is most likely enough for now, and actually potentially the best you could have done. They are living their best life. And you are being an amazingly emotionally present and connected mother for them, providing them with a safe space to be and ask questions.

Were they very close prior to the estrangement? I seem to remember your oldest noticing some bad things about his grandmother talking being your back?

Another point to think about is: did you miss not being close with your own grandparents?

I didn't... I think, sometimes, we see grandparents, especially nowadays, as having a much bigger role than they actually have. And let's be honest that this is a generation of grandparents who are especially involved compared to previous generations..

I think grandparents can take an important role with their grandchildren, like they can remain at a distance.

In the former, I think the kid will welcome them, like they would welcome any safe, loving adult. And In the latter, I just don't feel they would starve for it, especially if they are safely secured with mom and dad, and other family figures and have friends.

Your children did just lose a grandfather they were close with, and they know grief. And maybe part of them would like to find him back through their other set of grandparents too, which might trigger more questions about your parents. Do you think this is possible?  

It wasn't to protect her it was to protect his feelings and his special day.  It's so complicated!

You were not lying. She Truly Was Not Feeling well, and I personally think it was the right call. It was HIS day, and it's ok to keep it light and fun for him. 

[WorkingThroughIt]

My response is purely anecdotal, but my BPD sister and I grew up in the same household under mostly the same conditions and she started showing signs of issues at a young age and I'm just " stressed and depressed"

My dad says there were a few very early signs that she had trouble regulating her emotions. Once while playing a game with him when she was 2 or 3, he was laying on a bed and lifting her like an airplane. She was all for it and having great time until she abruptly decided she wasn't and bit him hard enough on his chest to make him bleed. Then, when I was about a year old, he once caught her trying to train me (like Pavlov's Dogs) to not grab one of my toys by yanking on my hair every time I reached for it. Lots of little things like that throughout the years- if my sister ever decided she was fed up with being somewhere like the mall or a theme park... we were ALL done. She would sulk and throw fits and make the experience so miserable we would end up leaving early to placate her.

We both were neglected a bit, but no huge traumatic events. We did have a verified sociopath for a grandfather, so my best guess has always been that she inherited some gene from him and maybe that neglect kicked it in for her.

[lm1109]

Were they very close prior to the estrangement? I seem to remember your oldest noticing some bad things about his grandmother talking being your back?

Another point to think about is: did you miss not being close with your own grandparents?


No they were not close...but we did see them on Holidays and birthdays...this seems to be the only time my kids ask about them. But sometimes they will have a memory and just ask if we are ever going to see them again.

I did miss being close to my Grandparents...but I didn't know them...so I was able to romanticize having grandparents in my head. As an adult...I sort of assume now that for my Grandparents to raise such a** holes...they were most likely not pleasant people either and I probably didn't miss out on much. However...I had ZERO outside family...no grandparents, aunts, uncle's, cousins, etc. It was a very lonely childhood. I have to remind myself that my kids do not have lonely childhoods...we try to make what family we have work. We also have family friends we get together with...along with my kids friends...we invite them over and take them on fun outings. We work with what we have...I'm not sure my kids miss them so much as they are just confused about it all(join the club ) and it's hard to find the right words for a situation like this...

Your children did just lose a grandfather they were close with, and they know grief. And maybe part of them would like to find him back through their other set of grandparents too, which might trigger more questions about your parents. Do you think this is possible?  



Yes I do think this! But also as sick as it is...I honestly believe this is why my Mom decided to end things and explode now. I made the mistake of being vulnerable after my Father In Law died and asking my Dad to play a bigger role in the kids lives...and my Mom can't handle anyone getting close to my Dad...it's really sick. There is also an element of kicking me when I'm down that always seemed to be there with her. If it EVER seemed like I wanted or needed them they would disappear (even when I was a kid) If I was pulling away or NOT wanting them around she would try to forcefully push herself into my life. I know I'm doing the right thing with NC...and as you said...it probably would be a lot harder if they were trying to see my kids. But I also suppose I feel a sense of waiting...like what's next?

if my sister ever decided she was fed up with being somewhere like the mall or a theme park... we were ALL done. She would sulk and throw fits and make the experience so miserable we would end up leaving early to placate her.

This is interesting...as a parent...I think these are the sort of behaviors to look out for...but it seems to me that the issue is that your parents gave in and gave her the control of the family. Kids will always try to push boundaries...it's how they learn where the boundaries are...it's up to the parents to not give over parental control to a child and give in to placate her. I think that sets a child up to try to control with those sorts of behaviors as an adult. I'm certainly not trying to say anything negative about your parents... I'm sure they did the best they could with a child with behavioral problems and I don't know her or the severity of her behaviors...It just struck me because my husband describes a similar way of handling my sister in law when they were kids(and to this day) and now she is STILL having those same tantrums at 40!

[zachira]

From what I have observed in my family, letting a child have control of the family seems to increase the chances of that child having a personality disorder, along with inborn challenges with controlling emotions (particularly regular meltdowns from an early age with often no apparent cause) and having empathy.