To respond or not to respond to a BPD elderly mom

[Patsy123]

My mother has been a difficult personality for a very long time, and I have come to realize through research that she probably has borderline personality disorder and is a narcissist. I've always thought of her as Mean Girl who never grew up. And, in her defense, she experienced extreme trauma as a teenager. But, even now, into her 70s, she tries to pit family member against each other, has zero empathy and takes everything personally if I dare say no to her. She's a self-proclaimed "proud internet troll" who has shared very personal information about me and my family, which is mortifying and horrible, on a variety of social media threads. And she does things like tells me that her friends believe that my sibling's kids are better looking than mine. I can't trust her. And it's impossible to have a rational conversation with her when she's upset. She's also incredibly gullible and has been victim of multiple financial scams even though I've tried countless times to explain what scams are, why a new "opportunity" is actually a scam and so forth. She definitely truly believes that she can get rich quick.

I have held her at arms' length for quite some time - to protect my mental health and my children. We've had flare ups over the years, but it's generally a cordial relationship when we see each other because I very much limit my interactions with her and share no personal information anymore. She lives nearby, but I do the very barest minimum to maintain a relationship with her.

And that brings me to the latest flare up: The other day she texted me, asking me for my SSN because of an investment opportunity and she wanted to put me down as a beneficiary. I refused to give it to her before I asked some questions, and now she's having an absolute conniption fit over my questions. It's included an angry thread of emails from her and now a phone message where she sounded like she had been or was about to sob. (FWIW, it is a legitimate investment through her financial planner, who I do trust.)

She wants me to call her back so we can talk about all of this. She wants to know why I've been holding her at arms' length. And she wants to "fix" this relationship. After so many years, this relationship can't be fixed. I've never really told her why I hold her at arms' length. The pandemic -- and our dramatic differences in how to handle it -- has made it easier to steer clear of her. And it's, honestly, been wonderful.

When do you know when it's time to just cut your losses and run? Is it ever worth explaining your grievances? I really think explaining my grievances will just make her more defensive and angry. I don't truly believe anything I say will change her. She believes all therapy is a sham. I've unfriended her on all social media, blocked notifications on my phone when she texts and only listen to her voice mails when I'm in the right headspace (which can sometimes be several days later). But just seeing that she's left a voicemail causes me extreme anxiety. Every holiday is a drag because I have to spend some of it with her. And I feel so much guilt and begin to think that everything I've had to deal with isn't so bad when I know it is. 

Anyway, just writing this out -- and knowing that I'm not alone with all of this -- is comforting. I appreciate this space. Thank you for any advice.

[pursuingJoy]

  hi Patsy123. We're glad you're here, you're in good company. 

Do you want to be a beneficiary? I'm inclined to turn down any gifts or favors from my BPD person, it usually leaves me indebted and complicates things.

It wouldn't help me to air grievances with my BPD MIL. I tried having open, honest and civil conversations three times. Two changed nothing, and the last one blew up in my face.

Whether you stay low contact, go no contact, or maintain the boundaries you have and just get support - that's up to you. We trust you to know what you need and when. Whatever you choose, it doesn't have to be permanent. Making decisions for a 'season' helps take the pressure off.

Your mom will perceive it as abandonment and she will be triggered. That doesn't mean what she feels is true, or that you need to feel guilty. Any additional limitations will make things worse for a time. I can say from experience that boundaries plus 3 years of low contact actually improved my relationship with my MIL.

What do you want? What's your next step?

[Patsy123]

In my perfect world, she'd move back to her hometown with her siblings, and our communication would be very limited going forward. I'd really feel fine if I didn't really see her much anymore. And I have argued that the money she plans to give to me and my sibling would be best spent on her because she has frittered so much of her money away on scams. I don't really believe, in the end, that we'll get anything because she will have spent it. So "being a beneficiary" is mostly going through the motions. Telling her I don't want any of her money would just throw some more kindling on the fire at the moment. But all these thoughts give me tremendous guilt.

But you are affirming my thought that an airing of grievances will probably help nobody here ...

[pursuingJoy]

But all these thoughts give me tremendous guilt.

Can you tell us more what you feel guilty about? It's normal and common to feel guilt. BPD parents learn to use FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) to control their kids. Guilt is a feeling, and like many feelings, it can be informative but not necessarily true. Would you want your kids feeling guilty for the same? If not, let that guide your next steps. It takes time to rewire thinking but it is possible!  

But you are affirming my thought that an airing of grievances will probably help nobody here ...

Boundaries usually work better than airing grievances. My MIL told me that she'd designed her own house and would build it on our property. That was a nope. That conflict necessitated strong boundaries which she found offensive for two years. She calmed down eventually, moved to the city near her siblings and cousins, and is much happier for it. She never would have chosen living with her siblings if I hadn't set boundaries. It was awkward and miserable for H, MIL and me for a good year but boundaries paid off in dividends.

The reality is that my MIL believes she needs my H nearby to make every choice and cater to her needs. She feels that she needs his full attention to be happy. That's simply not true. She's capable, lives independently, finds lots of people to cater to her, and has plenty of family to lean on. She's a survivor and will find ways to make it. She doesn't believe it, but I do, and I make choices with that in mind.

Can you think of some practical ways you can set boundaries? Helps to start from a value. My values: protect the peace and sanctity of my home, protect my marriage from the conflict she creates, and ensure that interactions were as positive as possible. That translated to boundaries: limiting visits to structured/scheduled activities, with other people, and no overnight visits with downtime.  What are your values? How can you design boundaries around them?

I acknowledge that this process of boundary setting has been easier for me than my husband. I so admire children of BPD parents who carry the heavy weight of expectation their parents put on them, and still identify these hard issues and make efforts to address them. My H was soo uncomfortable and miserable the past two years, desperately wanted to keep the peace. "Just let it go. Just talk to her and explain. Just forgive her already." He still doesn't understand. Boundary setting has been a huge challenge for him and I empathize. I admire all that you've processed to get where you are. Give yourself a big hug. Not everyone has your courage and I hope you're proud of you.

[Notwendy]

Money is a means of control for BPD mother and it's been a source of frustrating communications between us ( her grown children ) and her since she became a widow. Dad planned well for their elder years. Our concern was that we know she mismanages money and we want this to be there for her as she needs it and not be mismanaged. In short, any attempts on our part were thwarted. She will not allow us to have any information about her finances.

However, we are the next of kin. Listing a beneficiary on an account is something everyone needs to do. So we have agreed to be POA and be her beneficiaries because that is what makes sense, but we also have stayed away from any kind of involvement in her finances as any attempts to help her manage them have resulted in conflict. We have made it clear from the beginning that we want her money to go to her but that isn't the point for her. She needs to be in complete control.

We also refuse any offers for money or gifts from her. We don't want to engage in any drama with her. You would think she'd be relieved that we don't want her money. That means she could trust us to help. She often does this interchange with us- if she asks if we want something of hers, and we say yes- she then makes a point of us not getting it. She wants us to want it, and she wants to have control over whether we get it or not. If we say we don't want it, she doesn't like that response.

This kind of thing may be a reason your mother got upset when you didn't give her the SS#.

My mother hasn't done this with us, but a while back she told me she listed a sibling as beneficiary on an account but she would not let us ask about it at the bank or know how much is in it. All we wanted was to know about it and where it was but she refused that information. Then she said she spent it. So I don't know if it ever existed or not.

This is what I would do if I were in your shoes. I think it makes sense to list a family member as beneficiary as a formality. I think one can do that without engaging in drama. If that's not possible then don't do it.


I would not give her the SS# directly. I'd ask for the name and contact information of the person assisting her with the investment and ask to speak to them directly. I would also request a copy of the document. This is the boundary: it's my information. If my name and information is to be on any document, I need to know what it is and have a copy.

But that is me- here are some possible boundaries:

If you don't want to be the beneficiary, then don't agree.

If you are willing to be the beneficiary, then you can set your criteria for that.

If she doesn't agree, then you don't do it.

[zachira]

You are not alone in your anguish in having to deal with a mother with BPD and having to protect yourself from all her distressing behaviors. You are wondering about when to cut your losses and run. I am in the process of going low contact and no contact with all of my immediate family members and large extended family members who are all narcissists to different degrees and/or flying monkeys, enablers of the abusers. I have been through a lot of the types of distressing times that you are describing. My mother who is deceased had BPD. In the last years before my mother died when she was in severe mental and physical decline, and after she died, I was shocked beyond belief learning what my NPD sister and BPD brother and the rest of the extended family who enable them are capable of when it comes to abusing me and other family members who are also scapegoats like I am. It is terribly painful to make a decision to cut out a family member from your life, especially if this person is your mother. The reality most of the time, is it is nearly impossible to have a normal relationship with anybody who is part of the family or people connected to it, if you decide to go no contact with anybody, especially a BPD mother. I have been beyond shocked at how everybody in my extended family supports the dysfunctional family members, and I realize this is because if they didn't, they would have to take a look at their enabling and abusive behaviors. Is there anybody in your family who you can count on to be there for you and not be an enabler for your mother's bad behaviors and pass on information about you to her?

[Patsy123]

Thank you for all of this. I have been setting a lot of boundaries.

To keep up some connection, I do invite her to my kids' activities (recitals, concerts, etc.). This avoids opportunity for lots of conversation, but I still feel like I'm not totally shutting her out. 

I also see her on holidays, birthdays. I dread any holiday that I spend with her because I never know what might happen. Sometimes it's fine. Often, it isn't. 

We generally don't have any other contact (though she lives 10 minute away).

And I definitely will never give her my SSN. I'll give it to her trustworthy financial advisor. She definitely feels like she's controlling me with her money. Though, frankly, I don't need it. It's a drop in the bucket, based on what I've already saved. And I've told her that she should use it on herself since she's lost so much money in scams. But then she gets teary and talks about how her dad left her money and she wants to continue the tradition and so forth.

Can you tell us more what you feel guilty about? It's normal and common to feel guilt. BPD parents learn to use FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) to control their kids. Guilt is a feeling, and like many feelings, it can be informative but not necessarily true. Would you want your kids feeling guilty for the same? If not, let that guide your next steps. It takes time to rewire thinking but it is possible!

I'm not sure if I quoted this correctly, but what I'm reading on here is really ringing true for me right now. I feel guilt because maybe, as she tells me, she's not so bad. That all the things she does are little, tiny things that aren't that big of a deal. Maybe I do take everything too seriously. Maybe I don't want a relationship with her because we disagree on political issues ,she tells me. And it is correct that I find many of her views absolutely abhorrent and extremely counter to the way I live my life and raise my kids. So maybe that's a me problem. Maybe I should just try to get along?

So I feel guilt because maybe I am the problem. I've never been physically abused. I was fed and clothed and given a great education. I have a good job and great little family of my own. That if my life is so good, how could she be so bad? And is she bad? She doesn't seem so bad compared to other stories on here. She isn't violent. She doesn't often yell. It's the quiet things she does and says that over time just add up to so much. I've actually started up a folder of the things she's done or emails she's sent, so when I'm second guessing myself, I can look at them.

And, frankly, I'm terrified that I might become my mom. My kids, who are teens, have figured out on their own that she's a difficult person, and I've actually had conversations with them that if I ever become like her that they need to shut me down. And they've seen me shut her down. But then it turns into angry emails or texts or a teary phone call from her (that they don't see or hear). It's very manipulative. So no - I would not want my kids to feel guilty for the same thing.

I am thankful that I have a lot of support from my sibling (we text each other our mom stories); my dad, who is divorced from her; and my husband and kids. I've never really had much of a relationship with family on her side because they lived far away from where I grew up. So there's no love lost there, but I do know she tells them I'm hateful. I've gotten a few FB messages from an aunt, who I have now blocked. But that part is not a big deal to me.

I'm feeling better about all of this since I originally posted. I have not returned her call or texted her. I've reached out to a therapist and hope to get in to see her sooner than later, so I can figure out what's next. But, again, just understanding what FOG is and beginning to get to the heart of my feelings on this by reading posts on here has been so helpful.

[beatricex]

hi Patsy123,

When do you know when it's time to just cut your losses and run?  You post it to a message board maybe NC is the way?...then you just know it's time to cut your losses and run.

Is it ever worth explaining your grievances? No

I really think explaining my grievances will just make her more defensive and angry. Correct

I don't truly believe anything I say will change her.  Exactly

Honestly, I would just give my mom the wrong social security number and then play dumb when she questioned it (I mean come on, my mom has mine memorized I'm sure - one of my worst fears is she'll try to apply for credit with it).  If questioned "oh.  are you serious?  Why would I give that to you?  I don't want you to steal my credit!" (said lightly, humorously, I have learned to never get in the same emotional space as my mom, I keep it all light when she goes serious).  Think "when she goes low, I go high," if you need to remember to do this.  And..  sometimes you fight fire with fire - personally my mom is the queen at playing dumb, so I sometimes do it back to her just to let her know I'm smarter. 

My mom is that terrible combo of BPD and NPD too.  I hope you get some comfort from your therapist.
b

[pursuingJoy]

It's the quiet things she does and says that over time just add up to so much.

BPD shows up in different ways and a lot of us here agree that the pitiful 'waif' presentations are sometimes the hardest to deal with. Plausible deniability combined with a 'drip drip drip' of gaslighting, fear, obligation and guilt wears you down so slowly, you don't even realize it's happening. After a while, it might feel normal. No one thing they do is so horrific to merit a drastic response, right? The drip drip approach is really effective, and that's why they use it - it gets the results they want.

I've actually started up a folder of the things she's done or emails she's sent, so when I'm second guessing myself, I can look at them.

So smart! Also pay attention to your body - anxiety, tensing muscles, clenching fists, breathing faster - sometimes our bodies know before we do that something's wrong.

And, frankly, I'm terrified that I might become my mom.

That won't happen but it's worth monitoring behaviors you may have inadvertently picked up. My H doesn't have BPD, but he exhibits learned behaviors. The different is when I set boundaries, he can change his behavior, where his mom cannot. Sounds like you're open to feedback. You'll be fine!

I am thankful that I have a lot of support from my sibling (we text each other our mom stories); my dad, who is divorced from her; and my husband and kids.

Talking about it was the most important thing for me. I'd been made to feel responsible, oversensitive and crazy for a long time, until I broke down and shared an incident in a random Facebook group. People there affirmed that MIL's behavior wasn't ok, which led to counseling and here. Keep talking. 

Also, I hear you on the holidays. To my core. Structured visits help quite a bit, as does visiting her at her house - that way I can leave when I need to and protect the energy in my home.

How do you see things progressing as she ages?

[Patsy123]

How do you see things progressing as she ages?

Well - her tendencies are definitely getting worse as she ages. Or, I'm getting more wary of her and everything she says. I think it's a little bit of both. So this is all making everything more difficult.

What I want is this: A relationship with a lot of boundaries that I don't regret when she is gone. I worry that I might regret cutting ties completely. Not sure if I truly will regret it or if this is my feelings of guilt rearing its ugly head again. 
 

[Notwendy]

I understand. I also want to navigate this relationship with the best of intentions. I have thought about regret with regards to my father. I really did try my best with what I knew at the time. There were circumstances beyond my control that limited my ability to visit him more during the time he was ill. The times I did visit were difficult due to my parents being angry at me. I tried to make things right with him.

My BPD mother has been critical that I didn't visit him enough, even though my parents were aware of these other circumstances. When I mentioned that I called him, a lot, her reply was "that wasn't enough".

I wonder how much is regret and how much is their perception that what I could do was "not enough". What could have "been enough"?

I said some things to BPD mother in moments of stress that I would not have said if I had known more about BPD dynamics. However, I know I didn't stop trying to connect positively with my father. It was my parents who chose to judge me differently.

I don't know if it makes sense to have to regret for "not enough" when their standard for enough was beyond my capability at the time.