Help Parent not respecting boundaries

[Depression = 72% of members]

Later today I’m flying out to visit cousins who live about 2 hours from my parents.  I offered to take my parents to lunch tomorrow which is an olive branch.  Ubpd mom is now insistent that I spend tonight at her house rather than with my cousin.  I remained firm and told both parents I had already made plans with my cousin.  I’ve heard nothing back which is odd.  So I have a strong hunch mother will be at the airport waiting for me in a surprise attack.  She has a past history of what I call sneak attacks (unannounced/unwelcomed visits).  Am I right in thinking if she does this to play it calm and tell her I will see her tomorrow at lunch if she wants to meet then?  She will have driven 2 hours if she does this.  Queen of guilt trips.  Any advice would be appreciated.  I’m so tired of this! Thanks for listening 

[Nopuppets]

Later today I’m flying out to visit cousins who live about 2 hours from my parents.  I offered to take my parents to lunch tomorrow which is an olive branch.  Ubpd mom is now insistent that I spend tonight at her house rather than with my cousin.  I remained firm and told both parents I had already made plans with my cousin.  I’ve heard nothing back which is odd.  So I have a strong hunch mother will be at the airport waiting for me in a surprise attack.  She has a past history of what I call sneak attacks (unannounced/unwelcomed visits).  Am I right in thinking if she does this to play it calm and tell her I will see her tomorrow at lunch if she wants to meet then?  She will have driven 2 hours if she does this.  Queen of guilt trips.  Any advice would be appreciated.  I’m so tired of this! Thanks for listening 

[Methuen]

You are planning for the worst case scenario.  There is a reason we all do this.

I’m trying to think of what could throw her off her game to control, and maybe to create chaos. (Even if the chas isn’t intentionally planned it’s usually the result).

Humour?

Wow!  Nice to see you mom!  What a surprise! You must have come to the city to do some shopping!  Chitchat and get into your taxi.

When she objects, remind her gently and kindly that she decided to take the two hour drive, and enjoy her shopping!  Remind her of the lunch plan tomorrow. That’s the olive branch.  

Alternatively, she could drive you to your cousins if you could trust her to do that.

Stay in very public areas where she is less likely to create a public scene.  If necessary, use the washroom before you get to baggage carousel.  

If perchance you only have carry-on, wear a disguise and slip away staying in the shadows without even looking for her.  That way there is no eye  contact.  If this last idea holds any merit for you, change your walk too. 

Let us know how it goes.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Methuen gave you some very good advices here!

Update us, let us know how it went. Enjoy your visit with your cousins !

[beatricex]

Do what Methuen suggests.  Wear sunglasses to avoid eye contact.  If all else fails, RUN to the bathroom.  Report a bad case of 24 hour stomach flu.  Hope it gets better by lunch tomorrow.  Call cousins ahead of time and warn them you are fine, but just need a break from "mom."

creativity is the hallmark of an adult daughter of a mom with BPD 

[pursuingJoy]

Am I right in thinking if she does this to play it calm and tell her I will see her tomorrow at lunch if she wants to meet then?  She will have driven 2 hours if she does this. 

This is a solid plan, and driving 2 hrs would have been her choice.  How are things going? Did she show up?

[Nopuppets]

Thank you all for being my sounding board and for your advice!  So, she didn’t show up.  She also refused to meet for lunch since I spent the night at my cousin’s house instead of her house.  Yes, she expected me to drive 2 hours to spend the night, meaning I would not get to see my one cousin.  The really crappy part of this is somehow she convinced my dad to go along with her.  That is concerning to me because he is starting to show signs of dementia.  I suppose she is trying to use him to get to me.  It all just seems so childish. 

[yamada]

its childish because it is..She is having a sulk tantrum, hands on hips and stamping foot..."I am not talking too you"  let it go..Sometimes changes can start quietly.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It all just seems so childish.  

Yes, it has been said before in other posts and worth repeating here because this is a perfect example of it:

PwBPD have the emotional maturity of young children. So yes, they are childish in nature.

The bad part is: angry children can be very cruel... when they are children, it is because they don't know any better, they express their anger in the ways they can find and we can usually shake it off and support them through, so that they learn to better regulate themselves. Because they are so small, and cute, and wonders to be around when in a good mood.

When they are adult acting like this though, and our mothers especially, who raised us and were supposed to teach US how to self regulate... It is just painful and cruel and very hard to shake off. Plus, it was never our role to begin with to support them and educate them about feelings... We end up parenting them, feeling guilt because they act as young children, and live in fear of the next tantrum... Truly, tough love is often needed.

Good work on upholding your boundary!

How do you feel about the fact that you missed a lunch with your parents?

[Methuen]

Her refusing to meet you for lunch is “mean girl” behavior.  Yes- also childish.  Let her own it.  It’s a typical BPD bad decision.  It’s really about control right?  It had to be her way, or not at all.

The natural consequence for her is to miss out on a lunch with you.  Too bad about your dad - but he probably had no choice.  

You extended the lunch invitation.  They refused.  That’s on them .  You did the right thing here and held your boundary. Good for you.  This is a win that’ you saw your plan through, despite her shenanigans.

Stay in the moment and Enjoy your time with your cousin!

[Nopuppets]

Thank you all for your support.  I’m not sure what I would do without this wonderful group of people!  One of you asked how I felt to miss the lunch.  I was sad not to see my dad as I miss him and worry about him.  I felt relieved not having to see her.  We had a death in the family and the main reason for my trip was to go and offer support to my one cousin and her family.  So that further showcases how childish mother’s behavior really is.  Hugs to all of you 

[Nopuppets]

Update..  I have since found out mother checked behind my back to see how long I was at my cousin's house.  Like she expected to catch me lying to her.  And, she still hasn’t had the courtesy to respond to my message, a week later.  I hate that father is in the cross hairs here.  However, I suppose the best thing to do is to leave the ball in her court and wait for her to respond right?  This is all about to drive me crazy.  I feel like she is using my father as a pawn in her ugly game.

[Couscous]

Hi Nopuppets,

I used to be big on olive branches. It didn’t mater that they were always refused. I just couldn’t feel OK if my family thought that I was mean and selfish for having boundaries. Then I figured out that it did not matter how many olive branches I extended — they will always believe that I am mean and selfish for having boundaries, and I have no ability to convince them, against their will, that their story about me isn’t true, and I had to be willing to sit with the discomfort of that reality.

This quote from the Three Faces of Victim article really drives this point home:
Remember there will be times when we may be seen as the persecutor. Our challenge is to stay in touch with our truth and allow others the right (and they do have the right) to have their story. The two versions; your story and their story, do not have to match for you to be happy.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Update..  I have since found out mother checked behind my back to see how long I was at my cousin's house.  Like she expected to catch me lying to her.  And, she still hasn’t had the courtesy to respond to my message, a week later.  I hate that father is in the cross hairs here.  However, I suppose the best thing to do is to leave the ball in her court and wait for her to respond right?  This is all about to drive me crazy.  I feel like she is using my father as a pawn in her ugly game.

Can I ask how is to your father in the cross hairs? Or rather what makes you say this? Is it possible you were brought up somehow feeling responsible to "save him" from her?

She is the one that decided not to go to lunch, not you and you are not responsible for her current state. Silent treatment is a huge weapon of my mother as well... Once when I was staying at her house, I wrote her, trying to solve a misunderstanding, and she never answered and when she came back, she kept ignoring me until she said : I don't want to hear anything you have to say and I will not read your messages! To which I answered: well maybe you should so that we can solve this... She wouldn't have any of it... And my messages were actually very understansing and compassionate.  

All this to say: Nothing you do, nor say, will be good enough for her unless you fall on your knees and act guilty, which YOU ARE NOT. You have nothing to be ashamed of, nor to feel guilty about. You were always clear about the reason of your visit, and her reaction is NOT your fault.

If you can, I'd try to enjoy the silent treatment as a nice break for introspection. Analyse your thoughts. Is it FOG? Is it abandonment? Is the silence treatment putting you in an emotional flashback state?

Take care of yourself in all this, connect within, find little you and give her a big hug for me, will you?

[Nopuppets]

Thank you both.  As always, I’m so grateful for your support and insight 

I do believe I am still in the mode of saving my father.  I have invited him to come and visit my family.  If he decides not to come because she will explode, well that’s his decision.  And I do think her FOG still gets to me, as much as I try not to let it.

I will try being more present in the moment and enjoying the break.   

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks for the update, Nopuppets. Great introspection, and I'm glad you're here.

Couscous I needed that quote today! 

[Nopuppets]

Well, I finally heard from mother after a week and 1/2.  She sent an email with a picture of a distant cousin's family.  She never actually responded to my offering to treat for lunch.  Is this her way of trying to get back in touch after not responding?  I’m confused as to why I would get a random email from her ?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Well, I finally heard from mother after a week and 1/2.  She sent an email with a picture of a distant cousin's family.  She never actually responded to my offering to treat for lunch.  Is this her way of trying to get back in touch after not responding?  I’m confused as to why I would get a random email from her ?

Yes, this is a behavior that has been seen often on this board.

BPD mothers fear abandonment above all else. So often, after a crisis, after drama, their favorite solution is to ignore what happened and move on to something else, and not talk about it.

My mother do that do, but she keeps tracks of the faults, and they all come out at the next crisis, under the guise of blame and : this is who you are! Then when she is calm, it's like nothing happened. Rinse and repeat.

It seems to me that they hold onto resentment, but can fake it in calm periods just to keep you in their life, if that makes sense?

This is hard to do for non-BPD though, because when we are hurt, communication is our main way to solve the issues, until we reach a compromise, a common understanding that solves the issue for everyone. With BPD, it's the contrary, because they can't acknowledge other's emotions, it triggers shame, which they can't bear. So it seems easier for them not to talk about it, erase the board, and start again.

[Methuen]

To answer your question, yes.  

I support what RiverW0lf is saying.  

After their anger stage is passed, the fear of abandonment creeps back.  When she can’t manage that anymore, she decides to reply to your email - but not answer your question because she needs to control the conversation.  She wants contact again, but in a way she doesn’t have to acknowledge her behavior because of the shame.

That’s speculation on my part, based on my experience.  I’m no psych, but lots of reading and experience.  

These bouts of sweeping under the carpet and pretending it never happened were crazy making dysfunction for me.

When my father was alive and well,  he had a way of telling her “that’s enough”.  More recently my H had a “big talk’ with her as did the home care supervisor.  I think she figured out her bad behavior wasn’t working for her and if she kept it up she might not be able to stay in her inependent living situation.  

I however can’t recall ever being able to resolve a conflict with her through rational communication. Probably because she can’t tolerate me having  different thoughts than her.  That’s probably invalidating and she gets triggered all over again.  

So under the carpet it goes.  

[Couscous]

  Is this her way of trying to get back in touch after not responding? 

No, or rather, not in the way that you might be thinking. She’s not actually seeking genuine connection. This is her next move in the game, and an attempt to keep you hooked. The best way to not get hooked is to not respond — if you are able to tolerate the anxiety that this may provoke in you. What’s important for you to remember here is that it is not your job to protect her from her own emotions. If your not responding triggers (extreme) separation anxiety for her, well, that’s something she is going to have to manage without you.

[Nopuppets]

Thank you all for your input.  It’s making more sense to me now with the way she reacts.  I’m going to think about if I genuinely want to respond or not.  I’m leaning toward no.  At some point my father will most likely ask me to call her.  I will need to stay firm with him on not getting caught in the drama triangle!

[Couscous]

At some point my father will most likely ask me to call her.  I will need to stay firm with him on not getting caught in the drama triangle!

You could make some popcorn in advance to have ready for when he does…

But wow, our fathers all seem to have a knight in shining armor complex, don’t they?

[Methuen]

This is her next move in the game, and an attempt to keep you hooked. The best way to not get hooked is to not respond — if you are able to tolerate the anxiety that this may provoke in you. What’s important for you to remember here is that it is not your job to protect her from her own emotions. If your not responding triggers (extreme) separation anxiety for her, well, that’s something she is going to have to manage without you.

This is great advice.  Especially the part on it  not being your job to protect her from her emotions.  

Are you familiar with “intermittent reinforcement “? This is one of my mainstay coping mechanisms to texts and emails.

Sometimes there are some texts that don’t need or deserve a response.  I don’t reply to those.

Sometimes there are textxs I respond to promptly because of the nature or content.  

And sometimes there are texts that I take a day or two to think about before crafting a purely logical response.

It ends  up being intermittent reinforcement to her texts.

She didn’t like it at first.  But I stuck with it, and now I think she’s mostly used to it because I’m busy and it’s just the  way it is.  

As Couscous said, she has to figure out how to deal with her own emotions, and we need to give our mom’s  that opportunity   to figure it out.

So I think what I’m saying is it doesn’t have to be all or nothing as to whether or not you reply.  You can reply to what you want/need to reply to, and whenever it suits you.  I’m not sure if this makes sense.

Any text that triggers  an emotional reaction from me I wait and sit on for at least a day before I decide whether or not to respond, and what to say ( if I say anything).

On the other hand if she sends a text or email that is harmless or interesting, I “reinforce” her by responding promptly, because those are more of the kinds of texts or emails  I want.

The one’s where she says stupid or inappropriate things I don’t bother responding to.  For example, all 5 adults in my house have Covid right now.  Her recent text was “ who is sleeping with who”? Really?  We’re all sick with Covid and that’s your question? That didn’t get a response.  

[seekingpeace2day]

I'm sorry for your difficulties and find this a very helpful thread, to which I can relate. My mother STILL tries to save my uBPD father!

 

[seekingpeace2day]

No, or rather, not in the way that you might be thinking. She’s not actually seeking genuine connection. This is her next move in the game, and an attempt to keep you hooked. The best way to not get hooked is to not respond — if you are able to tolerate the anxiety that this may provoke in you. What’s important for you to remember here is that it is not your job to protect her from her own emotions. If your not responding triggers (extreme) separation anxiety for her, well, that’s something she is going to have to manage without you.

I am new to this Forum and do not want to hijack Nopuppets' thread. Please let me know if I should start a new thread.

Couscous, Can you please say more about Nopuppets' mother trying to keep her hooked? I can relate to Nopuppets' experience - my uBPD/uNPD father has many times cc'ed me on emails boasting about family activities to which I was not invited and did not even know were happening, or just cc's me on emails for no apparent reason (without ever mentioning me or my wife and son). What is the game/why would they do this, unless to hurt? To maintain connection? To communicate that they really wish we were there? Thanks.

Metheun, Brilliant. I am adopting this approach immediately!

[Couscous]

Couscous, Can you please say more about Nopuppets' mother trying to keep her hooked? I can relate to Nopuppets' experience - my uBPD/uNPD father has many times cc'ed me on emails boasting about family activities to which I was not invited and did not even know were happening, or just cc's me on emails for no apparent reason (without ever mentioning me or my wife and son). What is the game/why would they do this, unless to hurt? To maintain connection? To communicate that they really wish we were there? Thanks.

Welcome!

What your father is doing is known as scapegoating, and it is abusive. If you start investigating your family tree you will likely discover that this kind of behavior has been going on for generations.

For the sake of our longterm health the only real option is to keep one's distance. Of course it is not easy initially as we have to go against our evolutionary programming because for all of human history, to be kicked out of one's tribe meant certain death. Thankfully this is no longer the case. Personally, I consider myself an escapegoat, since being targeted in this way has enabled me to escape my toxic family system before it poisoned my kids.

[seekingpeace2day]

Couscous, Thank you. Whenever you have a moment, could you please read this thread? I'm very keen to learn more about this topic.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353534.0

[Nopuppets]

Update on this ridiculousness from my mother…. Help!  I did not take the bait on her email with the photo of my cousin.  A bit ago I got a message from my father asking me to please call my mother and catch up as it would mean a lot to her.  I guess this just makes things easier for him at home as I’m quite sure she is still in a rage from me not spending the night at their house a few weeks back.  I have told my father repeatedly that it is not my job to make/keep her happy.  I feel like I’m still be called on to pacify her and that her abuse of me is fine.  What should I say to him?  I’m pretty sure she reads his messages.  Many thanks.  This is an ongoing navigation!

[kells76]

Hi nopuppets,

I too have had my dad ask me to talk to my mom because "she felt like a bad mom". That is a difficult and painful position for a child, even an adult child, to be in.

How do you think it would go to say something like "Thanks for letting me know, Dad; I just want you to know that I do call Mom at a frequency that works for our relationship". Of course, this is if you do call your mom as part of your relationship -- not everyone does.

You could also decide if you wanted to use some SET type statements: "Dad, I hear you caring about Mom and thinking of things that would be meaningful to her. I'm with you that I would love for our family members to feel cared for. I call Mom at times that work OK for me and for our relationship."

Making statements about what you do that is in line with your values could be a way to stay out of the drama. It acknowledges that your dad has communicated something to you, without you feeling obligated to compromise your values to make him happy or make your mom happy.

SET type statements "work" in some situations and not well in others, so you can think about if (a) you feel up for that, and (b) what you think the outcome might be.

Hope that helps;

kells76

[Nopuppets]

Thank you Kells    It didn’t even occur to me to use SET with my father.  Great suggestions!  I’m meeting with a new therapist next week to try and get a better handle on all of this, especially as my parents age.  I do feel like if I called her now for a friendly catch up, it would just reinforce that her sulking works.  And, I genuinely do not want to hear her voice.  Calling would only be out of guilt and obligation.

[kells76]

I do feel like if I called her now for a friendly catch up, it would just reinforce that her sulking works.  And, I genuinely do not want to hear her voice.  Calling would only be out of guilt and obligation.

That seems like an important insight to have, as you decide if/when/how/why to call your mom.

Calling her at a time when you can act out of your own values, and make a conscious choice to do so, is different than calling her out of obligation and guilt -- even though the action looks the same, the motivations are different.

Glad that SET gives you some ideas for having integrity and being honest when talking with your dad!

I get it about the aging family members -- I struggle with feeling like I "should" call my grandparents (in their 90s) more. While not disordered, my grandma has some rigidness and b/w thinking that contributes to her "calling the shots" on them not moving to assisted living, even though my grandpa especially needs to. Anyway, it's hard navigating those relationships -- how do you care about older family from a genuine place, when there's other dynamics going on that can lead you to feel like you "have to" do something (the FOG you mentioned).

Keep us posted on how the meeting with the new T goes;

kells76