Healing from scapegoating

[seekingpeace2day]

Hello,

First time poster. I've read many threads over the past few days, began a very long post, and then realized the essence of my post is 1) I am hurting, and 2) How do I heal from being scapegoated for my entire life?

Very brief background: I am 50yo male. My father suffers alcoholism and almost certainly BPD/NPD. His emotional abuse has been severe and persistent since I was a toddler. Complicating matters is that he is very wealthy and maintains an absolutely perfect facade. But behind the exterior, he is incapable of self-regulation or self-reflection, despite or enabled by 20 years of psychoanalysis. Several people have come up to me over the years, and validated me, unsolicited ("It must have been very hard to be his son" kinds of remarks).

In March 2021, I clumsily but very respectfully set a boundary because my father had been telling our then 7yo son he wanted to see him "without parents," and my father lost it. He had already split his grandsons (my son and my GC sister's son), but at my boundary setting he went over the top, sending a severe and punishing letter essentially (but not entirely) disowning me. For a bit more context, he once raged at my then-pregnant wife (who is from a different race) that "he didn't care if he ever saw this baby!" Since then, he has seen our 8yo son a total of 4 times, but none in the past 4 years. He visits my sister's 8yo son quarterly and takes that family on annual trips, most recently to Europe.

I am NC with my GC sister for the past 6 or 7 years. I am LC with my codependent mother, whom I would prefer not to lose. Even though I've never regularly spoken with my father (my T believes he can not accept me because I am intellectually and ethically superior), for years the only correspondence we really receive is 1) raging, blaming, or 2) gloating about events that we were not invited to, like their recent trip to Italy. I believe he sends these emails to hurt me, and also because in his sickness he actually loves me and is very very pained.

Last, I started ACA 3.5 years ago, and it changed my life. I was made very, very sick by all of this, too. I attend ACA weekly and am not trying to say they are all sick, and I never was sick.

I thought about posting some of his correspondence, for normative feedback on the severity of the abuse. Let me know if this might be helpful.

So: how do we heal from being so brutally abused and scapegoated?

There have been flying monkeys and all the rest, and they ALL (except my mom, who deep down seems to recognize the problem) blame me totally. My father seems to have totally "cut me out" from his life. Is there any hope for long-term reconciliation with these people - at the funeral? (I've already tried everything - my inner children have done his best for all of these years.) Obviously I love them, and total NC does not feel right. But neither did getting punched in the nose, over and over and over. My fantasy would be to be a great husband and dad, and somehow still have some functional relationship with my FOO - even though my father cannot (as opposed to will not) be different.

Thank you.

[Channing]

Wow -- I am so sorry you are going through all of this. I have noticed that with those of us in similar situations with our FOO, there is a commonality to our questions. We ask how we can be in relationship with our relatives when there is a lifelong pattern of verbal and emotional abuse that is not going to change? My T told me that I should think of myself as an orphan. I was initially pretty surprised by that but when I reflected on it, it was somewhat liberating.

The community here has supported me in trying to set and model healthy boundaries that are designed to protect me and my son and that do not change based on the unhealthy reactions of my relatives. I think the hardest part is letting go of the desire to participate in a genuine emotional exchange with our loved ones because it is not safe to do that with them.

I also have a fantasy that I could someday build a bit of trust with my FOO, but over time I have come to realize that the fantasy is preventing me from taking positive action to build a healthier relationship with them. I am still trying to shed it.

Your situation is complicated by the dynamic between your father, your child and your father's other grandchildren. What is the best outcome you can envision for your child as he grows up?

My son just turned 18 and it was a challenge to stop my uBPD mother from triangulating him while he grew up. She is still trying. It helps that she lives far away and that I have no financial ties with her.

[seekingpeace2day]

Thank you for your response and support. I've also been advised that I am an orphan (and even read about this), but this alone hasn't really brought much relief.

I also have a fantasy that I could someday build a bit of trust with my FOO, but over time I have come to realize that the fantasy is preventing me from taking positive action to build a healthier relationship with them. I am still trying to shed it.

What does the healthier relationship with them look like?

Your situation is complicated by the dynamic between your father, your child and your father's other grandchildren. What is the best outcome you can envision for your child as he grows up?

I really appreciate this question. First a bit more background: my father split the grandchildren (there are two grandsons, born two weeks apart) before they were even born, forbidding them from being together on Christmas and then blaming me verbally and in writing for his actions. Several years later, when it suited him, he demanded that they be together - after he had ignored our son and spent several years joined at the hip with my GC's son. We declined.

The best outcome is that 1) our son feels confident in himself and LOVED, 2) we protect him from the truth (family history) until he is ready - then we will tell him the truth, and 3) he grows into a capable young adult and adult.

My son just turned 18 and it was a challenge to stop my uBPD mother from triangulating him while he grew up. She is still trying. It helps that she lives far away and that I have no financial ties with her.

Yes, despite my father's promises to stay away (we never asked him to stay away! but he writes and tells that we told him to "steer clear" - simply not true), he sends gifts. We do not return to sender, because that would only pour gasoline on the fire and after my clumsy but respectful boundary setting March 2021, I never again want to antagonize him. So at Christmas we give the gifts, but right now we are sitting on one that we have not yet given to our son. Under the circumstances, it feels very dangerous and frankly highly manipulative (and disrespectful) from my father. On a long hike yesterday, our son asked me when we would next go visit his grandparents. I simply said, "Wouldn't that be nice" and hugged him.

In his major "this is not the last straw" letter last year, my father told me that his priorities were to ensure my mother, sister, and the two grandsons (but no mention of me) would be taken care of if he is ever incapacitated, and that I would receive a fixed amount payment but never any assets. The GC sister is the executor, etc etc etc. It was a very legalistic and hateful letter; that's simply who he is and has always been.

Regarding the finances, we have successfully navigated the world so far (even though I am at the very pinnacle of my field, nothing I ever did was good enough, and  it was all worthless in my father's eyes, or I only received the most superficial of acknowledgements) and are on track to be just fine. (BY contrast GC sister has needed him every step of the way). But of course, like the gloating from Europe email last week - bragging about my sister's family with no mention of us, obviously we had no idea and were not invited, this all feels like a serious punch in the gut and one more way I am discarded and not seen. One note: it is possible that my father took them there to outdo me, as I was to present in Italy last Spring but the trip was cancelled. He has sought to belittle or outdo me on many instances in the past.

One last item. Last spring, after the severe, dysregulated letter from my father, I described to my mother that when I was a young child and very severely emotionally abused and then a true victim, she would tell me that my father really didn't mean it and loved me but didn't know how to say so. She remembered. Then I said, "Mom, it seems to me that nothing at all has changed." She agreed and said, That would be correct."

The twisted thing is that all these years later, I still do not know if my father "loves" me, and I still hold out some sliver of hope that he does love me, and all will be OK.

I want to move forward and continue to heal, but the last week feels really hard.

[Notwendy]

I think your situation overlaps with some of us here in several ways. I have been the scapegoat child as well. I have also spent time in ACA groups. One thing that helped me the most as an individual in these groups was to work one on one with a sponsor. We were able to get deeper into the particulars about my situation than we do in groups. If you have not done so already, I recommend you seek out a more experienced group member that you would like to work with and ask them to sponsor you. If they aren't able to do that, keep asking. ( some sponsors don't agree to work with more people than they have time for, so don't take a no personally ).

While I don't think my parents have had as much wealth as your father does, they have had enough of it for it to be a form of control over people. This was a motivator for me to become financially independent of them as soon as I was able to do so. It didn't mean I had a lot. I choose an affordable state college, spent my college years as a student with limited means. Dad earned all the money, but BPD mother controlled it. Any money from them had strings attached.

They sent the golden child sibling to a prestigious private college, study abroad, and helped to support this sibling longer but the unfortunate result was that this sibling remained enmeshed longer and remained under BPD mother's control longer. Before I realized this, I felt the situation was unfair and hurtful- but in actuality, I was able to not be as enmeshed.

If your achievements are not recognized by your father as "good enough"- that's a reflection of his issues. It has nothing to do with you. You have always been good enough.

BPD mother has also tried to have a relationship with my kids that didn't include me. She's not responded well to boundaries about that, but my kids are my priority. Dad was angry at me for doing this.

So how to begin to recover from this kind of treatment? I think the work in ACA has helped and also counseling. It has helped me to not take this kind of behavior personally. It may appear they prefer your GC sibling, but in actuality, you have the greater ability to be your own separate person because you are not reliant on your father's money. This work isn't quick, it takes effort, but it is achievable and very worth the effort and investment of your time. Your family doesn't define who you are. You are good enough and can realize it.

[seekingpeace2day]

Thank you, Notwendy. Our stories are indeed very similar. I WANT to continue to heal - and I will. This week just hurt a bit. I'm praying the ACA serenity prayer and also working on Steps 6 and 7.

Random other facts if helpful: 1) I have a sponsor and also a T. Sponsor is very helpful but has wanted me to heal, faster - so won't really talk to me about FOO anymore. 2) After the hateful "nearly but not disowning" letter from my Dad, I told my Mom, "I can't live this way anymore." She said, "I put my faith in your strength." The whole thing is soo sick. I think daily of what I might say at my Dad's funeral, if I were invited or chose to attend. I really would much rather think about my FOO less and my REAL family (wife and son) more.

Are your parents alive?
Were you disowned?
What happened/what is your relationship with your GC sibling?

[Notwendy]

I think I was in a similar place as you are now, towards the end of my father's life several years ago. Due to having boundaries with BPD mother, he got angry at me although he did not tell me I was disowned.

I was not at the hospital at the time he passed away. BPD mother notified immediate family but not me. I found out when one of Dad's family members called me. At this point, I realized I was probably disowned.

I didn't want to go to the funeral after that as I didn't think it was appropriate for me to be there.  However, my kids were close to my father. They wanted to go. I went because of them. I didn't sit anywhere near my mother or her family. I didn't say anything at the funeral.

What followed that was several months of grief, confusion and disbelief. Was this my father's idea? Did my father even care about me or did I imagine it? More likely it was my mother's idea.

It was shortly after this that I found ACA.

Ironically, even with all the grief was a strange sense of freedom. I didn't have a choice to have a relationship with BPD mother before. I didn't even consider it. My relationship with Dad was contingent on my relationship with her. I had to comply with her. Now, I didn't.

But then, I had to consider my own values. BPD mother was now an elderly widow. Can I actually cut contact with her and feel OK about it? No. A wise friend advised me to call her from time to time on a schedule to check on her. I did. But I have kept an emotional distance. 12 steps helped me to let go of resentments. I realize she acted out of dysregulation. However, 12 steps has helped me to have boundaries and not accept abusive behavior.

She later "reowned" me in her will but what she does is up to her. I am not interested in what she does with it either way.

I have a good, but guarded relationship with GC. GC is also in ACA. However, GC still can be vulnerable to BPD mother's manipulations and for that reason, I stay a bit guarded with our communications. But generally we get along well.

I know it feels badly for you now. I share my story to show you that I understand feeling as if one is orphaned, and that, it is possible to move past where you are now. It doesn't mean I don't have struggles with my relationship with BPD mother but I now have the tools to self regulate and dwell less on the situation. Your progress with this may feel slow. I felt that too but one day BPD mother said something to me on the phone that I would have gotten upset about, but I didn't. I realized this is that "emotional sobriety" they are talking about. Keep working the steps with your sponsor. One reason your sponsor limits you talking about your family is that they want you to focus more on you, your feelings, your choices. Take it one day at a time.

[seekingpeace2day]

Thank you, Notwendy, for sharing and for your support. I feel validated and much less distressed than during the past week (!). It really is about emotional sobriety and one day at a time.

I have a few specific questions regarding current interactions but first will process our discussion thus far - and hope to hear others' similar stories and insights.

[Couscous]

Seekingpeace2day,

Sometimes we just have to go cold turkey on our families.

I just initiated a family cutoff myself even though just two months ago the thought of doing so seemed absolutely impossible. But then I suddenly got to the point where I decided that I no longer needed their approval, and then it was easy.

This video helped me a lot, although I didn’t send a letter.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=olqyOZnFRWM

[Methuen]

First of all, I am really sorry for what you have been (and still are) going through.  

Is there any hope for long-term reconciliation with these people - at the funeral?

Is there any hope of change with any disease, without treatment of some kind?  

I think sometimes we hope for the impossible because we want it so bad.  Is our hope a bit irrational?  Is it rational to think we will ever get a new outcome without a change to the conditions?

Sadly it's a disease, and I don't know of a disease that cures itself.   In terms of reconciliation, it would seem from what you have written that it is unlikely, since your son is now 8 years old.  If you step back and look at it from where I am, what kind of person refuses to see their own grandson?  Does any child deserve to be treated like that?  You were a child once too, and were badly treated.  You didn't deserve that either.  This is your father's problem.

I am sorry that you are living with the consequences of his problem.  I wish I could offer more, but I have only support to offer you.

[seekingpeace2day]

I am very sad reading your replies, Couscous and Metheun. I'm not yet sure if it is my inner child, adult, or whole self who is so sad.

I will say - at risk of sounding like defending my parents - that 1) they once wrote and said that they never wanted my son, to sense any tension between the family - so in a way they were protecting my son, 2) my father once wrote that he tried to win his father's love by presenting me as a gift to his father, and this was a mistake so he would not let me make the same mistake - that was his justification for not seeing us (that the connection had to come from my son, not me), and 3) my father has a strong FANTASY of seeing my son but is totally unable to see his own behavior, so angrily blames me for their non-relationship. It's like my father has no skills to be different, and I'm not sure if part of him deep down wishes he could be different or not.

My plans are to continue to maintain boundaries, including protecting my son from my father and NC with my GC sister-in-denial, at least until my parents are very old/sick or die. I mean think about it, what would it be like to be together with him/them all and pretending nothing happened?

How should I proceed with my mom? My mom has always maintained a loving relationship with me but now confesses that she is totally unable to control my father. To the extent that she is capable of love, she loves me. Of course, she is codependent so I really don't know what happens when I am not there. But she sees me clearly. In terms of her own life, she is generally totally disassociated and refuses to discuss real family issues. But when trauma happens she comes out of her shell and reveals insight and can relate in a genuine way. She did come visit last year - after the severe letter from my Dad she invited herself to visit us (perhaps as a way to keep us all together). When I told her she had not seen our son in 3 years, her eyes bugged out and she could not believe it, like it had not crossed her mind! She loves our son (and my father loves the IDEA of a grandson). I now text 1 line texts with my Mom, once a month or so. Should I call her? Let her talk to our son? Let her visit? Or stay hidden (and relatively safe) and let her keep walking down the road with my Dad?

Are they happy together when I am not there, or are they always sick and miserable?

Apologies if a bit scattered post. Thanks for reading and thanks for any insight.

[Notwendy]

These are complicated relationships. It's not that our parents are completely terrible- I think most of us can say positive things they have done. There's a "push -pull" to these relationships, periods of calm, periods of dysregulation. Part of learning to radically accept them as they are is to accept that all sides of these relationships exist. So yes, your father could both be protective of your son, and also relate to him in hurtful ways, just as he has done with you. The good doesn't change that the negative exists too.

When we are assessing if the relationship is a safe one for us, or children, we have to look at all of it. For instance, a short supervised visit with my BPD mother is safe for kids. Being alone with her is not. I don't feel comfortable being alone with her for long periods of time either.

Consider consistency. When an adult comes into a child's life, forms a relationship with them,  and then leaves abruptly due to some perceived slight, that isn't good for a child. Children can't process this. So even if your father comes into your lives and is on his best behavior, then gets angry and "disowns" you again, this would not be good for your child.

Seeing grandpa once a year might not be an issue but another concern is the drama associated with this- how does your father interact with him? I found this to be more problematic when the kids got older. Visiting a small child wasn't much of a big deal. Parents brought toys, we went to the park, kids ran around. However, as teens, my BPD mother could ask probing questions, confide in them. Her lack of boundaries became more of a concern. So consider contact with your parents over time, not at one age.

What to do about your mother? I considered my father to be a separate individual, but in actuality, he was enmeshed with my mother that they were more like one person. It's interesting because sometimes when she's talking to me, she sounds just like him. I wonder now if he was actually saying what he thought, or what she thought, or vice versa. I learned that anything I said to him, even if it was in confidence, was shared with her- emails, phone calls, everything. The Karpman triangle was strong- and their rescuer (him) - victim (her) bond was the strongest and they'd eventually act from that position.

I didn't fully understand co-dependency until I had to work on my own co-dependent tendencies. I perceived Dad as the "normal" parent and compared to BPD mother, he was the more emotionally stable one. He also did seem to connect with me, be emotionally available, and have a genuine bond with me at times, but that was expendable when it came to BPD mother's wishes.

I think his relationship with my mother was extremely difficult. I hope he found some kind of happiness in it somehow, because from what I saw, it wasn't. Like your mother - he seemed to be operating in crisis mode, with the focus on BPD mother. So even if he was possibly capable of being emotionally available, he usually wasn't due to this focus.

Another parallel is that BPD mother loves the idea of grandchildren, but from a self image standpoint. She likes the image of being a grandmother. The grandkids are accessories to that image.

My father though, was an engaged parent and grandparent. During visits, my mother was self absorbed and kind of observed the kids. Dad would get on the floor and play with them, tell them stories. As teens, he'd discuss school with them. They had a bond with him in a similar way that I did, and for this, I think it was worth it to have them get to know their grandparents. It all fell apart though when I tried to have boundaries when they were teens.

Regardless of how much contact you want with your mother, keep in mind that she's enmeshed with your father. Ultimately he will be in control and the strongest bond is between them.

[seekingpeace2day]

Thanks, Metheun. I discussed with my wife this morning, and in her mind there is no question that my mother very much loves our son, as well as each of us. So, it’s a conundrum. When she is with our son, she is a good grandmother, and she has also volunteered to read via zoom for his class, etc. etc. My dreams have been telling me that I am in a safe place to observe, so even though I want to hug her, I probably should stay safe and continue to observe.

What are they like as a family, when I am not around?

[Notwendy]

Thanks, Metheun. I discussed with my wife this morning, and in her mind there is no question that my mother very much loves our son, as well as each of us. So, it’s a conundrum. When she is with our son, she is a good grandmother, and she has also volunteered to read via zoom for his class, etc. etc. My dreams have been telling me that I am in a safe place to observe, so even though I want to hug her, I probably should stay safe and continue to observe.

What are they like as a family, when I am not around?

Trust your gut. If it says to observe- that's what you do. Perhaps by learning more about family dynamics on this board, and boundaries - you will at one point feel you can decide how to proceed but trusting your gut feelings can guide you to when that is, if ever.  Know that there isn't just one way. All decisions- NC, LC, have both pros and cons. I don't think we ever feel entirely comfortable with our choices- we decide which one is the safest for us and one we can manage best.

What are they like when you aren't around? Your parents, or all of them? GC as well?

As the scapegoat child, I assumed my family was happier once I left home. BPD mother blamed me for her issues and so I assumed that by leaving home, it would be a solution for them. Since BPD mother did hold it together when visiting, I had no reason to not assume this.

BPD involves disordered relationships and it affects the most intimate of relationships the most. Knowing this - you can assume it's even more disordered between your parents, however, they are in a balanced match- your father's alcoholism, BPD, with your mother's co-dependency. That doesn't mean it is stable or happy- but just that together, their disordered behaviors somehow fit with each other.

I don't think my GC sibling is any better off than I am. Enmeshment is not a better situation than scapegoat.

[Riv3rW0lf]

What are they like as a family, when I am not around?

I am not trying to be dismissive with this question, but sending you back toward introspection : does it truly matter?

Why does it matter so to you to know how they are when you are not there?

Are you thinking of letting your son have a relationship with your father "on his own", as your father once requested? Is it why you wonder how your father is when you are not there?

My BPD mother differs from Notwendy's when it comes to kids, so this might offer another perspective. My BPD mother loves her grandkids, much more than she ever loved us. Both my brothers were raised as protectors and rescuers. And I, her only daughter, am an extension of her inner life i.e., she projects on me, and doesn't know, nor see me.  Truth be told : she has no idea who I am. She thinks she does, and will "read my mind",  but it is a sure miss everytime.

With my children, when they were born, it set off a strong dysregulation pattern in our relationship. Prior to my having children, she didn't care much for me and what I was doing. However, the second I became pregnant, she was back in my life.

Now... She is a GREAT grandmother, especially with young kids. But, because of the dynamic she sets between us, the biggest issue is that : she competes against me (and against the other grandparents) which is very unhealthy. She sees herself as someone who could be a better mother for them, if that makes sense.

Reading you, I sense the dynamic with your own father is similar, no? He competes with you, he will go to places you couldn't go, always making sure you know, he is looking to be smarter, better than you.

Like you wrote about your father, my mother also resent that I am more rational than she is, and yes, smarter too, definitely sharper, more logical. I am a perfectionnist like my father, and it triggers her big time.

So what would your father do, with a relationship with your children, without you present?

I can tell you what my mother does... : she competes for their love and will wedge them against me if I turn my back... Because this is the nature of our relationship. She simply has to be better than me. She tried it with my nephew and my sister in law, so I have no reason to believe it will be different for me. She already showed me plenty of signs that this is the deep dynamic.

A great grandmother for my children...to the cost of my relationship with them. And I am not ready to sacrifice my bond with my children to please her narcissistic needs.

So my children see my father and his wife, and my in-laws. My BPD mother is not in their life anymore. I decided to protect my family.

Do I feel guilty about it? Yes, sometimes. A user here pointed out to me that I have internalized the abuse cycle within me, making me feel it's tender side every few weeks. Then I feel guilt, I miss my mother and I feel like I am the bad one... But truth be told: my mother neglected me nearly all my life, except for very few moments where she showed love. But generally, she didn't care and terrorized me. Why and how do I owe her a bond with the two people I hold most precious in my life? She abused me all my life... Being a grandparent is not a right, it is a privilege, and she lost it when she decided to continue her abuse.

Don't get me wrong, it breaks my heart. But I have to listen to my intuition. This gut wrenching feeling whenever she is around my kids. I see her, and I get this image of a wolf preying on my young children, despite her smiles and her playing with them. I simply don't feel this scared with my father, his wife and my in-laws. They are safe. She isn't.

And yes, it also hurt deeply to see her able to love my children so much, knowing what she did to me when I was their age (hurting me physically, emotionnally, raging at me, terrorizing me). But this is not payback, this is a protective boundary I chose for my family.

I hope this helps.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Sorry double post.

[Couscous]

The dynamic between you and your mother sounds so much like the one between me and my father. He even made the trek across 9 time zones to visit me after a particularly hurtful situation that transpired with between my mother and me. I really wanted to believe that this meant that he genuinely loved me, and while I do believe that part of him does, this particular trip was motivated solely by his need to be a hero and he was essentially exploiting the situation for his own gain.

He also was a fairly engaged grandfather — that is until I began the process of “unmeshing” from him a few months ago. I’m not sure if it’s just a temporary phase as he adjusts to the new normal, but now that I am no longer initiating regular contact with him, he appears to have lost interest in my 5 & 7 year old boys. I guess he’s just too “hurt”. I can easily imagine that, going forward, he will just send gifts in lieu of having an actual relationship with them.

In the end though, I realized that I had a healing fantasy that my parents were going to be these loving, engaged grandparents, and that somehow this was going to magically heal my childhood wounds, and that we would all live happily ever after. Sadly it just doesn’t work that way…

[seekingpeace2day]

Thank you all for your thoughtfulness and support. Posting here was a great act of self-care for me. (I had been embarrassed!)

Drama Triangle
A-ha! I have been reading and struggling to understand the drama triangle. Boom! Part of my mom's coming to visit us was to be the rescuer. Wow! How do I learn more about how to recognize and avoid these traps? I've read a bunch but not yet grasped it.

Mom
My mom does love us, and we have some connection. Her recent text was, "I'm thinking about you and wanted you to know! I love you all the time." But when she has just gone to Eurpope for 2 weeks with GC sister's family, after a period of radio silence to me, those words of course ring hollow. Even so, I believe she does the best she can and is just disassociated most of the time. She explicitly states, "I just black that out" when I ask about past family trauma/abuse. She is not a victim, of course. She is a 50/50 partner in the madness. Even so, she is not the perpetrator that my father is.

My T thinks it is dangerous for me to connect with mom or for her to spend time with my son, because it is exposing my son to something that is very dangerous to him. At the same time, I don't want to lose my mom - she is my last somewhat real connection to my FOO. Even though my dreams say stay safe and observe, I want to make this decision - not have it made for me by her death. I guess my decision for now will be to stay safe and observe. Note that my mom's visits with our son have always been very kind and loving. Her denial and disassociation are staggering, but I love her.

Father
I know that my father is severely dangerous to us - even though he seems highly engaged and incredibly kind to GCs child. Of course, he is just using the child as an extension of himself - an image of the perfect grandchild! I mourn that my son will not have a special relationship with his grandfather - but that does not seem possible. I even wonder if GC's son has a special relationship with my father, or if someday that might turn south, too.

Telling our children
How have others told their children that grandfather (and/or grandmother) are not safe? My T wisely states that at some point, I'm going to need to bring him on board with the reality. Overall, it's just not a fun situation. But I will protect him no matter what.

Thanks for reading.

[Methuen]

How have others told their children that grandfather (and/or grandmother) are not safe?

I have two thoughts about this.  One is the consideration of the developmental level of the child and two is the execution of the delivery of the message.  Both are tricky.

On the first point, I think there is risk in telling the child too much before a certain age.  What the "magic" age is will depend on the child.  Children are completely innocent, and can say the darnedest things.  Sometimes cute.  Sometimes awkward or embarrassing.  If a child is told this message before they are developmentally ready to understand the nuances and complicating factors, they can inadvertently slip up and grand dad will certainly find out what you told them.  At that point, it becomes a competition, grand dad will say things about you, and the child will be caught in the middle.  That would be a disaster.  Also kids can't keep "secrets", and I have strong feelings against asking kids to keep information about another family member secret.  IMHO, if a child "might" need to be told that this information is not to be mentioned to anyone else, it is possible they can't be trusted to keep it quiet, either because the secret is bursting inside them, they can't possibly understand your history, or they inadvertently slip up.  

As to the delivery, this is also tricky.  In our case, H and I were together with our kids when we shared "the first little bit" which was really just the tip of the iceberg.  H and I came up with a plan, a script of sorts, and then H delivered the message when the four of us were together.  We hoped that the message coming from him would make it look more neutral, and by H delivering it, the kids saw their dad supported me.  I can't remember the exact words, but we tried to keep it somewhat brief and simple.  Our kids were young adults by then, so H started with a preamble about "grandma's quirkiness" and reminded of a particular story, and then told them something along the line of how grandma had trouble managing her feelings and emotions, and when she was upset about something, would take it out on me.  Our daughter had by then witnessed one of these rages, so the facts were undeniable.  They both listened quietly.  We didn't ask them to say anything or respond.  But he did tell them that we were both seeing a counsellor together, and over the years, different counsellors all identified it as "sounding like BPD" - a mental illness.  Our kids were in their early 20's.  The whole thing probably took 10 min - maybe more.  

If the child was younger, it should be probably only be a sentence or two.  But be aware that with younger kids, whatever you say will almost certainly get to your father if contact occurs - unless the child is emotionally and intellectually mature enough to know to keep it quiet without being told to do so.  Maybe others would disagree.  Just my thoughts.

If the child is a teenager, it really depends on the child.  My mom groomed our son.  He was GC.  Grand daughter was almost invisible to her, and knew it by the age of 7 because she talked to me about it.  I mentioned it kindly to my mom hoping she would be more mindful, but it never changed a thing.  I had never heard of BPD back then, so was not equipped to navigate what was happening.  I honestly don't know if we could have told our kids earlier about their grandma. Grandson was very close to his grandma because she groomed him.  He was her "special" one.  Today I am very proud of him, because he has the big boy pants to call her on her behavior when he is witness to it.  He has never seen her rage at me, but he witnessed her abuse a home care worker - and he called her on it right there in front of the worker, and us.  He's 27 now.  Having said that, he can still be defensive of her.  The grooming (to be her emotional caretaker) still had an effect.  Thankfully he lives 6 1/2 hours away from her now (but still visits lots and works remotely at our place).

Another strategy we used was to "engineer" situations, without ever "declaring" a boundary (because that just escalates and creates conflict and hurt feelings).  For example, one of the things my dad liked to do was drive the logging roads up a few local mountains in the summer time, and then we would hike around the alpine areas.  My dad got dementia, and while he accepted it with grace, he still thought he could drive up a mountain road in his truck with us and the kids as passengers.  We just weren't comfortable with that.  We never declared that he couldn't drive us and our kids on this outing, we just weren't available to go on the few occasions when the weather was right.  We did many other things with him instead that we felt safe doing, and if there was driving involved, my H did it.  We used the same strategy with my mom.  She was a terrible driver.  She once decelerated and stopped the vehicle in a driving lane on a highway when she picked us up from the airport after we returned from our honeymoon.  She was excited to see us and talking, and there we were sitting in the back seat in the middle of a highway with vehicles going all around us.  When our kids were still quite little, we found a daycare that would deliver and pick up our kids for before and after school care, so we didn't have to rely on her driving.  We did lots of things with grandma and grandpa, but by then we had bought a van, had the bigger more comfortable vehicle, and therefore did the driving.  I don't know if this kind of "engineering" could apply to your situation.  So we had a boundary (grandma and grandpa not safe to drive our kids) and we enforced it, but without ever declaring it.

If your child is asking to see him and grandma, that makes it harder.  About the GC and your dad treating her family including GC grandson on holidays, I would just continue to not share that info with your child.  What they don't know can't hurt them.  

Ultimately, you know your child best.  You know your parents.  You know your history and the situation.  And every situation is unique with unique people in the drama.  It's going to depend on so many things - but do trust your gut.  Be aware of potential pitfalls, but listen to the voice at the back of your head (the rational one) as well as the one in your heart.  If you approach it rationally and thoughtfully, that's the best you can do.  

[seekingpeace2day]

(Is there an edit feature in this forum?)

Really helpful, Metheun. Thanks.

Our son will turn 9 in September, and although he is very bright, he is obviously far too young to share any of the details. He thinks his grandparents love him and talks about them from time to time. My initial thought is that we should protect this innocence as long as possible. Do you agree? But as my T mentioned, at some point he will need to know.

[seekingpeace2day]

I am not trying to be dismissive with this question, but sending you back toward introspection : does it truly matter?

Why does it matter so to you to know how they are when you are not there?

Are you thinking of letting your son have a relationship with your father "on his own", as your father once requested? Is it why you wonder how your father is when you are not there?

It does not matter. I suppose I am much too other-focused when I ask what they are like without me there, i.e., if they experience severe problems even when I am not around, then it's definitely them and not me! That is admittedly the biggest part of my curiosity (which of course does not help my healing/recovery). The second reason is that I genuinely am curious about BPD/NPD etc. Practically speaking, we are very, very far away from my father ever spending time with my son alone - even my mom warned me against that, when our son was 4 or so. She told me, "Don't ever leave him [son] alone with him [father]."

And I am not ready to sacrifice my bond with my children to please her narcissistic needs.

So my children see my father and his wife, and my in-laws. My BPD mother is not in their life anymore. I decided to protect my family.

Being a grandparent is not a right, it is a privilege, and she lost it when she decided to continue her abuse.

But I have to listen to my intuition. This gut wrenching feeling whenever she is around my kids. I see her, and I get this image of a wolf preying on my young children, despite her smiles and her playing with them. I simply don't feel this scared with my father, his wife and my in-laws. They are safe. She isn't.

I agree with so much of what you wrote here, especially about grandparenting being a privilege and not a right. It's interesting because in my FOO I *would not have survived adolescence and young adulthood* without my grandmothers - they literally saved my life. I would stay with them at the holidays (abuse/toxicity in my father's house), and my grandmothers loved and supported me. (My mom's mom told me to never trust my father - she told me details of my father's abuse of my mother). They also left me a small inheritance, which I used to "buy my way out" and attend graduate school. I have less money in the bank than my GC sister, who lived at home until she was married at 26, but I'm sure I now earn far more than she does and I contribute infinitely more to the world and greater good. Anyway, there has been an important role for grandparents in the multi-generational trauma that certainly exists in my FOO. That doesn't mean I need to continue it blindly, with such obvious risks. NO ONE (since I was bullied as a kid, which obviously I learned at home) has ever spoken to me the way my father routinely speaks to me... how could I let my son see that? Eff no. No effing way. End.

Anyway, one difference between your BPD mom situation and mine is that my parents are married. Even so, your experience suggests that some contact with my mom could be possible, no?
 

I hope this helps.

Thanks, Riv3rW0lf. This helps a lot.

[seekingpeace2day]

The dynamic between you and your mother sounds so much like the one between me and my father. He even made the trek across 9 time zones to visit me after a particularly hurtful situation that transpired with between my mother and me. I really wanted to believe that this meant that he genuinely loved me, and while I do believe that part of him does, this particular trip was motivated solely by his need to be a hero and he was essentially exploiting the situation for his own gain.

Couscous,

Your post triggered a major realization for me, thank you!

When my mother is with me, she is a rescuer (me=victim, father=persecutor). When she is with HIM, she is a rescuer (father=victim, me=persecutor). Wow. Is there anything I can do with this information, to improve relationships or interactions?

In the end though, I realized that I had a healing fantasy that my parents were going to be these loving, engaged grandparents, and that somehow this was going to magically heal my childhood wounds, and that we would all live happily ever after. Sadly it just doesn’t work that way…

I also have healing fantasties, but they are so weakened because now I this, how can this possibly be undone (other than by a Divine miracle)? I will never, ever expose my family to that toxic environment - it is the opposite of neutral turf. So, I work to stay in the fight and don't abandon myself, one day at a time.

[seekingpeace2day]

BPD involves disordered relationships and it affects the most intimate of relationships the most. Knowing this - you can assume it's even more disordered between your parents, however, they are in a balanced match- your father's alcoholism, BPD, with your mother's co-dependency. That doesn't mean it is stable or happy- but just that together, their disordered behaviors somehow fit with each other.

I don't think my GC sibling is any better off than I am. Enmeshment is not a better situation than scapegoat.

Notwendy, Thanks. I have no doubt that I am healthier and stronger than my GC sister. I suppose I am just pissed for how she is rewarded and treated. "It's not fair!" Ug, not where I want my focus to be.

In terms of BPD curiosity, how might the relationships work with my GC sister and my parents? My brother in law (about whom my father now boasts in his emails)? Having watched my mother and sister for years, they seem to walk on eggshells always around my dad, but always stroke his ego and enable/tolerate his ways. My brother in law must do the same, and I also think my father uses him to hurt me and rub it in that I am not included. Not sure if relevant, but although my father made a lot of money I certainly am in the running for most successful career. (None of this is core to my healing/recovery, but I am so darn curious and hopeful that some insight will help me stop wondering.)

Also, above you write about understanding your own codependence. Did you attend CODA? Read something in particular? Obviously I'm not yet entirely free of the enmeshment (or I wouldn't think about them so often). Some days are better than others, and I know my healing is within ME and not in them.

[Methuen]

Our son will turn 9 in September, and although he is very bright, he is obviously far too young to share any of the details. He thinks his grandparents love him and talks about them from time to time. My initial thought is that we should protect this innocence as long as possible. Do you agree? But as my T mentioned, at some point he will need to know.

About protecting his innocence- It makes sense at his age. 

What I would probably do, if possible, is avoid saying anything about them around him. Then he has no reason to notice it or think about it.

Since you live so far away, he will probably not think much about them on his own.

When he is preteen or teen, he may at some point show more curiosity, and start asking questions.

I don’t want to give advice about what to say when that time comes.  Others here may have suggestions.  I would discuss  this with your T. 

But I would be guarded about what you tell him,  in the event he has contact with your dad later.  In my experience, my bpd mother can be utterly charming to others including her grandchildren.  So anything you shared with your son (eg my dad didn’t always treat me well) might not fit with future charming treatment your father could shower on him (which could be confusing to him.  Who should he believe?). 

If you stay true to your values, you will probably make the best  decisions you can in a very very difficult situation.

At the end of the day we can seek information and resources, pick the brains of those with experience, seek advice from our T, and if we are thoughtful and rational and reflective, that is the best we can do. 

If after that there are bumps or the train goes completely off the rails, we can still take comfort knowing we did our best with the info available to us at the time. 

I have had to learn that I can’t prevent every bad thing from happening.  Sometimes it’s out of my control.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Seekingpeace-

You have so much going on...I am so sorry. 

I feel it is vital for you to remember that no matter what toxic messages your father attempts to deliver in writing, e-mail or by telephone, his actions have not destroyed you.  You’ve become a wonderful husband and father, no thanks to anything your father modeled. And you developed your own career path. I seem to see things differently at times.

What I see is that your father is actually feeling somehow resentful and “abandoned” by you in that sick and controlling BPD/NPD way.  With him, it’s the money.  Perhaps his father did it to him.  But you became independent of those purse strings, where your sister (GC) did not.  And he likes and needs that control.  He somehow equates that to “love”.  Since you don’t “need” him, you must not “love” him.  For his own selfish and awful reasons, he doesn’t WANT to recall the terrible emotional and verbal abuse he threw at you whilst you were growing up.  To him, his lack of (recall and) accountability just makes him mad at you.  Because he’s too ashamed to own up to it.  But if you take a step TOWARD him and allow contact with your son, it means you forgive... without him having to admit to a thing he did or said to you.  His anger is misplaced.  That’s how NPD people operate.  They do what they do and we forgive and forget.  Except we don’t.

The biggest flaw he sees in you is that you see him.  You don’t have him on a pedestal.  He knows that.  You’re going to be alright as long as you let yourself.  He most likely won’t be any different than he is now.

The one thing I don’t think you need to do or think about is Speaking at his future funeral...because the person who will be hurt the most is you.  You are a sensitive person and this sort of behavior, in front of a group of people will not heal you.  And thinking about it will not move you toward healing.  And having your beloved son witness something like this from his dad will hurt your son.  So write in your journal, periodically burn your pages and send the ashes into the sea.  Or something like that.

The final thing I wish to ponder is triangulation.  Your mom is your mom.  And although she is likely codependent with your father, she is still a separate person from him.  Just because she came to visit after his caustic letter does not mean she necessarily had any bad intentions at all.  She was being your mom.  We tend to become hyper-vigilant, but some actions can be innocent and loving.  If she can visit your sweet family knowing that the topic of your father is off limits, would that be unsettling to you?

Can you please expand on why you and/or your T believe any visit from your mom is “dangerous” to you, your wife and your child?

When you have time, I’d love to hear your thoughts on anything you’re comfortable with.  I hope I haven’t stepped over the line here.  Love and embrace your beautiful wife and son.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Couscous]

In terms of BPD curiosity, how might the relationships work with my GC sister and my parents?

You can find lots of info on the web about the narcissistic family system but as the designated scapegoat there is really nothing that you can do differently that will allow you to escape their abuse.

[Notwendy]

My kids were teens when BPD mother's behaviors became more of a concern.

I think as you spend more time in ACA, you will see that while we do talk about our parents- the focus shifts to how we manage it. This is the perspective I shared with my kids. They were old enough to understand mental illness and BPD. I was factual about that with them.

Rather than focus on BPD mother's behaviors, or vent to them, they have seen me struggle with how to have some sort of respectful relationship with her. They haven't seen the worst of her behavior but she's manipulative and has poor boundaries and they have seen that.

I have also made a point of validating their own personal boundaries- not just with her but with any relationship they have- family, friends, work, dating. One of the good things about doing ACA work is that if we learn to understand and have better boundaries, it helps in all our relationships and this includes parenting.

Kids have natural boundaries. I think what happened in our families is that they were invalidated. We had a natural reaction to a parent raging, then we were told "but you should love your mother and she loves you" but your gut feeling at the moment is to be wary of them.

My kids have that sense of discomfort around my mother. In my family, I felt shame for this, like it was my fault that I felt that way about her. I see now that this is our own natural boundaries that tell us we are being manipulated or that this person does not respect boundaries. So while I still encouraged them to be polite and respectful to her, I didn't push them to override that.

I have been open about my own struggles navigating this and they know I attend ACA groups. I want to role model that it is OK to seek help if you need it. They see that even if I don't do everything right, I try to do better. I'm careful to not triangulate- I don't want them to be sympathetic- I think it's important to be authentic with them. ( without sharing the details of the experiences with BPD mother growing up).

The good news is that BPD mother's behaviors bother them less than they do me. I realize that they didn't grow up with the same relationship I had with her.

This makes it less about the pwBPD and more about "trust your gut" around people who you feel uncomfortable with.

[seekingpeace2day]

About protecting his innocence- It makes sense at his age. 

What I would probably do, if possible, is avoid saying anything about them around him. Then he has no reason to notice it or think about it.

Since you live so far away, he will probably not think much about them on his own.

When he is preteen or teen, he may at some point show more curiosity, and start asking questions.

I don’t want to give advice about what to say when that time comes.  Others here may have suggestions.  I would discuss  this with your T. 

But I would be guarded about what you tell him,  in the event he has contact with your dad later. 

Thank you. This is very wise and consistent with our planned approach (and our current approach to simply state, "Wouldn't that be nice" and move the conversation on).  I hadn't thought of how important it is to be guarded - my parents did a decent job of not blasting their parents (even though we knew there were problems, they reasonably protected the grandparent>grandchild relationship), although they routinely blasted almost everyone else!

[seekingpeace2day]

You can find lots of info on the web about the narcissistic family system but as the designated scapegoat there is really nothing that you can do differently that will allow you to escape their abuse.

I was mostly wondering about their relationship between themselves, not including me (i.e., how to parents and GC act together, etc). This information has been more difficult to find.

[seekingpeace2day]

My kids were teens when BPD mother's behaviors became more of a concern.

Rather than focus on BPD mother's behaviors, or vent to them, they have seen me struggle with how to have some sort of respectful relationship with her. They haven't seen the worst of her behavior but she's manipulative and has poor boundaries and they have seen that.

I have been open about my own struggles navigating this and they know I attend ACA groups. I want to role model that it is OK to seek help if you need it. They see that even if I don't do everything right, I try to do better. I'm careful to not triangulate- I don't want them to be sympathetic- I think it's important to be authentic with them. ( without sharing the details of the experiences with BPD mother growing up).

The good news is that BPD mother's behaviors bother them less than they do me. I realize that they didn't grow up with the same relationship I had with her.

This makes it less about the pwBPD and more about "trust your gut" around people who you feel uncomfortable with.

It sounds like you are a loving and thoughtful parent, Notwendy. In the past year (I've been in ACA for 3.5 years), I've noticed a shift from focusing on FOO to focusing on myself - most recently Steps 6/7, as my character defects are MY problems, and in MY control, and I can ask God to change them. In part because of this awareness, I know that the program is helping.

I know my (very clever) son has seen my ACA materials - how could he not have - and I am not afraid of accepting my role. I do fear that he will blame me someday, perhaps in his own adolescent rage. Or he might not - so far there is 5% of the drama in our home, that there was in my FOO. But there is nothing about his potential anger at me other than be the best parent that I can, and love and protect him. He is a wonderful boy.

Sometimes, I see that he is more or differently gifted than I am, and it makes me feel such pride, wonder, and happiness. I know that my father sought to destroy me for those same reasons (I was more or differently gifted than he), and I have none of the jealousy or insecurity about my son. I WANT my son to be happy and himself and to succeed in whatever makes him happy. I WANT him to be prepared at the right time, and to have a wonderful life.

[Notwendy]

What is the reason you want to know this?

I'll use the CODA/ACA training I got- whenever I turn my focus on the other person(s) the question was turned on me. Why do you want to know this? This isn't to blame or be critical- but how they act with each other really doesn't involve you, but you have some reason to want to know. Nothing wrong with this but the reason- is the part that can be worked on, and so, it's important to pay attention to it.

From my own perspective, I can draw some parallels.

I assumed all was better between them when I wasn't around them.

BPD mother both treats GC better than she treats me and also worse. GC is more attached and enmeshed with her and feels more FOG. This is because there are more good experiences and more attachment. BPD impacts the most intimate relationships the most- so there's more of a swing between ups and downs with GC.

The most intimate relationship is the romantic one so this occurred between my parents as well. I don't think we can know ( and don't want to know ) all that goes on between a couple, but being around them when Dad was ill, I saw some of her verbal and emotional abusive behavior and it was awful to see. Reading the relationship board here can give you an idea of what this is like.