Adult relational chaos at Mom & Stepdad's house

[kells76]

Connected to all this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353001.0

DH sent an email to Mom a couple weeks ago to try to swap weekends -- he had a multiday work "teambuilding" trip most of the weekend that we were supposed to have the kids, and the kids weren't super interested in going. Mom sent back a snippy email about how "the kids told me they don't do well with 3 weekends in a row at your house, and you should know that you can't trade just because they don't want to do something".

Come to find out, Mom has been out of town this whole time. Apparently she is on some month+ road trip, plus seeing family in the state next to us. So it's been just Stepdad at Mom's house -- Mom isn't even there.

SD14 dropped some clues about it, and has been talking a lot about "We're going to take this trip up to see Mom and Grandma and Grandpa", but (a) the dates are never set, and (b) neither Mom nor Stepdad has given us a heads up about taking the kids on a vacation. The latest "we're doing a road trip" dates the kids have talked about are this Monday to Thursday (under a week away) and still no communication from Mom/Stepdad. Mom has also complained in the past that we are not doing enough "open communication" to her and she has been snippy if she hears about something from the kids but not us. Rules are different I guess. It's about a 12 hour drive to where Mom is.

SD16 has a music performance this Wednesday which is also DH's PT with SD16. We are supposed to be with the kids most of the day Friday as well, like usual.

DH was spending time with SD14 yesterday and that's where he learned that Mom was out of town for at least a month and that "they would go up and see her". The kids have been talking about "a trip to see Grandma and Grandpa" for a few weeks now, maybe a month, but without offering any other details.

I picked SD16 up from music practice yesterday and while chatting about other things the topic of her being emotionally wiped out came up. I asked how she was doing with "all that" and she said "Not good". I let her know that she could talk about it with me but she didn't have to and there was no pressure. She said she didn't want to talk about it "right now" but probably would at some point, so I told her that was fine, even if it took until she was 25 to be ready, I would wait. I reminded her that even if she didn't want to talk to me or DH about it, which was OK, the most important thing to us was that she had someone to talk to, and I asked if she felt like she had someone like that. She said she was working on it, so I let her know that if there was anything DH and I could help with, we'd do that. She said Mom was maybe working on getting her a counselor, so I said that was good that things were getting rolling. I also told her that she could think about what she needed when we spent time together, whether it was going and doing something with a friend, or just hanging out on the couch and not doing anything, and we would try to make our time together relaxing for her, so she could let go.

I also occasionally need to text Mom about taking SD14 to her activity. I use canned texts that pretty much always say "Hey, does it work for your schedule if SD14 does Activity on Day during Time Range?" A few weeks ago she responded with "you should ask Stepdad because I'm out of town", then the next time I asked about I got no answer. I asked again about another time slot yesterday and got no answer again. Part of that's on me for not adding "If I don't hear back from you by Day/Date I'll assume we're good to go!" The double standard about "open communication" is driving me crazy but is also expected.

It feels like something is brewing and I have some guesses though no actual idea what. I think Mom/Stepdad want to keep pretending to us that "it's all fine, we're the healthy ones", and ANY communication about current plans would reveal that things aren't OK. I wonder if Mom is moving out? But what's crazy is that back when DH & Mom divorced, a core of the narrative was "DH left the family because he moved out". So now Mom is in this bind of "it sure looks like what you're doing is leaving the family" because that's the story she pushed on the kids so hard back then. But who knows. Maybe Stepdad is moving in with Female Family Friend? Maybe FFF is moving into Mom's house? We have no idea. Is Mom going to try to move the kids out of state? Is she going to leave them with Stepdad in state but "keep her custody and parenting time"? It's all so crazy.

In a way I worry more for SD14 because she's so much more influence-able, stuffs feelings/doesn't talk about things, and retreats to elaborate fantasy to escape discomfort. She's on her phone a lot (apparently Mom/Stepdad just bought her her own phone in the last couple weeks, no heads up or asking DH at all) on TikTok. She does at least show me what she watches and posts, and told me her passwords (!), but I worry.

It just seems like something is going to break and we are so out of the loop. I worry that somehow Mom/Stepdad are going to blame us and badmouth us to the kids about it, or use their own chaos to rope the kids in to them further: "The kids don't want to visit you this weekend, they want to come see me out of state instead, this is the only time that works for me, if you tell them No they'll hate you and it'll be your fault for not letting them see me after a month" type stuff. Or, the kids will be like: "I can't come over, because Mom is home only for today".

I don't even know if I have a question with all this. Just needed to get it on paper. Lots of worries.

[PeteWitsend]

FWIW, I feel you.  I deal with this same sort of nonsense all the time.

It's especially grating, b/c BPDxw will adopt this holier-than-thou tone in her communications about how our D means the world to her & she'll always come first in her life, and then we learn through leaks and slips that BPDxw is frequently not even around, and her step-dad or grandma are most often home. 

I also understand the concern that something is about to break.  I have that a lot. 

There's always the question of how much to pry, and also the worry that my D is confiding needs us to pry, b/c she's been coached not to share too much, and we'll miss something important.

[livednlearned]

Oh geez. I'm so sorry this thing is getting legs. And that you can only guess at what it is, using your inner sleuth to try and piece stuff together since the girls can't share.

It's like that for me, too, with H's BPDx. I get glimpses through my oldest SD (the one who isn't BPD) but I rarely comment or ask questions because it's all tangled up in loyalty binds and fragments of brainwashing. Even SD28, who sees through a lot of it, is careful about what she says when it comes to her mom.

SD28 and I invoke what has come to be called "fight club rules." I haven't seen the movie, I get the gist. It's usually something she wants to talk about without it getting back to anyone. Usually it's about my stepson, who is on the spectrum, like my son is. And it's SD28 wanting to think out loud about what might help him because she sees me working through similar things with S21. We started this when she lived with me and SD25 (BPD) was engaging in suicidal ideation to different degrees with different family members and I felt like no one was helping SD28, who thought she was dealing with SD25 on her own.

I guess I'm sharing this because I intentionally stopped walking on eggshells and it worked out. It was a gamble, and there are a lot of details that probably matter when comparing situations. But in retrospect it was like I was in a fog of my own making, letting their family dysfunction interfere with my sense of what was right or wrong.

Do you feel there is something to be gained by asking SD16 outright if mom has moved out?

She may still be too young to ask her a pointed question, but she's also at an age where she can see what's going on.

"SD16, I'm going to ask a direct question that you can choose to answer or not. You can say yes, or no, or say you don't want to discuss it. You can ask me to keep this information to myself and not share it, not even with H. I can't promise he won't figure it out but I can promise I will respect your wishes. Let me first say that I've spent some time trying to figure out what my intention is for asking, and it's because I need to know how best to support you -- I'm not sure I can do it properly if I don't know what's going on. If the answer is yes, then that will help me be a better support for you. I'll be able to put things in perspective which I'm having a hard time doing with limited information. My question for you is this: Did your mom move out?"

Or something like that?

[zachira]

It is so tough when you have the feeling something crazy is going on and it affects the wellbeing of your stepchildren who you really care about. Part of the challenge is to keep yourself grounded so you are able to think and plan with the stepchildrens' best interests in mind. The other part of the challenge, is to keep your mind open without going crazy yourself in thinking about what could happen, and making the best plans you can for the unknown crazyness that could be going on.

[kells76]

Hey PeteWitsend,

There's always the question of how much to pry, and also the worry that my D is confiding needs us to pry, b/c she's been coached not to share too much, and we'll miss something important.

It's interesting how "sharing" or "disclosing" gets perverted/twisted in BPD family dynamics. My hunch is that at Mom's house, "sharing"/"talking about it" has been treated as currency or a ticket gaining you acceptance, closeness, attention, and "specialness". The more you share, the more you're treated as "one of us". So whether the kids want to or not, they learn that telling Mom and Stepdad a lot, and what they want to hear, gets you good feelings. And what Mom especially wants to hear is "I just don't really want to spend that much time with Dad".

I guess I try not to push the kids to share because I worry that it'll feel the same as at Mom's -- transactional, like you only get my support if you say more than you want to, and also content-driven, like I'll be happier if you tell me that things are bad at Mom's. So especially with SD16 I have been trying saying "you don't have to talk about it with me". Yet like you're saying, there's a price to that, that maybe there has been tacit messaging at Mom's around "everything is fine, and don't you dare tell Dad what's really going on, or you'll pay for it" -- not in so many words, but wonder if that's the feel. You're guilty and a betrayer if you tell Dad that Mom's house isn't the paradigm of perfection. You'll be on the outside, and others will receive the specialness and attention you want.

But yeah, it just can't ever be straightforward, huh. "Talking about things" gets so twisted.

...

LnL:

It's usually something she wants to talk about without it getting back to anyone.

Am I tracking with you, that what you're describing isn't: "Hey SD28, let's talk about a hypothetical situation, and I'll give you a hypothetical answer for whoever it's about" (that kind of "talking about it without talking about it")

rather, it is: "Hey SD18, let's talk about your brother, with the understanding that this conversation is between you and me only" ?

If it's the latter, was there an explicit way you approached that kind of conversation the first time, like a "what if we did these specific ground rules" conversation first?

Do you feel there is something to be gained by asking SD16 outright if mom has moved out?

That's where I'm not clear yet. Asking if Mom moved out presupposes that that's what happened -- when it's so murky that I'm not even sure. I think I'm not sure yet what would be a helpful direct question to ask: "Are Mom and Stepdad still married? Is FFF living at Mom's house now? Does Mom want you to move away with her?" And part of my lack of clarity right now is not being sure how any of that specific information would help us help the kids. It would help DH and I to know more from a logistical standpoint, but we're being shut out of info about counseling for the kids, so IDK... I guess I recognize that I am observing the hot mess and total chaos that is Mom & Stepdad's life, and the confusion is also what the kids are experiencing, in their own way.

You're right that SD16 actually responds really well to direct statements, questions, and directions. She loves clarity. I asked her to "check on the cat's litter box" the other day and she was like "Do you mean just look at it, or are you saying to clean it out?" She does sometimes seem to deescalate when statements are clear and straightforward. But the bind is that if she's open with me (or Dad), then she has betrayed "the real family". I don't think she has the strength to do that yet. She's obligated to participate in the family narrative of "we're special, the rules don't apply to insightful people like us, we have exceptional wisdom, our thoughts are profound, we've cornered the market on emotional health, we're deeply interesting people, we have it together in a way that normal people don't". Any cracks in that mean she's Out of the inner circle. I don't think she can yet survive emotionally without being In, because that's how Stepdad especially has cultivated those dependent relationships.

So yeah, it may take a balance of being really straightforward with "here are the specific questions I am wondering about", with the qualification of "and it's up to you if you want to answer those or not, there is no pressure, this is just what I am wondering after my observations."

...

Zachira:

The other part of the challenge, is to keep your mind open without going crazy yourself in thinking about what could happen

That's a huge part of it. There are so many predictable, and unpredictable, ways this could go, with Mom and Stepdad desperately trying to occupy the "victim" and "hero" roles despite the chaos. Does that mean that Mom whisks the kids out of state? Does she split Stepdad black? She's already not been responding to texts for about a week+. Is she abdicating her parenting role? It's a ton of weird unknowns.

I have a lot of hypervigilance and haven't really relaxed for over a year. My T commented that when it comes to the hypervigilance surrounding Mom/Stepdad, that isn't necessarily crazy to have, because history has shown that actually yes, at any moment things could suddenly pivot from "okay" to "chaotic conflict" with no warning. So the hypervigilance around them is based in reality.

It just feels like "here we go again, having to stay aware and alert for the next who knows how long" because of their poorly managed emotions and crazy PD type behaviors.

[zachira]

Kells76,
I know you love your stepdaughters and they are lucky to have you. How to deal with the neverending craziness of their mother so it does not overwhelmem you so intensely and for as long? Do you have any tips on what helps you emotionally to get through the latest unnecessary drama from the mother of your stepdaughters?

[Notwendy]

Kells, Although the chaos is difficult to deal with, I don't think there's any way to know the whole of it. With my BPD mother, she's very secretive, doesn't ever "put all her cards on the table". She may reveal aspects of what she's doing, but not all of it. Whether or not this is deliberate dishonesty, or fear of being vulnerable, I don't know.

The only thing I know is that, I don't really know.

As a family, we were also expected to not discuss her behavior with anyone. I think this is also a possible situation with your SD's and ex wife and SD. It's also likely the girls have no full idea but it's a big rule for us to not discuss BPD mother or any issues at home.

I think the best thing you are doing is being a safe person for the girls to talk to, if they so choose and role modeling unconditional love and stability.

[kells76]

zachira:

Do you have any tips on what helps you emotionally to get through the latest unnecessary drama from the mother of your stepdaughters?

That's what's hard right now. DH and I are having communication issues. I'm dealing with freeze responses towards him. So, in the past he and I would support each other "versus" the craziness, but now, it's hard for me to feel like I can turn to him for support. I have a lot of fear there. I know that what I'm doing is unhealthy, but basically I just try not to feel much and hope that one day somewhere down the road "things might be better".

Notwendy:

As a family, we were also expected to not discuss her behavior with anyone. I think this is also a possible situation with your SD's and ex wife and SD. It's also likely the girls have no full idea but it's a big rule for us to not discuss BPD mother or any issues at home.

That makes sense and I wonder if there's some cognitive dissonance there for SD16: somehow it's both "what Mom's house does is so wonderful and perfect, it's really doing it right" AND at the same time "don't tell Dad what Mom's house is up to".

...

Update, partly for my own "journaling" here -- no confirmation that the kids are headed up to see Mom today, sounding like it's not happening -- at least, not right now. I'm due to pick up SD14 for an activity this afternoon so we'll see if she mentions anything.

[livednlearned]

Am I tracking with you, that what you're describing isn't: "Hey SD28, let's talk about a hypothetical situation, and I'll give you a hypothetical answer for whoever it's about" (that kind of "talking about it without talking about it")

rather, it is: "Hey SD18, let's talk about your brother, with the understanding that this conversation is between you and me only" ?

Yes. But even more blunt.

If it's the latter, was there an explicit way you approached that kind of conversation the first time, like a "what if we did these specific ground rules" conversation first?

So much of this is based on trust and to a lesser extent, age. So I don't want to overstate that this is a solution that can work in your situation. A lot is situational. But I see a history with my son and SD28, and to a growing extent my stepson (23) where they have exceptional radars for authenticity and I represent that to them, with the added bonus of being skilled. I think BPD parents present this kind of outrageous "real" dialog that is not age-appropriate and the nonBPD parent is sort of in this backwater of non-authentic, not-real category because we are always aiming for age appropriate and that can be trickier to navigate from the perspective of authenticity. 

It helps when it comes from a place of clarity, your own.

I'm also exceptionally patient and will take however long it takes to build trust. SS23 is reaching out, a true miracle given how enmeshed he was. I have let him set the pace and it took roughly 10 years for him to feel comfortable enough to confide in me what he's been going through.

If more detail would help, I'm happy to do that, while also recognizing that our situations may be a bit different because of the ages and other dynamics going on. My two non-BPD stepkids are very conflict avoidant and aren't likely to blow things up with their mom. They hold their cards close. I know they have disagreed with her pretty overtly, putting their relationships on the line. Whereas BPD SD25 was betraying confidences and making things up nonstop in order to appease mom. Your stepkids seems to be halfway between those poles, so it may be harder to know what the fall-out of a frank conversation might be.

[Notwendy]

That makes sense and I wonder if there's some cognitive dissonance there for SD16: somehow it's both "what Mom's house does is so wonderful and perfect, it's really doing it right" AND at the same time "don't tell Dad what Mom's house is up to".

Exactly! It wasn't just not telling - it was presenting BPD mother as wonderful. This is also prevalent in her FOO- they tell me how wonderful she is.

Combine this cognitive dissonance with being blamed for BPD mother's behaviors when I was a teen. If she's a wonderful mother and yet behaves like this, and it's my fault - what does this mean about me?

It's no surprise that this impacted my self esteem. In addition, I feared that if anyone knew about BPD mother, it meant they'd not like me as if they also would think it was my fault.  I was afraid to say anything.

And where is the sense of normal? We grow up not knowing what "normal" family life is ( if there is such a thing, maybe better to say- order, lack of chaos, people not being verbally abusive to each other) - that's where you and their father have input. You provide the example of "normal" for them.

You are noticing the cognitive dissonance and it's confusing. What they say and what you see are not the same thing.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Exactly! It wasn't just not telling - it was presenting BPD mother as wonderful. This is also prevalent in her FOO- they tell me how wonderful she is.

Combine this cognitive dissonance with being blamed for BPD mother's behaviors when I was a teen. If she's a wonderful mother and yet behaves like this, and it's my fault - what does this mean about me?

It's no surprise that this impacted my self esteem. In addition, I feared that if anyone knew about BPD mother, it meant they'd not like me as if they also would think it was my fault.  I was afraid to say anything.

And where is the sense of normal? We grow up not knowing what "normal" family life is ( if there is such a thing, maybe better to say- order, lack of chaos, people not being verbally abusive to each other) - that's where you and their father have input. You provide the example of "normal" for them.

You are noticing the cognitive dissonance and it's confusing. What they say and what you see are not the same thing.

The sense of what's "normal" really factored into my decision to leave.  It wasn't the sole issue, but I figured being able to give my kid at least some time that was normal would allow her to separate herself from her mom's mental issues & disordered thinking, and allow her space to develop as a human being.

When people here ask about whether they should stay or go, I try to explain that was part of my calculation, even though it's more guesswork than objective numbers...

It's a hard choice, b/c divorce creates so many other problems, and you also figure there are "good times" when mom isn't disordered, so it's not all bad.  But I hated the way BPDxw would demand everyone else admit the sky was purple when we'd see it was blue, and I didn't want my D growing up and seeing me go along with that.

[kells76]

Notwendy;

If she's a wonderful mother and yet behaves like this, and it's my fault - what does this mean about me?

Yeah, I'm concerned about this for the kids. SD16 may be able to process it even though it's painful, but SD14 often stuffs/hides feelings and I worry she'll turn to worse coping mechanisms to make it through. SD14 does have (or at least last I heard, had) a counselor, so there's that.

PeteWitsend:

you also figure there are "good times" when mom isn't disordered, so it's not all bad.

I think the "highs" and "good times" with Mom and Stepdad have probably felt really good to the kids. So that is part of the challenge -- it's not like there's something like "they hit you and yelled at you all the time" to point at as not OK behavior. Makes it confusing, I'd suspect.

...

Update from yesterday.

DH talked with SD16 about how things were going and let her know that he had seen and heard a lot and had some guesses. She asked if he knew that Female Family Friend and her husband had divorced, and he said Yes. He also knew that Mom was "out of town" and asked if (a) they knew when Mom was coming back and (b) if Mom and Stepdad were splitting up. SD16 said they didn't know when Mom was coming back. "Maybe in two or three weeks". And that while Mom and Stepdad weren't splitting up, "things are never going to be the same".

(Background: we've stayed away from giving the kids keys to our house in the past, because of not trusting Mom). DH offered to give SD16 housekeys if she ever wanted to come over whenever for a break. She said yes and sounded grateful (which is pretty surprising and different from the past). She did specify though that "it's not a black and white, your house good Mom's house bad kind of thing" and DH said that made sense. She also said that SD14 might have a harder time "feeling supported" by DH.

SD16 wants to get out of town for a few weeks to her grandparents' place (Mom's parents, interestingly, though Mom is not there). She wants to "be alone" and not be at Mom's house for "what's going on there". She said she has a lot more responsibilities there right now. (I don't think it's a bad thing for her to not want that kind of responsibility).

I don't know if she's getting any help coordinating getting to Grandparents, who are out of state but doable in a day trip. I will talk to DH to see if we want to step into that. In the past I would leave it to Mom/Stepdad -- if the kids are telling you they want to see Grandparents, it's your job to do it -- but things are so weird and up in the air that at this point, I'm willing to "overstep" more and more. Mom has not answered any texts from me in weeks and left no instructions or updates about her parenting time.

It's a mess.

[zachira]

I believe your stepdaughters are old enough that court would uphold their coming to live with you and your husband full time if they wanted to do so. Any chance of that happening?

[kells76]

Any chance of that happening?

While it seems more plausible now than before, I think the enmeshment they have with Stepdad and his narratives is too great to overcome at the moment.

It seems tricky legally because there's no "legal" reason that Mom can't decide who the kids spend her parenting time with. And if she decides "during my parenting time I say the kids are with Stepdad" IDK if there's anything we can do about that. Like, there's no "law" that she can't "exercise her parenting time from afar by saying the kids will be with someone else".

She does seem to be abdicating her parental communication responsibilities. I wonder if recording that would mean anything for transferring "tiebreaker" or "decision maker" to DH.

It's also tricky because SD16 is 16 & 1/2. By the time anything got officially signed she would be 18, I'd suspect, unless some crazy emergency happens to speed things up. So I guess it would be a process for SD14... but she has some deep stuff about DH she hasn't worked through yet, so if any word got out to her that DH was using the legal process "against" Mom, I don't know if she has the wherewithal to handle how Mom and Stepdad would still spin that to her.

It may need to be "de facto" moving towards doing more with the kids vs "official". I am trying to sign SD14 up for more volunteering, which is just her and I (no Mom or Stepdad). She LOVES her volunteering work so it at least gets her out of Mom's house.

It rankles me that neither Mom nor Stepdad have officially communicated to DH or I "hey, while Mom is gone, please coordinate with Stepdad". Part of me wanted to "force Mom's hand" via text or email with continually treating her "as if" she is around and responsive, and doing a TON of "If I don't hear back from you by Day/Date I'll assume My Plan with kids is good to go!" So that her stonewalling/abdicating/nonanswer is an answer, and I'm not doing "her job" of figuring out that she's gone. But I am also trying to not be a d!ck about stuff and so I am coordinating with Stepdad. But I'm not sure if that's a good precedent to set.

[zachira]

What are your experiences with and opinions about stepdad's parenting skills? Is he a better parent than his wife?

[kells76]

He has strong NPD traits, so he "comes across" as more fun, involved, warm, etc, but is actually enmeshed with the kids and ropes them into his orbit to reflect his wonderfulness back at him.

[zachira]

Do you have any idea if your stepdaughters have a strong preference/strong dislike for one of the homes they go back and forth between?

[Notwendy]

Update from yesterday.

Female Family Friend and her are divorced.
Mom was "out of town" SD16 said they didn't know when Mom was coming back.
"things are never going to be the same"

D16 said "it's not a black and white, your house good Mom's house bad kind of thing"

She said she has a lot more responsibilities there right now. (I don't think it's a bad thing for her to not want that kind of responsibility).

I can't know for sure but I think D16 knows more than she is letting on, and reading between the lines I think we can suspect there's possibly something going on between SDad and Family Friend, and maybe mom has someone too - and has gone off with him.

You mentioned before that mom and SDad might want to be trendy and consider polyamory with family friend. I have no experience with that, but from what I have heard, it takes good communication between those involved and the ability to manage feelings like jealousy. I think one reason ( of several ) it's not appealing to a lot of people is that it would be difficult to manage emotionally. Managing emotions and honest communication are weak skills for pwBPD. I can imagine their mother initially agreeing to this as it's something they'd act cool and trendy about, but the reality of it was not something she could deal with. If Family Friend was having issues in her marriage, I can imagine her confiding in SDad, his NPD kicks in, and he becomes the good guy to her and things take off.

All this of course is speculation, but it seems something is going on.

SD tempering this with saying it's not like your house is better might be her own fear of saying too much and also fear that it might get back to them. We did not feel comfortable talking about what went on in our house, we'd get in trouble if our parents knew we said anything.

SD16 may be "parentified" in all this. It's good she is able to say it's too much responsibility.

[kells76]

re: zachira:

Do you have any idea if your stepdaughters have a strong preference/strong dislike for one of the homes they go back and forth between?

Because it's basically an 80/20 schedule with majority of time at Mom's, that's what they would say they want/feel comfortable at. Their younger brother is there too, and dynamics growing up were that "they should make him happy" or "he is SOO sad when you leave [for Dad's]". There was lots of FOG about the girls taking care of him/making him feel better. I don't know if they could overcome that.

They don't hate it at our place, we do have more pets , but many of the conflicts over the past years were "I just don't feel comfortable sleeping here, I just don't want to spend the night, why can't you just let me sleep at Mom's house". There is a lot of history of Mom/Stepdad (likely) inducing discomfort in the kids about spending the night at our place. It would probably take months of family therapy to start to move the needle there. If the kids were "told" or it was "hinted" to them that "they are old enough to not do family therapy with Dad and Stepmom" it would be very difficult to make that happen.

As much as Mom has left her responsibilities, she would also at the same time in the same breath work very hard to convince the kids (prob through phone or text) not to do FT with us.

Part of the disorder, I guess: she has literally left the kids behind but would also, with no insight into herself, work very hard to sabotage them getting FT with us.

(sorry, cross posted with Notwendy)

[Notwendy]

There's the self identification as "being a good mother" and also the actual work of parenting. We assume that a good parent also does the tasks of parenting but I think these two can be separated with someone with BPD.

Handing over the girls to you and Dad for  FT custody is at odd with the image of being a good mother. This is how she could leave them, but also not allow you two to have custody.

[zachira]

Kells76,
I admire how you are making important differences in the lives of your stepdaughters. It sounds like it is very hard for them to have a healthy relationship with you and their father because of all the parent alienation and enmeshment with their mother and stepfather. You are doing a great job of listening to your stepdaughters and showing you really care about their wellbeing which is supporting their becoming healthy adults.

[kells76]

There's the self identification as "being a good mother" and also the actual work of parenting. We assume that a good parent also does the tasks of parenting but I think these two can be separated with someone with BPD.

That sounds accurate in our situation Notwendy, as she was writing a nasty email to DH about "the kids don't want a weekend trade, it's too hard for them to be at your house 3 weekends in a row" while she was out of the state.

zachira:

It sounds like it is very hard for them to have a healthy relationship with you and their father because of all the parent alienation and enmeshment with their mother and stepfather.

yeah. It's hard to see how strong the dysfunctional ties are at a time like this, when instead of DH and I being able to take more care of the kids, it's the "status quo" because SD14 can't allow herself to see how hurtful Mom and Stepdad are (which would be visible if she spent more time here as a natural outcome), and SD16 has to say "it's not that your house is all that good" so it feels fair.

Even though it seems like a moment to change the tides, the history is too much for the kids to overcome right now.

...

The question for DH and me is: how much to support the kids in taking the trip out of state to see their grandparents (Mom's parents).

Again, normally I would stay out of it, and let the kids be disappointed by Mom's perpetual failures to follow through.

This time it seems like the higher priority is getting the kids away from whatever is going on at Mom's house, and because we cannot use our house as a place for them to go more, the "agreeable" option seems to be Grandparents.

Last time I tried to do something helpful and supportive for SD14 (getting her into counseling), Mom exploded and likely shared a lot of the negativity with the kids, but ultimately SD14 did get into counseling.

What I don't want to have happen is for my efforts to support the kids to lead to them getting exposed to manipulation, outbursts, and negativity. I get that "that horse left the barn" a while ago, yet it's not like "oh because it happened to you a lot already, it's OK to put you in the middle again now".

DH got the sense that SD16 hadn't told Mom about this plan.

So I guess DH and I need to ask the kids if they have given Stepdad a heads up, and if Grandparents know they want to come up. And, I guess, ask if they have transportation covered. I can't imagine Stepdad driving them up and back (again, ~6+ hour drive) but who knows.

[mama-wolf]

Hey kells76,

Just finally jumping in here to offer what support I can.  I caught up on the other thread and on this one, and I am not surprised at all that the situation has been triggering some hypervigilance.  Even with all the uncertainty that you are understandably feeling, I just wanted to say that you are doing a great job of keeping what's best for the kids in the forefront--even if the circumstances, environment, and timing make some potential changes unlikely.

I agree with the observation that SD16 is probably being parentified, which will make it that much harder (on top of everything else) to speak up and ask for support.  I take it that's why direct statements and questions are probably easier for her.  And I agree that given the current situation, stepping in to offer assistance with the trip to the grandparents is a good idea.  From what you have said, it seems to feel right in your gut, and I think you should trust that...

Sending hugs 
mw

[kells76]

update. again this last weekend, SD14 was positive that "this Monday we're going up to see Mom". Again it didn't happen. What did happen was apparently Stepdad left on a business trip for 3 days?. Neither he nor Mom told DH or I about it. This was even with me texting Stepdad to figure out me taking SD14 to an activity on Monday. SD14 is sure now that the trip to see Mom will happen this Friday night after DH's PT is done.

I asked SD14 what she was looking forward to during the trip. She mentioned seeing Grandma and Grandpa and cousins, the adventure of the road trip, etc, but not seeing Mom. I didn't ask. She might just not want to talk to me about being excited to see Mom, or it might be something else.

Apparently it's just SD16, SD14, and their brother (9) home alone. SD14 thinks they will go to Female Family Friend's house at some point. I get that 16 & 14 isn't like leaving little kids at home. Still not happy about it.

I dropped off some snacks for them after dropping SD14 off yesterday, & let both the kids know to text or call me or DH if they needed anything.

[Notwendy]

It don't know if it's negligence in the legal sense, but IMHO, it's also not wise to leave 16, 14 and 9 home alone for an extended period of time and both parents out of town?

Even more aggravating that they could have gone to your place if not for this kind of drama.

But this is just wacked up. Sure let the kids stay by themselves after school, or if you go out to dinner,  but both parents out of town for 3 days? No way.

[mama-wolf]

I'm with Notwendy...

Apparently it's just SD16, SD14, and their brother (9) home alone. SD14 thinks they will go to Female Family Friend's house at some point. I get that 16 & 14 isn't like leaving little kids at home. Still not happy about it.

I wouldn't be either!  And 16 & 14 isn't all that young, but 9 is.  I take it SD16 is responsible for younger brother's care for three days while Stepdad is away on the trip?  This calls back to the parentification concern from earlier in the thread...

mw

[kells76]

Notwendy:

Even more aggravating that they could have gone to your place if not for this kind of drama.

Right. If/when Mom even asked in the past, it was always framed as "the kids don't really want to spend the night at your house, and I asked them and they said they'd rather stay elsewhere, but I'm going out of town so if they want to can they stay with you?" Always the backhanded putdown. She doesn't parent, as parenting would be saying to the kids: Dad and I decided you will be with him Wednesday night and with Other Person Thursday night. It's always a triangle: "I'm the one who really listens to the kids [hero/rescuer] and helps them [kids are victims], they don't want to be with you [persecutor/villain]"

mama-wolf: thanks for hopping on this one and giving your thoughts, I appreciate it.

I take it SD16 is responsible for younger brother's care for three days while Stepdad is away on the trip?  This calls back to the parentification concern from earlier in the thread...

yes, exactly.

[ForeverDad]

Is there any ROFR (Right of First Refusal) in the parenting order, or anything that would address when parents are absent for an extended time?

[kells76]

Is there any ROFR (Right of First Refusal) in the parenting order, or anything that would address when parents are absent for an extended time?

Nope. I can't remember if there was debate about having that or not, back when DH & Mom went through legally hashing out a real PP.

Upside is that Mom can't "grab" DH's PT if he has a work thing on a kid weekend, and has less ground to try to micromanage who the kids are around when DH isn't there. Downside is exactly this.

[kells76]

update:

so last night Mom sends a text to DH. Note, Mom hadn't been responding to my texts, and hadn't texted either of us about her "trip" or Stepdad's trip.

She basically said (trying to remember the text) hey, you know my birthday is coming up, would you be willing to trim your Friday time shorter or trade it for "some other day this summer that you have off of work" so that "we" don't have to make the >6 hour drive up Friday night to celebrate "up there" on Saturday?

Um... wow. Texting as if she is down here.

I told DH if it were me I'd say "thanks for asking, we already have plans" (which we do).

Kind of jaw dropping.

Also not our problem if she hasn't figured out a better plan than making Stepdad and the kids do an overnight drive. Dude... they can leave early the next day. And if she wants "all day" on her birthday with the kids, gee, she could drive down herself.

I anticipate her complaining to the kids and the kids feeling like we're the bad guys for "making them drive overnight". SD16 hates night drives. Interestingly SD14 already said she was fine with that plan.

UGH.