Groundwork

[FrozenBerry]

Hi all,
this is my first post, so please be patient with me 
I'm a long time lurker on this site and have learnt so much from the tools, tips, and reading other posts, I can't thank you all enough 
I am in a new relationship with someone whose mother seems to fit the bill of BPD (traits). He lives with his mum (we are in our early 30s, and from a culture where this would be considered highly unusual). After reading on here, especially about Karpman triangles, I've realized that the best advice for me is to stay firmly 'in my lane' and away from their drama as much as humanly possible. However, every once in a while my partner will attempt to draw me in. He now wants me to build a relationship with his mum and go on outings (think: weekend day trip) with the two of them.
I'm scared for a number of reasons: I have strong avoidant tendencies. I easily get overwhelmed with social commitments that come with relationships. I do not really want or need a close relationship with his mum, I would be satisfied to stay cordial. His mum already does not like me (admitted to him she worries about him leaving her and moving in with me), and tells my partner things to paint me in a bad light (this is something I have reason to suspect but can't prove at this point). I do not want to expose myself to her and her criticism more than absolutely necessary. I also suspect that my partner lives in a fantasy world where somehow me 'getting along' with his mum will make his life easier. He is deep in the FOG and she lays it on thick for him spending any time with me (leaving her in the house by herself, which she doesn't like). So I feel like the motivation for him is to try and have his cake and eating it by spending time with me without accusations of abandonment by his mum. I might be overly pessimistic here, but I don't think it will work.

How do I make sure this daytrip does not turn out a desaster? Alternatively, how do I get out of going? I should add that my partner is highly protective of his mum, who he sees in 'victim', and bristles at any perceived rejection of her on her behalf (just to give you an idea: once, I got reprimanded for using her CORRECT job title in a conversation with him (without her), because he felt that 'I meant it in a way that carried a negative connotation'. Super defensive)

Appreciate any insight! My current plan is to grey rock, but I have no experience doing this and could really need some advice...

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hello !

So... From my experience and perspective :

1) No amount of spending time with the two of them, or with her, will change the fact she will never like you. You will always be a threat to her relationship with her son, and no amount of bending over will change that, so better to stick with your boundary i.e., staying cordial, not getting enmeshed.

2) I will take it a notch further... If you do end up going for the weekend, be aware that she will be looking for who you are, and pwBPD are good to read others and find what make them ticks. The more she knows, the more munition she has to try and turn her son against you. If I am painting a dark scenario, it is because it is. The level of enmeshment you are talking about means there is no reality in which you and her become close or friendly... It is sad, but it is the heart of the illness. My mother still hate my sister in law, always talking behind her back, and my brother was nowhere as close as what you described between your partner and his mother.

3) Do not ever let your partner guiltrip you and bring you into the Karpman triangle. A good boundary could be, simply, not to discuss his mother, other than if scheduling for coffee or a brunch. Let him come to you, but do not breach the subject yourself maybe?

Other users with mother in law's with BPD will surely pitch in, who have lots of experience and wisdom on dealing with this particular dynamic, and making the relationship works.

This is not easy, jumping into a family with a borderline dynamic! We will be here for your venting and to support you whenever you need it !

[FrozenBerry]

If you do end up going for the weekend, be aware that she will be looking for who you are, and pwBPD are good to read others and find what make them ticks. The more she knows, the more munition she has to try and turn her son against you.

Riverwolf, thank you for your reply and welcome. It means so much.

What you write is hard to hear, but confirms my suspicions that I can't win here. I agree, it is very sad. I feel for both her, as she is desperately isolated, and my partner, who really is in a tricky position and tries so hard to make her happy.

Your warning in the excerpt I quote sent shivers down my spine. I know that his mum played a role in the breakdown of my partners two previous relationships. I have no illusions she will be suddenly different with me. Maybe catching on early will help me, but at the end of the day she has decades of experience getting him to choose her. I've come to accept that all of this is beyond my control.

So I guess my question remains how can I explain my reservations to my partner without 'blaming' his mum? In a way, this feels similar to what I have read others describe as the battle to be seen as 'the reasonable one' between me and his mum, who allegedly is enthusiastic about the idea of us getting to know each other better. Also, because I have kept such a low profile nothing has really happened between her and I that I can point to as a reason for avoiding her (if I am at their house, she mostly ignores me  ).

Would it be best to BIFF, even though my partner is not BPD himself and tends to do well with explanations?

[Methuen]

 Welcome FrozenBerry!

It sounds like you have a good grasp of the situation.  From his mothers point of view, you are a threat to her relationship with her son.  She is afraid he will leave her for you.  Does this sound accurate?  

Her son lives with her (he is in his 30’s).  She has BPD.  He is defensive of her.  This is a   flag for enmeshment. If he is enmeshed with her, you are right in saying you need to stay off the Karpman triangle.  

My questions are these:

How well does he understand BPD?  Does he understand her fear of abandonment?  Does he understand that she has probably played a roll in the reason his previous two relationships didn’t work out?  Does he see that she controls his feelings?   Does he wonder why she may be vying for this date with you if she already paints you black?

I agree with RiverWOlf that it is possible  she wants to get to know you better so that she can find a reason to drive a wedge between you and him.  You say she’s already painting you black.  Can you tell us how she is doing this?

How long have you and your BF been together?

 

How do I make sure this daytrip does not turn out a desaster?

Avoid sharing personal information or stories. If she is quizzing you stick to the bare facts.  BIFF is good.  Redirect the conversation to be about her.  Get her talking about herself.  Give her lots of attention. 

Are you anxious about this day trip? 

Can you arrange to meet them somewhere, so that you can leave on your own terms when you are ready?  I’m thinking it might be good to build in an escape valve with some kind of plan to ease your anxiety.  What do you think?

[Notwendy]

I will join Methuen with the 

What is unusual for a man your partner's age is the enmeshment with his mother. Due to the pandemic, some adult children may move back with parents for economic reasons, however, they still want their own independence. An adult child might be in a living arrangement to care for an elderly or disabled parent. Even living apart, enmeshment is possible.

It's good that you have been on this board and been reading about such dynamics. It's not just his mother, it's him too- it's the relationship between them.

Not his fault- many of us have grown up with dysfunctional dynamics and we want to be our own independent adults. It's been said that a man who is kind to his mother will be kind to his wife. I'd be concerned if he wasn't kind to her. I think on our part, we strive to be kind to our parents but have situations where we also need to have boundaries to some extent with a mother with BPD.

Enmeshment is different. Since your partner grew up with this, this is how he knows to relate to his mother. It's familiar to him. He doesn't know any other way to relate to her and if he did have more boundaries, she likely would not be happy about it. This presents a dilemma for him though. If he wants an independent relationship with someone else (you), she likely won't be happy about that. None of us wants to have our parent be unhappy about us, but an emotionally healthy parent with boundaries wants the same thing- for their child to be happy with a partner of their own, so this isn't a conflict with the adult child's needs. A pwBPD may see their child as an extension of themselves, with the purpose of meeting the parent's needs, and so a partner would be a threat to that.

It's not that your partner's mother doesn't like you, personally. She won't be pleased with anyone he likes because that person is a threat to her needs. I agree with the others- remain pleasant, polite to her, but trying to get her to like you may not be possible.

. I also suspect that my partner lives in a fantasy world where somehow me 'getting along' with his mum will make his life easier. He is deep in the FOG and she lays it on thick for him spending any time with me (leaving her in the house by herself, which she doesn't like). So I feel like the motivation for him is to try and have his cake and eating it by spending time with me without accusations of abandonment by his mum. I might be overly pessimistic here, but I don't think it will work.


I think you are being realistic. The idea of upsetting his mother is probably very stressful for him. It is for many of us- we have grown up walking on eggshells around our parents. Yet, he also wants a relationship with you too. The solution for him is to have his mother like you, but just like you can't "make" her like you, neither can he. She could choose to like you, but as she has a disorder, the dynamics between her and anyone else would be disordered.

For those of us who grew up with a BPD parent, it is possible to work on enmeshment issues- as many of us have done and still are doing- because we want to have our own independence. Ideally, we'd have a good relationship with our BPD parents but as you have seen here- our parents are not happy with our boundaries. They perceive this as us being mean to them or not giving them what they want. We wish this weren't the case but it is. So in a way, we have the difficult choice of choosing our own independence or attempting to meet the parent's needs.

Your partner wants a win win situation- mother is happy and he has his girlfriend.

  - the red flag is with him. This is his issue. It's not yours to solve. The issue is his FOG with his mother. The relationship is a familiar pattern to him- as I said, it's not his fault he was raised this way. This is the sense of "normal" we were taught and it was necessary for our own survival in our family as children. It's when this "normal" becomes dysfunctional with our adult relationships that we begin to question it.

I think you have shown good boundaries by not getting too far into his relationship with his mother. It may appear as if his struggle is between the two of you, but it's actually between him and her. How willing is he to develop boundaries with her? Is he able to? Because even as much as you care for him, she's going to be part of his life too. With emotionally healthy adults, it is possible for a man to love his partner and his mother- not in the same way of course, but it's not a competition. How a BPD mother perceives this may be different.

How do you get out of the outing? Bow out gracefully. Be true to yourself about what you are comfortable with and what you are not. You are not comfortable with this. It may be scary to be up front with your partner but if you go along with this and you don't want to, you are going along with the attempt to get her to like you. On the other hand, even if someone doesn't like their partner's family, their partner is connected to them so there is some contact. It may be that dinner is easier than an outing.

If the idea of any contact with her just is too much for you- that is your own boundaries warning you. Consider - how would this be for you over the long term. If the two of you have children together, this will be their grandmother. If you want boundaries with her, your partner needs to be able to manage that as well.

[FrozenBerry]

Hi Methuen,
yes, you are spot on. I do believe he is severely enmeshed. He has his own opinions in other regards, and sometimes is able to express where his preferences differ from hers (very rarely  ), but I can tell when she ropes him in. He will go into panic mode, start saying things like "we want x", "we think y" refering to his mum and himself, and her feelings become the only thing he cares about (taking decisions that hurt his career, finances and health, as well as our relationship, but unable to see that as a problem).

How well does he understand BPD?

Not very well, as far as I can tell, although he has developed strategies to mitigate the behaviours that resemble some of the tools. I used the Heard-Depp trial as an opportunity to innocently start a conversation on BPD, but he does not seem to recognize his mum in the traits. This is despite the fact that he has described his mum to me in language close to the official criteria, i.e. that everything is all good or all bad with her (no middle ground) and that she can be emotional and was violent during his childhood. 

Does he understand her fear of abandonment?

Yes, he attributes it to her bad luck of having been abandoned by everyone all her life (her brothers, parents, her extended family, his father, his younger sister). He has promised to never abandon her like everyone else did. He does not see a pattern, and has dismissed the idea when I brought it up in the past.

Does he understand that she has probably played a roll in the reason his previous two relationships didn’t work out?

Yes, but he blames his ex gfs for not getting along with her.

Does he see that she controls his feelings?

I do not think he realizes the extent of it. He cannot recognise the change in his behaviour when she is triggered. He does say that he can't be happy if she is not, but will claim that it's normal to feel affected if someone close to you is having a bad time. While that might be true, I do not feel that the intensity with which he feels her emotions is normal.

Does he wonder why she may be vying for this date with you if she already paints you black?

He credits her with keeping an open mind and giving it a try for his sake ( ) even though her and I 'got off to a bad start'.

I don't know if I am painted fully black. I only learn what my partner chooses to share with me from their conversations. Allegedly, I am rude, I ignore her, I don't thank her enough for making me dinner. I suspect she is adding instances of me being rude that never happened (because if I ask for details my partner will get very vague and say it doesn't matter) but of course I can't prove I wasn't rude in a situation that never happened    We have been together for a year at this point, and I could not adore him more.

Thank you for the suggestions, Riverwolf as well, to not discuss her issues with him, and give her less personal information and more attention if I can. This is not in my nature (I'm not the enthusiastic type) but I will give it a shot!

Also, thanks to your encouragement I have said no to the road trip. It would have involved hours in a car together and leave me completely trapped. I like the idea of doing something that gives me more wriggle room.

Is there anything else I can do to protect myself from false allegations? I know this has been a go-to of pwBPD in the past (mainly allegations of theft, but also a weird story about one of my partners exes allegedly coming into her bedroom at night unclothed (?). My partner's explanation was that his ex must have panicked and gotten lost, however to me it seems more plausible that it never happened... )

[FrozenBerry]

Notwendy, thank you so much for this account. You are right, I have read a lot of stories here on PSI and it breaks my heart. You are exactly correct. My partner has expressed in the past that he feels like he is stuck between a rock and a hard place choosing between the two of us (his mum and me). It shouldn't be this way - but yet that is his reality.

  - the red flag is with him. This is his issue. It's not yours to solve. The issue is his FOG with his mother.

 It may be scary to be up front with your partner but if you go along with this and you don't want to, you are going along with the attempt to get her to like you.

Thank you for this helpful perspective. I agree that being honest is probably the thing I need to do. If that creates conflict between him and I, better to know now where I stand.

Consider - how would this be for you over the long term. If the two of you have children together, this will be their grandmother. If you want boundaries with her, your partner needs to be able to manage that as well.
 

This plays on my mind quite a bit. I guess time will tell if he is willing to risk conflict with his mum to keep me. His sister and his mum have been NC since she introduced a serious partner to her mother about five years ago. Apparently they were close before. If this is anything to go by, things might get much worse if our relationship gets more serious 

So much to think about! Thank you for all of your thoughts, I will need some time to process it all.

[Notwendy]

Is there anything else I can do to protect myself from false allegations?

Please keep in mind - this is not about you. It's about her and her perception. Unfortunately it's not possible to control how anyone else thinks and feels. She might think you are a pink elephant but her thinking that doesn't make you one. The best you can do is act according to your own values such as being polite, cordial. We can all do nice things for others in general if we choose to- but we can't make someone like us.

One of my fears growing up was that somehow having a disordered mother made me less desirable- that people would not want to be my friend or date me because of my mother. Logically, I am not my mother and not responsible for her behavior, but growing up in such dynamics we feel somehow as if they are disordered, it means we are less desirable as well. I was afraid to tell people about my mother, as if they might dump me because of that. I am not enmeshed with her, but still have to work on boundaries with her.

So, I would not ever suggest that having a BPD mother makes us undesirable partners, but enmeshment and disordered dynamics can make a romantic relationship with someone else difficult unless we want to change our part in it. I am sure your boyfriend has many great qualities and you love him for these. Rarely do we ever make a long term commitment with one person alone, but it's a union of two families. Even in the best of circumstances, there's often a family member who is annoying and we put up with them from time to time. Enmeshment is different. Please keep in mind that if your partner is unable or unwilling to have boundaries with his mother, that these two are a "package deal" of sorts. This relationship is between the two of them. Your own boundary is if you wish to choose this situation.

[Methuen]

He has promised to never abandon her like everyone else did. He does not see a pattern, and has dismissed the idea when I brought it up in the past.

This is not good.  And I feel you are already aware of this.  You are truly doing your groundwork.

I am the only child of a uBPD mom.  I was an enmeshed daughter.  I can tell you it is complicated and distressing to disentangle oneself from the dysfunctional emotions of a parent who has brainwashed and trained you to be their caretaker.  And I had awareness towards the end - but not until things became sustained crazy in my 50’s. .  He doesn’t sound like he has awareness.  The process of individuation  has taken me years.

What I can share with you is that when I was still enmeshed, I would do anything to avoid upsetting her because I was so afraid of the things she would say to me.  I was terrified of my own mother.  She would tell me I was selfish.  How could I treat her like this when she gave up everything to raise me?  My terror of displeasing her was beyond comprehension.  It is deep psychological manipulation because she needed me to manage her own feelings and make her feel whole inside, since she couldn’t do that herself.  

I think it is worse for son’s than daughters.  She has already made him promise he will never leave her.  

Lets start to unpack that.  What kind of person makes her son promise this?  Why is he living with her instead of living independently?  What lengths will he go to in order to avoid upsetting her?  How will this affect you in the future?

It sounds like you already see the issue, and have concerns. You are truly doing groundwork here.  There will always be 3 in this relationship, unless he develops awareness and decides to individuate from her.  When your relationship with him is in it’s  mid-life instead of the honeymoon phase, he is going to have to make some hard decisions.  His love for you may be absolute, but his fear of her may be what guides his decisions, which will impact you.

For example,  her definition of abandonment and his are probably different.  What if you decide to marry or co-habitate?  Where will the two of you live?  

If he moves out of his mother’s house, she is going to see that and feel it as abandonment.  But he has promised to never abandon her.  I cannot emphasize enough the  power of the fear of causing distress to a uBPD mother’s feelings. He may want you to move into their house with them.  This would be a serious red flag if it comes up.  

If it doesn’t come, it’s a healthy sign.

There is no way to “win” where BPD is involved.  There is nothing you can do to change this triangle.  No words or good deeds on your part will make a difference.  

I agree with NotWendy that this is his problem.  He needs awareness, and is going to need gumption and big boy pants to navigate his relationship with her.

From what you have seen, does he have boundaries with his mom?  Does he hold them?

You have a solid head on your shoulders.  You know yourself.  I applaud you for deciding not to do the day trip.  This is a solidly rational decision.  You have a boundary and you are holding it. I just have  to tell you I am super impressed by that.  

Continue to stay in your lane.  You’re doing great.

[Riv3rW0lf]

FrozenBerry,

Again, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is just nothing you can do to prevent her painting you black and spreading lies on you... Truthfully, the best protection is to stay away, then the only thing she can blame you for is : "not getting close and not coming to visit".

When my sister in law visited, came to diners, shared her children with my mother, my mother would scapegoat her like crazy... And I am deeply sad to admit I didn't see clearly, was enmeshed, and myself hurt my sister in law, a relationship I am now working on repairing. She would paint her as a bad mother to her own kids, said things to them such as : she doesn't like you. She told me she abused her son, didn't love him, didn't take care of him. Many, many lies. She would go against her wishes on many things... While my sister in law would help set the table, cleanup and be polite, cordial and with a calm happy demeanor.

Now my sister in law has taken many steps back from my mother. When she visits, she goes for walks. She still helps around. She visits MUCH LESS. Like.. once a year or if I was there with my children, because she wanted to meet them.

And my mother still tries to talk against her back, even with no ammunition against her... Which just comes out as a grudge she holds to all of us.

The most frequent blame is now : she never comes to see me anymore, she clearly doesn't like me. To which we all brush our shoulders to.  Because we all get it. We all know she was treated badly. What most of us didn't get when my mother started saying that is why it bothered her after everything she had done and said about sis in law!

Interestingly enough, recently my niece told her grandmother(my BPD mother) why she didn't like her mother. And my mother told her: I just don't know her, she never comes to see me! ... She told me that, like she was a victim. I remember looking at her like a deer caught in headlight, no idea what to answer to that. It was deeply confusing to hear this flip after all those years, after seeing my sister in law cry after my mother told her she was bad mother to her first son, after seeing all the many ways she disrespected her...

Anyway... 

As to how to explain your distance with his mother to your partner, maybe it could simply be something like : I've always valued my independance. I'd be happy to have coffee, or brunch with you guys, but I just feel better when I am independant from my parents, and this include in-laws.

My husband is like that. I visit his parents much more often with my children than he does. They are regular people, no PDs, and safe to be around... But as a teenager, he was scapegoated and a bit neglected because his mother got very sick and his father was away. I know some things happened, albeit I have no idea what exactly. And now : he holds onto his independant like the only plank of wood in the middle of the ocean.

He doesn't want to ask for help on anything to them, and it costs him when I ask him to because, say, we need his father's pickup to get beds for our children (specific, right? ).

And I respect that. Because this is who he is. It is a value. I don't ask him to come with me to my father's house either. He is just independant. That's the end of the talk.

If he loves you, he will accept independance as a value of yours, a part of who you are...

His mother might try to sway him but he can simply answer: this is just who she is, she values her independance and it is not against you. She acts the same with her own family.  Not much to say against that, is there?

[zachira]

My BPD mother did not want any of her children to get married. My mother painted black some pretty decent people who dated my siblings. Only my sister married and my mother was terrible to my BIL, even though he always treated her well. This is really about setting healthy boundaries with your boyfriend. If you do not want any kind of relationship with his mother, there is nothing wrong with that, and it may be the best thing for you, and for your boyfriend. Healthy boundaries are healthy boundaries for everyone involved in your relationship. At some point, your boyfriend is gong to have to choose to put you first if this relationship is going to get more serious. If he can't do that, than his mother will likely interfere so much in your relationship to make it unbearable for you and your boyfriend to stay together, as she has surely done with his former girlfriends, just like my mother did with all the love interests of my siblings. Do you think your boyfriend has the potential to become a separate person in his own right? He would likely need some really strong support, probably long term therapy, to deal with the enmeshment he has with his mother. One of my brothers was a fine man, would have made a wonderful husband, if he could have developed a healthy relationship with himself and learned to put his partner first. The last time, this brother was in a relationship, I told my mother right in front of my brother, I did not want to hear one unkind word about his current girlfriend. Both of them looked very uncomfortable and said nothing.

[beatricex]

hi FrozenBerry,
You are going into a relationship with a highly sensitive person with a suspect BPD mom with eyes wide open.  Really admire you for seeing it for what it is.  You do love your partner precisely because he is sensitive and his past (with his mum) is likely a huge contributor to this emotional sensitivity.  Because she was angry, violent at times, unpredictable, when he was a child, he has learned to read her well.  He is in tune with her, tries to make her happy, even sometimes feels her emotions...  I get it.

I am learning that my own emotional sensitivity can be used as a gift, it can be channeled.  It's not a "curse" as I recently explained to my therapist, it is really a gift.  As long as we (adult children of BPD mothers) recognize this, it is not something to be feared, we can embrace it.

I would gently suggest to your partner to work on boundaries and enmeshment in particular, because he is going to continue to struggle with girlfriends (this is not about you) until he gets this.  His mom is controlling his life, as evidenced by he still lives with her in his 30's and in the end she has a negative opinion about all of his girlfriends, after at first liking them she dislikes them strongly.

I think as long as you coach it in positive terms, there is hope for this relationship, he sounds like a great guy.  You are identifying things that will be a problem later, if your relationship becomes more serious, that's a good thing.

I think it was really smart of you to forgo the road trip outing with his mum too.

An article I keep going back to because it really helps me is:
https://positivepsychology.com/emotion-regulation-worksheets-strategies-dbt-skills/?msID=814ff226-0b6c-4004-bd3c-a99cac8c5269

Emotional dysregulation is really the thing to study, because that is what happens automatically when people we care about don't "like" us.  We become distraught over the idea of this.  It's natural.  This is your partner's mum, you want her to like you.  He wants her to like you.
The idea that emotions are contagious, and emotional dysregulation especially is important for both you and your partner to understand.  If he realizes that when his mum paints you black, it's about her feelings not anything inherently wrong with you, then that is encouraging.  If he "takes her side" and starts to dislike you, or gets upset and blames you, then he is in enmeshment, and he is not seeing his part in this.  You won't get his mum to see her part, but it's important for your relationship to get your partner to see his part, when this happens.  My husband and I have done a lot of work on this because he was enmeshed with his youngest daughter when I met him.  There was and still is a lot of competition, jealousy, dislike (probably an understatement since she demanded her dad divorce me), etc etc.  Her language is indicative of this dislike of me, she says things like I'm not a "blood relative" and she is, so my husband should "pick her" over me.  Healthy relationships don't demand you give up your love for another person and only love one person in the family.  That is the tell-tale sign the person has a personality disorder because as we all know, there's room in all of our hearts to love everyone, parents, children, spouses, etc, all at once.

Please share more, curious to know what happened after you decided not to go on the outing.

b

[FrozenBerry]

So many questions, and such useful ones to help me sort my head out. I cannot tell you how validating it is to read your stories and insights.

One of my fears growing up was that somehow having a disordered mother made me less desirable- that people would not want to be my friend or date me because of my mother. Logically, I am not my mother and not responsible for her behavior, but growing up in such dynamics we feel somehow as if they are disordered, it means we are less desirable as well. I was afraid to tell people about my mother, as if they might dump me because of that.

Please keep in mind that if your partner is unable or unwilling to have boundaries with his mother, that these two are a "package deal" of sorts. This relationship is between the two of them. Your own boundary is if you wish to choose this situation.

Yes, I recognize this fear and shame in my partner. It took a long time for him to open up to me about his family situation, and he does feel weird (like he is defective, doesn't belong) when I talk about my healthy family relationships. I agree that if I want him in my life, she will be part of that too. Given my relationship with her is so distant at the moment I probably have not really seen more than the tip of the iceberg, so it does feel a little bit like buying a mystery parcel 
For now, I have decided I can take it and it's worth it. However, at some point I will have to decide whether I'm willing to make more significant commitments I can't unravel quickly.

What I can share with you is that when I was still enmeshed, I would do anything to avoid upsetting her because I was so afraid of the things she would say to me.  I was terrified of my own mother.  She would tell me I was selfish.  How could I treat her like this when she gave up everything to raise me?  My terror of displeasing her was beyond comprehension.  It is deep psychological manipulation because she needed me to manage her own feelings and make her feel whole inside, since she couldn’t do that herself.

Yes, this is precisely what I observe, although I'll probably never be able to comprehend it fully. It is so weird to me to see this large, confident man so terrified of a small older woman. As you say, it makes no rational sense - her bargaining position should be terrible, as she is so dependent on him for everything. Yet somehow, he is the one that feels like he has no choice but to be and do what she demands of him.

Why is he living with her instead of living independently?  What lengths will he go to in order to avoid upsetting her?  How will this affect you in the future?

When your relationship with him is in it’s  mid-life instead of the honeymoon phase, he is going to have to make some hard decisions.  His love for you may be absolute, but his fear of her may be what guides his decisions, which will impact you.

My understanding is that individuation was never allowed. When he went to university, she moved with him. Same when he left university and started a job. They have been living in their current home for about two years after he relocated for work, and chose their house together.
His enmeshment with his mum already affects our relationship (and therefore me), mainly in that he can become unavailable at any moment. One of the worst instances of this was when him and I had planned a visit to a theme park I was really excited for, and he cancelled last minute because his mum got an email that upset her and he felt like he needed to stay home to help her craft a reply (he doesn't like her being on her own when she's upset, as 'she doesn't have anyone but me'). I went anyway and took a friend, but being stood up like that didn't feel great.
How this will play out when the issues are more important is anyone's guess. On another occasion, she complained about having me at their house. My partner's reaction to this was to no longer invite me to their house, but instead spending more time at mine, keeping constant how much we saw each other. Apparently, his mum liked this even less (him being away from the house), so I was quickly allowed back to theirs. I guess the fact that he did not reduce the amount of time he spent with me in this instance would be him holding a boundary of his?

For example,  her definition of abandonment and his are probably different.  What if you decide to marry or co-habitate?  Where will the two of you live? 

If he moves out of his mother’s house, she is going to see that and feel it as abandonment.  But he has promised to never abandon her.  I cannot emphasize enough the  power of the fear of causing distress to a uBPD mother’s feelings. He may want you to move into their house with them.  This would be a serious red flag if it comes up. 

Definitely, my definition of abandonment is different than hers - an adult child having their own house would not be abandoning to me. Yet, with her, absolutely would qualify. Living with them is not something I would ever consider. Interestingly, my partner has mentioned that he would like to live together at some point in the future. At that moment, I bit my tongue and did not ask whether that plan would include his mum or not..moving in together is not something I am interested in at the moment, as I prefer to live alone, so this is not a conversation we are having right now.

There is no way to “win” where BPD is involved.  There is nothing you can do to change this triangle.  No words or good deeds on your part will make a difference. 

Continue to stay in your lane.  You’re doing great.

Doesn't feel like I'm doing great, but thank you for the encouragement! It is well needed. I might take this as permission to stop worrying quite so much about managing issues related to his mum. While I do not like accepting that there is nothing I can do, I guess the flip side is that it is not my fault, and will not be my fault if/when things go sideways. I will try to hold on to that as my silver lining.

Again, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is just nothing you can do to prevent her painting you black and spreading lies on you... Truthfully, the best protection is to stay away, then the only thing she can blame you for is : "not getting close and not coming to visit".

Thanks for giving me a glimpse of a possible future through the story of your sister-in-law. This really makes me feel better about wanting to keep my distance, even a year into the relationship.

And now : he holds onto his independant like the only plank of wood in the middle of the ocean.

If he loves you, he will accept independance as a value of yours, a part of who you are...

His mother might try to sway him but he can simply answer: this is just who she is, she values her independance and it is not against you. She acts the same with her own family.  Not much to say against that, is there?

I love your description of your husband clinging to his independence, and indeed I am fiercely independent myself too. I really like this suggestion, I feel like it might work well. In fact, my partner and I have had a number of conversations/arguments about my need for space, which is more than average, so he might accept this as not about his mum, but just a me-problem.

My BPD mother did not want any of her children to get married. Do you think your boyfriend has the potential to become a separate person in his own right?

This sounds very much like her  She has told both her children to not have kids or start families, as children ruin your life  who would say that to their own children? Anyway, I know you get it. Whether my partner will be able to move away from her ideas for him when push comes to shove, I really don't know.

You are going into a relationship with a highly sensitive person with a suspect BPD mom with eyes wide open.  Really admire you for seeing it for what it is.  You do love your partner precisely because he is sensitive and his past (with his mum) is likely a huge contributor to this emotional sensitivity.  Because she was angry, violent at times, unpredictable, when he was a child, he has learned to read her well.  He is in tune with her, tries to make her happy, even sometimes feels her emotions...  I get it.

I am learning that my own emotional sensitivity can be used as a gift, it can be channeled.  It's not a "curse" as I recently explained to my therapist, it is really a gift.  As long as we (adult children of BPD mothers) recognize this, it is not something to be feared, we can embrace it.

I couldn't agree more, and have to say I'm really impressed you were able to distill that so well from my posts - it's precisely his thoughtfulness that I cherish more than anything. In a way, I will forever be grateful to his mum for her part in raising him the way he is and making him who he is today, even if maybe HE would prefer to have had it easier.

Thank you for the link, I'll add it to my reading list!

If he realizes that when his mum paints you black, it's about her feelings not anything inherently wrong with you, then that is encouraging.  If he "takes her side" and starts to dislike you, or gets upset and blames you, then he is in enmeshment, and he is not seeing his part in this.  You won't get his mum to see her part, but it's important for your relationship to get your partner to see his part, when this happens.

He has protected me from her criticisms in the past. I remember one instance where he came to me very happy and told me his mum had said x about me, but it didn't seem to make sense to him and therefore he figured out it is due to her feeling threatened by me. I remember this conversation because he was really proud of himself for not relaying her wishes to me but instead figuring out what was behind her demand, and was a little disappointed I didn't immediately share his happiness. Reason being of course, I was still in shock about his mum saying x about me in the first place. However, looking back, I guess this is an encouraging sign?

[Couscous]

Hi FrozenBerry,

So I used to feel so sorry for my MIL and then one fine day I had the realization that she is a grown up and is actually completely capable of getting a life. By rescuing her my husband and I were actually enabling her and making it possible for her to continue being emotionally dependent on him.

If you haven’t seen the excellent webinars by Jon Taylor on this topic, here’s a link to the first one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ42Ga84Gos

One of the things that stood out to me from that webinar was the need for the enmeshed person to be willing to give up their “special status” in the eyes of their parent. This is something that I actually just went through with my father as I began “unmeshing” from him, and it has actually been quite a painful experience having to give up our “special relationship”, (my father’s words), and giving up my cherished illusion that our relationship was not completely dysfunctional. I can see how this “special status” was part of the payoff for me in remaining enmeshed with him, and it enabled me to avoid the risk of finding out that his love for me was entirely conditional. I think this played a huge part in my unwillingness to cut the apron strings back in adolescence.  

So all that to say, recovering from enmeshment is no easy task, and you would be wise to set your expectations of your partner accordingly.

[Couscous]

My partner's reaction to this was to no longer invite me to their house, but instead spending more time at mine, keeping constant how much we saw each other. Apparently, his mum liked this even less (him being away from the house), so I was quickly allowed back to theirs. I guess the fact that he did not reduce the amount of time he spent with me in this instance would be him holding a boundary of his?

You and your partner deserve and need privacy. If I were in your shoes my boundary would be that I would not spend any time at his place.

[Notwendy]

The idea that his mother went to college with him got my attention. My kids would absolutely be aghast at the idea and I would not ever even consider it. I love my kids but I see doing that is a huge disservice to them. College is their first chance at being on their own. Sure, parents can be a support if needed, but my take on this is that she didn't go with him to be supportive for his needs. This didn't meet his needs. She went to his college to meet her needs.

This is very different from a college student's decision to live at home and go to a nearby college to save money, or go away and move back if there's financial need. In this case, the adult child decides the living situation to meet their needs. Parents are the support if needed. The decision is for the adult child's needs. The adult child may also help around the house and other contributions as another adult in the home. It's a cooperative situation.

Although you care about this man very much, I think it's important to consider what you want in a long term relationship with someone. What are deal breakers and what you can compromise on. These are individual- what is important to you.  For example-people may want to marry someone of the same religion because that is important to them. Others may not care if their spouse has a different religion. It's not that there's anything wrong with either person but if their main important values are not aligned - the relationship may not work well for them.

We can't expect people to change for us or marry someone with the hope they will change after marriage. What you see is what you will have later. It appears this man has not ever lived away from his mother. He may like the idea of moving in with you one day, but is it emotionally possible for him? ( meaning he may want to but her response to this may impact him emotionally).

If your wish is to have a partner who can be independent from their parents, and be able to actually manage living away from a parent, you need to consider if this is in line with him. It may be that he tries to do this, but eventually mother has to move in too. Or you move in with him and mother.

Both myself and my H didn't want to live very close to our parents. My H's parents were not BPD, but he wanted independence too.

I understand the fear of upsetting a BPD mother. It might make little sense to see a grown man terrified of a tiny woman but at one time, he was 3 feet tall and she was very scary. I am afraid of upsetting my mother and yet, if I want boundaries with her, I have to accept that this is scary and also she won't like it and that to her, I will be the bad guy. I don't want to be a "bad guy". I don't have any intentions to cause her discomfort, but if I want to have boundaries, I have to be able to tolerate my own emotional distress when she sees me as doing that.



Eventually, your partner is going to have to be able to manage his own feelings if he moves out and upsets his mother. There isn't any other choice. She's not going to be happy about it if it's you, or anyone else, or even if he moves out to live alone. He may need help with this- counseling. But if you don't want to live with his mother, I hope he is motivated to do this.

[FrozenBerry]

I wanted to come back with a update for anyone following or finding this thread in the future.

Since I've ducked out of the weekend trip (with a plausible excuse), the topic has not been brought up again. In retrospect, I believe it came on due to a situation where pwBPD was unhappy about my behaviour at their house (where I put my shoes). Neither her nor my partner said anything to me, but I could tell from his behaviour that it caused conflict between them. This makes me think that as some of you wrote above, asking me to make an effort in 'getting his mum to like me' might be brought on by the discomfort he feels when our relationship causes conflict in theirs. He knows there was nothing wrong with where I put my shoes, so he does not feel like he can blame me for it/ask me to change my behaviour, so he asks me to make an effort instead. It makes me even more determined to resist those demands in the future, as I guess it's an attempt to relieve himself of having to deal with the situation - I heard you all loud and clear that this is his battle, not mine.

This week has been challenging, as mother and son are deep into their next round of drama, leaving all other plans in the dust. I've been rereading all of your responses on a loop to keep me sane  thank you for all the support 

Please keep in mind that if your partner is unable or unwilling to have boundaries with his mother, that these two are a "package deal" of sorts. This relationship is between the two of them. Your own boundary is if you wish to choose this situation.

This remains the question I need to answer for myself.

[Notwendy]

Maybe it would help for you to keep a journal of the drama between them. It's easy to forget when times are good. In actuality, it can be cyclic, as the anger and rage helps her to release her feelings, and so it can be followed by a period of calm. During this time, it's  easy to feel that maybe things will be better this time.

Keeping a journal will help you to see how much of their relationship involves drama and how much of your boyfriend's time, energy, and attention is on his mother ( and not emotionally available for you) and also the impact on you- your sanity. How much of your emotional energy is taken up by their drama.

When you look at this journal over some time, I think it will give you a picture of what to expect in a long term relationship with him. For these dynamics to change- he has to be aware of them and motivated to change and able to manage the response from his mother. It means he has to be able to handle that his mother will be very upset, angry, and hurt and blame him for that.

Although I have been motivated to have boundaries with my mother, the emotional consequences were large and resulted in the loss of a relationship with other family members in her circle who "took her side".

Unfortunately, it appears that with pwBPD one ends up having to choose who to prioritize. It's not a choice anyone wants to make. In an emotionally healthy relationship, his mother would want the best for him- which is to see an adult child become independent and have their own family one day, even if it means we miss them at home. What his mother wants is what she thinks is best for her, and she's willing to interfere with what is best for him to meet her own needs. How much your BF is motivated to resist this is up to him.

[beatricex]

ah, yes the "shoe thing"

My BPD mom also gets spun up if we don't put the shoes in the correct place.  She is severely OCD.  Besides shoes, if forks don't get placed 'Up' in the dishwasher, if crumbs fall on the counter (not a plate) when you're eating a sandwich at the kitchen counter and if you don't adhere to a plethora of other "rules," you're on her s*it list (her term not mine).

Are you prepared to live with your partner, because as children of BPD mothers, we have a lot of baggage.  I had to break all the OCD habits my mother taught me when I left the nest.  My sibling's spouses also complained to me that my brothers were completely unreasonable and had "stupid rules."  They were not our rules, of course, they were our mother's, but is was ingrained in all of us at the point of adulthood to follow those rules.  I mean, we got slapped if we didn't follow them.  There were consequences, punishments. I had to become "anti OCD" if that is a thing.

On a positive note, your partner will probably be super organized and never late! ha 
 
b

[Notwendy]

To be fair, I think everyone brings some baggage about family and cultural rules into marriage and both people have to work them out.

With good communication, rules like "where to put shoes" can be worked out. I think it's harder when BPD mother is the baggage. Not all BOGO are good deals.

Of course if he wants to maintain a connection with his mother, that's a good quality of his- to care about her,  but I think you wish for the relationship bond to be between you and him.