It all happened last week

[ConfusedCanuck]

So...i am 52, married for 27 years.  It has had ups and downs, and i have learnt how to not upset my wife.   Our sex life has been amazing, to non existent and now to no intimacy for some time.

For the last 2.5 years my wife has been extremely depressed and had to quit her job.  I took care of her, and we tried every treatment etc to try and get her better.

She was, i would say promiscous before marriage, and honestly that is how we met (she was my first and only).  I was ok with her history, which also included being raped two times, and knew that was hard on her.

She saw a new therapist 1.5 months ago..and suddently was 'cured' of her depression.  It was crazy how different she was.  So i tried really hard to be in love again..but she would not respond to me touching her or anything.  At least she was active and happy.  We talked about how the therapist was different, but she had no idea.

That high lasted for 4 weeks, then she went deep into depression.  I took her to emergency and we met a new dr/therapist.  In that meeting, while i was holding her hand, she admitted to multiple affairs.  I wash totally shocked.  It seemed like her depression was caused by hiding the affairs and fear of getting caught.  The reason why she had been doing so well for four weeks was because she told that therapist about the rapes and affairs, which she had never done before.

We sorta separated after that, well, she was taken into a phyc ward again cause she was suicedal.  I did not tell her it was over, but my plans were to end our marriage.  Kids are out of the house, and i have not been happy for some time.  This is just the icing on the cake.

So we have been apart one week but still talking on phone each night. She really needs me it seems, and i want her to be safe.

This morning, she was diagnosed with BPD.  And so much of her behaviors make sense now. 

She once had me and one of her men and her go out for dinner together?  Like..wtf.  And there are other risky things like that she did.

Now i am so confused on what is next.  Leaving made so much sense befor this diagnoses.  I am here to read and learn more from others and maybe that will help me.  I will also get counselling myself next week.

Thanks for listening to me ramble.
 

[kells76]

Hi ConfusedCanuck, welcome to the site. You've joined a group that gets it about the confusion, rollercoaster ride, "hot and cold" behaviors, risky choices... all of it.

Sounds like you'd already been pretty sure the marriage needed to end, though now that she has an official diagnosis of BPD, you're questioning? Is that close?

Just for a little more context, were you there in the meeting where the doctor gave the diagnosis? I.e. did you hear about it straight from a practitioner? Getting a feel for how official this is and how involved you've been so far in the medical/logistical process.

What would you say is the top thing, or top few things, about her now getting a diagnosis, that make you unsure about ending the marriage?

  I am here to read and learn more from others and maybe that will help me.  I will also get counselling myself next week.

You're doing a helpful thing to educate yourself and talk to others in similar positions, before making big decisions, especially because you're in this place of having a lot of new questions come up. Getting counseling for you is also really smart. There's a lot to process, for sure.

Anyway, welcome, pull up a chair, and check out some of our links for starters:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

https://bpdfamily.com/content/why-we-struggle-in-relationships

(you can find more under the Tips and/or Tools tabs up top)

Let us know how you're doing again, whenever works for you;

kells76

[ForeverDad]

My ex also pulled away from intimacy in the final years of our marriage.  We had been married for a decade and I had thought having a child would make her have a more positive perspective on life.  Clueless me.  I now know that having children does not fix serious marriage or mental health issues, but having children does make divorce vastly more difficult.

In my case, as I look back, she afterward saw me as a father, not a husband.  Sadly, the abuser in her childhood was her stepfather, supported by her mother, so of course that impacted how she perceived me, a new father.  To this day, with my son now grown, she still avoids any touch, not even a hug.

Your wife has been living this life and perception for decades.  No one can predict whether she will seek therapy, or even whether she will improve.  It is largely up to her.  You can't fix her, only she can decide to fix herself, and to what extent.  Many find it too hard to take the steps to change.  Maybe you can support her, whether short term or long term.  But that is a decision for you to decide.  Whether you continue the marriage — or not — is your decision.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks for the response.

Sounds like you'd already been pretty sure the marriage needed to end, though now that she has an official diagnosis of BPD, you're questioning? Is that close?

Just for a little more context, were you there in the meeting where the doctor gave the diagnosis? I.e. did you hear about it straight from a practitioner? Getting a feel for how official this is and how involved you've been so far in the medical/logistical process.

What would you say is the top thing, or top few things, about her now getting a diagnosis, that make you unsure about ending the marriage?

kells76

She is in a psych ward right now.  The diagnoses came from a new DR there, and he is the one that told me.  It sure seems to fit her behaviours.

I have not been as involved in her treatments as i should have been.  Am more so now.

I was already thinking we needed to change, to split up.  Then the affairs came out.  This was very recent news, but she is in a pysch ward, so i am helping her along with family.  I have not talked to her about what i will do next, as i know it will make it very hard for her to hear.  Then, i find out she has BPD, and that might be why she was doing so many of these things.  Now, i am unclear, was it all not her fault?   Once she is out and doing a bit better, do i forgive her take her back and try to make things better?  Or do i leave like i had been thinking.   

[ForeverDad]

What if she were to be diagnosed as an alcoholic?  Does that mean it's not her fault, that you have to stick by a spouse regardless the behaviors?  What if she spends her weekends bungee jumping off bridges and paragliding off mountaintops and you can't bear the stress and worry?  What if, well, anything?  The point is, you weigh the factors and decide for yourself whether to go forward or call it quits.

In the USA, most states have, to some extent, no fault divorce.  That means a marriage can be ended for any reason, or even no reason.  You decide what you consider is best for you.

Of course, it's not that simple.  But you do get to decide what you can handle.  For example, historically infidelity has been a basis for divorce.  Hers was repeated, not just a one-time incident.  It's can't be excused away, unless you want to.

[Go3737]

Beware the Trauma Bond. It hurts and makes you want to go back.

[Manic Miner]

I generally agree with guys above, but also want to point out a bit empathetic way of thinking.

If she really had a depression because of known reasons, there's a slight chance that she might go in a good direction with therapy. Especially now when she got the diagnosis. Now, it's up to her, how will she respond to this. Will she seek therapy herself, and do everything doctor says, without anyone pushing her or not.

Also consider that your bad news could make her actually commit suicide, since everything points that way.
We are individuals, but also human and we should be empathetic to loved ones. I'm not saying endure the pain, let it be, no matter the cost. No. But take some time at least to see where she will go and do next. Or to put bluntly, to see if she's beyond hope or can be worked with, step by step.

[livednlearned]

i find out she has BPD, and that might be why she was doing so many of these things.  Now, i am unclear, was it all not her fault?

 

It's more about learning to live well.

It will be different for different people -- you might be able to live well knowing that her affairs are a way to alleviate suffering. Some people would be unable to be in a relationship where affairs occur. 

She may learn why she has affairs, and she may believe she won't do it again, but relapse is a possibility and if you both believe "it's not her fault," then it probably won't be and the pattern will likely continue, albeit with more awareness around why it happens.

This journey is about you as much as it is about her. Your values will matter even more than what she is doing because your boundaries will likely be the grounding for the relationship since she isn't likely to experience boundaries innately.

Once she is out and doing a bit better, do i forgive her take her back and try to make things better?  Or do i leave like i had been thinking.   

Be kind to yourself. This is big news to receive and you may need time to learn and figure out what matters to you.

It will be a protracted time of uncertainty, most likely, because only you can know what the right decision is.

Meanwhile, is she accepting her diagnosis?

[Turkish]

This journey is about you as much as it is about her. Your values will matter even more than what she is doing because your boundaries will likely be the grounding for the relationship since she isn't likely to experience boundaries innately.

This is wise, in addition to being kind to yourself.

Being in the psych ward may address extreme issues of self-harm and other issues, but it's not a cure-all. I saw this over 25 years ago with a likely BPD friend who was 5150'd here in California. She returned to functional status in life, the acute issues that landed here there for over a week being addressed, but was still the same person.

It's right to support her, but you also need to take care of and protect yourself.

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks for the response.

She is in a psych ward right now.  The diagnoses came from a new DR there, and he is the one that told me.  It sure seems to fit her behaviours.

I have not been as involved in her treatments as i should have been.  Am more so now.

I was already thinking we needed to change, to split up.  Then the affairs came out.  This was very recent news, but she is in a pysch ward, so i am helping her along with family.  I have not talked to her about what i will do next, as i know it will make it very hard for her to hear.  Then, i find out she has BPD, and that might be why she was doing so many of these things.  Now, i am unclear, was it all not her fault?   Once she is out and doing a bit better, do i forgive her take her back and try to make things better?  Or do i leave like i had been thinking.   

BPD is not something you can fix or even help her through.

It sounds like you enjoy being a caretaker and supportive partner, or a "rescuer" even, and you may very well decide that's how you want to spend the rest of your relationship/life with her.  But you should at least understand what you're getting into and dealing with, so you don't end up even older and more bitter if/when you feel you've sacrificed even more of yourself for her and she has not reciprocated. 

I would also stop basing your decisions on her feelings, her depression, whether it's improved or not.  She is disordered.  You and her aren't on the same wavelength here and are never going to be.  So, for example, don't decide to keep doing XYZ because she was happier then, or stop doing something because she became more depressed.  You have no idea what's going on in her mind, and it sounds like - on top of her BPD - she has hidden A LOT from you.

The part about arranging for you to have dinner with a guy she was having an affair with... that's just bizarre.  I can't tell if that was maliciousness on her part, or done hoping you'd find out the truth because she didn't have the guts to tell you and was being stressed by guilt. 

[PeteWitsend]

.  But you should at least understand what you're getting into and dealing with, so you don't end up even older and more bitter if/when you feel you've sacrificed even more of yourself for her and she has not reciprocated. 
...

Check out the links on this site to books about BPD.

I'd suggest you read "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life"... sounds like that one might be more applicable to your situation.

"Stop Walking on Eggshells" is another well-read book here, but has a broader focus that the caretaker role.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks everyone.  I have been reading (listening to) I hate you don't leave me.  Recommended by one of her therapists.

She is living with her parents for a bit.  While we figure this out.  I also saw a therapist for the first time yesterday.

She is doing a lot better mentally.  Depression seems gone.  She is trying everything to get back together.  Even being a bit over sexual.  I am not responding to that.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Something interesting has come up, she never told anyone about what she was up to..but now is confiding with her best friend.

Her best friend is telling me things (i know that is bad) and her stories do not add up at all.

The biggest thing, is one of the guys she was seeing over 6 months, she told me it was just sex.  But told her friend that she and him were ready to leave their spouses for each other but he backed out.  Looking back, i can see financial things she was doing to prepare for that.  They seemed small at the time but now it all adds up.

To me, that does not seem like the behavior that someone with BPD would exhibit, or am i wrong?  It just seems like someone unhappy who is trying to leave.

[ConfusedCanuck]

Anyone care to comment on this?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi CC-

To answer your question, yes.  PwBPD (people with BPD) do leave long term relationships/marriages for new and rather untested relationships.  There may be a tendency to do this especially if they sense that their current spouse/SO is feeling dissatisfied in the relationship, or beginning to question things.  “Abandon” you before you “abandon” her sort of thing.  The new people also most likely haven’t experienced the bad behaviors yet..or they’ve been told how “abusive” you are.

I’m very sorry you’re going through this terrible time.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[ConfusedCanuck]

Thanks GemsforEyes.

Hmm..Ok.  that makes sense too then.

I was sortof the mindset that the promiscuity would be more like a one night stand, not an on going relationship where she wants to leave ours.  But i am glad you clarified that for me.

Makes my choices even harder.

And to make it worse i let her move back in, since she was having trouble sleeping away from our home.  We have separate bedrooms anyway. 

But (this is bad) she is suddenly a nympho, and i have given in to that.  We have sex multiple times a day..and she is masturbating on top of that.  So crazy.

She begins treatment for BPD next week. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Wow, CC.

If it were just sex multiple times per day with you, that would be one thing, maybe an effort by her to establish reconnection of a sort and validation (a real NEED of pwBPD).  But the masterbation on top of that leaves me scratching my head?  Have you broached the topic with her?

I don’t know... I don’t.

If you’re in active contact with her therapist or psychiatrist perhaps tell him/her?  But I would NOT tell her friend.

I know this is a very difficult topic, but How does all of this feel emotionally for you?

Warmly,
Gems

[ConfusedCanuck]

This whole thing has been so crazy.   She seems to act different depending on who she is talking too as well.  Maybe there is more going on that just BPD.

I sorta asked what was going on, and she just says she got her sex drive back.  I think its partially because of being taken off some meds.  But this is excessive and never was the normal for us.

Emotionally, for one..i am pretty much not that emotional.  Pretty even keeled.  I suspect that is why we have been together 27 years and i would not get overly upset when she said mean things.  Still trying to figure out where to go from here.  She needs more help and to get "better".  To top it off, our last kids moved out of the house last week for uni.  Which is also emotionally hard on her.

What a mess.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey-

Yea, it’s hard to digest.  What I meant by asking how it feels emotionally for you, is when you’re engaging in intimacy?

Are you engaged WITH her, or are you a bit “not” there to sort of protect yourself, which would obviously be understandable until you figure out how you truly feel about all of this.

Please note, I’ve been in 2 disordered relationships- a 19-year marriage and a 6.5-year relationship.  I’ve had to “disappear” during intimacy at times to protect myself.  I’m actually not sure if this is normal.  I’ve never asked anyone.  Oops.

Gems

[ForeverDad]

To top it off, our last kids moved out of the house last week for uni.

That in itself may be a big trigger for her, or the little straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak?

A wide range of things can trigger changes in a person with such issues.  For example, getting ready to move, moving, getting ready for vacation, going on vacation, traveling on vacation, upcoming anniversary or birthday, and so on.

A caution here, just because she's currently behaving "better" does not signal she has found a lasting solution

[ConfusedCanuck]

Hmm.  How it feels for me.  Its different than before.   I know she really wants it, maybe she thinks its the way to win me back.  Not sure.  I am not as emotionally in it, and its more sex than making love.  And feel bad for not saying no.  I am trying to make it clear that our future is not clear.  Want her to get things a bit more under control before we really tackle that.   

Sorry to hear you have been through this sort of thing too.

Hey-

Yea, it’s hard to digest.  What I meant by asking how it feels emotionally for you, is when you’re engaging in intimacy?

Are you engaged WITH her, or are you a bit “not” there to sort of protect yourself, which would obviously be understandable until you figure out how you truly feel about all of this.

Please note, I’ve been in 2 disordered relationships- a 19-year marriage and a 6.5-year relationship.  I’ve had to “disappear” during intimacy at times to protect myself.  I’m actually not sure if this is normal.  I’ve never asked anyone.  Oops.

Gems

[ConfusedCanuck]

Hmm...i know the empty nest thing has been on her mind.  But the affairs were a ways back (the ones i know of...which might be all of them).

Her behavior is just strange, the last week she seems to be spending a lot of money on un-necessary things.  And then saying she is worried about our money.   FWIW there is 0 reason to worry about our money.  We are well off.

That in itself may be a big trigger for her, or the little straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak?

A wide range of things can trigger changes in a person with such issues.  For example, getting ready to move, moving, getting ready for vacation, going on vacation, traveling on vacation, upcoming anniversary or birthday, and so on.

A caution here, just because she's currently behaving "better" does not signal she has found a lasting solution

[Gemsforeyes]

From what I understand and have experienced,  but I’m no expert, disordered people may engage in reckless behavior (over spending, substance abuse, inappropriate sex, etc)  to mask underlying feelings that they themselves cannot specifically explain.

As far as her concerns about money, have you asked her the reasons for her concerns?

As you approach this topic, rather than “assuring” her there is no problem with money (I’ve read on the boards that assurances are invalidating) - perhaps engage in a VERY open-ended discussion:

Something like - Explain you’d like to understand where these concerns come from, and you’d like to understand more about what she’s thinking around money issues?  Try to keep it soft, non-confrontational, and tell her you’ll think about what she’s said.  Maybe try NOT to respond in the moment.  Just listen.  You may hear a lot.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gems

[ConfusedCanuck]

Sure, i can try that.  My normal approach would have been different haha.  Thanks!

From what I understand and have experienced,  but I’m no expert, disordered people may engage in reckless behavior (over spending, substance abuse, inappropriate sex, etc)  to mask underlying feelings that they themselves cannot specifically explain.

As far as her concerns about money, have you asked her the reasons for her concerns?

As you approach this topic, rather than “assuring” her there is no problem with money (I’ve read on the boards that assurances are invalidating) - perhaps engage in a VERY open-ended discussion:

Something like - Explain you’d like to understand where these concerns come from, and you’d like to understand more about what she’s thinking around money issues?  Try to keep it soft, non-confrontational, and tell her you’ll think about what she’s said.  Maybe try NOT to respond in the moment.  Just listen.  You may hear a lot.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gems

[Notwendy]

Children leaving home is a transition point. Where a spouse might stay in the marriage because of the kids, at this point, they may feel they have a choice now, to stay or leave. One way to return to that safety net ( child at home ) is to have one. With her being so sexual, I hope you are considering that possibility. The other is that sex produces "feel good" chemicals in the brain and someone can use sex for that, just like others may use a different addiction (drugs, gambling etc)

Having BPD does not excuse her behaviors. It may be the reason for them but pwBPD are not unaware of what they do. They may somehow justify it emotionally. It seems like you are now concerned about the idea of leaving a person who has a mental illness rather than a person who didn't have one and was cheating on you. That is an understandable concern.

I think it comes down to your own boundaries and values. I don't think you expected a marriage with infidelity. Now that you see your wife has been cheating multiple times, and you can't really change that, you still get to choose- can you continue to be in a marriage with infidelity or not. That's a personal choice. If infidelity isn't acceptable to you, her having BPD is not going to make it acceptable. Do you want this for the long term?

I think if a person we care about has an illness, we would help but also that person has to also help themselves too. It's their illness. Forever Dad mentioned alcoholism. There's a difference between staying with an alcoholic who is in treatment and is making efforts to stay sober than one who denies they have a problem and continues to drink while their family remains unhappy. One is that the person owns the issue and works at their recovery. The spouse is supportive but does not enable. The other is that the person doesn't take responsibility for their actions.

I wonder about her diagnosis. Being excessively sexual and excessive spending are typical of bipolar. The sudden change between depressed and happy are also typical of that. During the manic stage, people can't sleep at night, are overly sexual, spend lots of money. Then they can get very depressed. None of us are professionals on this board, but if the professionals only saw her during the depression, they may not have seen this behavior in her. People in their "manic" stage don't usually seek out help because they feel good during these times. I think it's would help to have her evaluated again. BPD and Bipolar are different and there are specific medicines for bipolar.

Usually if someone is in psychiatric care, they are sent home with a plan to keep seeing the doctor for treatment. I assume she has one and so needs to go back. She may not be honest with them about what is going on. Ask if you can attend with her and you tell the doctor. Make sure she signs consents for you to do this. My BPD mother has not told her doctors all of her issues and sometimes has refused to cooperate with the treatment plan. That makes it hard to help her. I hope your wife will cooperate with hers.

[ForeverDad]

There is a difference between Bi-polar and BPD.  Bi-polar indicates a chemical imbalance and can be treated with meds.  While BPD too can be treated with meds, they only moderate the behaviors, long term therapy applied diligently in the person's life and perceptions is needed.

[Notwendy]

Yes big difference. What got my attention was deep depression, then a sudden clearing of it with a high, then a crash into depression again. She's not sleeping, wants sex all the time and is spending lots of money. This is a common pattern with Bipolar disorder. Now, none of us here can diagnose but we've all read these things to try to figure out what is going on with the person with BPD. They can look similar but BPD doesn't do this kind of cycling as far as I know, with staying up all night, wanting sex all the time and spending money ( the manic stage) then crashing into depression again from what I have seen or read.

PwBPD can act out sexually, have substance abuse, do reckless things but this dramatic up/down- makes me wonder. As FD said, this is also important for prognosis. Medication can help Bipolar itself. There is no medication that actually treats BPD- it can treat the associated moods but not the BPD itself.

I think it helps to also know if this is Bipolar or BPD because the right treatment matters. Mental health can only diagnose what they see. They only know what she tells them. This can be a problem. My BPD mother is not honest with her mental health providers. They have been unable to help her because of this. And because she didn't allow us to speak to them, we can't help either.

[ConfusedCanuck]

A lot to take in here, and thanks for that everyone.  At one point they thought she was bi-polar, but that was before she told anyone (therapist, me, friends..no one) about the affairs.

"Children leaving home is a transition point. Where a spouse might stay in the marriage because of the kids, at this point, they may feel they have a choice now, to stay or leave."  There have been a few times where she told me she would leave me when the kids left.  So that sorta jives with this time in our marriage.

Also, worth noting she has her tubes tied...cannot get preg.

She will be seeing her therapist again next week.  I can meet with him after for 15 minutes, but its just on a day i cannot make work..grrr.  I feel like it would be good for me to tell him what i see, what she is doing at home..from my honest point of view.  I think she is very manipulitive yet with her friends..and me,  and probably the therapist too.

[Notwendy]

Well maybe another day there will be a chance to speak to the T

To be helped, people need to want the help and cooperate with the providers. Although my BPD mother wasn't happy at times- as far as she is concerned, it's not about her but it's someone or something else at fault. She doesn't believe there's anything wrong with her. It's all everyone else.

She's had mental health off and on,  but she's also very manipulative- with everyone. She spins the story. We don't know what she tells them but her sessions are about how she copes with the other people she blames the situation on.

Sadly, she's been resistant to mental health intervention. Even a trained professional can not change how someone thinks. She doesn't believe she has anything to do with the issues that upset her. If anyone mentions it- she dissociates, or dismisses them. She just can't go there emotionally.

I think mental health is worth the try, on the chance that it might help the situation. It's what we'd want for anyone who we care about. But the best we can do is make this possible- they have to want the help and work with them. See how this goes and then reassess.

[Go3737]

She has multiple affairs. Her tubes are ties. She cant get pregnant. She probably didnt use protection.
Get yourself tested for STDs.