How to tell mother with uBPD that she can't stay with me

[zanyapple]

Hi everyone, my 70 year old mother with uBPD lives overseas. I live in the US. She and my dad are planning to visit within the year or early next year. I would love for my dad to visit, but they're kind of a package deal, so my mother has to tag along.

Her visits last 2016 and 2017 were the worst (we lived in an apartment). She would randomly cry uncontrollably and create drama in our house for trivial reasons. For example, I was once eating and she accused me of intentionally not inviting her and this made her feel bad. For what it's worth, this was 24-48 hours before I was about to go into labor (my first), so I had a lot of things going on in my mind. I've never given birth before, so I was really scared and I was already having contractions. These arguments eventually blew up into a big ones.

When they visited in 2018, I rented a Aribnb for them. I feel really bad for my dad. I would love to welcome him to our house and have him stay for as long as he wants, but because of my toxic mother, these visits have had to be short. This was probably the most peaceful vacation I've had with her - no fights, no drama, no toxicity - because she didn't live with me, and I think because she knew I didn't want her living with me, she was more careful. It just had to be a shorter than normal visit though because the Airbnb was expensive and I had to pay for it (and their flights too).

They are planning on visiting again this year or next and my mother assumed that because we now have purchased our own home that they are staying with us. Again, I would love for my dad to, but not her. She will not only traumatize me, but my child as well. She's also said unpleasant things about my husband trying to taint our marriage.

What is the best way to communicate to her that they will have to stay at a hotel/Airbnb again this time, that even if we have space in our new home, that she cannot stay with me. I can't imagine her staying in the next room for 1-2 months; it will drive me crazy.

Even if they aren't coming until the end of this year or next, I think it's better to communicate this now just to set expectations early. Or do you not think that's a good idea?

Thank you so much for your advice.

[Notwendy]

You know you can't have your father stay with you and your mother stay somewhere else.

I had a similar situation. BPD mother and father were a package deal. However, they didn't want to stay with me. They did once, and it was disruptive. Dad likes his quiet and the kids made noise so he got irritated. BPD mother was her usual self. Eventually they got in an argument, packed up and went to a hotel. I was upset as I thought it was something about me or my house, but it was just them. They are more comfortable having their own space and their own dynamics.

I also don't stay with my mother when I visit. I did when my father became ill towards the end of his life and BPD mother would be up all hours of the night. I could not meet my own basic needs in their house ( get enough sleep ). It's better if I don't stay there. I prefer to have my own space in a hotel.

I think you just have to say it. Your parents might react but it's better to have a more peaceful arrangement. It may be that you have to find the place and pay for it, but if you are able to do that, it's an investment in making the visit better for all.

[Nopuppets]

I agree with Notwendy.  You will have to invite both of them to stay with you or put both of them in a rental.  For the sake of your sanity, marriage, and to protect your family have them stay at a rental.  I typically deliver this type of message by email to avoid listening to my mother raging.  You could point out how well it worked at the last visit when they stayed close by and everyone had their own space.  I would just keep it light, but firm and brief.  As to the timing of delivery, I suppose the sooner you deliver the message the better.  It sounds like your father can possibly make her see that solution is workable. 

I feel for you!  I would lose my mind if my mother were coming to visit for such a long time.  Keep us posted as to what you decide.  And remain firm with her.  You mentioned she basically bad mouthed your husband.  My mother has done that as well.  It was when my children were very young and she would even encourage me to leave him.  My husband is a good man and father.  I think I made the mistake of airing out a frustration about him about something trivial to my mother.  I learned to never tell her anything.  Be the grey rock

[GaGrl]

Email is a good way to deliver the message, and choose wording that doesn't leave it up for discussion.

"I will be making Airbnb reservations for you, nearby, as it worked well for you to to have your own space on the last visit."

[zachira]

Whatever you tell your parents, make it about being beneficial for them. I like the example GaGrl provided. I too wished I could have more alone time with my father and see less of my BPD mother. My niece is in a similar position with her father. She has tried to take vacations alone with her father without her NPD mother coming along, and NPD mother always demands to come along.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I agree with Gagrl and Zachira. To decrease the risks of an outbursts, making it about them is more likely to work, and it should also be firm enough that there is no room for her to truly decide.

Do you even have a guest room? Maybe you are doing renovations... Or something else is going on that will make your house deeply uncomfortable for them. Plus, it worked so well last time with the airBnD that you went ahead and book for then, to ensure they have a wonderful time.

Courage 

[Couscous]

I can't imagine her staying in the next room for 1-2 months; it will drive me crazy.

Is it normal in your culture for parents to visit their adult children for such long stretches of time?

Even if they aren't coming until the end of this year or next I think it's better to communicate this now just to set expectations early.

I know that it’s tempting to get this over with as soon as possible so you can stop worrying about it, but in my experience BPD’s do not take take no for an answer, so you may just find that this will inadvertently invite a whole lot of avoidable drama into your life as you will be opening yourself having to justify, argue, defend and explain your decision every time you talk to them for the next few months.

[zanyapple]

Is it normal in your culture for parents to visit their adult children for such long stretches of time?

I know that it’s tempting to get this over with as soon as possible so you can stop worrying about it, but in my experience BPD’s do not take take no for an answer, so you may just find that this will inadvertently invite a whole lot of avoidable drama into your life as you will be opening yourself having to justify, argue, defend and explain your decision every time you talk to them for the next few months.

In my culture, yes, it's normal. Most parents even max out their tourist visa allotted time of 6 months. I think it's also not just a cultural thing, but the plane ticket (and distance) are also expensive, so it's somewhat acceptable to stay for longer periods of time to maximize your vacation.

[zanyapple]

I wanted to post an update today because this happened.

My dad called me the other day to say hi. Then we briefly talked about their plan on visiting soon. I mentioned to him that it's better for them to stay at an Airbnb "because he knows how mom is." I planned on saying that "they need their space", but because I was talking to my dad, I thought this was ok.

Today, my mother called because they had a fight over a very trivial matter. Apparently, my dad leaves his masks in random places in the house including the dinner table and my mother finds this disgusting. She told me she's tired from cleaning up after him.

The fight escalated and my dad told her, "you know, your daughter doesn't even like you."

So my mother called me to ask exactly "what exactly I told him" because apparently, my dad told her that "her own daughter doesn't even like her in a very confident manner." I told her it's better for them to stay at an Airbnb because just like the last time they were here, it was a more peaceful vacation.

Then she goes on to tell me that I have always sided with my dad. I really hate it when she says this because this has been the exact same line she's been using ever since I could remember. I am 40 now and it's the same s***, just a different day.

Then she says, "I don't really want to curse anyone, but when will he die?" which is a terrible thing to say over an argument that stemmed from nothing but a face mask. I shared this to my husband and it felt embarrassing. It's embarrassing that my mother wishes death on my own father because of a face mask. Granted that she has a lot of resentment over the years, but still... it isn't justified. Every time she's upset at him, old issues in the past always get uncovered. She then went on to say, "No wonder his ex-wife left him."

She ended the conversation telling me to "tell my dad not to leave his masks anywhere." I refused to say yes because if it's not the face mask, I know it's something else, and I'm sick and tired of playing referee all my life. The other week, she told me "to tell my dad to make sure to always flush the toilet because he always leaves the bathroom filthy." She says my dad always believes what I say so she wants me to be the messenger. She told me that "even though I don't like her, it's at least my duty as a daughter to acquiesce this very small request from her mother."

My husband think that my dad kinda threw me under the bus, but sometimes, I do wish that she knows how unpleasant she is. It is true. I really don't like her because she is an extremely unpleasant person. She has no friends and her own siblings don't like her.

[zanyapple]

 I feel for you!  I would lose my mind if my mother were coming to visit for such a long time.  Keep us posted as to what you decide.  And remain firm with her.  You mentioned she basically bad mouthed your husband.  My mother has done that as well.  It was when my children were very young and she would even encourage me to leave him.  My husband is a good man and father.  I think I made the mistake of airing out a frustration about him about something trivial to my mother.  I learned to never tell her anything.  Be the grey rock

This is exactly what happened. My husband bought a new truck and she told me he's "extravagant" when he should be saving money. Apparently, she remembered some local celebrity that recently got divorced because the husband liked luxurious things. And another example she gave was Nicolas Cage who once was a millionaire and is now bankrupt because of his luxurious lifestyle. While my husband isn't perfect, he is a good husband and father.

Why does she do this? What exactly is her desired outcome? So let's say I believed her and left my husband... and then what? That her and I get to be buddy-buddy?

[Notwendy]

My husband think that my dad threw me under the bus,.

He did and this was a common pattern in my family.

It's also discussed on the Daddy's girl thread on this board, and while I don't think it entirely fits my relationship with my father, it does fit in some ways.

Karpman triangle dynamics can also help you understand this pattern.

Dad appears to be the good guy to you and in many ways, he is the most reasonable parent and is the good guy. But his main role is as your mother's rescuer- to be the good guy to her and for her to be in victim mode.

I knew not to confide in my BPD mother but learned later that anything I said to Dad about her would be shared with her. Actually, anything I said to Dad would be shared with her. But if I said or did something that would make her mad at me- it could possibly divert her attention to me and he could step into rescuer position.

It's your father's co dependency that meets the needs of your BPD mother, and vice versa. In my situation, I saw that my father would throw me under the bus to meet this need, even if he also genuinely cared about me. The addiction model fits this in a way. Someone who is an alcoholic also may genuinely love their family and also be unable to resist drinking. Still this doesn't mean they aren't responsible for that choice- they are responsible for their actions but it takes some work and help for them to make changes if they choose to. The issue with co-dependency is that involves an over-function of traits we consider to be good ones- being helpful and caring aren't looked at as a negative- so he may not even see his actions as a problem.

Let's look at the Karpman triangle dynamics with the mask issue. From what I have seen in my own situation- BPD mother prefers victim position and my father preferred rescuer. For both of them to be in their preferred positions, they need a persecutor.

BPD mother comes to your father with a complaint about the masks ( she's in victim position). This complaint puts your father in persecutor position - he's the bad guy leaving his masks around. Persecutor position feels uncomfortable to him ( it does to anyone- nobody likes to be wrong, but someone who can manage their own uncomfortable feelings would have said " I am sorry, I will be more mindful of picking up my masks and putting them away" and that would probably be the end of it.)

Here's where Dad's co-dependency kicks in and he may not be fully aware of this. BPD mother is in victim mode, Dad wants to be rescuer, not the bad guy here. He may even feel shamed at being told to put his masks away and in the moment, is feeling his own emotional discomfort. He "rescues" himself ( you can do these roles with oneself) by throwing the "your D doesn't want you to stay with her" out there- putting you in persecutor position.

For your father, this could be something he struggles with since his own childhood if he was shamed or punished for making a mistake. This may have been a pattern in his own childhood. It's not that he's choosing to throw you under the bus. He probably doesn't want to do that, but he, himself, is in an emotional situation at the moment.

At this point BPD mother directs her upset at you...

What would also play out in my family- is that then, BPD mother comes back to Dad complaining about me. Dad takes rescuer role to soothe her and the two of them are aligned. This is a stable arrangement- the victim and rescuer are both angry at someone who is a persecutor.

[Couscous]

Today, my mother called because they had a fight over a very trivial matter.

Then she goes on to tell me that I have always sided with my dad.

The fight escalated and my dad told her, "you know, your daughter doesn't even like you."

Oh boy, this all sounds so familiar...

Your parents are crossing major boundaries by involving you in their marital disputes.   

What you are dealing with is something called enmeshment (or fusion). BPD families are highly enmeshed families. In addition, it sounds like you are in a one-way "alliance" with your father (you have his back but he doesn't have yours) which is going to greatly influence your relationship with your mother, and his throwing you under the bus is a perfect example of his actively undermining your relationship with your mother.

Seeing a family therapist (without your parents) is an option you could possibly explore. Dr. Ken Adams is a great resource on the topic of enmeshment, and he also has a therapist directory on his website. I am currently in the process of finding a therapist that has taken his training to help me with this exact issue.

[zanyapple]

Here's where Dad's co-dependency kicks in and he may not be fully aware of this. BPD mother is in victim mode, Dad wants to be rescuer, not the bad guy here. He may even feel shamed at being told to put his masks away and in the moment, is feeling his own emotional discomfort. He "rescues" himself ( you can do these roles with oneself) by throwing the "your D doesn't want you to stay with her" out there- putting you in persecutor position.

This all makes sense, thank you for your response.

So, I think the "your D doesn't even like you" statement would not have happened if it hadn't escalated. Yes, my dad could have just apologized and put his masks away, but I also think his reaction is a result of two things:

1. My mother's approach (always on attack mode, is never able to calmly just say something)
2. Their history

What I noticed in myself is I always easily get trigged with almost anything and everything she says. So this may be the same case for him also?

[Couscous]

So, I think the "your D doesn't even like you" statement would not have happened if it hadn't escalated.

I could be wrong about this, but it sounds like you’re trying to let your father off the hook by holding your mother responsible for his behavior but people are always responsible for their own behavior.

What I noticed in myself is I always easily get trigged with almost anything and everything she says. So this may be the same case for him also?

Enmeshed families are highly reactive to the everyone else’s emotions because nobody has boundaries.

[Couscous]

It's not that he's choosing to throw you under the bus. He probably doesn't want to do that, but he, himself, is in an emotional situation at the moment.

The way I see this is that (hopefully) his intention is not to hurt zanyapple by throwing her under the bus, but he is most definitely choosing to "persecute" his daughter in order to protect himself by throwing her under the bus. If someone had a put gun to his head and told him that if he throws his daughter under the bus he would get his brains blown out, he would most definitely make a different choice.

[livednlearned]

What I noticed in myself is I always easily get trigged with almost anything and everything she says. So this may be the same case for him also?

This underscores why having them stay elsewhere is a good idea.

My parents are dysfunctional and emotionally reactive, and while my father is narcissistic and my mother is an adult child, they are not (to my knowledge) BPD. Still, we have BPD in the family and other than me, no one has put the effort into learning how to regulate emotions or communicate in healthy ways.

Staying with them is hard on my nervous system. Skilled interactions that I can manage in short visits go out the window when our visits are longer.

The nice thing about being in separate countries with distance between you is that you can learn what it feels like to have a regulated nervous system under normal circumstances. The challenge is that, when family comes to visit, you are no longer operating under normal circumstances. Having them come to stay in your home for an extended period can feel confusing because they challenge your new normal. It can be really demoralizing on top of the usual feelings.

Without direct practice, it's usually not possible to apply new skills to family under extreme conditions like a long stay.

There are many things you can say to your parents about staying elsewhere, it really comes down to how you manage the FOG feelings that come up. There may also be some creative solutions that will come as you problem solve.

For example, maybe you can find a rental unit with a pool and bring the baby over to swim. Or, there is an international pet sitting/house sitting service -- if your parents liked animals they could stay in a home for free while taking care of the animals.

These may not work for you, they're just a couple of ideas and I'm sure there are countless more.