How to recognise bad apples in advance.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

A couple of weeks ago I set out to describe every single problematic relationship I've ever had in my life, be it romantic, platonic or professional, in which people showed signs of BPD or NPD. It ended up being about three dozen people and I realised that they all had shown their true colours in the early stages, doing things which normal, healthy people don't do. I thought I'd share my findings. Please feel free to add your own!

Be wary of people who:

• are quick to criticise you, yet hate/refuse to be corrected themselves; even if it is about minor, seemingly harmless things. This is HUGE. Virtually every single one of my 35 people showed this trait.
• talk about themselves at length, yet seem to get bored within seconds when you start talking. No, this isn't about you being a bad conversationalist – it's about them not caring.
• have sudden mood swings and seem to be able to turn on a dime. Especially when it's a turn towards anger.
• belittle you. Doesn't matter in what way. If they put you down, get your guard up. Don't believe the "come on, it was just a joke" tale. Healthy people indulge in raillery too (especially men), but they generally know the border between a jocular side jab and an insult. Relatedly, be particulary wary if someone
• won't apologise if they said/did something that hurt you. We all make mistakes. Healthy people fix them and will show you that your relationship is more important to them than being "right". Toxic people will at best leave you alone in your pain and at worst resent you for having criticised them.
• make fun of your other friends or people who treat you healthily, mockingly calling them "your fans" and insinuating that you (and they) are better than them. (!) This superficial flattery is designed to keep you isolated and dependent, and it's also supposed to prevent you from realising what a true, reciprocal bond looks like.
• will suddenly treat you with disdain/boredom/jealousy if you do defend your other friends.
• won't accommodate your wants and needs, OR who will say they will sort something out and won't (actions not matching words).
• will want you to be on call, yet be flaky/hard to reach if you need them.
• give you the feeling that they're not really listening to you and making everything about themselves. Trust me, that "icky" feeling you get when you encounter this just doesn't happen with healthy people, ever.
• will ignore you for long periods of time, only to resume contact with ZERO explanation or apology. We all have busy lives. It's okay not to be in constant touch with everyone. But healthy people will generally preface resumed contact either with a polite apology or proffer an explanation of what they've been up to.
• frequently have a strange, emotionless, black-eyed stare as if they are dead inside. Not talking about resting bitch face here, but about the phenomenon where you look at someone and the vibe you get from them is completely catatonic. Not threatening or angry, just dead. You'll know it when you see it. Run.
• only "resolve" arguments when you are in tears and asking them "What do you want from me?" Especially if they suddenly seem happy and appeased.
• won't say thank you for gifts and invitations. Trust me, there's more to it than bad manners.
• won't give you gifts, or if forced in a social setting, will give you something absolutely bizarre. Eg. My BPDex once gave me a used CD he didn't want anymore for my birthday, despite knowing that the music on it wasn't my taste and that I don't own a CD player. This is lack of empathy on full display.
• will never reciprocate questions. Normal people will ask "And how are you?" "And how was your week?" "Oh, and when is your birthday?" etc. Perhaps always, but the vast majority of the time. If someone never reciprocates, something is off.
• won't try to console or comfort you when you're in tears/ill. Even the most socially awkward person will attempt a "there, there" if you're upset. If they just look at you blankly while you're crying and don't even ask what's wrong, you're dealing with someone who has a severe empathy (and probably personality) defect.
• treat you well only if you treat them poorly, and treat you poorly as soon as you start treating them well. Again, not normal person behaviour.
• have an unnaturally high esteem for their own perceived talents and creations, especially when it's obvious that they can't back it up.

That's most of my notes so far. I've underlined the two that were most surprising to me. Do add your own items, I'm curious!

[Sappho11]

A couple of weeks ago I set out to describe every single problematic relationship I've ever had in my life, be it romantic, platonic or professional, in which people showed signs of BPD or NPD. It ended up being about three dozen people and I realised that they all had shown their true colours in the early stages, doing things which normal, healthy people don't do. I thought I'd share my findings. Please feel free to add your own!

Be wary of people who:

• are quick to criticise you, yet hate/refuse to be corrected themselves; even if it is about minor, seemingly harmless things. This is HUGE. Virtually every single one of my 35 people showed this trait.
• talk about themselves at length, yet seem to get bored within seconds when you start talking. No, this isn't about you being a bad conversationalist – it's about them not caring.
• have sudden mood swings and seem to be able to turn on a dime. Especially when it's a turn towards anger.
• belittle you. Doesn't matter in what way. If they put you down, get your guard up. Don't believe the "come on, it was just a joke" tale. Healthy people indulge in raillery too (especially men), but they generally know the border between a jocular side jab and an insult. Relatedly, be particulary wary if someone
• won't apologise if they said/did something that hurt you. We all make mistakes. Healthy people fix them and will show you that your relationship is more important to them than being "right". Toxic people will at best leave you alone in your pain and at worst resent you for having criticised them.
• make fun of your other friends or people who treat you healthily, mockingly calling them "your fans" and insinuating that you (and they) are better than them. (!) This superficial flattery is designed to keep you isolated and dependent, and it's also supposed to prevent you from realising what a true, reciprocal bond looks like.
• will suddenly treat you with disdain/boredom/jealousy if you do defend your other friends.
• won't accommodate your wants and needs, OR who will say they will sort something out and won't (actions not matching words).
• will want you to be on call, yet be flaky/hard to reach if you need them.
• give you the feeling that they're not really listening to you and making everything about themselves. Trust me, that "icky" feeling you get when you encounter this just doesn't happen with healthy people, ever.
• will ignore you for long periods of time, only to resume contact with ZERO explanation or apology. We all have busy lives. It's okay not to be in constant touch with everyone. But healthy people will generally preface resumed contact either with a polite apology or proffer an explanation of what they've been up to.
• frequently have a strange, emotionless, black-eyed stare as if they are dead inside. Not talking about resting bitch face here, but about the phenomenon where you look at someone and the vibe you get from them is completely catatonic. Not threatening or angry, just dead. You'll know it when you see it. Run.
• only "resolve" arguments when you are in tears and asking them "What do you want from me?" Especially if they suddenly seem happy and appeased.
• won't say thank you for gifts and invitations. Trust me, there's more to it than bad manners.
• won't give you gifts, or if forced in a social setting, will give you something absolutely bizarre. Eg. My BPDex once gave me a used CD he didn't want anymore for my birthday, despite knowing that the music on it wasn't my taste and that I don't own a CD player. This is lack of empathy on full display.
• will never reciprocate questions. Normal people will ask "And how are you?" "And how was your week?" "Oh, and when is your birthday?" etc. Perhaps always, but the vast majority of the time. If someone never reciprocates, something is off.
• won't try to console or comfort you when you're in tears/ill. Even the most socially awkward person will attempt a "there, there" if you're upset. If they just look at you blankly while you're crying and don't even ask what's wrong, you're dealing with someone who has a severe empathy (and probably personality) defect.
• treat you well only if you treat them poorly, and treat you poorly as soon as you start treating them well. Again, not normal person behaviour.
• have an unnaturally high esteem for their own perceived talents and creations, especially when it's obvious that they can't back it up.

That's most of my notes so far. I've underlined the two that were most surprising to me. Do add your own items, I'm curious!

[Sappho11]

It just occurred to me, another item would be

• Being threatened by your talents/good qualities. This can mean putting down you or your work, becoming antsy/irate when you share a success, being uncomfortable hearing someone said something nice to you, telling you off for "bragging" when you merely stated something went well; subtly undermining your discipline for things like work, exercise, hobbies; telling you off for exercising/getting dressed up/wearing makeup etc.; or in extreme cases, twisting your virtues into something undesirable (eg. you're tidy and they call you pedantic/controlling, you set a normal boundary and they call you uptight/headstrong/bossy etc.)

[judee]

Sappho,


I tried this list as a sjabloon over past relationships,
Two out of five of my relationships matched most ( 95 percent) of your list.
Three out of five matched none, or only one or two, at times.
The two relationships that matched all were a diagnosed narcissist and my last ( diagnosed) BPD ex.
So good one!

[Sappho11]

Thank you judee! In the past I've had trouble untangling dysfunctional from healthy behaviours, and it's still a learning process – so it's heartening to hear that these features congruent with someone else's experience (though of course I wish you hadn't been forced to have it).

Another strange item just occurred to me:

• The Wolfish Grin. There's a kind of manic, wolfish grin which I've only ever seen on dysfunctional people, and it occurs in a sudden state of high arousal (strikingly uncharacteristic but just as pronounced in generally passive, introverted characters), e.g. when they've talked themselves into a frenzy over something that will positively affect them (often something quite mundane, like vacation time, food they want to eat etc.). This is markedly different from "healthy person joy", which always seems to have an element of humility or innocent, childlike wonder. When normal people talk about something they are passionate about, they seem pleasant, engaging, approachable and harmless; when dysfunctional people do the same, often with manic exaggeration, there is something wild, off-kilter and predatory about them. Difficult to describe, but you'll know it when you see it.

[Gemsforeyes]

Oh Sappho... you really nailed this one. 

After I finally exited my 6.5-year disordered relationship (which followed a 19-year marriage), I forced myself to look at some hard hard truths about certain long-term “friendships”.  I realized how incredibly lopsided these relationships had been for years, and how I’d basically served these people.  Makes me sick.

I have a few things to add, or adjust to your list... and I’m sure there are many other things that will jump out at me later.

Asking questions:  if there is ANY space at all for twisting an innocent question into you attempting to “catch” your SO or friend in a mistake, watch out!  My exBPD/NPDbf went mad when I asked him if he gave my dog her meds.

Telling you that you are the ONLY person they trust.  And then putting you in a very vulnerable position of ABSOLUTE TRUST... That given certain sets of circumstances can and WILL completely backfire on you leaving you holding the bag, full responsibility and ALL of the blame.  And you expressed discomfort with this position at the start.

Gifts - my experience has been that I was basically TOLD the gifts I would give.  I’m not kidding.  That’s how brow beaten I was...

My brain, talents, words, original ideas and phrases and past history somehow magically morph into HIS original creations and life which he proudly shares with the world, in my presence.

They twist timelines like crazy, so that you can be at fault whether or not you were actually present, or even knew them during a particularly bad time in their lives.  The truth is completely irrelevant.

I guess that’s enough for right now.

Warmly,
Gems

[Skip]

Not to interrupt the list building...

There are a few websites that have put together a 100 item list. I've always questioned the utility. If we keep going, we will have list of bad behaviors.

I might suggest that we already know that belittling, lying, kicking the dog, and boiling our rabbit are bad.

It seems to me that what we need to know 1) when to walk away and 2) how to have the strength to do so.

Some bad behavior is inevitable in any relationship. The real question is context - when is it terminal?

Once we realized it was terminal - why were we too fearful to walk away?

Anyone have any thoughts on this (as we continue to build the list)?

[Sappho11]

Thank you Gem, for your additions! Very relatable, especially the one where asking a simple question gets turned into an accusation of accusation.

Skip, the point of this list isn't to just point out obvious bad behaviours, of course there's a million lists of that nature. And everyone behaves poorly to their fellow man every now and again. The point of this list is pointing out less-obvious dysfunctional behaviours that simply aren't part of a healthy person's behavioural repertoire, ever, however benign and innocuous they may seem in the moment.

[Manic Miner]

Some bad behavior is inevitable in any relationship. The real question is context - when is it terminal?

Once we realized it was terminal - why were we too fearful to walk away?

Anyone have any thoughts on this (as we continue to build the list)?

I can only explain for myself. Why I'm fearful to just walk away from my marriage that obviously has so many toxic elements and involves high-functioning uBPD?

It all sounds good (or bad) on paper or on the screen, 1+1= 2. But in life 1+1 can be 5, 4 or 0.

My emotions are still there for her. She's very attractive, body conscious, we share a lot of common interests and when times are good, they are really good (though rare nowadays, since we currently separated). Also I am aware that she's been through a lot. She's very creative, multi-talented with great imagination. She works hard. Unnecessary so, like her mother, lacks self-esteem and wants to prove others that she can do it or do it better - that trait alone spoiled so many of our hours together, but yeah. Generally, it's better for her to work than not.

We have a daughter with special needs too, that's a bit complicated as well. She's a good mother and we share parenting ways. We have been together for 23 years and known each other since high school.

Then, there's nostalgia. We experienced many beautiful, once in a lifetime moments together. Even though you cannot live through memories, they make no practical purpose in the present, they made us who we are today. There's a hope that some of it could be experienced in the future again.
  
So with all set and done, there are so many things here that keep me going back. I'm fully aware (and learning) of all bad, toxic and manipulative stuff in our marriage. Many were mine that I tried and try to fix. Many were beyond my control entirely. Some will be here with us forever.

Sometimes I do wonder how is it on the "other side". Is the grass really greener? Are other girls/women out in the world much healthier and consequently, is my W's high-functioning BPD really that bad compared to different problems other people have? Meaning, how much would I be able to tolerate something else? What about me? How much am I disordered or affected after 23 years?

But one thing I'm absolutely sure of - if my W would go beyond control, be overly narcissistic, unable to work and handle herself, I wouldn't even consider reconciling. That's my biggest no-pasarán boundary.

[grumpydonut]

Lists like this are great for building a wall that's high enough to keep out crazy, just don't build it so high that you keep out everyone.

[WhatToDo47]

Very helpful list and great topic and conversation. Thanks!

[judee]

I would like to add one:
Before you get to know someone, be aware of how that person treats themselves and their environment.

- He/she often has  profound hateful, continuous conflict(s) with someone in their family and/or multiple people in their environment. I am not talking irritations.

[alterK]

Well yeah, a list like this is very helpful, if only to jog our thoughts, and yes, there's a risk of its getting too long and just turning into an inventory of bad behavior.

That said, I'll add a major one that I ignored years ago, to my sorrow: Describing the failures of past relationships as if they were only the fault of others.

My soon-to-be ex told me about her three previous marriages, and she described all the failures as being due to her ex-husbands' bad behavior. The only mistake she would admit to was "I chose the wrong person." She talked about problems at past jobs in the same terms. It was always her bosses. She never did anything wrong.

Someone who refuses to understand how they contributed their share to past relationship problems is a person who is certain to eventually put you into the basket of people who disappoint them.

[WhatToDo47]

Those are beautiful additions and so true, and definitely apply to my ex and I'm sure so many here. Thanks!

[SinisterComplex]

Hello everyone, I will repost this thread from this site which is rather eye-opening...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329294.0;all

Please refer to this for reference.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[WhatToDo47]

Hello everyone, I will repost this thread from this sight which is rather eye-opening...

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329294.0;all

Please refer to this for reference.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

Thanks so much, SC! This is fascinating. Going to read all of it including the linked continuation posts after the thread reached its post limit. Clearly, this is a topic that many of us care about and want to learn more about!

[Tupla Sport]

"frequently have a strange, emotionless, black-eyed stare as if they are dead inside. Not talking about resting bitch face here, but about the phenomenon where you look at someone and the vibe you get from them is completely catatonic. Not threatening or angry, just dead. You'll know it when you see it.  Run.

will never reciprocate questions. Normal people will ask "And how are you?" "And how was your week?" "Oh, and when is your birthday?" etc. Perhaps always, but the vast majority of the time. If someone never reciprocates, something is off."

These points! A lot of the points you made I agreed with but these two strike me as especially pertinent to my exwBPD.

When we lived together, she used to this thing when we would bump into each other at my apartment where she would just stop and stare at me, emotionless, and I think she tried to pass it off as being "cute" in some way. I thought it was unnerving and it frustrated me. Maybe it's because I'm an extrovert but if somebody "pulls me by my sleeve" I expect there to be SOMETHING. Like the tiniest bit of verbality. If you're going to bother me by invading my space only to stare at me, we have a problem. She also did this after sex for a long while, trying to pass it off as "just vibing". Like I prefer introverts as partners and know that not anyone is as verbal as I am but thinking back, I was really unnerved by the void in her presence. We would finish having sex, she would be on her phone in a manner of minutes after "vibing" in complete silence. Even if we had very good sex, she would just kind of mechanically say "Wow, that sure was something" and it did sound like she was commenting on a mechanical procedure and how well it went.

The other point: at some point in our never-ending quest to fine-tune and micromanage our convos she decided that it was somehow wrong to expect that the other person asked a question like "how was your day" back. She tried to gaslight me by telling me that it's creepy and unwarranted. For a while I actually thought so, convinced that I was being a codependent wreck. Little things like that stack and I did feel very weird about it. Like when our relationship fizzled from the constant lovebombing phase, she would suddenly become hollow like that. Not aware of social cues and being socially lazy in a way that makes your partner go "huh?"

[Tupla Sport]

"The Wolfish Grin. There's a kind of manic, wolfish grin which I've only ever seen on dysfunctional people, and it occurs in a sudden state of high arousal (strikingly uncharacteristic but just as pronounced in generally passive, introverted characters), e.g. when they've talked themselves into a frenzy over something that will positively affect them (often something quite mundane, like vacation time, food they want to eat etc.). This is markedly different from "healthy person joy", which always seems to have an element of humility or innocent, childlike wonder. When normal people talk about something they are passionate about, they seem pleasant, engaging, approachable and harmless; when dysfunctional people do the same, often with manic exaggeration, there is something wild, off-kilter and predatory about them. Difficult to describe, but you'll know it when you see it."

I got this in our fights. She would not upkeep her boundaries for days and weeks on end, then stage a fight when she realized I was going to bring something up. She had the look of a madwoman in her eyes when she was at her peak. Some times she was threatening me with police while doing the grin. She was at absolute war with me. It was harrowing.

"won't try to console or comfort you when you're in tears/ill. Even the most socially awkward person will attempt a "there, there" if you're upset. If they just look at you blankly while you're crying and don't even ask what's wrong, you're dealing with someone who has a severe empathy (and probably personality) defect."

This too. I had almost forgotten about this. Every time I broke down and cried in front of her in a somewhat surprising event, she would just stare at me or past me and go "I have no idea what you want from me, you gotta tell me what you want from me! I can't stand this!"

[PeteWitsend]

I'd lump "wolfish grin" and "dead-eyed stare" into another category: "unusually noticeable physical responses"

I never saw either the wolfish grin or dead-eyed stare, but when BPDxw would become dysregulated & in an extreme emotional state, here pupils would become dilated and here eyes would be really wide, and it looked like no one was home.  It was a clue that we were about to enter the Twiligh Zone. 

[csquare319]

I'd lump "wolfish grin" and "dead-eyed stare" into another category: "unusually noticeable physical responses"

I never saw either the wolfish grin or dead-eyed stare, but when BPDxw would become dysregulated & in an extreme emotional state, here pupils would become dilated and here eyes would be really wide, and it looked like no one was home.  It was a clue that we were about to enter the Twiligh Zone. 

I had the same experience. Once I called her out on a lie, she became so furious that her face turned bloody red, both of her eyes turned pitch black as her pupils almost entirely filled her entire eye sockets. It was like seeing someone who is demon-possessed.

[WhatToDo47]

Wow. Never ceases to amaze me how similar our experiences are. I have seen all of these things, and it was so unnerving.

Thanks for distilling all this and reminding me (and so many here) what we escaped, thank God!

Especially the dead eyes are so familiar. My ex would get this horrible look of panic and then the blank stare, bodily shaking in a very violent way, cruel lashing out, finally falling asleep or coming out of it crying and shaking, desperately saying "I'm crazy, I'm a bad wife, please don't ever leave me." The next day, she would say she didn't remember any of it.

[Tupla Sport]

"are quick to criticise you, yet hate/refuse to be corrected themselves; even if it is about minor, seemingly harmless things."

This was funny. My exwBPD was a very submissive type, but she had this knack for passive-aggressively correcting my pronounciation of foreign words. Like if I pronounced an English word weird or with just a rarer dialect, she would mumble the word in her pronounciation in reply. She never understood why it made me so nervous. Like imagine talking about something, and your conversation partner focuses on  pronounciation but doesn't do it assertively. Like, I'm fine if someone goes "actually, I think that's pronounced..." but she just half-mumbled the word and would say that that's just her being her, interested in words.

Even if she wasn't being aggressively critical of me, she could not picture why I felt nervous. If the reverse happened and I corrected her on something, even doing it properly in an assertive, transparent manner, she would not take it at all

[WhatToDo47]

"are quick to criticise you, yet hate/refuse to be corrected themselves; even if it is about minor, seemingly harmless things."

This was funny. My exwBPD was a very submissive type, but she had this knack for passive-aggressively correcting my pronounciation of foreign words. Like if I pronounced an English word weird or with just a rarer dialect, she would mumble the word in her pronounciation in reply. She never understood why it made me so nervous. Like imagine talking about something, and your conversation partner focuses on  pronounciation but doesn't do it assertively. Like, I'm fine if someone goes "actually, I think that's pronounced..." but she just half-mumbled the word and would say that that's just her being her, interested in words.

Even if she wasn't being aggressively critical of me, she could not picture why I felt nervous. If the reverse happened and I corrected her on something, even doing it properly in an assertive, transparent manner, she would not take it at all

Fascinating observation. Sounds about right. Thanks for sharing!

[poppy2]

I might suggest that we already know that belittling, lying, kicking the dog, and boiling our rabbit are bad.

It seems to me that what we need to know 1) when to walk away and 2) how to have the strength to do so.

Thanks Sappho for your eloquent list, and thanks for Skip for his apposite questions which always effect a clear and challenging reversal!

I would like to provide an answer, one and a half years out from being treated like garbage, and my suggestion is to remove  the other person from the equation entirely. What I have found is that when we are fulfilled and purposeful in an activity, which is wholly ours or which we share with colleagues or friends, it generates a great self-respect which is worth more to us to preserve than whatever an entangled, desirous, or hopeful/precarious relationship dynamic can bring. That is to say: confidence and self-possession is sexy.

I know this because I'm only just beginning to recover parts of myself which were violently taken away from me during the last 3-4 years in toxic, BPD relationships (well, one BPD, I think the other something worse). Sometimes, there is no larger reason, and no larger schema which can protect us from misfortune. But it is true that if we nurture whatever it is makes us feel whole, loved, purposeful, strong, right, pretty, valued, or eager, then it is far, far less likely that we will ever allow someone else to muck that up.

And surely, everybody can find something that is worth more to them than the demands or opinions of somebody else.

So, to answer the two questions: we know it is terminal when we can reognize that what we deeply value is threatened, and feel it on a gut level. This takes cultivation of self-awareness instead of self-denial or the avoidance of stress.

Second, it is easy to be fearful when you don't feel you have something meaningful that is yours. And believe me when I say that I know what it feels like to have that, what it feels like to lose it, and now what it feels like to (slowly) recover it. But this fear is not unhealthy to have, just unhealthy to misdirect towards another imperfect, possibly also dangerous or deranged, human being. My point being that one does not have to confront a fear that isn't there because it is being fulfilled elsewhere.

What I think is so difficult about these relationships, at least in my experience and through observation, is that they consume us to the point where what is ours no longer is clear. Before I ever had these experiences I simply found I attracted the right people to me by doing the things that were right for me... And if somebody has never had that experience before, I would suggest modeling it as a 'hopeful' behavior that will work out if you try - fate and the universe willing.

Poppy out

[WhatToDo47]

Thanks Sappho for your eloquent list, and thanks for Skip for his apposite questions which always effect a clear and challenging reversal!

I would like to provide an answer, one and a half years out from being treated like garbage, and my suggestion is to remove  the other person from the equation entirely. What I have found is that when we are fulfilled and purposeful in an activity, which is wholly ours or which we share with colleagues or friends, it generates a great self-respect which is worth more to us to preserve than whatever an entangled, desirous, or hopeful/precarious relationship dynamic can bring. That is to say: confidence and self-possession is sexy.

I know this because I'm only just beginning to recover parts of myself which were violently taken away from me during the last 3-4 years in toxic, BPD relationships (well, one BPD, I think the other something worse). Sometimes, there is no larger reason, and no larger schema which can protect us from misfortune. But it is true that if we nurture whatever it is makes us feel whole, loved, purposeful, strong, right, pretty, valued, or eager, then it is far, far less likely that we will ever allow someone else to muck that up.

And surely, everybody can find something that is worth more to them than the demands or opinions of somebody else.

So, to answer the two questions: we know it is terminal when we can reognize that what we deeply value is threatened, and feel it on a gut level. This takes cultivation of self-awareness instead of self-denial or the avoidance of stress.

Second, it is easy to be fearful when you don't feel you have something meaningful that is yours. And believe me when I say that I know what it feels like to have that, what it feels like to lose it, and now what it feels like to (slowly) recover it. But this fear is not unhealthy to have, just unhealthy to misdirect towards another imperfect, possibly also dangerous or deranged, human being. My point being that one does not have to confront a fear that isn't there because it is being fulfilled elsewhere.

What I think is so difficult about these relationships, at least in my experience and through observation, is that they consume us to the point where what is ours no longer is clear. Before I ever had these experiences I simply found I attracted the right people to me by doing the things that were right for me... And if somebody has never had that experience before, I would suggest modeling it as a 'hopeful' behavior that will work out if you try - fate and the universe willing.

Poppy out

This is amazing advice. Thank you so much!

[Notwendy]

To add to the list- Skip made a good point about behaviors- sometimes people mess up- so I'd add one to the list- lack of accountability for one's own behavior.

I think our response to "bad behavior" also reflects our own values. The advice "don't make the list so long that everyone is excluded" but what behaviors are deal breakers and which ones are not reflect our boundaries.

We can't expect any human to be perfect but we can match our most important values. If we value honesty- then being dishonest is a deal breaker.

I think though, many of the more subtle behaviors aren't the big bad ones, but some that push the edges of boundaries. I also think they have a sense of when they have pushed too far- and how they respond is key to that.

What I have observed with someone with a PD isn't an apology. There isn't an honest discussion about the issue. There's a "see I am good now" and one is not supposed to bring up the concerning situation. Brining it up results in an angry response. This leaves one to question our own perception "Was this me? Did I get upset about nothing"

I think many people have difficulty with an honest apology- not just people with BPD, including the non partner sometimes. What this involves is acknowledging the behavior- saying one is sorry and won't do it again and then makes an effort to not do it again.

Then, one has to look at the behavior itself- is it a one time thing, a repeated pattern, something that violates boundaries. " I am sorry I forgot to give you that phone message" "sorry I didn't call you back today - it was a hectic day at work"  is a different level from " I am sorry I cheated on you" or "sorry I stole your money"

I would also add to trust your gut- if you feel uncomfortable around the person, if you feel somehow dismissed, invalidated- no matter what other good things there are about the relationship- pay attention. There doesn't even have to be anything "wrong" with the other person- they may just not be the person for you.

[WhatToDo47]

To add to the list- Skip made a good point about behaviors- sometimes people mess up- so I'd add one to the list- lack of accountability for one's own behavior.

I think our response to "bad behavior" also reflects our own values. The advice "don't make the list so long that everyone is excluded" but what behaviors are deal breakers and which ones are not reflect our boundaries.

We can't expect any human to be perfect but we can match our most important values. If we value honesty- then being dishonest is a deal breaker.

I think though, many of the more subtle behaviors aren't the big bad ones, but some that push the edges of boundaries. I also think they have a sense of when they have pushed too far- and how they respond is key to that.

What I have observed with someone with a PD isn't an apology. There isn't an honest discussion about the issue. There's a "see I am good now" and one is not supposed to bring up the concerning situation. Brining it up results in an angry response. This leaves one to question our own perception "Was this me? Did I get upset about nothing"

I think many people have difficulty with an honest apology- not just people with BPD, including the non partner sometimes. What this involves is acknowledging the behavior- saying one is sorry and won't do it again and then makes an effort to not do it again.

Then, one has to look at the behavior itself- is it a one time thing, a repeated pattern, something that violates boundaries. " I am sorry I forgot to give you that phone message" "sorry I didn't call you back today - it was a hectic day at work"  is a different level from " I am sorry I cheated on you" or "sorry I stole your money"

I would also add to trust your gut- if you feel uncomfortable around the person, if you feel somehow dismissed, invalidated- no matter what other good things there are about the relationship- pay attention. There doesn't even have to be anything "wrong" with the other person- they may just not be the person for you.

As always, beautifully said and so helpful. Thank you!

[Turkish]

As is said in one of our top level articles, self-righteousness is not a right.

I'll confess that sometimes I was so angry or "butt-hurt" as the kids say, that I told her, who are you that I should apologize to you?

Not helpful or healthy. Forgiveness shouldn't be conditional.

[Notwendy]

Thanks for the kind words WhatToDo47.

Turkish makes a good point. I think it's anger that gives us "righteous indignation". Anger is a feeling, like many feelings, but I think it can be labeled as bad due to how we act when angry.

The acronym "HALT" which stands for hungry, angry, lonely, tired ( we could add some more emotions to this) is a reminder that when we feel these feelings, we may not act at our best. It's not that these feelings are wrong- they are signals for us to do some self care and not act out when we feel them.

I have heard that anger can put us into "fight or flight" mode and it makes us feel powerful in the moment, and self righteous, but this is a time we are prone to saying things we would not usually say.

The concept of forgiveness is hard. Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves, not the other person. It's not about if they deserve it or not. But it's not the same as forgetting or tolerating being treated poorly. If the person repeatedly disregards your boundaries, or you feel frequently angry and upset when with them, then you can determine how to relate to them. But letting go of resentment is for you.

[WhatToDo47]

Amazingly said and super helpful. Really like that HALT acronym. Great points, Notwendy and Turkish. Have a great night all! Prayers and love!

[Tupla Sport]

I have to say, this thread is amazing when I start missing my ex randomly. Reading just a few lines puts my mind back on track. Thank you everyone.