Subtle mind games and control…

[thankful person]

Hi all,

Things have been going well so far with me starting my new job and my wife looking after our 1 and 2 year olds (new baby due at the beginning of November). I know it’s early days but my wife seems to be calm and coping well with the two of them on her own.

My concern is that she has not been taking our eldest to day care two mornings a week (due to become five mornings in January). She said it’s because the child is not well but she seems well enough to me. My wife has also said she won’t be taking her in if it snows. I understand and agree there are safety concerns with the driving, but there could be snow on the ground for months in our new town we just moved to.

My wife has always taken the child to day care and has turned down my offer to drop her off instead. I fear she will be even less keen to take her when she has three children. My wife knows how important it is to me that our daughter attends, for her own social and learning needs, as well as the fact that we are paying for it. It feels as though my wife is punishing me for starting my new job, though I know it is unhelpful to think that and I’m sure she would say it has nothing to do with me.

Any ideas? I know we can’t make pwbpd do anything and we just have our own behaviour to control. I’ve done my best so far by just calmly accepting this situation and not judging it. What more can I do to help our daughter access this important daycare experience which we are paying for?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

I think the obvious is that you take her, especially since there's a new baby soon and it's a challenge to get up and drive kids to school and take care of a newborn, even for someone without BPD.

I will gladly admit that I drove kids to school in my pajamas sometimes! My focus was on getting them dressed and ready for school first and if I didn't get dressed, that was how it was. I also was grateful if someone would carpool with me and share the driving. Newborn care is time consuming.

If your wife "won't let you" then this is an unrealistic request made out of her own emotional need and wanting control. Someone needs to step in for the best interest of the child and if she won't- then that's you.

[thankful person]

Thanks not Wendy,

I’m hoping bpdw will come to this conclusion and decision all on her own, especially when the new one arrives. It’s a balancing act of standing up for what I believe in, but also trying to steer her towards seeing other options and then sometimes she makes the decision “all by herself”. This was indeed what happened lots after the birth of our second, when she realised she could use my help in getting the older child to sleep etc, which had always been her thing.

I am wary. My wife is much calmer and better behaved now, but that is still with her feeling she has most of the control over what happens round here. You may remember early on when someone in bpd family encouraged me to stand up to her. She screamed at me to stop reading to our older child and to put her down, and when I refused she put down the new born in order to snatch the older one from me and physically threw me out of the room. Fortunately this was the last time she laid a finger on me around June 2021. But I do fear it could happen again if I insisted I was taking the child to nursery without her “consent”.

[Notwendy]

I understand but I think you know that acting on this fear is walking on eggshells. It's also validating the invalid. She may want total control but you are the parent too. Understandably you are in the position of trying to balance your wife's emotional needs and the needs of your kids. In an emotionally healthy situation, these two needs would not be in conflict with each other.

Your wife wanting excessive control over the children is her emotional need. It's not a need of theirs. A parent with a PD sees children as extensions of themselves, expected to meet the parent's needs. This is in conflict with the child's developmental task which is to grow as an individual person. Now of course as parents we don't allow the child more independence than what is age appropriate, it's done in increments, but it starts very soon with allowing them to feed themselves with teething biscuits, holding their own sippy cup, letting a toddler attempt to dress themselves. teaching them to put their toys back in the toy bin. Toddlers can be argumentative and tantrum as they struggle to gain autonomy while parents remain in control for the child's own well being.

You know that toddlers do better when there is a routine and preschool provides routine as well as other kids to play with. A new baby is a big change. You know it's best to have the routine of going to preschool established before the baby comes as it's harder to start something new at the same time. '

Every book I have read on marriage states that the marital bond should be stronger and that one parent aligning with the child over the other parent can be troublesome. But how does one do this when the other parent's needs over ride the needs of the child? That's a difficult situation. I know if you step in, you become persecutor in the triangle. I hope there's a way to solve this.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy,

You are right, my wife has retained the control she has over the children in our relationship. I have taken back much of the control over myself and the way I live my life which has been fantastic. But my wife still has the final say over anything to do with the children. So I sometimes take them places alone, but only when she suggests it for whatever reason.

So I am aware that I need to tackle the daycare issue, if she continues to choose not to take the child in for no good reason. Is it better that I say something of my intentions or just wait until it happens and then just say, “I’ll take her” and see what happens. It’s heart-breaking to think of my daughter (who turns 3 tomorrow) seeing any violence between us as she would have no memory of this and it would be very upsetting. She loves going to nursery and would also be upset if I said we were going and then my wife physically stopped us.

The other issue is that I would have a very limited window where I would have to leave and get my daughter there before I start work in another town. So my wife will probably just assure me that they will get there soon if everyone’s not ready. I’m hoping my wife will take her next week but if they don’t make it there on Monday, maybe I’ll just say, I’ll take her on Wed. What do you think?

[Notwendy]

If it's this much of a struggle, perhaps the better way is for your wife to experience the natural consequences of this decision to not let you drive.

It's easy to forget how time consuming a newborn is and how much time one needs for feeding, then changing diapers, then feeding again. Add to that some jealous toddlers who want attention. If you wife can manage having all of them at home, well that's impressive.

For me, when mine were little, if my spouse offered to drive the older one to preschool- that child would be dressed and in their car seat in a split second! The few hours of preschool were a sanity saver. The toddler is playing with friends and happy and if the baby naps, I might have gotten a shower if I was lucky.

Some of this might be just an idea to her - being able to do it all but once she's experienced caring for a newborn with active toddler siblings, she may change her mind about letting you drive.

[formflier]

An approach to consider..

"Hey babe...what days are most helpful for me to drop off Junior at preschool this week?"

compared to

"Hey..will you allow me to drop off our child on my way to work?"

Basically...think about the assumptions involved in the language you pick

Mentally prepare for pushback and weird statements so they don't trigger you. 

You've got this!

Best,

FF

[Couscous]

Technically speaking you are experiencing domestic violence. Even in the absence of physical violence, your wife’s behaviour could be considered to be coercive control. Perhaps this charity has resources you could tap into: https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/coercive-control/

[thankful person]

Thank you all for your replies. Bpdw has now said that she would like me to drop off the older child in the weeks following new baby’s arrival. So I’m hoping she is coming to terms with the fact that it may make sense for me to do this long-term. She would still have to collect our daughter once I’m back at work, but it’s later in the day so less time pressures.

FF, I have indeed changed much of the way I speak to my wife. I used to ask permission to do anything work-related during our time together, or say, “shall I take a picture of the children?” Of course the answer was always no so then I felt I couldn’t do what I wanted to do. Now I do what I want including video calling my parents without even announcing my intentions or asking if it’s ok.

So I’m still taking it slowly. Couscous, you are right, I guess coercive control still plays a part. I have been in bpd family for 18 months now. I’m so proud of how far I’ve come and how happy I am to make my own choices. Every little change will make a difference to my children’s upbringing and mental health. But I expect I will still be asking for advice and support  here  for years to come and I’m very grateful.

[formflier]

What you are experiencing now is that the "seed" you planted and left alone...is now growing.

It appears at first your wife was not a fan of the idea of you doing the drop off (for now, let's not try to figure out why...just focus on what is and what was).

Very wisely and also without capitulating, you kinda left it alone for a while.  Basically planted a seed, let her have whatever "thinking process"..."emotional process" she experiences and low and behold..that "seed" you planted has started to grow.

Perhaps now it's more "her idea"...just leave that alone, focus on the time with your child.

Over time, she will likely come to realize and appreciate your help made things easier.

Best,

FF

[SaltyDawg]

What you guys have described of 'planting the seed' can be found in the book:  Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad

For this and other great tools can be found in that book. 

One word of advice, the bigger the change, the longer the process of planting the seed.  You will need to do trial and error to figure out how much is too much, too fast, too soon - I found out the hard way, if you go too fast it will explode in your face big time.  You also need to be able to read your Borderline and back off if they are agitated, anxious, or can't deal with it.

[thankful person]

Thanks FF and Salty dawg,

“Stop caretaking” is one of my favourite books. I have it on audible and I still listen to it in my car so I’ve heard it lots of times.

I also had dramatic and unwanted reactions at first but my wife is generally much better behaved now. But more controlling where the children are concerned than when it’s about me, for example she used to have the power to convince me I look stupid and change my outfit. Not any more.

I think it’s important to remember that, whilst the advice is, stop caretaking, it will always be a special needs relationship. Whilst we are not wanting to rearrange the world to please the pwbpd at the detriment of our own happiness and mental health… certain things are required on a daily basis to keep things calm such as validating continually and planting seeds carefully etc.

[SaltyDawg]

TP,

   Thank you for you insight.  I too have observed that my Borderline will shift her 'lashing out' from me to our son who is also showing early signs of being a Borderline [splitting/raging], fortunately he is young enough (11yo) where counseling can do him a lot of good.  I have to remind him not to JADE when my wife is splitting.  It's tough when there is at least triple witching in my home.

   I know that my wife knows that something is wrong; however, she is in denial that it is Borderline (she thinks it is anxiety and depression) -- but she is reading books on BPD [as a result of an unintended intervention style awareness that I imparted on her - not recommended in any of the books] -- so I have hope.  Eventually I will be bringing up the frustration that she feels in our son when he is splitting/raging as that is how I feel when she does the same to me.  I plan on using this mutual observation to assist her in becoming self-aware of BPD when our new couple's therapy starts - hopefully later on this month.  I used to be reactive to both of them when they did this, now I'm not, even though I do slip from time to time when she really hits my buttons and do the "D" in JADE.

   Three years ago our daughter had full blown AN and was hospitalized for it (Anorexia Nervosa - pre-pubescent at the time), so my wife will not lash out at her, as I suspect that she feels that she was the cause of it while I was out at sea (I was a sailor by trade, recently retired 3 years ago due to this and a knee injury) -- even though the death of my father was officially listed as the trigger of her AN; however, my daughter's medical records indicate that her weight was falling several months prior to the medical decline of my father, I was out to sea, which leaves a very limited number of identifiable stressors.  However, in the meantime my daughter has become the lead caretaker in our family dynamic (currently 15yo).  I will also be drawing parallels to our daughter's AN treatment when the appropriate moment of self-awareness for my wife arrives as there are some similarities.

   My only goal, is for my wife to become self-aware, as I am fairly certain she will do the right thing when she indeed does become self-aware as her moral compass is exceptionally strong.

   Validation - I do a lot more validating now that I previously did -- 3-5x more that I did before [previously it was one time per 'good' deed/behavior/accomplishment/observation/etc. -- now it is several times, and it has to be 'genuine' and not to just stroke their ego or fluff them up -- this too needs to be determined by trial and error -- if too much, it will become meaningless.  I validate every reasonable opportunity that is available without going overboard -- I know this is very important to do this for all of my family members.

   I am still a noob at this, still in the trial and error process to see what works best in the multi-dynamic situation that I find myself in.  There are multiple counselors involved, 3 individual therapists, and we are currently changing couple's therapists as the previous one couldn't handle a BPD relationship as her recommendations [doing a DBT 'homework' assignment] inadvertently triggered my wife to do another suicide attempt and an intentional major divorce threat (the easier solution to a high conflict marriage) which revealed the mutually codependent nature of our relationship [the Borderlines and their Caretakers - plural on both], and there was a boatload of countertransference [ -- which I thought she was using to keep my Borderline wife in counseling since he fired all of the previous ones we saw, but when this counselor gave away my wife's timeslots [for the past three years] to other patients -- the counselor effectively cold ghosted us.  For the moment, I am very motivated to improve things, while attempting to keep my expectations of change low - so I am not disappointed in the result of the change. 

   I also agree that the planting seeds 'carefully' is also needed.  Some may germinate, others may not.  It's a lot to handle and manage and potentially mismanage.

   I am doing everything in my power to protect my children from my Borderline wife, yet provide as much of a positive and caring environment for them so the lashing out doesn't shift to them -- I need to keep my irrational [only when splitting] wife's anger focused on me, yet temper it so her physical violence is avoided and her emotional abuse is reduced.

   Any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.

[Notwendy]

I want to caution you about an assumption that an 11 year old has signs of BPD. Maybe so, but maybe not. Even in a stable family, the hormonal and mood swings common to adolescents can appear similar to the behaviors of an adult with BPD. The difference is that it's age appropriate for the child at their developmental stage.

Behavioral and emotional disorders can appear to be the child's problem when actually it's a result of the child's particular emotional make up and the stress from the issues at home. Since children have their own resilience levels, their response can vary. There are also learned behaviors.

I think you can do the best you can in a difficult situation. A mother though is a a significant person to a child and has influence on them.

[Couscous]

SaltDawg,

I’m not sure if you’ve read Margalis Fjelstad‘s latest book for parents: https://www.amazon.com/Raising-Resilient-Children-Borderline-Narcissistic/dp/1538127636/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=99ACA55D-FFF5-457C-A897-48CF7432CF41

Another book by Randi Kreger’s co-author of her new book “Stop Walking on Eggshells for Parents” that you might wish to check out is “When a Loved One has BPD” by Daniel S. Lobel. He is a big proponent of what he calls “stopping the bleeding”, which you do by kindly but firmly, by disengaging and walking away when the BPD has an emotional outburst directed at you. I have used a similar approach with my brother, and was surprised at how quickly he began to reign in his angry outbursts.

[SinisterComplex]

SaltDawg,

I’m not sure if you’ve read Margalis Fjelstad‘s latest book for parents: https://www.amazon.com/Raising-Resilient-Children-Borderline-Narcissistic/dp/1538127636/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=99ACA55D-FFF5-457C-A897-48CF7432CF41

Another book by Randi Kreger’s co-author of her new book “Stop Walking on Eggshells for Parents” that you might wish to check out is “When a Loved One has BPD” by Daniel S. Lobel. He is a big proponent of what he calls “stopping the bleeding”, which you do by kindly but firmly, by disengaging and walking away when the BPD has an emotional outburst directed at you. I have used a similar approach with my brother, and was surprised at how quickly he began to reign in his angry outbursts.

SD, I am going to put this in more plain terms with what Coucous said here. The goal is to be firm and indifferent. The focus and goal is to keep your emotional composure so situations do not escalate. I work on this with a close friend of mine in his dealings with his ex wife. Even when you want to let loose you cannot. You have to always be on guard in the sense that the disordered person wants the situation to be emotionally charged so they gain control and the upper hand. Your goal is to not let that happen or the chaos just continues in a big circle.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Ergonomics]

I went through something similar in the middle of last year. My partner would always do things from a very passive-aggressive way. If I were you, I would see this as an opportunity to bring up some baggage that's been plaguing the relationship.

I used to get upset and take this stuff personally - it wasn't until I started a conversation with her in a very gentle way and showed her I understood the reasons behind the passive-aggressive behavior that things began to look up.

Let me know if you want to reach out to chat details of the how.

[Couscous]

You have to always be on guard in the sense that the disordered person wants the situation to be emotionally charged so they gain control and the upper hand.

This is what it all boils down to. Gaining and maintaining power and control is their absolute highest priority.

[formflier]

This is what it all boils down to. Gaining and maintaining power and control is their absolute highest priority.

It often seems this way and in some cases perhaps it is a thoughtful expression of priorities.

Food for thought.

What if it just "seemed like" they want control?  What other thing might be the "elephant in the room"?

What "payoff" does a pwBPD likely get for all of the "chaos" (reference SinsterComplex post)?

Best,

FF

[Couscous]

It often seems this way and in some cases perhaps it is a thoughtful expression of priorities.

Food for thought.

What if it just "seemed like" they want control?  What other thing might be the "elephant in the room"?

What "payoff" does a pwBPD likely get for all of the "chaos" (reference SinsterComplex post)?

Best,

FF

Well I'm not attempting to vilify them here, but they most definitely do want control since it is the only way for them to feel safe. An additional payoff is that being in the one-up position also allows them to feel OK, but they can only feel OK at the expense of others, as in "I'm OK, you're not OK", Persecutor-Victim dynamic.

But not to put all the responsibility on the pwBPD though because usually the people around them are also attempting to covertly control by caretaking the pwBPD in their role as Rescuer, which is also a way for them to feel OK by being in the one-up position. So everyone who participates in Karpman triangle dynamics is "guilty" and is playing a part in the dysfunction.

[formflier]

Sometimes looking at an issue from a new perspective lets you see "paths" that you didn't see before.

I'm sure there are some pwBPD that are "thoughtful" in how they dominate others.  As in they are deliberate about doing things to "one up".

What I would encourage everyone to consider is what if it just "seemed" that way because of the way they chased (or where chased by) their emotions.  Add into that the concept that pwBPD are poor at "emotional regulation" and also that they usually "externalize" their emotions, rather than realize those come from "inside" them.

Perhaps looking at it from this perspective will alter how you see that person and perhaps alter the manner in which you respond to what you perceive as "attempts at control".

Best,

FF

[Couscous]

Perhaps looking at it from this perspective will alter how you see that person and perhaps alter the manner in which you respond to what you perceive as "attempts at control".

I agree with you. Understanding what drives their extreme need for control and dominance certainly makes is easier to respond rather than react, by say, becoming submissive and allowing them to lash out/rage at you, and also helps to not take their behavior personally.

[Notwendy]

Control is a way to manage anxiety. When someone feels "out of control" they seek to control what they can. We see this in young children, who may pitch a fit because they want to wear the blue pajamas and not the green ones. To the frustrated parent trying to get the child ready for bed, this seems insignificant, but small children are learning to manage their feelings and want to control what they can.

It's hard to know if the wish to control is to manage emotions or to feel better by dominating someone else. Perhaps it's a bit of both.

Emotional outbursts are ways to release uncomfortable feelings. We see this with toddler tantrums. Difficulty managing uncomfortable feelings are part of BPD--but also involves the partner/person in relationship with them. We manage our uncomfortable feelings by trying to control theirs- walk on eggshells, appeasement. A key to changing this pattern is to gain better emotional regulation skills ourselves. How can we self soothe while they are upset?

[SaltyDawg]

Notwendy,

   Thank you for your reminder about adolescent mood swings of my 11S.  He has already been under professional licensed counseling for aggressive, defiant, and oppositional behaviors for the past two years - with some results.  However, when I asked the counselor to shift, and I shifted too once I figured out my wife has uBPD learned that aquiring BPD there is both a genetic component and environmental component - both of which are present in my home in relationship to him, and I am aware that symptoms can manifest themselves as early as this age.  Once we shifted (son's T, my T, and myself) to using tools designed for BPD, the amount of progress shifted from a very slow pace to an extremely fast one circumstantially indicating that we are on to 'something'.  More progress was made in the past two months than in the previous two years and we are now able to start addressing less serious issues like abandonment, especially at night time.

   As of 3 months ago I was totally unaware of BPD - it wasn't until I started my my own individual T, who holds a PhD in psychology, he asked me if my wife had been evaluated for BPD/BiPolar in our first session when I described our passionate yet tumultuous relationship to my wife.  On the 2nd session, he gave me a book on BPD from his personal library, it was an eye opener.  As a result, I have literally done hundreds of hours of research to try and figure out what is going on with my wife, our son, and our family dynamic.  After learning about BPD, I can only describe it as being as profound as the Biblical story of Adam and Eve, where Adam eats from the tree of knowledge, and his eyes are opened, only long enough to be cast out from the garden of Eden.

   I am hoping that my son's behaviors are 'learned' as suggested by you and my T; however, here is why I think they aren't especially since I have unpleasant advantage of observing both sets of BPD-like symptoms in both my wife and my son.  If it was a 'learned' behavior, I should be able to snap him out immediately by threatening to take away his 'screen time' which works if agitated at me [normal adolescent behavior] versus an uncontrollable rage [not normal]. 

   My observations of BPD Rages in my loved ones:

My Wife - Hers range from 15 minutes to just over 7 hours, with a typical rage/splitting episode lasting 2-4 hours previously, now it is 15 minutes -2 hours with tools.  During this time period, she cannot be reasoned with and is totally irrational and is yelling and screaming almost all of the time, often inches away from my face and on rare occasions has a physical component to it.  When she stops raging/splitting, and returns to a normal baseline mental state -- she remembers how nasty I was to her [which has almost stopped on my part which has resulting in dramatically reducing the duration of these episodes], but takes no accountability for her own actions and has never apologized for her actions.  >99% of her splits are only done when I am present -- she lashes out at the one she loves the most.  Now that I am using tools, some of it has shifted to our 11S, where I have to remind my son not to JADE to diffuse it, and I really can't leave that situation for safety issues.

My Son - His range from 5 minutes to 45 minutes, with a typical rage/splitting episode lasting 15-30 minutes.  Like my wife, during this time period he cannot be reasoned with and is totally irrational and is yelling and screaming, and has a physical component more frequently than my wife does, about once every 4 episodes.   However, when he stops raging/splitting, and returns to his normal baseline mental state -- he remembers everything, and apologizes profusely for his behavior and is extremely remorseful.  The majority of his splits are in front of his mom [the one he loves the most] and other family members are often present, such as myself & 15D.  Very few (can be counted on one hand) of his splits are with me alone which was usually manipulated/instigated by my wife.

   Since this is a dual dynamic with dual [undiagnosed, as of now, as the average diagnosis takes over 3 years] BPD (my wife, and my son) with dual caretakers (my daughter, and myself) I have an advantage and disadvantage of seeing the differing yet similar manifestations of the illness.

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Couscous,

   Thank you for the additional reading suggestions, the two parent ones are already on my 'to do' reading list.  Thank you for suggesting the Lobel one that one will be added.  btw, Randi Kreger is actively soliciting questions for her next book, on this topic, that she is currently working on in a different forum [Robert Plant's private facebook group] - there will be a new book coming out, probably next year from her on this as well.

   The tool that you and lobel called "stop the bleeding" sounds very similar to what I have read in several other books, same/similar actions called by different names by different authors and T's.  By using that tool, I have been able to dramatically reduce my wife's rages, which are more like passionate splitting now.  It also works for my son too; however, sometimes, I do have to distract him with a screen of his favorite YT videos for a few minutes until he becomes rational, and which time I take it half of his screen time away as punishment for 'bad behavior' after he apologizes for it as his splitting often occurs in a confined space where he needs to be supervised for safety reasons, and cannot be left alone.

   Thank you for your advise and concern.

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SC. 

Thank you for your advise.  Fortunately I can maintain my emotional composure, and when I do 'loose it' usually after several hours, it is measured 'yelling back' [reactive abuse] just enough to stop it.  Now, that I have learned to walk/run away when being chased, it works much better instead of engaging with explaining as our couple's T suggested.

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All,

   I agree it is about maintaining an emotionally charged atmosphere where the BPD has to be in 'control' as the BPD is out of 'control.'  I do let my BPDs control what they can, if it doesn't have negative consequences.  However, if they want too much 'control' [as they will take as much 'control' as they can -- until I or someone else limits that 'control; or if that 'control' takes away others 'control' that becomes problematic.  It is a delicate balancing act, and if T's who generally don't talk to each other, will change that dynamic as they don't want to accept or deal with BPD - things will crash, as each of them are T's are T's for their own mental issues as I have seen first hand in our couple's T.  We are currently  looking for a new couple's T that can handle HCP [high conflict person(ality)] as there are apparently none in my area for BPD when I have asked for recommendations from several authorities.

   The biggest observation I have of persons with 'control' issues [BP/NP/_paths], is that the control is not intentional, but it is learned, from observation and trial and error based on what the non BP/NP is able to do with the ones that they are most comfortable around [parent/child/lover/spouse/sibling].  BPs do these behaviors, as they obtain their desired result in the quickest method possible - usually through a form of manipulation and/or intimidation via rages / splitting -- I feel that the source is subconscious with severe manifestations in the conscious mind in the form of splitting/rages in order for them to get their way -- just like a 2/3 year old would do with a temper tantrum, or a baby crying for its parent's attention (for food and/or touch in order to be held by a parent).  For some reason, or another, this portion of their minds were unable to emotionally develop beyond that, and you have adults, and young adults manifesting with these premature manipulation behaviors whether they are loud like my BPDs or quiet ones who internalize their pain with cutting, scratching, and other behaviors.

On the risk of sounding narcissistic, I have a theory that I would like to explore with you guys/gals, based on my empirical observation, so far my observation rate is 100% (for two undiagnosed BPs, and dozens of diagnosed and hospitalized ANs [Anorexia Nervosa, 1/4 of BPDs share this comorbidity diagnosis and is a listed as a potential symptom/trait of BPD]), on the manipulative nature of BP/NP persons and other high-functioning Cluster B disorders including BPD, I would like to share and explore my observations regarding subtle mind games and control that is generally unconscious in intent but manifests itself as conscious to the one receiving/perceiving it.  This has NOT been discussed in any of the materials (books/videos/forums/etc) to date on this forum that I am aware of after ~300 hours of research in BPD and another ~200 hours for AN, three years ago.  If possible, I would like to take an informal poll of the users of this forum including you (SinisterComplex / formflier --  can you possibly set up an informal poll?) to see if the professionals may have missed something [the narcissistic sounding part].  I would like to offer up my theory for critique [positive and negative] by you guys [if you guys are interesting in hearing something new, but hopefully obvious, when I point it out] to see if it resonates with you, or if it is only specific to the two apparent cases I am familiar with.  It could be a substantial, or it could be nothing -- hopefully the former for a better understanding of the mental aspects of disordered persons.

Let me know if I can express and share my theory with you?

[Notwendy]

Yes, there is a genetic and environmental component to BPD. In my own immediate family, only my mother has BPD. Her family members seem to lean towards NPD at varying levels. I don't see any of this on my father's side, so I don't think it's entirely a given that children of a BPD parent have BPD but it is possible.

One thing to note is that while the tools on this board can help in a relationship with someone with BPD, they also help with other relationships too. The fact that they help in a relationship isn't "diagnostic" for BPD. I do think your son's behavior is more extreme than what is typical of teens but may or may not be BPD. A professional would need to determine that.

I am going to challenge that learned behavior can be snapped out of it when threatened with punishment. There is a principle that is universal to all behaviors. For all behaviors there is a cost and a reinforcement. A behavior will persist when the cost exceeds the payoff, but for some behaviors, the payoff exceeds a high cost. For example, drug addiction has a high personal cost and cost to health but the "high" is still a driving force for it even if the cost is high.

Also, when someone is in the middle of raging- they don't have control. They are flooded with emotions. They can not "snap out of it" in the moment.

For a child, punishment can possibly have a higher payoff than being ignored. Negative attention is still attention. When a punishment doesn't seem to be "working"- the solution may not be to up the punishment, but to reward the desired behavior more.

One aspect of being a child of a parent with BPD is that, just as you have found it impossible to stay on a positive level with your wife- you can do a lot of nice things but one mistake and you are painted black, it's similar for the child. I could be a good child, get good grades, obey my parents but one minor mistake becomes the crime of the century. Approaching the parent about what they said or did is futile. You are blamed for everything. There is no such thing as unconditional love. Your son may not be able to manage his anger, but I suspect he has reason to feel anger and frustration. His mother also rages at him and role model raging at him. How do you expect he's going to do better with this than a grown adult can?

If your son is most angry when with your wife, then he may be responding to her behavior.

This doesn't mean you don't discipline or have limits with a child. He needs limits. One idea is to have him "earn" screen time for things like doing homework or chores rather than punish him with it. Be very careful about punishing him for not tolerating abusive behavior from his mother.  This is different from being expected to follow normal behavioral rules like doing homework and come home by curfew.

Maybe it's BPD or maybe it's not. These could be distress behaviors. I hope he is able to have his own individual counseling to assist him.

[Notwendy]

On your observations of manipulative behavior-

I will go with the functional behavioral idea- which explains all behaviors. Everyone manipulates to some extent. Advertisements are an example of this. What keeps us from being too manipulative is that we also have other skills for obtaining what we want. If we want money for instance- we may take on extra work because we have marketable skills. How does someone gain skills? The more we do- the more we practice a skill, the better we are at it.

Nobody likes to feel incompetent or powerless. As children, we learn ways to get what we want. We then use what has worked to attain it because that behavior is reinforced. If a child has a tantrum, and them gets what they had the tantrum for, they learn that having the tantrum works. They will do this as long as it works for them. If it doesn't work, they will try a new skill.

When a person isn't able to acknowledge their own behaviors, it's hard for them to learn from them. Somehow, I think a person with BPD learned a set of maladaptive behaviors that work for them to get what they want, possibly while not learning the consequences of them on the people who they interact with. I think what you are asking is the actual motivation behind their behaviors.

By conscious, I think you are saying deliberately doing something that is not good for the relationship because it's not kind to the other person. I agree- I don't think the main goal is to do that ( unless they are doing it when angry and wanting the other person to be hurt). I do think though, they are choosing the behavior that works for them because it's the one that works and the one they are best at. If you only have a hammer as a tool - you will hammer something when perhaps a wrench would be a better choice. But you don't know how to use a wrench.

The person who is more self aware learns and practices a different set of relationship tools. We learn that manipulation, or tantrums, on the school playground works but then nobody wants to play with us, so we learn that maybe sharing our cookies at lunch and playing nice works better. As we mature, we learn that there are ways to both get what we want without it negatively impacting relationships. We still have the hammer, but now a whole toolbox with other tools as well.

[thankful person]

Salty Dawg,

I’m certainly open to your theories. My case has been much different to yours as my wife was diagnosed bpd and went through dbt (some of the course) because we met in person, as we met online. The dbt helped her beat eating disorders and self harm so she doesn’t consider that she has bpd anymore.

I immediately knew things were not right with her or our relationship. But I was unhappy in my relationship at the time, and I was sucked in by all the love and adoration. A couple of months before I found bpd family, I asked in a mental health forum online about the issue of my wife refusing to let me take pictures of our baby or send them to my mother. I mentioned that my mother had upset my wife on several occasions. But the overwhelming reaction was either the “run” messages we’re not allowed to use here, or telling me to reason with her (make her realise how upset I was and how upset my mother was).

Reasoning with her was absolutely the worst thing I could have tried and it almost destroyed my marriage. When I found the bpd forum the good folk here got me right on track to improving things. Actually what I realised was that my own anxiety was rubbing off on my wife and she was becoming everything I feared anyone would be. When they say bpd is like an empty shell… it’s almost like she became what I feared. Like I told her my ex was always highly critical of gifts I gave him and how upset it made me. And when we were first together I kept saying to my wife how worried I was that she would hate the gifts and think me thoughtless. Lo and behold, what happened next? She starts complaining about every gift and criticising me for it.

It was too late to change what I tried to do with the photo situation… but with further changes such as putting the children in outfits my mother bought… I just started doing such things without asking permission. When she said or implied my outfit didn’t look good, I faked the confidence of saying, “I like it..” rather than, “should I get changed?” She now doesn’t challenge me on such things.

In my case getting her to understand her bpd or any part of it was futile and pointless and I have barely mentioned it since our first year together. I shudder to think of what I used to say, “you know the advice online is not to get involved with a pwbpd…” I now think I was cruel to say this. I now accept that she really is delusional and cannot possibly see things from my point of view.

In my work with pre-school and SEN and autistic children, we have to assert what we expect from them… you have to pretend you believe they can and will comply, otherwise you have no hope. With my wife, I have finally unlocked something similar. I was at the shop earlier and suddenly started panicking about what I was buying and whether she would like it. But I knew that I just had to come home and present the items, “here’s what I got” without handing her the panic or anxiety I felt. She was fine. I suspect if I had shown any nervousness she would have “attacked”.

Along with this, if I’m starting to feel I’m struggling mentally at all, I remind myself of how far I have come. I play the piano to calm myself. My wife forbid this for years because she was jealous (by her own admission) saying it’s not fair that I can do that and she can’t. But she’s used to it now.

Oh and also. The seed has sprouted and I actually picked up my daughter from nursery one day last week. It was at my wife’s request which is a massive step for her. My daughter gave me the biggest hug and I was so happy and also it was nice as my wife didn’t need to know that as she would have felt jealous (again she admits to this).

[thankful person]

I also forgot to mention, that I too displayed bpd symptoms as a child and teen and up to recently in this relationship. Feeling the world was against me, depressed and suicidal with self harm/self neglect tendencies, crippling low self-esteem, extreme anger and difficulty regulating emotions.

I was bullied at school but my home life wasn’t that tumultuous. But my Dad was the son of two divorced alcoholics who had a rocky relationship. I was always aware that he was emotionally dysregulated and my mother was his caretaker (she still is). I think his mother had bpd too. She attempted suicide on many occasions and my Dad did once a few years ago but he is very sick now with Parkinson’s disease. I feel like his body went into shock from all the stress and anxiety he felt on a daily basis.

My first daughter was born in 2019 when I was 41. It was finally time to pull myself together and grow up. And I have done. That’s the difference between my wife and me. Whilst she has become more mature in many ways… she still displays jealousy over her own children and their relationship with me. Rages in front of them (nothing like she used to since I learnt to calm her)… I am determined to be a good role model and I have changed for them.

[SaltyDawg]

NotWendy,

Statistically a child is 5x more likely to have BPD when a one or both parents have it.  Therefore, the prudent thing is to keep one's eyes open for BPD like behavior and address it ASAP, if and when it happens.  My son is seeing an individual therapist [who is licensed], for anger management and other issues.  We shifted treatment when I became aware of my wife's undiagnosed BPD -- this has led to acceleration of positive response in my son.  It has also helped with my wife's anger management issues.  While this would circumstantially indicate a correlation, I am also aware that it could be something else.  However, if the new management works -- don't fix it.

My son also has splitting episodes, without rage where everything I do is either 'coolest dad in the world,' or 'the worst dad ever', nothing in between.  However, when he doesn't get his way -- some of the time he will repeat over and over again in a cool calm voice [this usually works with his mom when he 'wears her down', but not me], when my son does or doesn't want [to do] something -- he cannot compromise [neither can my wife --  it all or nothing thinking for both of them] and sees it as all black and cannot accept a perceived negative answer along with the explanation given.  Some times he will slowly work himself up to a rage [kind of normal non BPD behavior], other times he will rage right away [BPD-like, 0-100% in under a second].  I am hoping that this a learned behavior [as he is pre-pubescent]; however, I am treating it as though it is not and will stop explaining after I explain it a second time, when he is splitting, but not raging [I used to be a broken record player and JADE after each request of the same thing he makes of me].  Usually try to isolate him in by staying in a car in the parking lot, or his room at the house until he calms down.

When my wife isn't splitting, we are a united front in parenting so the end outcome for my son is better than for my wife.  However, when there is splitting with my wife, there is triangulation which is exploited by either or both my wife and/or son -- this sucks.  Daughter avoids conflict at all costs as she is the caretaker in this dynamic.

When splitting or distracted, my wife is inconsistent with limits [so, my son gravitates towards her]; however, I try to be consistent [he shies away when he doesn't get what he wants].  I do use screen time as a reward, and if he wants more than baseline he needs to earn it with good behavior.  However, it is taken away with bad behavior.  Baseline is that he gets 45 minutes on each device [Nintendo Switch, Tablet/TV - 1.5 hours as baseline] - baseline for my daughter is unlimited - but she typically uses less screen time than my son.  However, excessive screen time is a trigger for him [> 3hrs], as is no screen time is also a trigger for him -- for him screen time is his desired 'love currency'.  We, as parents, will redirect to reading paper books (he is an avid reader) as he has trouble self-soothing playing by himself - he has a strong desire for constant attention.  Good behavior is rewarded, bad behavior is punished.  Since there are so many cycles of this, long term punishments are out of the question [max punishment is no screen time for the next day only - anything beyond that is unmanageable].  However, long term rewards are being utilized as a learning experience or a teaching moment [learn to save up for something].

With regards to "Be very careful about punishing him for not tolerating abusive behavior from his mother."  I agree completely.  I will reward him, and compliment him [fist bump/high five with "good job"] when he uses the "Do not JADE" tool when she is splitting and successfully diffuses the situation -- if he doesn't the punishment is meted out by my wife's actions against him, which is upsetting to him.  However, he hates it when I use "do not JADE" on him - as he has learned to recognize it.  When he is upset with me, I ask him to use that tool on me [to get him to 'shut up'] -- it doesn't work.  My wife is triangulating to get it banned from the family dynamic, as she too doesn't like it, until her uncompromising will is done by the person whom she desires to do something.  As our daughter is a non-confrontational caretaker, she will do whatever my wife wants, no matter how much she doesn't want to do it, or how it negatively impacts her.  Whereas I will do anything reasonable, but pushback on the unreasonable.  My son, unless it is to his liking he will pushback no matter what. 

Contrary to your assumption, my son gets most angry when he doesn't get his way.  Whether this is from me, or my wife, that matters not.  That said, my son is a 'momma's boy' and gravitate towards her for both good and bad.

I agree with the tool analogy.  My wife's primary tools in this analogy is a hammer, it can either be used to build something up [gently tapping in nails], or destroy it [using it with force to break something] -- she is set in her ways.  However, my son, is still young, and still developing, and is not set in his ways - and is more self-aware of his issues than my wife is of hers.  One of my jobs as a parent, is to equip him with a variety of tools so he can manage high conflict personalities that he will encounter.  BTW, a wrench can also be used just as destructively as a hammer, in addition to tightening/loosening bolts.  It all depends on how one uses the tool, or weaponizing it.  Also, putting two tools together like using a hammer on a wrench to free up a frozen bolt, can also be beneficial, if the bolt comes out.  However, if the bolt head breaks off which actually makes the situation worse, then a cutting torch has to be utilized to destructively melt the remainder of the bolt out, and replace it with a new one...  Most tools can be used either constructively [good] or destructively [evil] - and that is the conundrum of tools as my wife perceive the "do not JADE" tool as evil and is trying to convince my son of the same, as both of them thrive on conflict, irrational or not.

-----

Thankful Person,

   Thank you for your insight. 

   I too have seen the run away as fast as you can answers [and received that "answer" from both my wife's T (2nd hand), and directly from our couple's T], and if there were no children involved, I would whole heartedly agree with that answer, and I had already "been there / done that" with a previous uNPDso who chose to be unfaithful not once, but twice in the late 1990's.

   However, as children are involved, that is not a morally correct choice for me.

   I agree reasoning with JADE is not the thing to do when they are splitting and/or raging [wife and son] and is extremely counter-productive; however, when they are baseline it is productive until triggered.  However, I do find JADEing with my 15yo daughter to be exceptionally productive; however, she is the caretaker in this dynamic.

   For the first five years, I too was sucked in with the love and adoration, and it blinded me to the warning flags that I should have seen, but chose to ignore with the continual mind bending sex that she and I we were enjoying and stopped 'cold turkey' the moment we found out that we were pregnant -- it was either too much [every day we were together, she usually initiated], or too little [7x the following decade, less than once per year] -- it sure seemed like it was all or nothing, and that went for other aspects too.

   With my wife, I do "plant seeds" [to mentally prepare her] and then "just do it" -- its a new tool for me, and it works reasonably well with occasional blow up.

   You also mention "When they say bpd is like an empty shell…", I experience that in a much different way.  I would call it 'parroting' or 'chameleon' in my case, where she would take my mannerisms [good and bad] and parrot them back to me, or change herself to conform what I was expecting when splitting in a good way, or doing the exact opposite [by doing what I detested] when splitting in a bad way.

   I do like what you said about "we have to assert what we expect from them… you have to pretend you believe they can and will comply, otherwise you have no hope. With my wife, I have finally unlocked something similar." -- I will definitely want to explore that, it sounds very interesting.  Do you have any resources [books/videos/etc.] so I can learn more?

   Like your wife has expressed a displeasure of you playing the piano and was jealous of an ability you had that she didn't, mine doesn't like me being creative on the computer [one set of my hobbies is photography/videography], and she is jealous of it since it takes time away from her where I could be doing her never ending 'honey do list'.  I will commit up to four hours a day for her list [average], but the rest needs to be on other things - such as child care, spending quality time with her [being her work slave is not quality time for me] and self care.  This is her biggest sticking point with me.

   The way I calm myself, is riding an e-bike and/or hiking in nature.  I live in the perfect area for one, two-lane blacktop, rolling hills, covered bridges, mountain fire roads - road racing [think Tour-de-France] and mountain biking on single track dirt/rock - best of both worlds.  I live next to two state parks, one minor national park, and 50 square miles of pristine natural areas.  My wife grew up here all of her life, and she didn't even know of the areas I have discovered in my exploration of the areas.

   Thank you for sharing that you also had BPD like symptoms.  I too thought I had them; however, I had to sort out what was being projected on me, what was being transferred to me by my wife, and worst yet was a significant amount of countertransference from our couple's T that was identified by my individual T who believed without verification all of the bad things my wife was saying about me when I was on the BLACk side of splitting - as a result my self-esteem took a major hit.  I still do have a few symptoms, with the biggest one is large fear of abandonment that gets triggered by my wife's divorce & suicide threats/attempts.  I also have had two failed relationships which I think is more from being a caretaker than potentially being a BPD as it is also a symptom of the caretaker.  I would like to think myself as a selfless person, so I gave of myself until I couldn't give any more, and that was not enough for my wife.  My self-care took a big hit.  If there is any one thing that has been most impactful to me, is that I needed to do self-care, and I was failing at that -- now that I am doing it, my depression has moderated; however I still have mild depression, but who wouldn't be under similar circumstances and I feel better than I have in a long time.

   

[Notwendy]

I agree, it's good to keep an eye on your son, and it's good he is seeing a therapist.

As our daughter is a non-confrontational caretaker, she will do whatever my wife wants, no matter how much she doesn't want to do it, or how it negatively impacts her.  Whereas I will do anything reasonable, but pushback on the unreasonable.  My son, unless it is to his liking he will pushback no matter what.

I have gone back and forth between being a caretaker to my BPD mother and opposing her but neither role is desirable. Probably the best you can do is to mitigate the situation as much as possible, and it seems you are doing that.