How should I handle what seems to be an attempt to manipulate?

[who_knows11]

Last night I snapped emotionally when my wife was confronting me about "my problems" again.  I typically am very much in control of my emotions and stay very reserved and quiet, but this time I just couldn't.  Multiple late, late nights of arguing and the frustration of not being able to accomplish anything during them just took all my restraint away.  I walked out and drove around town the first time then later I was just visibly frazzled and openly mad and frustrated when trying to talk. 

Here's the weird part.  She typically is out of control in the arguments.  Yelling, screaming, cussing me, beating and banging on things, sometimes throwing things.  At the start of this episode before I walked out she slammed a bag of chips she was eating and it exploded in the living room as she was yelling.  That's when I lost it. I stood up and threw the remote onto the floor and left.  When she started again at 11:30 when I told her I was going to bed, I couldn't suppress my frustration and anger and it manifested in my speech and behavior.  It was all verbal.  My tone was erratic and more harsh than normal. I felt like punching a hole in the walls but doubt I could ever be in a place to lack enough restraint to stop myself from doing so.  So it was all noises, clinched fists, grunts, heavy breathing, etc.  As soon as she knew I was at that point she became the most calm and rational person I have ever seen her be in an argument.  No yelling, no crying, no cussing.  She would mention though, "do you see how you are acting right now?"  This is not typical behavior for her, but she knew I had snapped and seemed to be wanting to watch me spiral to have something to hold against me.  Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, but that's how it felt.  I even brought that up but really got nothing out of it.

I eventually told her that at 1:00 I was going to be which gave us about 20 more min to "discuss".  From that point on I began calming down.  Became very quiet and reserved like normal.  By 1:00 she was slowly merging back to her normal self.  I could see the emotion rebuilding.  At 1:01 she made a smart remark about keeping me up past my time limit and walked away so I went to bed.  At 2:30 she wakes me up and asks me to come back to the living room.  This time it's a completely different version.  She is crying and telling me that she is just damaged and broken and doesn't know how to fix it.  Suddenly it's her fault for everything even though I know she doesn't believe that.  Within that session she resumes the yelling and screaming and cussing me.  I remained my normal quiet self. 

I have read about this behavior in all the BPD and NPD research and reading I have done, but I have never experienced it to this level.  I also have no idea how to handle it.  Does anyone have any advice for what to do in these situations?

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[Cat Familiar]

It’s not unusual for the *non* partner to lose control during an argument. That’s why we say Don’t JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) when a BPD partner is upset; it only makes things worse.

Why she suddenly got calm and rational when you lost your calmness and rationality—you inadvertently validated her upset emotions and showed her she was not the only one out of control. Again, this is not unusual. People with BPD feel extreme shame and for that moment, she could feel superior to you.

What have the arguments been about?

[waverider]

This is common, and also potentially compounding for you. Once you have experienced this it is not unusual for it to repeat , almost like you have predetermined your own trigger points, which she will discover and you will almost be waiting for her to hit (here we go again syndrome). It is almost like once you have boarded the crazy train she is validated and no longer the odd one out and this acts like a tonic to defuse her. Her off ramp then becomes can "we" say sorry and work on getting on better, regardless of her being the aggressor. She will change nothing going forward and you will be guilt ridden. This breeds resentment, and further priming for a repeat short fuse along with high anxiety and stress levels

You are probably already feeling like you somehow have failed and hate yourself for it. Each time it happens it will just reinforce this. It is not unrealistic to seek external help for this. Do not keep this to yourself. A real concern is the neighbourhood hears you as the late night ranting and raver, as obviously you only react when at boiling point. Then if a domestic situation occurs the fingers will be pointed squarely at you

[waverider]

People with BPD feel extreme shame and for that moment, she could feel superior to you.

I see examples of this all the time. The pwBPD "gets over it" quickly. They dont really, they just file it away without dealing with the emotions and consequences, and learn nothing. This gives them the moral ground of being "adult" about it.

The non is left to heal from the hurt and pain and withdraws, often with resentment. Kind of like grieving. The pwBPD see this as bearing "childish grudges" ergo the pwBPD is feeling superior and not the one with issues.

Any apologies made are not a true repentment but rather to receive an absolution for blame, and hence must be acknowledged as not their fault or understandable. This leaves the door open for a rinse repeat.

[who_knows11]

It’s not unusual for the *non* partner to lose control during an argument. That’s why we say Don’t JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) when a BPD partner is upset; it only makes things worse.

Why she suddenly got calm and rational when you lost your calmness and rationality—you inadvertently validated her upset emotions and showed her she was not the only one out of control. Again, this is not unusual. People with BPD feel extreme shame and for that moment, she could feel superior to you.

What have the arguments been about?

That makes sense.  That part didn't surprise me as much as the second reaction once I set my limit and went to bed.  She could tell I was back in control and done with the argument.  Then all of a sudden she was crying about how damaged she knew she was.  Poor, pitiful her all over again.  So much so she stated she didn't have a desire to be alive anymore.  That was a 180 from the calmness but off on a different tangent than the normal rage.

The arguments are always the same.  I don't love her anymore, don't care about her or her feelings, am not doing the things a husband should do for his wife, etc.  Admittedly, I have things to work on, and some of what she says is true.  I reached a point of resentment toward her, long before knowing anything of BPD, that caused some changes in behavior toward her.  I'm working on those things.  I'm doing a lot of self work which she also doesn't like.  She feels that I should be working on me and her before working on myself.  I don't feel that I can fix things between us until I have rectified some of my own internal issues.  The arguments are usually a circle of all those things.

For what it's worth, she now knows that I believe she has a personality disorder.  She has went through this stage of wanting to go through all my personal stuff.  Phone, email, etc.  I let her without fight because there is nothing to hide.  While going through my phone she went through my kindle app and saw my "Walking on Eggshells" book about dealing with BPD.  She hasn't made anything of it so far, but I know it is only a matter of time before that blow up happens

[who_knows11]

This is common, and also potentially compounding for you. Once you have experienced this it is not unusual for it to repeat , almost like you have predetermined your own trigger points, which she will discover and you will almost be waiting for her to hit (here we go again syndrome). It is almost like once you have boarded the crazy train she is validated and no longer the odd one out and this acts like a tonic to defuse her. Her off ramp then becomes can "we" say sorry and work on getting on better, regardless of her being the aggressor. She will change nothing going forward and you will be guilt ridden. This breeds resentment, and further priming for a repeat short fuse along with high anxiety and stress levels

You are probably already feeling like you somehow have failed and hate yourself for it. Each time it happens it will just reinforce this. It is not unrealistic to seek external help for this. Do not keep this to yourself. A real concern is the neighbourhood hears you as the late night ranting and raver, as obviously you only react when at boiling point. Then if a domestic situation occurs the fingers will be pointed squarely at you

I hope and believe that I have passed the point of self doubt as a result of all that is happening.  I actually feel like this whole ordeal has helped me to realize things that needed to change back before it all started.  I think I'm slowly making those changes, although I'm not certain she is real happy about them.  My self awareness and self esteem are not in trouble, at least not from my perspective.  I'm now just trying to figure out to deal with all the extremes and variations or if it's even possible/worth it to do so.  I appreciate your insight as well.

Also as far as a domestic issue, I was not to that point.  I left the house and drove around the first time to calm down.  The second time it was more non verbal components making me look like a crazy man than anything haha I'd never touch her or do anything that would give any impression of violence.  It was total frustration that I was dealing with.  Even if we had neighbors close enough to hear she would be the only one in danger of domestic trouble.  I've never allowed anyone the power to cause me to lose it to the level that I did something that law enforcement would have to handle

[JP1214]

I have no advice but I very much relate to this. Just today my BPDh starting going over the laundry list of all the things that are wrong with me,  how I’ve hurt him, how he’s never been with someone or known someone who has treated him this way, etc. I am also typically a very calm and composed person. My husband, himself, has even said to other people that I am one of the most even keeled people he has ever known. I have definitely become much angrier (internally) because of all the issues that all of is “non” partners deal with and how taxing it is.

Anyway, amidst his  20 minute long rant of all MY problems that need to be fixed, he says “and honestly, what scares me is that I would not be surprised at all if I came home to find you being arrested for beating some chick’s **”.  Ummm…Whaaaat?? This coming from the man who literally has been in SOO many fist fights with other people (not since we’ve been together), literally loses his mind when he gets triggered and YELLS at the top of his lungs, sometimes so loud that he’s hurt his voice, has punched multiple holes in our walls and doors, and literally smashed some of our furniture. But he has never been violent with me, other than yelling. And because I occasionally lose my cool, I’m a scary violent, rage driven person? And by lose my cool, I mean clenching my jaw, taking a deep sigh or grunt of frustration, or raising my voice slightly above normal talking volume (I’ve only actually yelled at him maybe 3 times in 4 years of marriage). I have never been in a fist fight with anyone (except siblings when we were kids). And by all accounts I am an upstanding citizen.

I’m just wondering if he actually believes that? Or is he just projecting? And it’s not the first time he’s told me he’s worried about my “rage” and how angry I am. And of course he’s “never met a woman with as much rage” as I have…. And he used to run with a pretty rough crowd. At moments like that I’m just thinking this is un-Freaking-believable. How do you deal with that? By just not JADE-ing?

[Tupla Sport]

I used to experience this in my r/s when my ex moved in with me. We would reach a dead-end in a fight, I would snap and get super mad, she would snap out of it and suddenly be super attentive for my problems. More attentive than she ever was.

It didn't usually feel like an attempt at manipulation to me but more like a natural flip of the switch for her. Like I had met her at her level.

Though this at some point devolved into her sticking to her guns to the point of threatening me with police as I got madder and madder and she would not relent. She started recording me and my fuming with her phone. At some point I think we started play-breaking up to cool the situation.

[who_knows11]

I have no advice but I very much relate to this. Just today my BPDh starting going over the laundry list of all the things that are wrong with me,  how I’ve hurt him, how he’s never been with someone or known someone who has treated him this way, etc. I am also typically a very calm and composed person. My husband, himself, has even said to other people that I am one of the most even keeled people he has ever known. I have definitely become much angrier (internally) because of all the issues that all of is “non” partners deal with and how taxing it is.

Anyway, amidst his  20 minute long rant of all MY problems that need to be fixed, he says “and honestly, what scares me is that I would not be surprised at all if I came home to find you being arrested for beating some chick’s **”.  Ummm…Whaaaat?? This coming from the man who literally has been in SOO many fist fights with other people (not since we’ve been together), literally loses his mind when he gets triggered and YELLS at the top of his lungs, sometimes so loud that he’s hurt his voice, has punched multiple holes in our walls and doors, and literally smashed some of our furniture. But he has never been violent with me, other than yelling. And because I occasionally lose my cool, I’m a scary violent, rage driven person? And by lose my cool, I mean clenching my jaw, taking a deep sigh or grunt of frustration, or raising my voice slightly above normal talking volume (I’ve only actually yelled at him maybe 3 times in 4 years of marriage). I have never been in a fist fight with anyone (except siblings when we were kids). And by all accounts I am an upstanding citizen.

I’m just wondering if he actually believes that? Or is he just projecting? And it’s not the first time he’s told me he’s worried about my “rage” and how angry I am. And of course he’s “never met a woman with as much rage” as I have…. And he used to run with a pretty rough crowd. At moments like that I’m just thinking this is un-Freaking-believable. How do you deal with that? By just not JADE-ing?

Yeah this sounds eerily similar.  At this point I basically don't handle it.  I shut down and just stop speaking.  Not like the silent treatment because I will respond to her but I just don't openly engage.  And as far as JADE-ing, I suck at that when all the talk being thrown at you is blatantly invalid feel that all I can do is defend.  That or just disengage

[who_knows11]

I used to experience this in my r/s when my ex moved in with me. We would reach a dead-end in a fight, I would snap and get super mad, she would snap out of it and suddenly be super attentive for my problems. More attentive than she ever was.

It didn't usually feel like an attempt at manipulation to me but more like a natural flip of the switch for her. Like I had met her at her level.

Though this at some point devolved into her sticking to her guns to the point of threatening me with police as I got madder and madder and she would not relent. She started recording me and my fuming with her phone. At some point I think we started play-breaking up to cool the situation.

Mine has recorded many times as well.  All you hear is about 2 hours of her talking non stop with maybe 10 words from myself in the entire 2 hour span.  The part that seemed more manipulative to me was the crying and talking about being damaged and knowing there was something wrong with her that occurred after I reached the point of no longer participating in the confrontation.  It just seemed like that was the next way to try to get me to re-engage.  She has admitted that she says things sometimes just to try to get specific reactions from me.  Not necessarily to get me to snap in a mad way but just whatever reaction she wants to see at the time.

[waverider]

She wants you abord the crazy train, as that would normalize it into a normal train in her mind

[SaltyDawg]

Mine has recorded many times as well.

Well, mine taunted me to record her during her crazy phases.  Initially I didn't do that; however, as I am trying to regain some of the enormous amount of control that I have lost, she has become more crazy, and newer conventional style BPD traits are emerging [physical projection of violence, since she has already been reported for battery by our former couple's T] and a new one of threating false allegations of child abuse.

The threat that she made doesn't make any sense, but here it is:  She threatened to report me for child abuse, for an incident that occurred several years ago in an elementary school, and was supposedly witnessed by the school principle, and several teachers [all of whom are obligated by law to report any kind of abuse].  Listening to my wife, you would think I would have no less than half a dozen complaints of child abuse lodged against me. 

Granted, my child was misbehaving by creating a scene by not wanting to leave an after school function, I think he was in 2nd grade at the time, and I had to escort my child out of the cafeteria to the car by their hand under their protest.  The alternative, was to pick up the child, which would have been even more physical and carry them out to the car as they were not following instruction.  Yes, the teachers and principle were looking at me, as the child was having a tantrum, so it did draw attention.  However, none of the teachers or principle made any comment.  Nor was I visited, nor called by CPS after this and a handful of similar altercations (where my wife was not present).  Yes, my child is currently in therapy for anger management issues hopefully as a learned behavior [which can be unlearned] from my uBPDw rather than starting to get symptoms of being borderline [irrational rages and splitting for now].

I am going to paraphrase a quote from Randi Kreger's book the following:

Signs That You Need Help Right Now...

...Seek immediate personal or professional support if your loved one does (or has already done) any of the following:

Threatens violence or physical action; or puts a violent hand on you, even if it doesn't hurt too bad; or destroys objects; or makes you feel physically unsafe in any way.
 
Takes, or threatens to take, the children from you.
 
Makes, or threatens to make, false accusations of child abuse against you.
 
Lies to a police officer about something you didn't do to get you arrested or in legal trouble.

Expects you to take part in an illegal action.

Puts you or your family in harm's way.

Steals money from you, or puts you or your family at financial risk.

Routinely threatens divorce. (If they straightforwardly tell you that they no longer wish to be with you, do not hang on. Begin planning now for a divorce or separation. And do not be surprised if they blame you for instigating the breakup.)

Also, threatening and/or attempting suicide which was after the divorce threat is also on that list.

For suicide threats/attempts, call 911 [or your country's emergency number, such as 000, or 999], and if you have the presence of mind to record it if you can.

If any of the above happens in your relationship [most of those have happened in mine, YOU NEED TO RECORD, to protect your own $$!  It is a pain in the $$ to do and a necessary evil.  If my wife made the threat in bold above, this implies that her irrational mind is also capable of the ones in italics, which she has not yet done.

If there is no recording of it, it is your word, against theirs.  If they are a crazy female [statistically 60-80% of them are], most legal jurisdictions in the US will side with the female.  In most jurisdictions, contrary to what the law states, you will be considered guilty, until proven innocent -- if you record, you will be proven innocent.

Whatever you do, DO NOT TOUCH your pwBPD, even if they are blocking your way.  Just video it, and try not to start any JADE.  Anything that you record can and will be used against you.  If there is nothing to record, then there is nothing that can be used against you.  Let them scream, let them throw their raging tantrum, let them be irrational, let them lie.  IF they lie about something on the list above -- this will go contrary to what you have been told on this forum -- deliberately JADE, in a cool, calm, and collected voice with truthful, logical reasoning -- do this only once and then do not JADE.  This serves two purposes, the court will see how your pwBPD responds when she makes a lie [to protect your $$]; however, this will also likely set off your pwBPD even more [court rooms love drama] and it will only improve your case should your pwBPD divorce you with these false threats -- yes this is manipulation [for the greater good]; however, you need to fight fire with fire, manipulation with manipulation; however, do limit it keeping in mind the love of your children [you don't want to be seen as attacking their parent], love of yourself [by not putting up with this behavior], and the love of your pwBPD who is currently attacking you physically and or emotionally.  Do not share this with anyone, unless you are going to court [being charged with domestic violence, child abuse, and/or divorce proceedings] -- then and only then share it with your attorney [or public defender if you can't afford one] who will handle the recording/information contained in your defense.

Now how to covertly record your pwBPD while they are doing anything on the above list.  Click the link of my quote from another thread:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=354091.new#new or the link in the blank quote below.

[Manic Miner]

Yeah, I too can relate a lot in this. Same kind of fights, boarding the crazy train, validation, it's not her, we are all in this, I should work on myself, I don't love her, respect nor treat well, etc etc.

Frankly, yes, both parties are involved. When we, nons - snap, we tend to say hurtful things, be angry and yell. If anything, we are onboard the train going nowhere. And yes we have to work on ourselves, on our own issues and behaviour.

Here's the catch. There is a certain amount of how much each person can take and endure the blame. When that threshold is long passed and you cannot reason in a sane, logical ways, it's very easy to snap in those conditions. It's entirely normal for humans to react this way. It's also normal to have issues, weaknesses and work on yourself. There is no such thing as being perfect. Being happy, joyful, accepting and at peace with yourself and your surroundings is the closest you can get.

The problem then is twofold - pwBPD will use normal human weaknesses as a weapon, a token for excuse, 'aha! you also did it!' blame game, shifting and almost validating the entire drama they started and amplified. They will cherrypick what they need for their own validation and discard the rest. It's not about you, after all.

Second, you will feel worse as you will notice that not only you didn't fix anything or haven't been heard, you have now 'exposed' your weak cards and are even in a deeper mess than before.

Learning tools and new ways to have a fruitful discussion with them is not something that is natural or even spontaneous. It needs to be learned and even then it doesn't mean it will work. Not all the time anyway.

[SaltyDawg]

MM,

  I agree with you.  However, different people have different thresholds before they "react", and respond differently.  It is called 'reactive abuse', and I am guilty of yelling back for a few minutes (only to get her to stop) after being yelled at for hours (up to just over 7 hours).  Then she has the audacity of calling me lazy (by being unproductive for those hours where she is yelling at me) -- go figure.

  While I am not law enforcement, I have done training with law enforcement which trains their people by telling them if that they find themselves in such a situation where their spouse is starting a conflict, the best course of action is no action, to totally ignore that person.  It does two things, it prevents you from being reactive and doing something stupid (such as pushing her out the way so you can go somewhere) and the mere fact you are ignoring them (by not JADEing), with the added bonus [police academy perspective] that this really pisses them [pwBPD] off -  kind of a sick retributive dance -- I am guilty of ignoring them, but take no joy in doing that.  Secondarily, it reduces the chance of your spouse from something stupid, like hitting you -- it keeps them out of legal trouble as well.

   My uPBDw, brings me to counseling to fix me.  She manipulated our couple's T. and convinced the T that I need to engage her in normal conversation when she becomes upset *BIG MISTAKE*, so instead of ignoring her and the issue would quickly fade away [albeit unresolved], I engaged in JADE, upon the advice of our couple's T, in a normal tone of voice which results in her raging at me for hours on end.

   With regards to the 'cherry-pick' comment while might be true, or hold some kernel of truth, this 'truth' distorts the pwBPD's emotional lens [a cognitive distortion] and becomes something unrecognizable -- take for instance the false distortion of the threat of reporting me child abuse that I recounted in my previous post.  Yes there was conflict; however, if was distorted, in my pwBPD's mind to the point where in her mind she actually believed I committed child abuse [and would probably pass a lie-detector test, if allowed - and she has taunted me to record these episodes, since in her mind she is correct and I am wrong] by me escorting my child to the car against his will; however, to the sane people around me did not report me for child abuse, as I didn't do child abuse [in the eyes of the educators who are mandated by law to report abuse], but was managing a difficult child which drew the attention of educators, and the anxiety of my wife became a cognitive distortion.  In my wife's mind, since I didn't let the child do what he wanted [true], I was being abusive [distortion], by escorting him to the car [true].  This is how a truth becomes distorted [manipulated] into a false allegation of a pwBPD or other type of cognitive dysfunctional person.

[SilverSwan]

That sounds familiar.  My pwpbd husband seems to be sort of "satisfied" when a situation makes him look more 'elevated' than me.   If he badgers me into yelling, then he has the evidence he needs to feel not so bad about himself. He has a feild day focusing on my inability to remain neutral at all times. 
I forgot to turn off the dog nanny video cam once after getting home and it captured one of our fights. It was absolutely horrifying to watch it back. I thought I could see his anxiety diminishing as he succeeded in badgering me to tears. It looked like he NEEDED to lower my humanity so that he could feel better about himself.  If he doesn't succeed in upsetting me he goes to suicide talk and cutting himself.  Its heartbreaking.  Ive seen so many therapists about this and they all say that I will find more peace when I stop expecting an unwell person to act well.   
Its hard to always be a caregiver. Caregivers have limits too.

[SaltyDawg]

SilverSwan,

   Keep the nanny cam video (save it to a portable hard drive) -- keep the nanny cam on [unless he notices it].  In case it gets worse [e.g. divorce], you need evidence supporting your side (I have written other threads on documenting) -- if, this goes to the attorneys it will save a bit of $$$'s if you do that - and it will support your side as well. 

   I hope and pray for the best, but plan for the worst.  Hopefully you will never have to use that video.  No cutting with my wife, but there have been a half dozen suicide attempts and countless threats for divorce -- it is very much heartbreaking, and up until recently I had no clue [other than ignore it] as to what to do about it.

   With regards to 'act well' -- here is my take on it, that another user said:

If they can control themselves in public, then they have the capacity to do so in private too, and the only reason they do not is because they don't have to. It's really as simple as that.

   Find a therapist that specializes in BPD, if you can't -- then find one that deals with 'high conflict' relationships - that what is supposed to start tomorrow.