Thoughts on children's emotions as the child of a BPD parent in a sick society

[Riv3rW0lf]

This morning, I wanted to use a bit of my time to put some thoughts together about being a parent in today's culture, and an adult child of a borderline mother. I've discovered the work of Gabor Maté recently (thanks to Couscous and my stepmother), and it's been incredibly validating listening to his interviews.

Recently, I was reading the comments on a Youtube video where Maté critics Jordan Peterson's approach to handle the tantrums of a 2 years old i.e., sitting them in a stairway or in their room, and telling them they need to get their emotions under control to be welcome in the group again. To Maté, this is basically leading to self-repression instead of self-regulation, as we are unwillingly teaching the child that their authentic self is not welcome. You cannot show anger, you cannot show sadness, else you will be isolated until you are calm and happy again.

This was an eye opener for me. Of course, because this is Jordan Peterson being criticized, some commenters felt the need to say Maté had a low intellect and couldn't hold a candle to Peterson, it got nasty. And I decided to intervene. And learned that for many people in today's culture : emotional validation leads to children being self-centered and entitled.

For many people, emotional validation is the same as permissiveness.

We are emotional mammals that have gotten very uncomfortable with displays of emotions... when emotions are the root of our guts feelings, of everything we are. We need them to understand ourselves.

I find it so hard to navigate everyone's needs in my household. I am taking care of myself now more than ever, and got good at self-regulating. I always made it a point to listen to my daughter, to validate her emotions. It did happen however when I had to leave her alone, not because I wanted to, but because my presence truly did not seem to help her. She would push me away and scream harder, and it simply wouldn't stop. So I'd made sure she was in a safe place and I'd leave the door open, I'd tell her I love her and would be there whenever she needs me. That I'd be waiting for her in the living room whenever she was ready. I think, overall, I showed up for her, despite the "isolation".

Now she is 4, and I don't see a self-centered child, I see a child who actually has strong empathy toward others... Yet my husband doesn't seem to grasp it. He doesn't tolerate that she talks back. And I don't get it. Why can't she talk back? What is it that feels so threatening when a child states her frustration to not get the hot chocolate she crave (oddly specific, right?). I spent my morning having to hold my husband in line because he wanted to scream at our 4 years old because she was "being difficult". He turned on her, saying she was entitled, disrespectful, nasty things that aren't true most of the time. She was frustrated and acting it out.

Am I raising an entitled child because I listen to her? Really? She didn't get her freaking hot chocolate; she ate her toast and her egg; she said, without me asking for it, that she was sorry for telling me I was mean; and she left after a big hug and a "good day mommy". I do feel it helped her that I stayed regulated, that I recognized her anger, but didn't give in to her request. I've been showing up consistently for her for the past week, and our relationship is very strong. She confides a lot in me. Yet, I keep being told by everyone that I am raising a self-centered, narcissistic child.

My husband is growing more and more impatient toward me because of how different we want to handle things. He keeps telling me : she will have to get in line or he will blow up! ... What. the. hell. is. his. problem. Doesn't he see she put the table, clean her playroom, helps around, is very patient... It's like we are not parenting the same child!

It pains me not to be able to talk about it with other parents. One of my neighbors has a freacking lock on her child's bedroom door, to lock him up when he acts out. The little man barely speaks at 2 years old and everytime I see him, he looks sad and lost.

It truly makes me sick to my stomach.

Emotions were dangerous for me as well growing up. Learning to feel them, to accept them, to process them instead of repressing them has been key to me being able to show up for my children. And I imagine this was hard for all of you who were raised by a borderline parent.

...

In my daughter's classroom, they have a system where, if you are happy, you get a privilege, and if you are angry, you are "put into the stormy cloud and don't get a privilege"... The whole thing feels off. They keep saying it's ok to be angry, but then you lose the right to move on the rainbow toward the privilege box. Schools had to develop system to teach kids about emotional regulation because the parents won't do it at home, but emotional regulation became a "carrot-stick" approach. It seems wrong...

My daughter has been pretending to be her teacher, and if I raise my voice a bit to keep, say, my son to hit me, my daughter gets up and "moves me toward the cloud". Why would a child be punished because he raised his voice? Don't we all raise our voices sometimes? If the child is not hitting, why are any display of "negative emotions" bad?

The more I work on myself, the more I realize my mother is not the only one who is mentally ill... It feels like the whole of society is... And today, I worry for our future as a specie.

I needed to get it out...

[Notwendy]

I think how we are parented influences how we parent. I also think culturally, we are still harder on boys. My H was raised with that "big boys don't cry" idea. He thought I was too easy on the kids but since I was the primary caregiver, he didn't really have much of a choice.

One of my fears was that my kids would feel about me the way I felt about my mother and thankfully that didn't happen- we didn't parent the same way- but it scared me still. I wanted to avoid that. I read a lot of parenting books, from all different perspectives, and looked at what interested me.

What stood out to me is that how we "discipline" can be instructional or punitive. I think people think of discipline as consequences for bad behavior. But the word comes from disciple- a student. Our role is to teach them, not punish them. So for instance if we say "I told you not to put your feet on the couch" that's an order but it doesn't teach them what do do. Instead we can say " we keep our feet on the floor when we sit on the couch" and then tell them what a good job they are doing with keeping their feet on the floor. The goal is the same  but one is punitive and one is positive.

The "don't talk back" probably came from his childhood. I heard that from my mother a lot, basically anything you say that doesn't go with her ideas is talking back. I can see this as invalidating. I didn't intervene if they talked back. It seemed normal to me. Now if they were disrespectful as teens - that is different, but I felt it was important to hear them out and reply "I hear you feel mad to not get chocolate for dinner". Usually letting them vent or distracting them was enough to let it calm down. I tried to reward good behavior more than intervene for undesirable behavior.

I think the relationship is formed over consistency and time. The one time you lose it isn't the whole of it, and you can apologize. It's when it's often and with a disordered parent - so messed up. Mostly they need a lot of love. What other's do with their kids, you don't have to do. Do what feels right for you.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I share your fears of her seeing me as I saw my mother, even though I can clearly see our relationship is much closer and completely different. So then I start feeling scared about the opposite : that I am enabling bad behavior by being too soft with my codependant behavior. But I don't think this is quite right either.

My HSP daughter woke up earlier from a nap, and she was off, like she sometimes is after a nap. My son started whining, and she was screaming and angry, and I got angry. And I heard myself and the thought hit me : "calm the f*CK down she is 4". So I stopped myself, got myself in a good place, and showed up for her, again.

What she said really hurt though...

She ended up saying something to the effect that she hated being emotional like that, because we would fight all day.

And I understand what she meant.

Prior to my therapy, prior to realizing all this, prior to learning how to master my emotions, and with a very reactive husband, it's like we were always trying to "shut her down" when she was emotional. And she is only four, and I am aware parenting is a zero sum game, but I realize that there already are some damages to how we parented her.

I'd like to believe I mostly showed up for her, but with my mother, without knowing what was happening, before therapy, it's unlikely that I actually was able to guide her through. I tried at best I could but she did end up having to calm down on her own before she could come back. And dad was often angry and unnerved because she was screaming. And I would get angry at dad because I wanted him to calm down.

Anyway... I had a talk with my husband and I think I got through.

He really has to stop getting angry at her for being emotional sometimes, and I too need to do a better job of modellinf self-regulation as opposed to the repression I learned to master. She goes through such big emotions, and has already started associating those to something bad, something that will lead to anger and rejection.

This time, I was able to show up. Thankfully.

The podcast Couscous shared about HSP children was another eye opener. The shame from the emotions, I cried a lot listening to this, it depicted my little girl perfectly. And this afternoon, she confirmed it for me... All the shame she already carries from "acting out". And I need to correct the route.

Thank God I opened my eyes and started working on myself.

And I realized too that my H was raised this way... There is NO emotion allowed in their house. It is never well received and he would be sent to his room. So... He also comes from a house of emotional neglect.

It's often unwillingly, and a result of being emotionaly blind ourselves, or from thinking this is how it has to be done, because this is how most people do it...

But damn... Hearing it from her this afternoon, hearing her sharing her own shame... Anyway...

Thankfully, like you said Notwendy, we can say sorry... And humans are resilient, in the end. Life doesn't need to be perfect either. I guess they do need to be able to cope with imperfect parents as well.

[Couscous]

Have you heard of the orchid hypothesis?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/on-the-trail-of-the-orchid-child/

[Turkish]

Good thread! I'll share what happened last weekend, and I'm not sure I did right or wrong...

Their uBPD mom asked to take her for 6 hrs to work on her Halloween costume. It kind of irked me as she had them the previous weekend and this one, but mommy wanted to spend quality time with D10.5 apart from S almost 13. I gave in. I appreciate it as I don't do arts and crafts.

D has been a Spitfire we've noticed since she was 2. She preferrs me more than her mom, rudely saying so. My ex said that D has told her, "it's because when I'm upset, you try to teach me lessons but Daddy comforts me."

D returned home after 6 hours and her session with her mom went well. I hid her laptop, and asked her if she could sweep her room entrance where she had dropped cut paper detritus and there was a plastic water bottle on the floor. 2 minute job.

"NO! I want my laptop!"

"You'll get it when you sweep and pick up, here's a bag."

"NO! I WANT MY LAPTOP!"

Fast forward a little... she was angry and took it out on our 80lb dog, squeezing her. S12 hit her, "stop hurting Nyxi!" I told her and him to stop. I told her to leave. S12 and I were watching a movie. I looked back and D10 was picking paint from the wall (to hurt the house). I told her to stop. Previously, I had told her that it was OK to be mad but that hurting others was unacceptable.

Silence and then I heard something from the kitchen. She had slammed my work laptop closed. I was  I told her, "that is how I make a living for us, never touch that! Go to your room!"

"I WANT MY LAPTOP!"

"Sweep and pick up."

"NO!"

Cue half an hour of her kicking her walls. I told her brother to let her be and not look at or interact (he triggers her sometimes).

I heard the music of a certain ice cream truck. S12 and I went to get ice cream. D was still kicking.

A little later D came out. I told her than if she wasn't tantruming that she could have had ice cream also. I told her that I'd share my Chocolate shake with her, but she said that she hated that. She kind of watched the movie with us. I said, "come here," and cuddled her on my lap for a few minutes. She was still angry, but less so.

"Can I have my laptop back?"

Sure, if you pick up and also the trash you dumped in the livingroom.

"FiNE!" <picks up>

Me: without an attitude.

"Ok..." still a little, but she did.

One of my buddies said that I shouldn't have given the laptop back

[Methuen]

Love the story Turkish  You have expectations.  She didn't meet them.  You set boundaries.  She pushed and broke them.  You held your expectations. You let her express her anger. Stayed calm (...when she was kicking).  Offered the olive branch of ice cream with you when she had (partially) calmed down.  Held your boundary of cleaning her room before she got her laptop back...which she did after she calmed down.  What did she learn?  1) She's safe to express herself. (2) You have reasonable expectations and she can meet them (even if she doesn't want to  (3) you can be trusted - because you gave the laptop back after she met your expectation.  

IMHO, you did the right thing by giving the laptop back.  If you had listened to your buddy, you could be teaching her not to trust you, because you "lied" (since the deal was you would give the laptop back when she cleaned her room).

Riv3rw0lf:

I spent my morning having to hold my husband in line because he wanted to scream at our 4 years old because she was "being difficult". He turned on her, saying she was entitled, disrespectful, nasty things that aren't true most of the time. She was frustrated and acting it out.

A few observations.  She's 4 and can't yet be expected to have emotional control.  Adults on the other hand, hopefully have the emotional tools to deal with a 4 year old (most of the time). Most 4 year olds don't yet have the vocabulary and language skills to express themselves through rational conversation, which is why they resort to acting out their frustrations.  So this is pretty typical.    

Is it possible to suggest to your H that when he is frustrated like this, he could "take a break" for a few minutes?  And if he must express his negative thoughts regarding his daughter, that he feel free to share them with you when the two of you can discuss it together, but not in front of her?

She would push me away and scream harder, and it simply wouldn't stop. So I'd made sure she was in a safe place and I'd leave the door open, I'd tell her I love her and would be there whenever she needs me. That I'd be waiting for her in the living room whenever she was ready.

This is a really great response.  

She didn't get her freaking hot chocolate; she ate her toast and her egg; she said, without me asking for it, that she was sorry for telling me I was mean; and she left after a big hug and a "good day mommy". I do feel it helped her that I stayed regulated, that I recognized her anger, but didn't give in to her request.

Absolutely! As you said, you stayed regulated - so you role modelled good emotional control.  And you didn't give in to her "demand" (with negative behaviors?) for hot chocolate.  If you did, you would be reinforcing bad behavior...but you didn't do that. Instead, you demonstrated your expectation for good behavior and maintained your own emotional control.
Also, just because someone you know is calling her entitled doesn't make it so.  After all, she didn't get the hot chocolate...

My husband is growing more and more impatient toward me because of how different we want to handle things. He keeps telling me : she will have to get in line or he will blow up! ...

Then he would be modelling the very thing he says that she must not do...

One of my neighbors has a freacking lock on her child's bedroom door, to lock him up when he acts out.

Wow.  

As for the teacher with the rainbow and the stormy cloud, I would encourage you to share your concerns with the teacher in a calm and non-threatening way.  Write out your reasons why ahead of time - point form so you can refer to them if need be.  Most teachers really care, and this person may be well-meaning, without understanding there could be negative consequences for some children.  You could share an example or short story to make your point.  Is it a preschool?  Are they ECE trained?    On the other hand, she may be able to explain her strategy in a way that makes sense to you after you hear it.  Who knows. But it would still be good for the teacher to hear your concerns.

There's something to be said for setting expectations, and then giving the child the space to learn.  They have to be allowed to make mistakes, and learn from them.  It's a natural part of the human condition...isn't it?

My HSP daughter woke up earlier from a nap, and she was off, like she sometimes is after a nap. My son started whining, and she was screaming and angry, and I got angry. And I heard myself and the thought hit me : "calm the f*CK down she is 4". So I stopped myself, got myself in a good place, and showed up for her, again.

Good for you Riv3rw0lf.   Imagine how many parents can't do this...but you can and did.

it's like we were always trying to "shut her down" when she was emotional.

Have you seen the emotion picsyms for kids?  If you are able to see her escalating in the early stages, it might be possible to sit down with her, and use the picsyms to help her express her emotions in a more healthy way.  This way she is learning to recognize her feelings, and express them to someone she trusts.  This might be a strategy to help her learn self-regulation.  Just an idea.  Different strategies work for different kids.

He really has to stop getting angry at her for being emotional sometimes

 Getting angry at her for being emotional is modelling the very behavior he's saying she must not do.  Kids generally have a temperament when they are born, but environment and nurture play a big role in how that temperament is managed and developed, for better or worse.

And I realized too that my H was raised this way... There is NO emotion allowed in their house. It is never well received and he would be sent to his room. So... He also comes from a house of emotional neglect.

 It makes sense that he parents' the way he was parented, if he believes he had great parents and never questions any parts of their parenting style.  However, most of us can see that our parents weren't perfect, and have thought about what we want to do differently.  A question: when you say there was NO emotion allowed in their house, are you referring to negative emotion like sadness or anger?  Were they allowed to express happiness and joy?  If yes, I would ask why not sadness or anger, as these are parts of the human condition.  If a pet dies, a child needs to be able to express sadness and cry.  Anger is trickier.  It depends if it is used for revenge or to hurt and punish someone, or if it becomes a motivator to change the human condition to improve something that needs improving.  IMHO, well adjusted healthy people are able to have a range of emotions, and they learn how to channel them to be their best self.  This is what we want to teach our children.  

Sometimes people are raised to believe that it's "weakness" to express sadness.  That takes effort to unlearn if that is the case.  If people are raised to believe that anger is a sign of strength, that can also take effort to unlearn.

While you and your H may not agree on all parenting styles, it is important to negotiate and put forth a united front and support each other in front of the child if possible, and also role model healthy emotional reactions.

Our son was a highly sensitive child.  He came into the world that way.  The colic started when he was about 3 weeks old, and when he outgrew that, there were an abundance of other significant challenges.  It was difficult, and we were worried.  We enrolled him in a child development preschool, got him some early childhood supports, and today he is a well adjusted successful professional with a great sense of humour, healthy friends, and a kind character.  My point is, it can get better.  It won't always be this hard.  Just because it's like this now, doesn't mean it has to stay that way. There's ages and stages.

And wow, your 4 year old said that she was sorry for telling me I was mean; and she left after a big hug and a "good day mommy". That sounds pretty spectacular to me.

You're a good mom Riv3rw0lf because you are aware, thoughtful, reflective, and loving.  

[Notwendy]

Your H grew up in a similar family dynamic as my H. We match our partners in ways and I think one way is that neither of us had role models for how to manage emotions in a functional way. His FOO showed no emotions, my FOO- out of control ones.

I think a key skill for us to learn is how to regulate our own emotions and also to role model that. You did great to realize "she's only 4". 4 year olds can act like they have BPD but that is normal for a 4 year old-  but keep in mind that this behavior can cause us to feel fear. Another difficult time is the teen age years with mood swings and hormones. We need to be able to remain calm when they feel out of control.

We think of ourselves as our children's teachers, but I think it goes both ways. We are motivated to not parent like we were parented, but we don't always know what to do- and we are challenged to learn, to do better. In a way, we re-visit our own childhoods in a loving way and this helps both them and us.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Have you heard of the orchid hypothesis?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/on-the-trail-of-the-orchid-child/

This is very interesting, Couscous.

I often felt like I was highly sensitive, even mentioned it here. I now doubt it very much. Looking at my daughter and at my mother, I think I was brought up to believe I was oversensitive, more than I actually am.

My emotions were not safe to have, so I assumed I was "too sensitive". The truth is, looking what I made it through, that I likely was lucky to be a dandelion child  

My daughter is definitely an orchid. And I think my mother was too. Out of 11 children, through a household of abuse and pedophilia, every one of them made it out with trauma, but only two became alcoholics and seemingly borderlines. Both were likely less resilient than the others, and much more sensitive.

Do you reckon that's about right? HSP would be what this article calls orchid children? Or did you understand it to be two separate things?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Good thread! I'll share what happened last weekend, and I'm not sure I did right or wrong...


One of my buddies said that I shouldn't have given the laptop back

For what it's worth, I likely would have give the laptop back too...she held her part of the bargain, so it's only fair you held yours too.

It's hard to comment on your story, as my children do not have the same age as yours.They are much younger and I reckon parenting a 4 years old and under is very different than parenting young teens.

The only thing that stand out for me is not anything you did, but that your daughter was very irritable after she came back from spending 6 hours working on her Halloween costume with her BPD mother.

Because I remember working on dresses with my own BPD mother, I would have wanted to ask her if anything happened at her mother's house.

I remember my mother wanting to teach me how to sow, but the second I touched the sewing machine, she would just tell me I was doing it all wrong and push me out. She wasn't teaching me anything other than I was bad at it and she knew better.

I would design dresses to make, wanted to learn to sow then myself, but to keep control, she would make the dress alright, but never let me actually learn. It's not that they are bad memories, but I remember feeling a bit... Out of myself, during those moments. Feeling like I couldn't do anything right, and that she wouldn't leave me any chance, so I'd build up resentment.

[Notwendy]

I think it was good that you have responsibilities for her and she can earn time on the laptop by doing them.

If I have one suggestion, it's the timing. After 6 hours of being with her BPD mother, she's likely to also be emotionally wired up. When she asked for the laptop and you said no, even if that's a reasonable request, it probably was- for her- the over the top frustration- due to being emotionally unglued already.

For adults, we have the acronym- HALT for when we are least able to manage emotional stresses. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired and probably more in that category.

One suggestion after the kids are with BPD mother is to let them cool down when they return. Give them a snack, lots of attention, let them rest. Let them know ahead of time what the chore schedule is- so they get home at 3, rest, snack, then at 5 begin dinner clean up chores. Laptop time can be part of their rest then it gets put away for chores, dinner. It's possible for your D that spending time on the laptop was a way for her to relax and cool down. It can still be earned time by doing chores earlier in the week.

That's an idea. We aren't perfect parents and learn as we go. One thing I learned is transitions can be emotional times, so right when they come home from school, or a visit with someone (or the other parent) or times when they are tired and stressed- that's the time they are least able to handle frustrations.

[Riv3rW0lf]

 
Is it possible to suggest to your H that when he is frustrated like this, he could "take a break" for a few minutes?  And if he must express his negative thoughts regarding his daughter, that he feel free to share them with you when the two of you can discuss it together, but not in front of her?

Yes, this is pretty much what I am going for now, but it seldom happens that he actually leaves calmly. He takes the whole thing very personnally, like it is an attack on him, and the child should be the one to "get in line".

I don't feel like I can just say nothing, so will often remind him she is four, and to calm down, which just makes it worst.

For H, everything comes out as anger. Pain=anger, scared=anger, anger=anger. It's like it's the only emotional channel he has left. But anger is very scary for a young child. She is not scared of him though, maybe because she was always closer to me, and I did stand up for her... I often put myself between her and her father when she was younger,  and I still do.

I know you mentioned to have a common, united front, and on most things we do, but I simply cannot have him scream at her to calm down and to call her entitled. When he dysregulates, I often placate him, yes in front of her, because I simply can't let him abuse her... because this is what it is, right? Let's not lie to ourselves here... He impulsively lashes out like our mothers did... He can control himself better, but he still loses it a lot.

I don't think there were any way for me to prevent her from imprinting within herself that : "when she gets emotional, it leads to fighting", without her father self-regulating. And with me reacting to her father's dysregulation.

I can imagine it going this way in her child head, it's not always like this, but this is likely what happened and how it still happens most often, especially during the pandemic, while my H was home with us all day long:
 
"I didn't get what I want.
I felt frustrated and sad, and it hurt my body. It hurts when I am sad and angry, in my throat, in my chest, everywhere, it hurts.  
Dad started reacting to my screams. He is restless now.
Mom kneeled down, said she could see I had lots of emotions.
Mom wanted me to breath to get back in control.
I couldn't do it, and I screamed harder.
Dad got restless and told mom to send me to my room alone.
Mom got restless too (I often react to my husband's anger)
Mom tried again to help me breath, and she said to dad to control himself.
Dad started acting out.
Mom told that him I was only two, and to calm down. Mom is angry now.  
Dad said he couldn't live in a house like that, where there was so much screams. That I was screaming all the time.
Something is wrong with me.
I scream harder.
Mom takes me to my room.
She stays with me, I am ashamed. Mom is angry too. If only I had stayed in control, mom and dad would not be fighting now.
I scream harder.
Mom wants to hug me.
I am ashamed and I push her away.
Mom stays there.
I scream and I bang the floor.
Mom leaves. She doesn't know what to do anymore. I am alone and I am bad. When I am emotional : everyone fights."

I left the door opened, I told her I loved her... But was it truly enough? I know it's not worth banging my head on the wall, I truly did my absolute best...it's just very hard to know all that now, to see all that now, and not to get a "do over". As far as trauma goes, it doesn't sound too bad, but then she is so sensitive that I can only imagine how badly it all registered for her.

I mean, it doesn't seem like such a great response when I put myself in her shoes... I can just now see how dysfunctional our household can quickly become.

On the up side though, is that the second she came out calmer, she was welcomed back, and there was no grudge. My H doesn't hold grudges, and he does tell her often he loves her and plays ball with her and other father-daughter games. My H and I do not fight a lot overall. But I find that very often, whenever one of our children acts out : he escalates it, and I somehow find myself having to help my child regulate WHILE he is arguing with me and openly stating how "this is not a life"... I imagine he is replaying what happened in his household.

So... Am I condemned to just witness him pass down his household trauma to our children because he refuses to get help and look at it?  

I agree that the best approach would be for him to leave the room...hopefully in a calm manner. Hopefully I can get us there.

 I would encourage you to share your concerns with the teacher in a calm and non-threatening way.  Write out your reasons why ahead of time - point form so you can refer to them if need be.  Most teachers really care, and this person may be well-meaning, without understanding there could be negative consequences for some children.  You could share an example or short story to make your point.  Is it a preschool?  Are they ECE trained?  

She was with me her first four years and she is in preschool now. And they are ECE trained. There is one ECE and one teacher for 14 children. My daughter loves it. And I think I might discuss it with them at the next meeting. We are supposed to have a one on one meeting with the teacher in November, so I might ask a bit more a out it and what they are trying to teach with that privilege box. and more details as to how they are actually implementing it.

I really have a hard time accepting that feeling sad and angry be associated to something negative... It just doesn't feel right.

 Have you seen the emotion picsyms for kids?  If you are able to see her escalating in the early stages, it might be possible to sit down with her, and use the picsyms to help her express her emotions in a more healthy way.

I haven't see those, and will look into it. A quick Google search didn't turn up anything, do you have a direct link maybe?

My daughter is actually very good to identify and discuss her feelings and what led to them now...I like to believe that despite what I wrote up there about how she might have felt when her father acted out, that most times,she felt safe enough to discuss and express them that she learned quickly what it was all about. I do think she feels safe being herself with me, and that she feels a secure attachement to me. Her dad, I am a bit less sure, on account of him "unwillingly" turning on her often when she shows emotions.

Her teacher told me she was amazed at how my D can quickly find situations that would generate specific emotions. She however stated she found my D often "didn't know what to do with her big emotions". And I remember reading that and thinking :  well..ain't it normal? So I wrote back, and didn't get an answer...I am looking forward to speaking with her in person.

A question: when you say there was NO emotion allowed in their house, are you referring to negative emotion like sadness or anger?  Were they allowed to express happiness and joy?  If yes, I would ask why not sadness or anger, as these are parts of the human condition.  If a pet dies, a child needs to be able to express sadness and cry.  Anger is trickier.  It depends if it is used for revenge or to hurt and punish someone, or if it becomes a motivator to change the human condition to improve something that needs improving.  IMHO, well adjusted healthy people are able to have a range of emotions, and they learn how to channel them to be their best self.  This is what we want to teach our children.  

I agree with you, wholeheartedly, and this is how I try to parent. My husband was sent away whenever he was angry or sad, they would isolate him and not discuss emotions. When I mentioned talking about all emotions with me daughter, she basically rolled her eyes. She never dealt with "negative" emotions. And he told me his father was often angry and didn't seem happy to be home. That he'd be looking forward to leaving for work again.

His parents are sneaky. Like Notwendy mentioned, it is all very covert in his FOO, as opposed to the overt abuse we suffered with BPD parents.

Like this morning, my 18 months old pointed to ketchup, and his grandfather called him impatient. He laughed it off, but he said : he is angry at me ! And it felt odd for me. Like...I think when it was his children, he would have reacted much stronger, and not laughed it off. I think he kept to himself something because I was there, if it makes sense?

The more they see their grandchildren, the more they think they can "parent" them, and the more they start imposing their ways on me, which I always have to push back. and it is all very covert, to a point where I often think I am going crazy, maybe overthinking. Like this morning MIL started telling my daughter how and what to eat in her plate. I didn't say anything, but thinking back on it, I feel angry.

And then I remember : I do not feel this way with my stepmother... My stepmother is safe. My stepmother showed me how it is to feel safe with someone. If I feel triggered like this with them, it likely is because there is something triggering me.

Then I remember : grandma again gave candies to my daughter in hiding. She didn't watered down the juice like I asked. She was angry that I made diner for them when they came to take care of them (I wanted to help them out so they could enjoy their time with their grandchildren instead of cooking... My D told me the next day that grandma didn't eat her meal and talked about pizza... My D doesn't like pizza, but clearly grandma was pushing her own agenda). She keeps pushing to give milk to my son as a direct reaction to me breastfeeding him, and keep asking when I will stop. All the comments are coverts, and if you react to it : radio silence, and she is waify.

She admitted once she could never "stand up to her mother in law" the way I stand up to her. I think she understands why I say what I say, and she wants to respect our boundaries, but because she doesn't express anything, she builds resentment and starts baiting me with covert comments. I feel tension and I seldom understand what happened, and am left reading between the lines.

There is clear resentment, and a tendency to take everything personal... As of the fact that I don't parent my kid like she did is a direct attack on her somehow, and that she "knows" better. I often mentioned the generational gap, that we aren't told the same thing they were told, that we are all doing our best... But she doesn't seem to grasp that.

Our son was a highly sensitive child.  He came into the world that way.  The colic started when he was about 3 weeks old, and when he outgrew that, there were an abundance of other significant challenges.  It was difficult, and we were worried.  We enrolled him in a child development preschool, got him some early childhood supports, and today he is a well adjusted successful professional with a great sense of humour, healthy friends, and a kind character.  My point is, it can get better.  It won't always be this hard.  Just because it's like this now, doesn't mean it has to stay that way. There's ages and stages.

I am grateful that your children grew up to be healthy and well adjusted people. I do think I also have to trust her instinct and her, really, to manage herself too...

If I cleared and learned through my trauma, she can too. Maybe she can do it sooner than I did too.

So far she is doing great with friends, in school, so maybe I am just worrying too much.

I do find it incredibly hard to be a parent, without parents to guide me, without a reference point, without anyone truly safe to tell me I am doing a good job... For a while, I had hoped my in-laws would be, but they aren't, not completely anyway.

So thank you very much for your words Methuen, I truly am doing the best I can to manage my own traumas while raising my children. And the validation helps.

I am not perfect, but then... It isn't the goal right? The goal is to be good role models... I have to remind myself that. As long as I do my best and model self-growth, then it should be all right...

[Couscous]

Do you reckon that's about right? HSP would be what this article calls orchid children?

That’s definitely what it looks like to me.

[Couscous]

My daughter has been pretending to be her teacher, and if I raise my voice a bit to keep, say, my son to hit me, my daughter gets up and "moves me toward the cloud".

Funnily enough Dr Laura Markham suggests that parents do just this to help themselves stop the yelling habit.   

https://www.ahaparenting.com/read/how-parents-can-stop-the-cycle-of-yelling

[Riv3rW0lf]

Funnily enough Dr Laura Markham suggests that parents do just this to help themselves stop the yelling habit.   

https://www.ahaparenting.com/read/how-parents-can-stop-the-cycle-of-yelling

You always find so many references ;) it's great

I guess that's my main question for her... Is the reward principle based on reinforcing the control they have over themselves (no yelling, no hitting, use your words to express yourself), and maybe to make them more conscious of their emotions... Like : "Ok I heard you scream, seems to me you are angry right now" in a way to make them aware of their emotions, and give them words, but still acknowledging that feeling sad or angry is still healthy and normal?

It's seems slippery to give privileges to "happy children" and not to "sad or angry" children. Maybe they have something to be angry about. But maybe they do all that.. listen to them, help them regulate. Maybe it is perfectly healthy as a system, too, I don't know.

It is a bit strange to think that schools are now teaching emotional regulation to kids... Because parents can't do it.

I think I did it ok with my D and now with S... But it's been quite a rollercoaster for me, to learn to feel this late in life. I am not a yeller myself. I'm a criticizer when I am angry! Usually, my daughter points it out to me... Which is humbling, to be told by a four years old that we are out of ourselves.

I truly think my children were my best teachers in life so far. They taught me so much about myself, it's crazy.

[pursuingJoy]

I was taught to repress emotions so I tried to change that with my girls. I wasn't afraid of their emotion and tried to create space for it. I was successful in that they can show emotion, and are unafraid to do so. They can often express their emotions with descriptive words and nuance, which I think is good.

My girls are older now and I'm seeing that I made a few mistakes, unknowingly, mistakes that I hope will rectify themselves with time and experience.

1. I didn't focus enough on tools to manage emotion like breathing, taking a break, alone time, etc when they reach their limit. They struggle to self-regulate and know when to quit pushing, something I hope will come with maturity.
2. I failed to remember that not everyone in society has the same ideas about emotion that I do. One in particular feels entitled to 'emote' in work and other settings, they are sometimes shocked that people respond the way they do.
3. I didn't train them how to monitor their own reactions to other people's emotions, whether that is discomfort, anger, anxiety. They don't always lend others the emotional space they themselves demand.

They're wonderful people and things have a way of sorting themselves out, but maybe hearing about my mistakes will help others. Working emotional repression out of our psyches will probably take several generations.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I was taught to repress emotions so I tried to change that with my girls. I wasn't afraid of their emotion and tried to create space for it. I was successful in that they can show emotion, and are unafraid to do so. They can often express their emotions with descriptive words and nuance, which I think is good.

My girls are older now and I'm seeing that I made a few mistakes, unknowingly, mistakes that I hope will rectify themselves with time and experience.

1. I didn't focus enough on tools to manage emotion like breathing, taking a break, alone time, etc when they reach their limit. They struggle to self-regulate and know when to quit pushing, something I hope will come with maturity.
2. I failed to remember that not everyone in society has the same ideas about emotion that I do. One in particular feels entitled to 'emote' in work and other settings, they are sometimes shocked that people respond the way they do.
3. I didn't train them how to monitor their own reactions to other people's emotions, whether that is discomfort, anger, anxiety. They don't always lend others the emotional space they themselves demand.

They're wonderful people and things have a way of sorting themselves out, but maybe hearing about my mistakes will help others. Working emotional repression out of our psyches will probably take several generations.

Pursuing joy,

Thank you so much for your insight and sharing your parenting experience with me. It is very helpful for me to read you, you offered good food for thoughts.

I find it interesting that you see alone time as a way to help self-regulate, and I think there must be a balance to it... I tend to dramatize and overanalyse everything.. when I am highly emotive,, I do welcome some alone time, be it a walk, drawings, cooking by myself... I don't necessarily want to talk it out. I just need time. Might be the same for our children.

sometimes it does feel like the more I give in and allow my daughter to express herself, the more emotional she gets, and the harder it seems for her to self-soothe. A good example would be that she starts whining again, even though I always kept it clear I wouldn't indulge whining?

My husband believes I am doing her a disservice by allowing her to self-soothe with us, and would rather send her to her room for alone time. His point is often what you mentioned : "she cannot act this way in society. We need to teach her how to be in society" but then is being well adjusted to a sick society a good thing?

I also often forget to offer guidance as to how to calm down,but then she also often push back against those techniques. Gabor Mate seems to believe self-regulation of emotions should happen on its own. Do you agree?

My D does discuss other's emotions and how it made her feel, even though I don't believe I willingly trained her for it. It seems like it came naturally. This being said, she does push a lot more than she should, but then she is still only 4... It's gonna be interesting to see her grow to be sure...

I am much calmer this morning regarding my parenting decisions so far... I do believe you are right that things have a tendency to sort themselves out... And their have a inner life too, our children, that we are unaware of... It is hard to know what truly is registering within them. We can only guess to a certain extent, and do our best...

[pursuingJoy]

I think the most important thing we can do for our kids is process our own hurts. Kids and the way they behave have a way of tapping into our hurts and insecurities without meaning to. Being mindful of our own emotions and triggers is important - it usually indicates something isn't yet settled within us.

You're doing great and I trust you to do make wise and informed choices for your daughter. You know you, and you know her better than anyone.

I find it interesting that you see alone time as a way to help self-regulate, and I think there must be a balance to it...

I think it's about helping our kids understand the reasons they have emotions, and offer tools to help them regulate/come back to baseline. Feeling the emotion isn't the only goal. The goal is processing, getting to the root, self-awareness, emotional management and empowerment, empathy, maturity, responsibility and accountability.

Maybe you could help your daughter by saying, "It's normal to feel angry, it usually happen when I feel like I don't have any choices. It's also important not to hurt other people with our anger. You have the ability to manage your emotions, and you're responsible to do so. I want you to choose one thing to do for 20 minutes." And then offer your daughter three options to choose from - time alone, time to color, or time outside - to bring herself back to baseline?

sometimes it does feel like the more I give in and allow my daughter to express herself, the more emotional she gets, and the harder it seems for her to self-soothe. A good example would be that she starts whining again, even though I always kept it clear I wouldn't indulge whining?

Another mistake I made was validating my girls' pain without centering or offering tools to manage their pain. Validating is the first step, but it's hard for them to get past it without the second two.

is being well adjusted to a sick society a good thing?

We'd love for the world to be a safe place for our kids to emote, but the reality is, society isn't ready. And in fairness, I'm not sure all of society is sick. I think a more centered place to land is that this is more about teaching a time and place for everything, and equipping our kids with the knowledge to know when and where.

Gabor Mate seems to believe self-regulation of emotions should happen on its own. Do you agree?

I think most of us have had to learn, or at least copy from someone else, the techniques to self-regulate.

 I help lead a diversity leadership initiative. We have 30 adult professionals for two full days every month and we talk about hot topics like racism, sexism, etc. This week one of the participants shared an unpopular opinion and members of the group piled on with unnecessary emotion, attacking him personally and worse, professionally. They were shaking, anxious, angry, and hurt. I was horrified. Emotions ran rampant and did a lot of damage. The emotional parties were blaming everyone, including us, the leaders.

The following day, calmer, centered opinions were expressed from those who were silent the day before. The group regulated itself back to center. What struck me was the demeanor of our facilitator, someone who has done this work for 30+ years. Nine times out of ten, when someone spoke, she acknowledged their opinion then called on the next person to speak. She never invalidated, nor did she let the entire group simmer in their discontent. Most importantly, it worked. She didn't control the group or tell them what to do, but her demeanor brought the entire room back to baseline. They borrowed her calm.

It made me realize that when my kids were hurt or angry, I sat with them in validation (because that's what I lacked when I was a kid) and I affirmed their hurt and anger. And that's where we stayed. In my case, my wounds hadn't healed. I was giving them what I thought I needed.

It is hard to know what truly is registering within them. We can only guess to a certain extent, and do our best...

So true. We do the best we can and hope it's enough. I'm not an expert by any stretch, and everyone has an opinion. I trust you and I hope you trust yourself.

[Couscous]

It's seems slippery to give privileges to "happy children" and not to "sad or angry" children. Maybe they have something to be angry about. But maybe they do all that.. listen to them, help them regulate. Maybe it is perfectly healthy as a system, too, I don't know.

Oh, just to clarify, Dr Laura Markham is opposed to the use of behavior/ reward charts for children — it’s just meant to be for the parents.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think the most important thing we can do for our kids is process our own hurts. Kids and the way they behave have a way of tapping into our hurts and insecurities without meaning to. Being mindful of our own emotions and triggers is important - it usually indicates something isn't yet settled within us.

You're doing great and I trust you to do make wise and informed choices for your daughter. You know you, and you know her better than anyone.

Thank you for this.

I can only talk for myself, but I imagine others must feel this way... Because I grew up without a safe mother, and because today I still don't have anyone safe to turn to when I doubt myself as a parent... I mean... being a parent is a lot even in safe households, so I guess it is no wonder that I often vacillate when it comes to raising my children.

There are so many experts, and it feels like opening the box of Gabor Maté really pushed me out of myself. Like a young child, when it comes to something so sensitive, I get trigger by simple sentences, and I start spinning my wheels. I've heard it so many times before : "everything is played before three, after that, you will need to correct what you messed up." And then self-doubt creeps in, the perfectionism..

I don't want my kids to be perfect. Like every single parents: I want them to be well and to do well for themselves and for others. But it doesn't come with a manual! And my reference points are all messed up. So then I get on google and down the rabbit hole I go... It gets unhealthy in a way... because then I find myself not acting on instinct either. Which like you said is really what I should aim to do, first and foremost.

Maybe some emotional crisis require that I be there and validate. Maybe for some other emotional crisis, dad is the one who is right, and she needs to be put in time out, without being called out or screamed at, just because really big show of emotions are sometimes truly unwarranted. Gabor Maté say we cannot judge the trauma that happens within... But then not all reasons behind the crisis are equal either and truly... maybe they cannot all be treated the same way. Jordan Peterson is likely right too : "you cannot act out this intensely because you lost a game (for example). It hurts, sure, you wanted it to work your way, sure. But you just lost control, and you can't play when you are not in control, so when you are calm, you will be welcome back. Until then, you stay here." No scream, no judgement, and the child is truly welcome back when he is calm. It doesn't sound unreasonable, and I was taken aback by Maté's take on it... And down the rabbit hole of shame I went...

Maybe you could help your daughter by saying, "It's normal to feel angry, it usually happen when I feel like I don't have any choices. It's also important not to hurt other people with our anger. You have the ability to manage your emotions, and you're responsible to do so. I want you to choose one thing to do for 20 minutes." And then offer your daughter three options to choose from - time alone, time to color, or time outside - to bring herself back to baseline?

It made me realize that when my kids were hurt or angry, I sat with them in validation (because that's what I lacked when I was a kid) and I affirmed their hurt and anger. And that's where we stayed. In my case, my wounds hadn't healed. I was giving them what I thought I needed.

I love this idea of giving her three options and will use it in the future following the validation. Thank you. I also tend to stay with the validation, without moving to step two : return to baseline. Because to be perfectly honest : I have NO IDEA how I even do this for myself. Sometimes, I simply can't and I need A LOT of time to regulate myself... Usually, I am not abusive, but definitely not present... I dissociate and I find it very hard to get back to normal... It can take me a couple days. Something to work on...

We'd love for the world to be a safe place for our kids to emote, but the reality is, society isn't ready. And in fairness, I'm not sure all of society is sick. I think a more centered place to land is that this is more about teaching a time and place for everything, and equipping our kids with the knowledge to know when and where.

I agree... I imagine too that wherever the parents "fail" to train a child accordingly, society will teach them for us. It might be a little more blunt, but still effective.

I think most of us have had to learn, or at least copy from someone else, the techniques to self-regulate.

 I help lead a diversity leadership initiative. We have 30 adult professionals for two full days every month and we talk about hot topics like racism, sexism, etc. This week one of the participants shared an unpopular opinion and members of the group piled on with unnecessary emotion, attacking him personally and worse, professionally. They were shaking, anxious, angry, and hurt. I was horrified. Emotions ran rampant and did a lot of damage. The emotional parties were blaming everyone, including us, the leaders.

The following day, calmer, centered opinions were expressed from those who were silent the day before. The group regulated itself back to center. What struck me was the demeanor of our facilitator, someone who has done this work for 30+ years. Nine times out of ten, when someone spoke, she acknowledged their opinion then called on the next person to speak. She never invalidated, nor did she let the entire group simmer in their discontent. Most importantly, it worked. She didn't control the group or tell them what to do, but her demeanor brought the entire room back to baseline. They borrowed her calm.

This is a powerful story. It must be interesting and peaceful to work with her. I see what you mean about the emotion running rampant.

My husband and I had a talk earlier, and he told me about the danger of raising kids that are too emotional as well. And to be fair, he is right... We truly need both our reason and emotions... When I get emotional, everything gets blurry. But I need to be able to process those emotions to get access to my gut feelings... It's a thin balance.

I like your story. It goes to show the power of just one person with a calm mind in a room... It is humbling to think about it...

Maybe this is what I lack right now in my life, you know... At this stage of my life, as a somewhat young parents, I hoped that my parents would be calm, and wise... and that they could offer that peaceful, loving presence to help guide me in parenting my own children. But my parents are completely opposite of this peaceful presence. So I find myself with nowhere to turn to when I lose my footing.

Well, other than here, on this forum, that is. Thank goodness for this forum.

[Couscous]

I have been using a connection based, non-punitive parenting approach with my kids and my 7 year old has no problem with emotional self-regulation.

My 5 year old is another story. He is an HSP/ deeply feeling kid, is very inflexible, and also was showing signs of pathological demand avoidance. Since his behavior had steadily been getting more challenging from age 4 onwards, I requested an Occupational Therapy evaluation. Sure enough, he had some gross and fine motor delays which was affecting his behavior and he qualified for OT, which we have been doing for about 2 months now. We saw results after the first session and his ability to self-regulate as well as be more flexible has improved by about 1000%. It has been quite miraculous. Perhaps that’s something you could look into for your daughter at some point?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am grateful to hear your son is doing better. That must have been intense to deal with, it's the first time I hear of pathological demand avoidance. Would you give some example as to how  it looks? It's not like defiance, I assume? More like... Not cleaning his room or really also in the way he talked to you?

My D does answer our requests and expectations, most times...and mine anyway... She confront her dad A LOT and has a hard time listening to him. I often have to intervene, she listens to me more... she feels very deeply, and has a very hard time getting back to baseline. But her emotional meltdowns truly got further apart over time.  

What worries me with her is that she internalizes everything and is already very hard on herself. She picks up so many little details about the world, that she doesn't have the ability to understand yet, and she gets anxious and highly stressed.

She used to have terrible night terrors. Now it's always a terrible dilemma for me, because, say she wakes up and cries at 10pm.. if I go and offer support, she will wake up every 45 minutes on the clock and whine until I go to her room. If I don't,I feel like a terrible mother... It seems like the more I give, the more she needs, to a point where I feel I am doing her a disservice, if that makes sense...

On top of it, even though she has never been alone, even though I stayed home with her, for her, left my career to be with her, she often talks about : don't abandon me ! ... It really makes me freak out that she could turn borderline like my mother.

But she is not defiant, no really. But very self-aware and anxious. And she fears loneliness and abandonment... I mean... I literally coslept with her for 3 years, up until she told me she was okay. Then she started waking up again, asking me to go back to sleeping in her room, but just didn't feel right to do it. Held my ground... Now she almost sleep through the night but every time she wakes, I have an internal battle : do I go? Do I wait? Will she calm down on her own? Does she feel abandoned? Will she turn like mom...

[Notwendy]

I think the most important thing we can do for our kids is process our own hurts. Kids and the way they behave have a way of tapping into our hurts and insecurities without meaning to. Being mindful of our own emotions and triggers is important - it usually indicates something isn't yet settled within us.

I think this key point needs to be kept in mind and I agree.

Riv3rW0lf- from your description of your child, she seems to be mature for age 4 but even if a child is verbally precocious, emotionally she's a 4 year old. Your husband has a point that people don't act like emotional 4 year olds in society, but 4 year olds do.


We've all seen toddler temper tantrums in stores and overwhelmed parents. There's a tendency to look at this with a critical eye "well they can't control their child" but there's a lot more going on here. The parent could be tired, the child hungry and tired. While I think parents can have behavioral expectations, if these are beyond the child' ability, them it's a problem.

Kids have different natures. If she's an anxious child, then that is how she's made. She may need more affection and soothing at her age. She's also possibly picking up on her parents' fears and anxiety. You also need to consider what behaviors you are reinforcing. If she gets up at night and you go to her, she will continue to do that. This may start with a discussion about expectations "Mommy is sleeping and will come get you in the morning". Then, don't go to her, or if you do, make it brief. Then in the morning praise her for staying in her room all night. " we are so proud of you"

The fear of "not being a good mom"- I think we all understand that, but you are not your mother- your D has you.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Kids have different natures. If she's an anxious child, then that is how she's made. She may need more affection and soothing at her age. She's also possibly picking up on her parents' fears and anxiety. You also need to consider what behaviors you are reinforcing. If she gets up at night and you go to her, she will continue to do that. This may start with a discussion about expectations "Mommy is sleeping and will come get you in the morning". Then, don't go to her, or if you do, make it brief. Then in the morning praise her for staying in her room all night. " we are so proud of you"

The fear of "not being a good mom"- I think we all understand that, but you are not your mother- your D has you.

Yes, I am definitely aware that she picked up on a lot of my own anxiety when she was baby. We had a difficult birth, and like many of us here, her birth was an intense enlightening for me. My mother came to help me get back on my feet, I still wasn't aware of all my trauma, and I remember feeling like my own house was dangerous, and needing to be constantly with my baby. The only one I trusted her with was her father.

My mother would come take her while I slept, and I would get up instantly, and ask her back, resulting in my mother invalidating me. It was the first time in my life I was actually standing for myself, demanding she gave me my baby back, under the guise that I "needed to breastfeed her". I was very emotional... And then the dreams about my mother being dangerous started. It was a lot to take in. So.. of course, my daughter's first months and years of her life, are tainted by all this too.

And yes, I do listen to my husband too, in the end. He also has her well being at heart. He loses it more often, but in the end, he is aware that this is a problem, and he is working on it.

I think.. for the reinforcing part.. I find a lot of it hard to manage because I tend to zoom into things. I look at tiny details and I lose track almost entirely of the big picture. Because I carry trauma, because I am aware of trauma, it is always at the back of my head... "Ho look, I scarred her there"... And I forget that some scars are actually essential, because we don't live in a society where we can just do as we please either. I do enforce my own boundaries now. I tell her I also need my sleep, that she is a big girl now, that I am just in the next room if she really needs me, but that not all awakenings are emergencies.

I think my own tendency to answer her comes from myself waking up when I was young to realize my mother had left the house. She was nowhere to be found. I was 4, and would cry relentlessly for I don't know how long. At some point, she would come in the house, drunk. She would ask '"what are you doing there?", she would hug me, stinking of booze... she was nicer drunk, but drunk she was, and put me back to bed. At some point, I stopped calling out. I would just be paralyzed in bed after nightmares, knowing it didn't matter if I screamed out or not... And I guess this is what I don't want for my daughter... To be paralyzed in bed, thinking I don't care... Because I do. Now I answer her from my own bed: "it's ok, I'm just over here, it's still nighttime, try to go back to sleep", sometime it is enough. I guess the little voice at the back of my head is my own trauma telling me she will miss me like I missed my mother... But you are right Notwendy that I am not my mother, and I am not a drunk in a bar while my children are asleep alone in my house. I truly am in the next room, within ear-shot.

I do wish I could sometimes turn off my head. Everything gets very complicated real quick when it concerns my children. I am aware of that. Maybe I should actually stop listening and reading about parenting skills and just trust myself to do well by them... If only because listening to those podcasts and websites just triggers my perfectionism, and then I likely become a worst mother for it.

[Couscous]

Maybe I should actually stop listening and reading about parenting skills and just trust myself to do well by them... If only because listening to those podcasts and websites just triggers my perfectionism, and then I likely become a worst mother for it.

I have this EXACT problem. My new T recommended that I limit myself to just following Dr Becky on Instagram, and I have found that she is the only one that doesn’t trigger me. 

[zanyapple]

I also share your fears of not wanting to be like your BPD parent.

To those who are now parents, have your relationships changed with your BPD parent after your child was born? How has it changed?

For me, I felt more protective, determined that my child never sees the toxicity that my uBPD mother is making everyone experience. I also felt more resentment towards my her as I now ask myself - how could she have done the things she did to me before? I could never do those to an innocent child. Have any of you felt that way?

[Couscous]

zanyapple,

In my case, what I'm thinking is that I don't really resent my mother for what happened in the past, but rather, for the fact that I am still walking on eggshells, and still scared of doing something that may set her off, and as such, I do things that I really don't want to do, just to keep the peace. This is what I think leads to resentment.

The quote, "The past is never dead. It isn't even past," seems to apply to my relationship with her. So what I think I needs to happen is that I need to reassure my inner child that when I hold a boundary and mom throws a fit and/or gives me the silent treatment, that I will actually be OK. I can just let her have her reaction, and I don't have to do anything to fix it. Even if she never speaks to me again (which her mother did with her so I assume this is something I unconsciously fear), I will still be OK, because I am now an adult who can fend for myself.

I think it might really all come down to reminding ourselves, over and over, that when mom is displeased about something, our life is no longer in danger. 

[pursuingJoy]

What Couscous said rings true for me, too. It wasn't enough for me to protect my kids or try not to become my parents. It was pursuing personal healing that put me in a better position to nurture, appreciate the value of limits and boundaries and know how to apply them appropriately.

I didn't always get it right. I'm realizing generational trauma doesn't work itself out in one generation. It will take time to work itself out of our family system. I can only hope that my kids will improve on the work that's been started.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I also share your fears of not wanting to be like your BPD parent.

To those who are now parents, have your relationships changed with your BPD parent after your child was born? How has it changed?

Simply put, it woke me up to who was my mother, and to whom I had became as a result of her upbringing. It changed everything, because it forced me to finally find myself, and confront my traumas.

For me, I felt more protective, determined that my child never sees the toxicity that my uBPD mother is making everyone experience. I also felt more resentment towards my her as I now ask myself - how could she have done the things she did to me before? I could never do those to an innocent child. Have any of you felt that way?

Yes, this came with therapy. These is an anger side of us, of our inner child, that wants to come out, and this inner child holds all of your anger, rage and resentment toward her. So yes, it happened to me as well. It was a need for protection, but there was also a cold, cruel part of me that wanted to hurt her just as badly as she hurt me when I was young. It was a hard pill to swallow, to confront this shadow side of me... and it took a lot of cries and acknowledgment of my anger. A lot of rumination, depression, exhaustion... But on the other side...

I moved to what Couscous describes... I found back some kind of love for my BPD mother, was able to differentiate her illness from the mother she was. I am NC with her, not out of anger, but simply because I still haven't found how to manage my C-PTSD when I think about her. She is such a strong trigger for me... So there is still a part of self-protection, and by extension, protection for my kids... Because I have to be my best self for them.

It is not so much about what she did, as it is about the scars it left on me. It's hard to explain... It is not anger about the past, just a willingness to protect myself now, and because I do not wish to deal with the blame-shifting and splitting while I am still discovering who I am, and learning to respect myself while navigating human relationships. I simply can't afford to be triggered right now... I am still discovering who I am, and building myself up.

[Notwendy]

Growing up, we don't really know what "normal" is. We only know what our own parents are like. I didn't have any other experience of what a mother is. By my teens, I knew that what was going on was not normal, but what does a normal mother-child relationship look like? I did have examples from family members and my friends' mothers but it was like looking at something from the outside.

My parents came to visit when my oldest was born. I think it was fortunate that my BPD mother didn't have an interest in hands on baby care or helping with household chores. I didn't have to worry about her handling my baby. I think she may have wanted to hold the baby briefly but mostly she just wanted to look, from a distance. She also didn't show gestures of "mothering" to me.  I think after someone just has a baby, people might ask if they want some food, or a glass of water but BPD mother isn't inclined to do these things. I didn't expect her to do anything and I surely knew not to ask.

By contrast, when my in laws came to visit, MIL took over the kitchen. I don't know how we'd have eaten if not for her. Who has time to cook when there's a newborn. Another contrast is that when we announced I was pregnant, MIL wanted to take me shopping for maternity clothes but my own BPD mother didn't ever do that. My parents did help financially by buying some baby items. We didn't have much income at the time so it was a big help. It wasn't usual for them to offer, but they wanted to buy baby gifts and we were appreciative. This was before I understood BPD and how that might play into relationships. I knew I would not ever expose my kids to her disordered behaviors. She seemed to be managing when my father was with her. At the time, I believed she had been doing better since we kids were grown. I knew I would not leave a child unsupervised with my mother. I don't trust her with that. But she always visited with my father and I would be there too.

My in laws had more modest means. But a mother-daughter shopping trip isn't just financial- it's time together, going for a snack or coffee together, looking at the clothes in shops. Both gestures were appreciated but there was a relationship aspect to taking a day to go out to the shops together. I didn't do these things with my mother.

When my parents visited my father would engage the kids, play with them and read them stories but my mother would wander off or go lie on the couch.

I think for me, there was a surprise to see the contrast of how I felt towards my baby compared to the behaviors of my mother. My father was there too, so they'd go to the store for us- to get food, diapers, things like that. This was a big help. But it was the absence of motherly inclination that surprised me. I saw that this came naturally to mother in law, and I also felt "motherly" towards my own child but it wasn't obvious what my own mother felt.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

Would you say your mother is a low-functioning BPD?

Sometimes the way you describe her, I also wonder is she isn't more of a covert narcissist than borderline? With the golden child and the scapegoat... I mean... The covert narcissist label seems like a good match for her...

My BPD mother is, on the contrary, very motherly, to a point where I suffocated... because her love came with a price, the price of returning it to her 10 folds, and of not abandoning her. She would get cold when I didn't act a certain way toward her, she only tolerated us when we were "loving" toward her. She groomed us to love her, to a certain extent, by punishing us when we showed individuality. But she did take care of us on all other fronts. She would cook, wash, clean (with anger), but still... She really wanted to provide nice tables, nice dessert, clean houses... But it felt like a front... We had good dessert made out of rage... She didn't treat us all the same, but there was never a clear golden child or a clear scapegoat. She was rather reacting to our behavior and trying to mold us into what she needed to compensate for her trauma. Which is what makes the relationship weird because there truly is a loving, tender side to my mother. But she is impulsive and she rages, always.
 
I think that's the best way to frame it : my mother REACTS, while your mother seems to PULL STRINGS.

Reading how she treats you and acts, it feels like your mother really either is low-functioning, or very narcissistic? You know her more than I do but I reckon narcissistic rages could look like borderline rages too...?

To a certain point, it doesn't really change the trauma, but maybe there are some additional tools for covert narcissistic abuse specifically. And maybe they can't be "managed" like borderlines.