Almost a decade later - update for people hesitating to leaiv their bpdso

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So it's been a few years. Looking back at my own posts, I've matured a bit. I always feel something is missing a bit in life, but I understand that has to do with me, my childhood and my parents. Not with my bpd ex.

I always thought she would change one day. She's 30 something now. I first met her one summer when she was fourteen. We just hung out for a day, and then never spoke again until she was 20 and we started dating. This girl was ridiculously beautiful. Way out of my league in terms of physical attraction, no doubt. You  can check out my old posts if you want to read more about her back then.

She called me a few months ago. She tried to convince me she's the only one who ever loved me.She wanted to meet. She wanted to have sex. She wanted to get paid for having sex. "It has to be worth something to you! Don't you remember how special we were?"

Many of you will recognize the tone.

I always thought she would change. I always thought "this is different from all that I'm reading." It isn't, it wasn't and it never will be.

What's her life like today? This absolutely beautiful 9.5/10 woman, what's she like?

She's dating drug addicts, criminals. She told me when she called me she had a date that she brought home, but during the night, he got up, got out and started spraying grafitti on the cars parked on her street. Another one had locked her up and abused her. Yet another one was one of the richest people on the planet, an oil sheikh. Another one owned a castle.

What's true and what's a lie? Who knows?

She sent me a picture of herself during the phone call, which I didn't ask for. She looked like a wreck. She had gained 60-70 pounds. She looked like a diseased human that you would never want to go near. She told me she had lost four teeth. Still doing drugs.

Oh, and she had also just been on a date with someone who had spanked her so hard her skin broke and she started bleeding. She laughed while saying it, by the way.

I asked her what she does for a living. She said she doesn't have a job and she's struggling with money. She also cannot walk more than a hundred yards anymore, so she got the gov't to pay for her to take a cab basically anyway, due to medical needs. Yeah...

I mean, the list goes on and on. Don't convince yourself it's going to get better.

What would I say to myself back then? I'd very sternly say:

- LonelyChild, look here man, you have a choice. Either you leave this dysfunctional woman and you face your own issues right now - and that's gonna hurt like you can't even imagine. Either that, or you cover up your own issues chasing this dysfunctional, sad person, and then she's going to drag you to the bottom, and you will have been condition to have chasing her as your sole purpose of life, and then you will be left alone with another guy to replace you because you're no longer fun, energetic or interesting. And then after that, you still have to deal with your own issues anyway.

For anyone reading this - please consider getting out. It. Will. Not. Change.

[LonelyChild]

So it's been a few years. Looking back at my own posts, I've matured a bit. I always feel something is missing a bit in life, but I understand that has to do with me, my childhood and my parents. Not with my bpd ex.

I always thought she would change one day. She's 30 something now. I first met her one summer when she was fourteen. We just hung out for a day, and then never spoke again until she was 20 and we started dating. This girl was ridiculously beautiful. Way out of my league in terms of physical attraction, no doubt. You  can check out my old posts if you want to read more about her back then.

She called me a few months ago. She tried to convince me she's the only one who ever loved me.She wanted to meet. She wanted to have sex. She wanted to get paid for having sex. "It has to be worth something to you! Don't you remember how special we were?"

Many of you will recognize the tone.

I always thought she would change. I always thought "this is different from all that I'm reading." It isn't, it wasn't and it never will be.

What's her life like today? This absolutely beautiful 9.5/10 woman, what's she like?

She's dating drug addicts, criminals. She told me when she called me she had a date that she brought home, but during the night, he got up, got out and started spraying grafitti on the cars parked on her street. Another one had locked her up and abused her. Yet another one was one of the richest people on the planet, an oil sheikh. Another one owned a castle.

What's true and what's a lie? Who knows?

She sent me a picture of herself during the phone call, which I didn't ask for. She looked like a wreck. She had gained 60-70 pounds. She looked like a diseased human that you would never want to go near. She told me she had lost four teeth. Still doing drugs.

Oh, and she had also just been on a date with someone who had spanked her so hard her skin broke and she started bleeding. She laughed while saying it, by the way.

I asked her what she does for a living. She said she doesn't have a job and she's struggling with money. She also cannot walk more than a hundred yards anymore, so she got the gov't to pay for her to take a cab basically anyway, due to medical needs. Yeah...

I mean, the list goes on and on. Don't convince yourself it's going to get better.

What would I say to myself back then? I'd very sternly say:

- LonelyChild, look here man, you have a choice. Either you leave this dysfunctional woman and you face your own issues right now - and that's gonna hurt like you can't even imagine. Either that, or you cover up your own issues chasing this dysfunctional, sad person, and then she's going to drag you to the bottom, and you will have been condition to have chasing her as your sole purpose of life, and then you will be left alone with another guy to replace you because you're no longer fun, energetic or interesting. And then after that, you still have to deal with your own issues anyway.

For anyone reading this - please consider getting out. It. Will. Not. Change.

[SaltyDawg]

I agree with you when I had a NPD gf, she cheated on me not once, but twice -- I got out -- and it was good -- I was not married, I did not have kids with her, so it was not an issue doing this especially as I had hard evidence of her infidelities. 

I was rescued over two decades ago by someone who is currently my wife and went from the fire, into the frying pan as I confident that she is a pwuBPD -- initially it was cool and comfortable; however, it now has become hot and sizzling.  First 5 years were great, since then it has been hell.  We have two children together, and have become quite enmeshed, so it is many orders of magnitude more difficult to extricate myself from this precarious position that I now find myself in.

I didn't know about BPD until earlier this Summer.

I have hope that it will change, I am doing all the right things [look at my other posts], and I am also bucking the trend by doing what I am not supposed to do according to this site and all other sites.  Basically I am forcing the issue as I firmly believe what couscous so eloquently put in writing...

If they can control themselves in public, then they have the capacity to do so in private too, and the only reason they do not is because they don't have to. It's really as simple as that.

So, for now [I do reserve the right to change my opinion if this doesn't work], I also disagree with you about 'change'.  As long as I am seeing a net positive change in my wife, I will not get out.  I know that this is the minority of situations, and this is going to be tough.  I need to be there for my children, so I cannot get out, as I am definitely 'trapped'.  However, once the children are out on their own, I too will go out on my own if there is insufficient change when that happens.  I know she can do it [behave with love and care], as she did it for the first two years when we first met -- she just needs to change back to what she was in the beginning -- if she cannot, change back to the person who I thought I was marrying, and insists on being the changed monster that she is as of last month, then I will change my marital status, after I am confident that my children are as safe as they can be out of harms way.

[succinite]

I'm sorry you have to go through all this. At the same time, you should be proud that you have made it to this realization.

They have perfected the ability to show their childishly happy, naïve side at the beginning of every new relationship. The side that we appreciate and believe in so much. As partners we try to bring that side out again when the darker face of the BPD comes out.
It may sound overly dramatic, but once you've looked in those dark, listless eyes, you realize it. Eventually I realized that that happy, bubbly side never existed. At least that applies to the extreme forms that I assume are present when hard drugs are involved. .

I often think to myself that people without this experience can never fully understand how painful it is to watch a person you once loved so much or perhaps still love ruin themselves. The cruel thing is, each of those broke guys she's attracted to after your breakup suits her better than you ever have. Because you are absolutely right. She would have dragged you down with her. This is one of the aspects of Borderline that is far too rarely talked about.
Unfortunately, it's not just this sad, quirky suffering artist's syndrome. Half-healthy mates usually end up being hosts sucked dry to the last drop only to rush into the next unhappy relationship  afterwards. They kind of keep themselves afloat with people like us. Short term.

Nevertheless, my borderline exes told me years later that the time we spent together remains like a memorial that keeps reminding them that and how a better life would be possible. It's little compared to healthy people, but it's comforting. I think she feels the same way somewhere deep down and that's at least partly why she's trying to get in touch with you.


It's tragic because most of the time they know what they're doing.

In my case I'm convinced she had the opportunity to choose a more difficult but better life. Her favorite movie was Gia and at the point where Gia decided to do drugs instead of a better life with the love of her life, she always cried. When I asked her why she was crying, she said, "It's so awful. Sooner or later I'll do the same to you, I know that. And it will be my end." At that time I hugged her and said that I would never let that happen. When I think about those moments today, I get chills because of this level of self-reflection. She was telling the future back then. They mess up completely knowingly.

However, despite all this, you have found inner strength and are no longer influenced by their manipulation attempts. From a loving point of view.
I think you're doing her a bigger favor than she is ever capable to realize. Not to mention it's the best for you too. You're doing great and she had the choice. Stay strong.

[Tupla Sport]

In my case I'm convinced she had the opportunity to choose a more difficult but better life. Her favorite movie was Gia and at the point where Gia decided to do drugs instead of a better life with the love of her life, she always cried. When I asked her why she was crying, she said, "It's so awful. Sooner or later I'll do the same to you, I know that. And it will be my end." At that time I hugged her and said that I would never let that happen. When I think about those moments today, I get chills because of this level of self-reflection. She was telling the future back then. They mess up completely knowingly.

My ex with BPD said she knew she was going to cheat on me because that's what people with BPD do. She went on to do exactly that. She didn't mean to be callous, she was in a state of a self-hating  episode.

Some times I think that people with BPD end up doing terrible things because they truly believe that is their level. I know they get dissociative amnesia too so they might not actually remember doing bad things but I also think they can just be like "makes sense for me, I'm evil after all".

Some times it's easier to buckle under the emotional pressure. Hell, she called me a narcissist after the breakup and I've been on a kick listening to songs about being evil. It feels cathartic. I even allow myself fantasies of being a narcissistic abuser because for 2 years, she terrorized my life with her very narc-adjacent behavior. BPD to me are just narcissists with a child's mind.

[Tupla Sport]

They have perfected the ability to show their childishly happy, naïve side at the beginning of every new relationship. The side that we appreciate and believe in so much. As partners we try to bring that side out again when the darker face of the BPD comes out.
It may sound overly dramatic, but once you've looked in those dark, listless eyes, you realize it. Eventually I realized that that happy, bubbly side never existed. At least that applies to the extreme forms that I assume are present when hard drugs are involved. .


At first, they trap you with both dopamine and oxytocin. Cuddling feels amazing, sex is amazing, the validation feels amazing. Until they start getting episodes from being close to someone and the oxytocin disappears. They replace it completely with dopamine. All excitement, nerves and being on the lookout all the time.

It's like picking up a habit of smoking weed where you feel relaxed until somebody gives you a bad batch of amfetamine every time. Dopamine PLEASE READs up your brain chemistry when it replaces oxytocin in a close relationship. You feel tense with them, you are low key competing with them on everything because they can't let go of their insecurities for 5 minutes. I didn't realize until a few weeks after the breakup that it's the dopamine that makes them feel like a drug.

The terrible heartache you feel thinking about the first weeks of a r/s with them is the oxytocin I think. For a precious month or two or three, they were giving you rather healthy love. Too much too soon but it had shades of actual affection and safety. Remind yourself regularly though that it isn't sustainable. It was there when their trauma-addled brain had not taken over which it inevitably does. You will slowly become an enemy to their existence and will eventually end up in line with all their previous rescuers, hated and feared.

[succinite]

My ex with BPD said she knew she was going to cheat on me because that's what people with BPD do. She went on to do exactly that. She didn't mean to be callous, she was in a state of a self-hating  episode.

Some times I think that people with BPD end up doing terrible things because they truly believe that is their level. I know they get dissociative amnesia too so they might not actually remember doing bad things but I also think they can just be like "makes sense for me, I'm evil after all".

Some times it's easier to buckle under the emotional pressure. Hell, she called me a narcissist after the breakup and I've been on a kick listening to songs about being evil. It feels cathartic. I even allow myself fantasies of being a narcissistic abuser because for 2 years, she terrorized my life with her very narc-adjacent behavior. BPD to me are just narcissists with a child's mind.

Somehow they only really seem to have lucid moments during those self-degrading episodes, don't they? They were the few moments that went starting points for mine to seek therapy or go to rehab. Of course, they broke off all therapies as soon as a flight of attitude or an ego boost came along.
Same old realization: They are only tolerable to themselves if they hit rock bottom. Any attempt to help, maneuvers them only in narcissitic entitlement long term.
By the way, I share your experience. It's healing to hear that from you. I, too, was partially convinced that I was fundamentally evil but for me it ended into psychotic depression. Because I didn't allow myself to be "bad" / painted black like you did and I was massively blaming myself for what they accused me of. Things are different now. This whole thing has made me a more conflict-aware and stable person.

At first, they trap you with both dopamine and oxytocin. Cuddling feels amazing, sex is amazing, the validation feels amazing. Until they start getting episodes from being close to someone and the oxytocin disappears. They replace it completely with dopamine. All excitement, nerves and being on the lookout all the time.

It's like picking up a habit of smoking weed where you feel relaxed until somebody gives you a bad batch of amfetamine every time. Dopamine PLEASE READs up your brain chemistry when it replaces oxytocin in a close relationship. You feel tense with them, you are low key competing with them on everything because they can't let go of their insecurities for 5 minutes. I didn't realize until a few weeks after the breakup that it's the dopamine that makes them feel like a drug.

The terrible heartache you feel thinking about the first weeks of a r/s with them is the oxytocin I think. For a precious month or two or three, they were giving you rather healthy love. Too much too soon but it had shades of actual affection and safety. Remind yourself regularly though that it isn't sustainable. It was there when their trauma-addled brain had not taken over which it inevitably does. You will slowly become an enemy to their existence and will eventually end up in line with all their previous rescuers, hated and feared.

THIS! You describe this very impressively.
As a side note, it's interesting that you name the two drugs that all my BPD exes abused like crazy, weed and amphetamine (plus alcohol). 
Also I believe this bubbly side is a form of mirroring the hopeful naive part that we carry or have carried within ourselves without which we would never have gotten involved with someone with that amount of issues. Relationship and trauma response or not, I don't think this side is part of their everyday repertoire.

[Tupla Sport]

Somehow they only really seem to have lucid moments during those self-degrading episodes, don't they? They were the few moments that went starting points for mine to seek therapy or go to rehab. Of course, they broke off all therapies as soon as a flight of attitude or an ego boost came along.
Same old realization: They are only tolerable to themselves if they hit rock bottom. Any attempt to help, maneuvers them only in narcissitic entitlement long term.
By the way, I share your experience. It's healing to hear that from you. I, too, was partially convinced that I was fundamentally evil but for me it ended into psychotic depression. Because I didn't allow myself to be "bad" / painted black like you did and I was massively blaming myself for what they accused me of. Things are different now. This whole thing has made me a more conflict-aware and stable person.

I had a terrible time for a while after the accusation came to light as I started reading about covert narcissists as a lot of the traits sounded familiar to me personally. I had to remind myself though that these labels are always on multiple spectra. A person abusing you in a long-term r/s can "temporarily" have you exhibit narc traits. And then call you out on them. Or just see regular, emotionally regulated, boundary-conscious behavior as narcissistic. You learn to manipulate your pwBPD in ways that are definitely at least narcissistic-adjacent. I know I have my weird fantasies of power and megalomania but those are very dark, rare and distant fantasies for me. I don't wake up in the morning and choose to feel better or more special than other people. I'm a regular guy with weird interests and some emotional baggage of my own and most people close to me including my therapist would not call me a narcissist, even if I have some of those traits.

THIS! You describe this very impressively.
As a side note, it's interesting that you name the two drugs that all my BPD exes abused like crazy, weed and amphetamine (plus alcohol).  Smiling (click to insert in post)
Also I believe this bubbly side is a form of mirroring the hopeful naive part that we carry or have carried within ourselves without which we would never have gotten involved with someone with that amount of issues. Relationship and trauma response or not, I don't think this side is part of their everyday repertoire.

I think it might have to also do with their elation in meeting someone who accepts them. The problem is, acceptance is the very first step and you can't share a life with someone you merely accept. But they get stuck in the very first step where healthier individuals hop on to the next stone. You can reel in the Moon for them and they will be impressed but the moment you treat them like an adult individual would treat another adult individual without manipulation, that is to say, have a slip of propriety or simply enforce them with logic or rationality, they forget the Moon even exists and deploy any and all energy to combat you.

And they make you feel like PLEASE READ for it. I knew that every time I would make a rude joke on her expense she would be livid. Like she would give me lectures on racism and when I would point out that it's hilarious that she would call a number of Hollywood celebs "90's black guys" in a hand-wavy way ("I can't tell all those 90's black guys apart") after lecturing me on racism in the past, she went absolutely apePLEASE READ on me, telling me it's cruel to even think of joking on someone's expense like that.

I pointed out her very real hypocrisy and she thought I was being cruel. So you start with her being condescending about racism to me (not to mention trash-talking white cis males like me at every chance she got, despite only dating white cis males for like 90% of her romantic life), then being blatantly racist herself, then getting mad at ME for pointing it out.

[LonelyChild]

I'm sorry you have to go through all this. At the same time, you should be proud that you have made it to this realization.

I'm not really going through anything anymore. I don't miss her, I don't want her back or anything. She's a troubled, sad person and she needs to get help. I think she will likely kill herself before the age of 40. Intentionally or unintentionally.

It was rather a reach-out from "the end of the tunnel" - because I've been through it and come out the other side. My life is good, but I always feel something is missing. Most of you can relate to that, I think. What I'm trying to communicate is - get out now and get some help for yourself, and stop chasing a romantic fantasy that will, in fact, eat at your soul.