Not incompetent and deliberate

[Our abuse recovery guide]

So when I ask if it's possible that we were trained to be their emotional empaths, I am coming from a place of "is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"

Yes

This is how I felt with BPD mother when I spent time there last November.

But I would frame it this way (and I think this would feel different with a covert narcissist): we are both emotional empaths, except I am aware of my self, while she isn't. She doesn't "manipulate " using my empathy, my emotions, she feels them as their own!

So she mixes up my emotions with hers, while I read her perfectly and try to appease her.

But there is not appeasement possible, because I am not calm, I am PTSD. So it keeps on degenerating. I am split black, and everything becomes a mess.

I can read her perfectly and I do adapt my  behavior to appease her. In the case of BPD mother though, the only times I was able to calm her was when I was perfectly calm myself. When I am not, the dysregulation just keeps on going...she takes on MY stress and MY fear and makes them their own... If that makes sense.

I don't think the grooming was conscious... It just happened as a survival mode for me.

Just a guess but with a covert narcissist, I imagine there would be an extra layer of scapegoating... My BPD mother doesn't have a scapegoat or a golden child... It's part of her disease : the scapegoat and the golden child changes over time... I imagine covert narcissist would have a specific scapegoat because the abuse would be more "stable" in nature? Just an idea like that.

I also think the abuse would feel more "calculated"? I think, feeling like you were groomed might be an indicative in itself that you were dealing with a covert narcissist.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So when I ask if it's possible that we were trained to be their emotional empaths, I am coming from a place of "is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"

Yes

This is how I felt with BPD mother when I spent time there last November.

But I would frame it this way (and I think this would feel different with a covert narcissist): we are both emotional empaths, except I am aware of my self, while she isn't. She doesn't "manipulate " using my empathy, my emotions, she feels them as their own!

So she mixes up my emotions with hers, while I read her perfectly and try to appease her.

But there is not appeasement possible, because I am not calm, I am PTSD. So it keeps on degenerating. I am split black, and everything becomes a mess.

I can read her perfectly and I do adapt my  behavior to appease her. In the case of BPD mother though, the only times I was able to calm her was when I was perfectly calm myself. When I am not, the dysregulation just keeps on going...she takes on MY stress and MY fear and makes them their own... If that makes sense.

I don't think the grooming was conscious... It just happened as a survival mode for me.

Just a guess but with a covert narcissist, I imagine there would be an extra layer of scapegoating... My BPD mother doesn't have a scapegoat or a golden child... It's part of her disease : the scapegoat and the golden child changes over time... I imagine covert narcissist would have a specific scapegoat because the abuse would be more "stable" in nature? Just an idea like that.

I also think the abuse would feel more "calculated"? I think, feeling like you were groomed might be an indicative in itself that you were dealing with a covert narcissist.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Does it help in some ways to know what your mother does is deliberate and calculated? For me, it helps to know that my disordered relatives are deliberately cruel, and to feel less sorry and responsible for them.

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWwQpXcSU2g

Zachira- yes, it helps and then in a way, I feel used and humiliated. I think to her, I am just something to play around with. I spoke to her the other day and then to one of her home health providers and she told me a completely different thing than she told them. Then she also called me back to mention "how expensive her home health care is" - she drops this fact out - I think actually to say " ha ha I am spending all this money" I think to get us upset because she thinks we want it or just to show us that she can do whatever she wants with it or shock us, because we are more conscientious and frugal? I don't know what she's up to but she's doing that on purpose and she does it because we have reacted to it by showing concern.

It gets an emotional reaction from us as we don't want her to run out but now our concern becomes narcissistic supply to her I think.

I call her to check on her, no other reason but she sees this as an opportunity to try to mess with me.

So, if I didn't call her for a while, I felt bad about that and so called her. But she just plays me as if I have no idea what she's up to. I'm going to call less, not in reaction to her but that, there's no point. She's not going to see it as a connection, but an opportunity to be manipulative.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
It seems you really have got your mother's number, and that you are correct in concluding you are narcissistic supply to her. It takes a lot of courage and exploration to be able to face that this is the kind of mother we have. My heart goes out to you. It looks like your mother is going to do everything she can to hurt you both before and after she dies. You are doing less for your mother now and not contacting her as much. Does that help you to feel less impacted from her behaviors? I have spent many hours grieving how badly my mother treated me when she was alive and after she died, how she set things up so that I will never be free from all the family cruelty and how many losses that can not be made up for. Do you think things are set up so you will be mostly free from your mother's influence after she dies?

[Notwendy]

Zachira- I don't even think that far ahead, it's all an unknown. I think what makes a difference between me and other family members is that there are no financial connections to any family members- so no grounds for any of us to be in drama with each other in that manner. Our relationships are voluntary.

It's hard to imagine someone doing hurtful things to others like that, but I don't put it past her. I don't really want anything that belongs to her. I mostly cared about my father, but since he's been gone, I don't really care about anything she owns.

[zachira]

I am glad your relationship with your mother is voluntary. This gives you choices I wish I had.

[Notwendy]

Actually, I meant other family members- siblings, etc. I am sorry that you had significant financial ties to your cruel family members which led to drawn out drama with them. Fortunately, I don't have financial ties. We can choose to associate with each other or not and not have it tied to financial consequences.

I have no financial ties with BPD mother- but I wouldn't say my connection is all choice. I'd not choose to have contact with anyone who treats me like she does. Spiritually/religiously/morally, I feel an important obligation to that relationship- the relationship itself. That matters to me. But I also don't feel obligated to tolerate her behaviors.

[Couscous]

I’m beginning to realize that the personality disorder issue is a bit of a red herring. I’m seeing that it doesn’t really matter whether or not it’s BPD, NPD, ASPD, HPD or codependency. It’s the pattern of non-stop manipulativeness that is what is most problematic — at least in my family.

This article really crystalized this for me: https://psychcentral.com/lib/how-to-spot-manipulation#is-manipulation-psychological-abuse

[Notwendy]

Yes, it's the behaviors that are problematic. The labels are about clusters of behaviors- and the labels are probably more useful in the diagnosis/treatment area. The labels point to a cause of possible treatment/management.

For instance, a behavior could be a child not paying attention at school- but the causes could be several reasons: ADD, anxiety, family problems, learning difficulties. The problem for the teacher and parents is the not paying attention. The professionals need to look for the reasons so they can decide on how to treat/manage it if that is possible.

I agree, the manipulation and lying is a large part of the difficulties of dealing with someone with BPD/NPD and other disorders. The actual label for us may have less use for us as we aren't in the position of a professional doing more with it.

The BPD label has helped to understand some of the reasons behind the behaviors- poor sense of self, projection. But you are correct- it's the interpersonal behaviors that are the ones that cause the difficulties because we are in a family relationship with them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I personally think it might have made it easier to forgive my BPD mother, and to find back some sense of love and compassion for her, when I confirmed the label. I could suddenly learned more about the disorder, and what it meant for her and for me.

At the start, I felt incredible anger that I had to "excuse" her because she was BPD, but the more I healed, the more understanding and love I was able to find back, it it makes sense. As it turned out, I didn't have to force it... Feeling angry about it was just part of the journey.

So while she will still exhibit the behaviors that are problematic, I do feel a bit more strength now, and power, and detachment when I think about those behaviors .. but it's just a feeling, seeing how I have yet to officially break no contact. So this of course might actually all be a result from the no contact, and not from the "knowing the label" itself.

[Couscous]

Manipulative Personality Disorder would be a useful label IMHO.

[Notwendy]

I personally think it might have made it easier to forgive my BPD mother, and to find back some sense of love and compassion for her, when I confirmed the label. I could suddenly learned more about the disorder, and what it meant for her and for me.

The label led me to not take her behavior personally and realize it had nothing to do with me and that I can't change it. Before I hoped that maybe I could be "good enough" for her to treat me kindly but I see now that this isn't possible. A child doesn't have to be "good enough" for a mother to love them as if it is something they have to earn. That isn't unconditional love. Now, a child does need to learn acceptable behaviors to get along with people but that's different.

The NPD aspect of her allowed me to see where she manipulates me for her own needs and uses my empathy for her narcissistic supply. While I have "empathy" for her situation in general - the situation she's created for herself- at this point it's more of a personal value than something I am going to approach her with. It feels as if she's playing me like a cat with a toy and I don't want to allow her to do that.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The NPD aspect of her allowed me to see where she manipulates me for her own needs and uses my empathy for her narcissistic supply. While I have "empathy" for her situation in general - the situation she's created for herself- at this point it's more of a personal value than something I am going to approach her with. It feels as if she's playing me like a cat with a toy and I don't want to allow her to do that.

I am not in your situation, but if I project it on myself, I imagine that being able to label my mother as a covert narcissist, as opposed to a BPD, would somehow ease the guilt of being more firm and hard on my boundaries. Might be just me though... My mother is a textbook BPD, and while she exhibits many of the bad behaviors you observed in your mother, they still seem to be a bit less cruel and deliberate.

Do you feel the new label of covert narcissist helps at all relieve some of the guilt ? If there was any guilt really...maybe there wasn't too.

[Couscous]

  It feels as if she's playing me like a cat with a toy and I don't want to allow her to do that.

What are you thinking you could do to set limits around this behavior?

[Notwendy]

What are you thinking you could do to set limits around this behavior?

I am going to limit my contact with her even more. Although I feel uncomfortable not calling her after a while, it doesn't seem to matter how long it's been as she seems to see contact with me as an opportunity.

I hadn't called her in a while so I did and she spun a story to me on the phone that I knew was a complete lie, because I already knew the real one. I could tell she was manipulating me to set the stage for me to be kept in the dark about something. It was crafty and deliberate but I saw through it and something just changed for me. I just felt angry and disgusted. Not that I have much expectations of her but I think it just got to me that she's playing me--- again-- and there's no point in checking on her- she's only going to lie to me.

She has to see me as a fool and I feel like I am one to call her imagining that somehow maybe it will be for the good but I am just someone to mess with. I am not calling her. If she calls me, I may or may not answer but I will answer to see what she wants to talk about and if it's all lies, take it at that. But calling her is an invitation for her to mess with me and I see no reason to do that.

[zachira]

At the end of my mother's life, I did not call her. When she called me, I ended the conversation when it got to be too much for me. I really hated that our relationship had gotten to this point, and I could not take all the family dysfunction anymore that I had endured since I was born. We support your decision to go lower contact with your mother. You have been extremely kind and generous to your mother, and she does not appreciate your efforts. Being lied to is one of the most awful forms of abuse, especially when the lies are meant to manipulate and hurt you.

[Notwendy]

Thanks, Zachira, for your support.

There was something about that last phone call - the story she spun was complete BS, and deliberate and abusive but I didn't feel sad or hurt- I saw right through it and instead, felt angry and disgusted.

She doesn't have that many people who still show concern for her. It may be due to the pandemic or her, but her social circle is smaller and mostly she's with home health care. That is their job. You'd think she'd value a family relationship and maybe she does- except to her that value is an opportunity to manipulate. It's not that I expect her to change but that she's smart enough to know that it's in her best interest to not treat us like that- if even for selfish reasons- at least fake being decent.

But there's something about when I interact with her- she goes right into her game. She's ruthless and I could see this time that she really doesn't give a cr*p about me, and sees my calls as opportunities to manipulate for her own reasons- whatever they are.

[Methuen]

There was something about that last phone call - the story she spun was complete BS, and deliberate and abusive but I didn't feel sad or hurt- I saw right through it and instead, felt angry and disgusted. …But there's something about when I interact with her- she goes right into her game. She's ruthless and I could see this time that she really doesn't give a cr*p about me, and sees my calls as opportunities to manipulate for her own reasons- whatever they are.

I’m so sorry NW.  i think there comes a time when we accept it for what it is.  Just like the author of your slate article, you chose “you”.  You have done your best, and that is all you can do.  You have a whole community here that supports you. 

[Notwendy]

Thanks Methuen,

It's unfathomable to me as I can't even imagine thinking this way about people. The only people truly invested in her well being are her family. Everyone else is paid to assist her. It's counterintuitive to be cruel to family who are concerned- but that's her disorder and she must get some satisfaction out of lying and manipulating us- that narcissistic supply.

It's just so strangely warped to do this. 

[Notwendy]

I haven't called her since this post, and she mostly doesn't call me, but she did - so I answered.  I haven't gone NC with her, just less contact. She wants to talk to my kids when they visit at Thanksgiving weekend.  If they don't want to that is their choice. She was manipulative about it - that is the probable reason for her call. We'd have probably called her anyway on a holiday- we usually do, out of courtesy.

One of her home health care helpers is "leaving" soon. I suspect that this person has either quit or she dismissed them. BPD mother prefers helpers who don't know her, and so she can tell them what she wants them to know, rather than people who have been helping her for a while and have seen her behaviors.

It's a familiar pattern. I am concerned for her in the universal sense- sad that she seems to be in this cycle of behavior, this kind of control relationship with anyone around her. But this is the situation she has set up for herself and she has resisted any other suggestions or attempts for something different. I don't feel as emotionally concerned though as I know now - this is her choice- she's had other choices.

I feel for the home health workers who try to help her - and yet by seeing that she engages in similar drama with them that she does with her immediate family shows me that it isn't about us but how she relates to other people.

[zachira]

I feel for you having to go lower and lower contact with your mother as she reaches the end of her life. I had to do that with my mother and it was not how I wanted things to end. I wanted to keep being nice to her and reach an equilibrium in the relationship, in the sense that it would be far from a rewarding relationship yet setting the boundaries would be working without having to set stricter ones. I do believe that the stress of growing older, just make mothers like ours behave worse and worse, as they have less power to control situations and people as their mental and physical health gets worse. This then requires us to set stronger boundaries, and it never gets better. It sounds like as your mother becomes the one to initiate phone calls and you call her less and less that you may experience what I did, that the phone calls just become more unbearable and you will have to hang up sooner. My heart goes out to you, as I know how hurtful it is to be treated so badly by your own mother when you would like to end things on a more positive note with her, and she is not going to give you that.

[madeline7]

My very elderly uBPDm in a residential care facility has mostly stopped answering phone calls. When she needs something, she will call and on rare occasions, she will pick up the phone. She is not cognitively impaired, and it seems that she is deliberately self isolating and giving us the silent treatment. Although I do think she is depressed and lonely, I also think she is consciously doing this to punish us. I feel likes it's a long "con", and in the end, she wants us to suffer and feel "guilty" that we abandoned her there at the end of her life. I am trying to maintain the same amount of LC, but she is so manipulative, even in her advanced state, and is playing the hermit waif card to the point where she will be a shoe in for the Oscar in February. In some ways it is a relief to have VERY lc, but in others it is difficult because I do have empathy and would like to talk and visit occasionally. At this point, I am older and having some health issues, as is my husband. I thought about what would happen if there was a true emergency or bad news to be given to her. She would be playing her mind games and would not pick up the phone. A family member would have to call the nursing station to have a caregiver deliver her the news. At this point in my life, I should be able to focus on me without navigating the storm that is my Mother. Regardless of LC or NC, she continues to be a drain.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I can only imagine the kind of impacts this whole situation would have on someone, the kind of toll it must take. My current situation is so different from yours, and so it is hard to find the right words.

What I can see though, and understand through your writing, is that it takes an incredible discipline to keep one from falling into the drama triangle, and you have it. I can only imagine how challenging this must feel at times, yet you hold on to your boundaries, seemingly keeping the fear, obligation and guilt at bay. I wanted to recognize your strength and self-awareness.

Also this :  

Madeline7, reading your story I mean... Of course I'd like to recognize you too and extend support.  

And zacchira, I am sorry you didn't get the final days you had hoped for with your mother. I think none of us will... And so you are right that we will likely grieve our mother, or the mother we never had, most,  if not all of our life.

[madeline7]

Thank you for your support Riv3rWOlf, it means a lot to me.

[Notwendy]

Thanks so much everyone-

Zachira- it's interesting you mentioned she's not going to give us peace of mind at this time, because my father didn't, and I think I in some ways hoped I might be able to make things better with my mother. Not that I could change her, but at least try for something different. I don't think things are hostile, but it seems every phone call has an agenda- and is manipulative, and it feels creepy.

Madeline- I understand the feeling of being punished and I have wondered about that too.

She just can't seem to grasp the idea of a cooperative relationship with anyone. The only possible relationship that is acceptable to her is master and servant. You have to be completely submissive to her- and not ask questions, not say anything except "yes" and do as she tells you to, to the very detail. Nobody can work with that. Her helpers try but she doesn't cooperate. She acts waify and then if anyone tries to help her, she won't let them. Then she blames you for not helping her.

It's possible she's "punishing" me, but she doesn't make the connection between her behavior and my wanting to keep a distance from her. What is confusing is that she seems to be doing this to Golden Child too. I don't know why she'd do that.

I think she may be stuck in some kind of replay of trauma with anyone who gets close to her. To her we become an "abuser" in some way and then, she "defends" herself. She will inevitably see people in that role- find something we did, or didn't do and then blame us for "hurting" her. She seems to sabotage attempts to be nice to her- I don't think she can see them, or the intentions of others who might actually be trying to be nice to her. In this replay, she takes control, humiliates others by putting them in subservient position, and is also abusive. The most logical explanation for this is that someone must have abused her along the way, probably when she was young and felt helpless. Now, she's in control and perhaps giving the "abuser" what she thinks they deserve but now, it's with people who never did that and wouldn't do that and we can't change how she feels or thinks.

Riv3rW0lf- thanks for your support. All our situations are different yet, there are similarities. I think we are all trying to do the best we can with a disordered family member, and sometimes NC is the best with can do, and for others, it's LC. While it is a challenge, in a way, seeing things from an adult perspective has helped me to understand what was going on when I was a teen, when I didn't understand what was going on. I kept trying to be "good enough" for my parents. I will still try to do my best to maintain a cordial relationship with my mother if possible but I don't need her approval to do that.

[zachira]

Your mother sounds a lot like my mother in that she can't handle people being kind to her. My mother would often go into a rage and say terrible untrue things about people who were incredibly kind to her for many years after she got sick; she never made any effort to reciprocate or acknowledge their kindness and generosity. I went out of my way to thank the people who were so kind and generous to mom for so many years both before and after mom died. It seems that with our mothers that perhaps the capacity for emotional empathy is missing which includes being unable to feel inside what it is like to feel cared for and loved by another human being. It almost like someone being genuinely kind to our mothers triggers their fears of abandonment and rage, because they can't internalize the loving feelings, as deep down they feel unlovable, can't be loved or love others.  

[Couscous]

NW, have you and your sibling ever sat down with your mother for a formal family business meeting to discuss her senior care plan and asked her the questions like the ones in the link below?

https://www.realsimple.com/health/preventative-health/aging-caregiving/questions-ask-aging-parents

[Notwendy]

Couscous- we have tried many times to have this discussion with her. She has written a general will and a POA ( GC and I have POA).

She will not disclose any financial information with us. Discussions about staying in her home or not lead nowhere.

These are the kinds of questions we have been trying to have with her and she won't do it. She gets agitated if someone asks her questions. We are not allowed to ask her any questions on any topic. And also we have no way to know if she's telling the truth or not.

The dynamics with her are- if she knows we want something - then she won't let us have it. We have tried many times to have discussions with her and it's evident she won't do it. I don't even bring up these topics as it's apparent she won't discuss them.

[Notwendy]

These are the kind of questions I naively tried to have with my parents when my father first became ill. My friends were doing these with their parents and I assumed it would work out in a similar way. I was not familiar with BPD at the time. I knew there was some kind of disorder with my mother but I still believed, if I was "good enough" I could get through to my parents and they'd see my true intentions were good.

And it failed.


For a grown child to have this discussion with a parent, I think the parent needs to be able to be honest with them, and also consideration goes both ways. These questions assume there is love between both of them. The parent also needs to be willing to share some control with the adult child over personal matters and finances. There needs to be mutual trust and respect for this kind of sharing to work. None of this was there with my parents. They were not loving, not kind, and not respectful. They had no reason to not trust me, but I don't trust my BPD mother.

I had hoped this kind of discussion would happen when GC visited, without me. I have already accepted she won't share this information with me, but surprisingly, not with GC either.

BPD mother  did agree to have this discussion with a nurse coordinator. I knew about that plan for that, but she lied to me and told me she wasn't going to do it when all along she had this plan. She did speak to the nurse but told the nurse she wasn't going to speak to family.  At this point, I have stepped away from any kind of discussion like this with her- I think it's clear she won't do it.

[Couscous]

So technically speaking she is having paranoid delusions, which is a common feature of BPD, but also of dementia. This might be something worth bringing up with her doctor.

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/symptoms-and-diagnosis/delusions