Not incompetent and deliberate

[Our abuse recovery guide]

GC's visit didn't bring us any closer to reasoning with BPD mother. It's clearer she needs more assistance and home health is getting expensive as she needs more of it. This raises the question of what her resources are and what she can afford and still we have no sense of that as she won't share that information with us.

This is so different from the arrangements my friends have with their elderly parents and from how my in laws behaved. My in laws were transparent with their children at a certain point where it was apparent they would need some assistance with daily tasks. They were difficult at times, difficult in the usual sense as people age and don't want to give up autonomy. But mostly they have been agreeable.

Moments of being difficult are normal. This is beyond that, it's quite extraordinary. Some family members have noticed and asked us if she's becoming incompetent because it's so strange to be this financially reckless. The home health coordinator insists otherwise, says she's quite mentally competent- this has to be by her own design.

While she's keeping her finances to herself, she's open about the recklessness, talking about how expensive her care is, leaving parts of bank statements out- GC was concerned that she'd leave this out for anyone to see- and discussed this with her. This is just one example of some of the things she did that raised our concern. I don't think this was her being careless- I think she put it there for GC to see it and she's talking about how much money she's spending for us to hear it.

Our first concern is that she has enough for her own needs and this makes us worried. But I have another idea. She's smarter than to compromise herself and she doesn't reveal financial information usually. So what is going on?

This has been hard to figure out as she knows we aren't interested in her money- so why does she do this? If she knows we want something- then she has used that for control. What we want is the information- so we know she's got what she needs- we want the information because we are concerned for her- so- that's it- she knows we want the information. And letting out some reckless spending makes us more concerned. But she's smarter than to compromise herself. I think this is deliberate on her part.

It's cruel and inconsiderate on her part too. Couscous mentioned she may be NPD- she has more BPD behaviors but there is NPD and lack of empathy. I have seen at times where she seems to enjoy being cruel. What she's been doing is beyond being careless, or forgetful. She's not careless or forgetful. She's doing this on purpose.

On my part? I believe she's smarter than to compromise herself, so the worry isn't necessary. I am actually more disgusted at her behavior as it's become obvious it's by her design.

[Notwendy]

GC's visit didn't bring us any closer to reasoning with BPD mother. It's clearer she needs more assistance and home health is getting expensive as she needs more of it. This raises the question of what her resources are and what she can afford and still we have no sense of that as she won't share that information with us.

This is so different from the arrangements my friends have with their elderly parents and from how my in laws behaved. My in laws were transparent with their children at a certain point where it was apparent they would need some assistance with daily tasks. They were difficult at times, difficult in the usual sense as people age and don't want to give up autonomy. But mostly they have been agreeable.

Moments of being difficult are normal. This is beyond that, it's quite extraordinary. Some family members have noticed and asked us if she's becoming incompetent because it's so strange to be this financially reckless. The home health coordinator insists otherwise, says she's quite mentally competent- this has to be by her own design.

While she's keeping her finances to herself, she's open about the recklessness, talking about how expensive her care is, leaving parts of bank statements out- GC was concerned that she'd leave this out for anyone to see- and discussed this with her. This is just one example of some of the things she did that raised our concern. I don't think this was her being careless- I think she put it there for GC to see it and she's talking about how much money she's spending for us to hear it.

Our first concern is that she has enough for her own needs and this makes us worried. But I have another idea. She's smarter than to compromise herself and she doesn't reveal financial information usually. So what is going on?

This has been hard to figure out as she knows we aren't interested in her money- so why does she do this? If she knows we want something- then she has used that for control. What we want is the information- so we know she's got what she needs- we want the information because we are concerned for her- so- that's it- she knows we want the information. And letting out some reckless spending makes us more concerned. But she's smarter than to compromise herself. I think this is deliberate on her part.

It's cruel and inconsiderate on her part too. Couscous mentioned she may be NPD- she has more BPD behaviors but there is NPD and lack of empathy. I have seen at times where she seems to enjoy being cruel. What she's been doing is beyond being careless, or forgetful. She's not careless or forgetful. She's doing this on purpose.

On my part? I believe she's smarter than to compromise herself, so the worry isn't necessary. I am actually more disgusted at her behavior as it's become obvious it's by her design.

[I Am Redeemed]

Do you think she is trying to get one or both of you to do something like move closer to her and take over the caregiving duties yourselves instead of paying for home health?

Or do you think she is just trying to get you to be concerned and ask her about her financial situation so she can withhold the information and feel "in control"?

I can definitely understand you feeling disgusted at this behavior. It sounds like she is playing a game with you and your sibling just for her own needs, whatever that need may be (validation, needing to feel important, in control, or whatever it is).

[Notwendy]

Or do you think she is just trying to get you to be concerned and ask her about her financial situation so she can withhold the information and feel "in control"?

This one.

I was also thinking she uses material things to control and get back at people. Like she would give something that belonged to my father to an acquaintance and not me because she was angry at me and she knew I wanted it. If she knows we want something - she makes sure we don't get it. She's also been destructive of our personal property if she's angry or confiscated something and threatened to ruin it. Things like calling me up and saying "if you ever want to see that childhood rocker in your room here you had better..." Or "I am going to give your father's books to the community yard sale". or offer something to me and when I come to get it she changes her mind.

She knows we want this information and I am certain that since she hasn't given it to us she doesn't intend to. I also think it's possible that she doesn't want us to have any of her possessions or property so she'd rather ruin it, waste it, give it away instead. Her not telling us about taking out a home equity loan was an example of that. She didn't have the courtesy to let us know. It's her house to do what she wants with it, but I'd hope she'd at least told us to keep us informed.

We have concern and empathy for her but I am starting to wonder if she's aware of this and is using it for control.

[madeline7]

When my elderly uBPDm became widowed and leaned on me and my siblings, I went to an eldercare attorney to find out what my legal responsibility was to care for her, and when she started to dysregulate on a regular basis without my Dad around as a buffer, I reached out to her Dr, knowing that he might not be able to legally speak to me, but I reached out anyway to share my concerns. This helped me in terms of what was seen as a requirement by the outside professional world, however, it did little to alleviate me feeling obligated and guilty. At least I knew I did everything that was required of me, and there was documentation that I was not "negligent", and doing the best I could with a difficult and irrational Mother. In fact on one ER visit, the ER Dr initially thought my Mom was either confused due to a UTI or had the beginnings of dementia. When me and my sister spoke outside her room as she was in full agitation mode, we explained that she was a borderline. When the Dr went back into the room, she gave my Mom an ultimatum to cooperate with the intake. When my Mom complied she realized we must be right about her mental illness, as her "confusion and agitation" miraculously lifted. After the assessment the Dr took us outside and said "I feel sorry for you girls". She was not speaking to girls, me and my sisters were in our late 50's and 60's at the time. Regardless, it is difficult to see the struggles she is having with aging, but I am aging as well (we are now in our 60's and 70's), so the focus has shifted finally back to self care for us "girls". What a ride this has been. But now Mom is in the back seat and I am in the drivers seat.

[zachira]

It seems your mother gets narcissistic supply from upsetting you, and she knows not disclosing her finances to you, looking like she is being financially reckless is very upsetting to you. Perhaps you would have more peace of mind if you knew that there is no way you would have to take care of your mother if she were to go broke.

[Notwendy]

I don't have any financial obligation to take care of her. Fortunately I have a bit of an idea of her income and know it's enough to meet her needs in some assisted livings or skilled care if she were to need that, but possibly not one she would choose.

She had told GC they'd discuss all this during GC's visit. I thought perhaps it would go better with GC alone but it was the same - nothing got done. I think I had a glimmer of hope things might be different. She has had many chances to do this with us. I am just processing the reality of this- she has no intention to do it. One idea is that, rather than go broke, she may be Ok and if we knew that, we might not be concerned for her= less narcissistic supply?

At this point I am more angry than concerned- angry that she'd be so dismissive of her children's concern for her, and realizing it may just be narcissistic supply to her.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Hope that things will change is usually the last thing to happen before we can let go of the overwhelming emotions that we feel ever time we are being used for narcissistic supply by the disordered people in our lives. When the disordered person is our mother, we can never completely let go of wishing we had a mother who was capable of loving her children. You might try telling your mother things that really don't concern you that they do concern you, and let her use those for her narcissistic supply. It really has been hard for me to be completely dishonest with my disordered family members and their enablers yet it has helped me gain considerable freedom and peace even though it feels icky for me to be inauthentic with disordered family members and their enablers yet very necessary to protect my wellbeing. What do you think?

[Notwendy]

Yes, mostly I don't have hope for a mother-daughter relationship, but I still can be shocked at her behavior. I understand the fake it part - to have space for your own privacy. There's not much I can do about her behavior- she is who she is.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
It sounds like processing how hurtful your mother's behaviors are and moving on quickly are some of your ongoing challenges. With my dysfunctional family members, I still am shocked and hurt at how cruel they can be. It seems the more I set better boundaries with them, the worse their behavior gets. We can never outdo people who live to hurt others because they feel so terrible inside. Nothing angers them more than being found out. I think your mother at some level gets it that you have her number and she must be furious.

[Notwendy]

Yes, it's a process- moving on takes its own course- and at each stage when we are reminded it's not a normal situation.

[Riv3rW0lf]

We have concern and empathy for her but I am starting to wonder if she's aware of this and is using it for control.

Notwendy, I think it is a normal reaction, and even healthy for you to be angry at her for how she has been treating you. A "lack of empathy" is the textbook sign of NPD, as opposed to BPD, and you shared often that she didn't seem to show empathy... Narcissists can use cognitive empathy to "blend in" and get into your head though.

I have seen my brother smirks when I was sharing some very hurtful memories about my childhood. It was a quick view into his psyche. It gave me the creep and I started wondering if he hadn't develop some kind of NPD. And I do think he did. But his persona is one of a spiritual leader, he built his own kind of cult, all based on his skills to read people, on his cognitive empathy.

https://psychcentral.com/blog/liberation/2018/07/how-the-narcissist-hurts-you-using-cognitive-empathy#Why-the-Narcissists-Lack-of-Empathy-Concept-is-a-Myth

It is a real possibility that she is using YOUR empathy to fill her narcissistic supply. To me, my brother is a communal narcissist, he has a grandiose persona, while your mother is likely a covert narcissist. It can look a lot like borderline, but isn't borderline. My BPD mother has a lot of empathy, and it is part of what makes it so hard to be no contact with her. I know, that deep within her, she IS good, she IS loving, she WANTS things to go well, she WANTS to be a good mother and makes us feel loved. But she is impulsive, she rages, and then she beats herself up for it, but she just cannot keep herself from doing it, so she rages more. This is completely different than what your mother seems to be deliberately doing to you. It sometimes feels like she wants to torture you emotionally and psychologically, more than a loss emotional of control.

I think it would be very hard to categorize a fear of abandonment VS the rage generated from feeling rejected that a narcissist would experience. My mother, for example, is in real pain when she feels abandoned, she is not enraged, it's deep hurt and pain, and she feels it's because there is something wrong with her, and she protects herself by projecting what she feels is wrong with her onto us, blaming us, and screaming at us, making us feel worthless, which comes out as rage, but then I can see her shake and she cries in her sleep. There is just a deep hurt that I don't think narcissists would let others see? pwBPD do let you see it once in a while... They can show vulnerability. They have a "lost child" mode where they just need you to help them and save them... and it is a real mode, they are genuinely "in awe" of you, as a protector. Have you seen this mode with your mother? Or is she always seemingly playing games?  

I do think a covert narcissist would use your empathy against you to keep you around for narcissistic supply.

[Turkish]

She's smarter than to compromise herself and she doesn't reveal financial information usually

This might work until it doesn't. Yet we've all heard about people that remain cognitively competent into their 90s...

[Notwendy]

Turkish- yes, I think she will want to maintain her control for as long as she is able to.

 Riv3rW0lf- that's an interesting article and a lot of it seems to fit. She is able to "read" people- so maybe it's more accurate to say she has no emotional or compassionate empathy.  There's no warmth to her, she's not affectionate.

She does use people- to get them to do things for her and she acts superior to others. It's hard to see her as purely NPD though as she has so many borderline behaviors too. I do think NPD/BPD can overlap. I had seen her as getting people to do things for her as meeting the need but she wants people to do things for her that she is able to do and that need seems large- narcissistic supply makes sense.

I liked the line "does it feel like you are being tortured?"  Sometimes and sometimes it's an icky feeling. Being around her feels uncomfortable as it feels as if the interaction is manipulative- like she has something she wants but you don't know exactly what it is.

So I looked at description of a covert narcissist parent and it fits- all of them.

Seeing things in this way makes sense. While I do want to act respectfully to her, because she is my mother, because of my own value system, I can see that it isn't reciprocal.

Constant disappointment: If the parent expresses consistent disappointment, no matter the child’s achievements, they could be a covert narcissist.

Physical absence: A covert narcissist may not be interested in being physically present with the child. Birthdays, holidays, and graduations may not seem important.
Emotional absence: If they are physically present, they may not be emotionally. They could often ignore the child and limited communication.

Anger when children need attention: With the enduring self-centeredness, a covert narcissist will become annoyed or irritated when the child needs time and attention.

Exploiting the children for personal gain: A covert narcissist will find ways to benefit from the child, either financially, at work, or with relationships. The child becomes a bargaining tool.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy,

I think it is good that you are lifting the veil on your mother true self. I agree with you that there are overlaps between BPD and NPD, especially with our own FOG and biases, it is hard to see and be sure. We get confused looking at it all... For me, the no contact helped a lot in seeing things with more neutrality, in seeing the good sides of my mother, while also recognizing her impulsivity, rage and shame. 

Like I read you wrote to other members many times : labels are useful to develop and find the proper tools to help us deal with our loved one with BPD or NPD.

I don't think a covert narcissist should be validated the same way a borderline needs. It exposes you, and makes you seem weak and manipulable. I think you need to remain much more guarded emotionally with covert narcissists.  

[Notwendy]

I agree- I have even seen behaviors that lean to the psychopath area- she seems to enjoy manipulating and hurting people. Not in a criminal way- not at that level, but at the interpersonal level.

I think what has got me thinking more about this is that GC visited her, and she alluded to discussing her plans/affairs at that time but it was the same old dynamics and it's become clear she doesn't intend to do that. In a way, it's cruel to keep this information from grown children and I think this is intentional. I still have empathy for her situation but am less emotionally invested in what she does. She's making her own choices.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I still have empathy for her situation but am less emotionally invested in what she does. She's making her own choices.

This sounds incredibly healthy to me.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
It seems you are finally understanding the narcissistic part of your mother. I have found that the covert narcissist description fits with many disordered people who I am so confused by and who don't meet the description of an overt narcissist. With the covert narcissist, it seems to be all about deliberately manipulating people so they can be in control and planning so carefully their actions, that most people never get it. Does knowing that your mother is a covert narcissist change anything about the ways you interact with your mother or with people involved in her care?

[Notwendy]

I feel sorry for her health care workers. She's abusive to them. I wouldn't blame them if they didn't put up with it. As for her, I still will respect that she is my mother and a human, but at the moment I don't want  much interaction with her.

[Methuen]

I feel sorry for her health care workers. She's abusive to them. I wouldn't blame them if they didn't put up with it. As for her, I still will respect that she is my mother and a human, but at the moment I don't want  much interaction with her.

 

I do think a covert narcissist would use your empathy against you to keep you around for narcissistic supply.

This got my attention.  "Covert narcissist".  I've never heard of this before.  For my years on this forum, I've always dismissed narcissist in my mom, as I've always associated narcissism with those who have feelings of grandiosity...

Since reading this thread, I've been researching "covert narcissist".   A lot of it fits.  Interesting.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This got my attention.  "Covert narcissist".  I've never heard of this before.  For my years on this forum, I've always dismissed narcissist in my mom, as I've always associated narcissism with those who have feelings of grandiosity...

Since reading this thread, I've been researching "covert narcissist".   A lot of it fits.  Interesting.

I am glad this new information is of help to you, Methuen.

At first, when I was completely entangled within my mother's emotional world, and reading on BPD, it appeared clear that she was borderline, but I also ended up researching a lot of other labels, just in case. Interestingly enough, it was reading a lot about your experiences that made it clear for me that my mother is almost a textbook borderline case. She has narcissistic traits but they are much less pronounced than what I often read on this forum.

Reading your stories showed a lot of differences in terms of nastiness, and entitlement. It's not that BPD mother isn't entitled, but when I call her out on it, she can accept it more than a covert narcissist would. She can show empathy. She rages and is easily upset, but she isn't actively trying to ruin me. There is an underlying competition, but a lot of love also... Your mothers, to Notwendy and you, do feel more cold and cruel than my own mother is.

It doesn't make my mother safe, but there truly is a tender side to the abuse of a borderline.

I only truly realized it by being no contact for a while though... Distance has a way to neutralize the emotional biases we have. It helped me see a bigger, clearer picture of her goods and bads.

In Notwendy and yours case, there is seemingly a lot of torture going on too... More manipulations than emotional reactions.

There is a psychopath protector in my mother's psyche, but it comes out to protect her when she feels vulnerable. In your mother's case, it feels like this psychopath protector is almost always active? Maybe I am wrong though.

[madeline7]

This has been an interesting revelation for me. My uBPDm may be a covert narcissist as well. At times she talks the talk but never walks the walk in terms of authentic consideration for others. It seems she can be genuine when that behavior will get her what she wants. But it's always about her. And getting what she needs and wants, and using others to get those needs and wants met. I think she wants to love me, but I truly feel she doesn't have the capacity for authentic love. She is so damaged and I am still working in my senior years to untangle myself from her web of disordered behavior. I am doing so much better, and each post and revelation, and support from this board helps!

[zachira]

I think of my disordered family members and their enablers in terms of having split personalities. What am I seeing today? Is it the narcissistic side that is showing or more of the BPD? Having multiple personalities is more common than previously thought, and certainly there are many disordered individuals who regularly split between being very different people at different times depending on the circumstances and who they are with, without necessarily meeting the criteria for having more than one personality. The discussion on covert narcissists is very helpful to me. I realize that the covert narcissist is often far more manipulative and evil in many ways than the overt narcissist and person with BPD. I have been trying to figure out why I have such a hard time figuring out certain people, and it is the covert narcissism that really fits a lot of scenarios where I have been hurt by people who covertly manipulate others so they can be in control. I am thinking it doesn't matter what labels we use to describe the disordered people in our lives, that it is more about knowing who we are, and seeing the behaviors of disordered people for what they really are. If our mother is a covert narcissist, than we know we have got to be on our toes, to protect ourselves from her manipulations and how she uses people to be in control of every situation. If our mother fits the label for BPD and does not seem to be a narcissist, than maybe we can be more sympathetic to her mental illness. I have known many people with BPD who could be extremely empathetic at times; it is just they have no empathy at other times. The narcissists I know/have known clearly are incapable of affective empathy, though cognitive empathy is often a big tool in their arsenal to manipulate others. With the overt narcissist, there is more bragging and more clear manifestations that they deliberately hurt people and don't care though there is plenty of covert narcissism behind the scenes. With the covert narcissism, so much of the narcissism is hidden except to those who have been most directly targeted by the covert narcissist. Some people can be both overt and covert narcissists depending on the situation; this is particularly true of my NPD sister and some of my other disordered family members. Thank you everybody for your contributions to this thread. It leaves me with so much to think about as I continue to learn how to better deal with people with whom it is not safe to share myself, and to be assertive with when putting up better boundaries earlier on.

[Methuen]

Empathy.  I'm guessing many people on this board have high empathy skills.  It would seem to me that it comes with the territory.

This talk about "cognitive empathy" sent me to do more research.  I now see that there is a difference between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. 

I'm guessing all of us here are pretty good at both of them. It was a necessary survival skill.

Since our parent with BPD raised us to be their caretakers (emotional incest, parentification), does it make sense to suggest they trained us to be their emotional empaths? And this is how they manipulate us?

[zachira]

Methuen,
It is very possible that your mother trained you to be her emotional empath and caretaker from birth. Can you ever remember a moment in your life time when your mother showed genuine empathy for you and put your needs first? My two brothers were targeted to be mom's caretaker, and neither ever married as my mother with BPD sabotaged all their relationships with girlfriends. I can remember when one of my brothers was in kindergarten and he was friends with the little girl across the street who was in his class. Mom told me with absolute panic in her voice how upset she was that they liked each other.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Empathy.  I'm guessing many people on this board have high empathy skills.  It would seem to me that it comes with the territory.

This talk about "cognitive empathy" sent me to do more research.  I now see that there is a difference between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy.  

I'm guessing all of us here are pretty good at both of them. It was a necessary survival skill.

Since our parent with BPD raised us to be their caretakers (emotional incest, parentification), does it make sense to suggest they trained us to be their emotional empaths? And this is how they manipulate us?

I'm personally not sure that one can be "trained" to develop empathy... I think it is a matter of sensitivity, and partly a biological, innate characteristic one has when they are born. I think some people just have more sensitivity and empathy than others...

Looking at my daughter and son, it is clear to me that she is much more empathetic than he is. If he cries, she cries. he does too but for her, it's much more intense. It's like she feels what he feels ten fold. At three, she asked me if I still loved her when I was angry, because she noticed she didn't love me when she was angry... She just has this innate emotional sensitivity? I didn't train her for it. She just has it.

And I am sure you observed the same kind of sensitivity in your family, since you all have a mother with a PD. To me, this makes it more probable that our children and ourselves are highly sensitive too, or have high empathy?

I think part of the issue with BPD is exactly that... They are empaths, but trauma makes them shut down, and it's like they can't differentiate what they feel from what someone else is feeling sometimes. Covert narcissist on the other end just seems to lack emotional empathy altogether... While BPD might have too much of it? Which coupled with trauma make them lose themselves maybe... I don't know... Some thoughts..

My stepmother told me recently she had to learn that too, without BPD, she just... Felt others more than her, and she had to learn to differentiate who's emotion it was she was feeling, by asking herself what she felt seeing the other person emotion, until it became second nature. She just feels everyone around, even more than she feels herself.

I don't know if this helps but all this to say : chances are you were already very empathetic, you weren't trained, you just are. And I actually think this empathy might be why we were able to "make it out" without developing a PD ourselves ? But I'm just hypothesing here based on my observations on this forum so far... Maybe it is also that we had a stronger tendency to "dissociate", that we were biologically more resilient than our mothers were.

High sensitivity, strong empathy and low resilience, are the traits that really jumps out at me when I think about BPD. A covert narcissist might be high sensitivity, low empathy and low resilience, while we might have high sensitivity, high empathy and high resilience?

They did find a gene for resiliency recently. I mean, it's still the early stages of the research but... There is a gene for everything, isn't there?  

[Notwendy]

I think traits like low empathy, narcissism, and being an empath have a genetic component. My mother's FOO tends to have narcissism traits, my father's side, more empathetic.

I do think that we can get better at a skill with practice and our cognitive empathy was probably a useful skill that we got good at. We can read BPD mother's expressions in an instant and know if she's dysregulated and this helped us to know to keep a distance as kids. It's things like a vacant look in her eyes, slightly flushed cheeks- small signs but we can read her face and tell- and so I am aware of these subtle changes in other people.

Actually, BPD mother is good at this too. She is very good at "reading" people but what she does with this information is different. We combine this with emotional empathy for the person. I think for her, it's useful information but she doesn't feel emotional empathy for the person.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy, that's a very good point. I was talking about emotional empathy when I said empathy in my last answer... I should have taken the time to differentiate cognitive and emotional. 

[Methuen]

On this forum, there have been so many discussions and advice about us needing to learn to "let them feel their own feelings", and "not take on their feelings for them".  I was a beneficiary of this advice.  Until I read it, I didn't have the awareness it was happening.  That was a big light bulb moment that has pitted me on a long journey of recovery which is still in progress.  I believe it was Zachira (thank you!) who posted it in a reply to me about 3 years ago, and it often comes up in threads over and over again.  I have since passed the advice on to many other newbie posters when it is appropriate.

I guess this is where I was coming from when I asked the question: Since our parent with BPD raised us to be their caretakers (emotional incest, parentification), does it make sense to suggest they trained us to be their emotional empaths? And this is how they manipulate us?

So for those of us who are aware we were subjected to emotional incest and parentification, we probably have pretty good skills at recognizing when mama is getting emotional.  I for one always tried hard to "make her feel better" by doing exactly what she asked promptly and "perfectly", and going above and beyond doing "special things" for her, to win her love.  

Now I know this wasn't attainable.  When she isn't pleased by something, she splits and I become all black.

The constant is that I have always loved her and tried to take care of her.  Somehow, I always felt bad for her.  I definitely felt her feelings for her, and tried to do everything I could to make her feel better.  The pattern I noticed after Zachira's comment, was that when mom was happy, I was happy.  When mom was dysregulating, I felt terrible, and would try to fix it so both mom and I could feel better.  I tried so hard to be the "good daughter".  I failed, but I also know it's not my fault.

So since reading about covert narcissist on threads recently, and doing some research, and also reading about cognitive/emotional empaths, I've become quite curious.

I think it is widely acknowledged that nature and nurture have interplay.  When it comes to traits and behavior, yes we inherit certain genes, but environmental influences also play a role in how those genes get expressed.

So when I ask if it's possible that we were trained to be their emotional empaths, I am coming from a place of "is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"  At the moment, this seems like a distinct possibility for my situation, although other's may have a different situation.  I'm more wondering, is it even possible?  If it is possible, it certainly makes it understandable how easily I am manipulated by her, whereas my husband isn't.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-narcissist-in-your-life/202006/7-ways-covert-narcissist-parents-groom-children-abuse

NW, I suspect you and I share some similar experiences and values.  We both have chosen to remain present for our mother's, and stay involved in their lives.  Does any of this resonate with you?

[Notwendy]

"is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"

I believe this but in my situation, I think the groomer was my father more than my mother. I think she was the main groomer for GC who she preferred. GC is far more concerned with her feelings than I am, but I wanted approval from my father and this is how we kids got approval- try to make BPD mother feel better, which also included not upsetting her and obeying her.

I don't think this was conscious on my father's part. He was her enabler/co-dependent and his focus was to "make her feel better" so it made sense he'd be disapproving of anything we did that didn't also align with his goal and approving of anything that did.

[Methuen]

"is it possible we were groomed to take on their feelings for them, so that they could feel better?"

I believe this but in my situation, I think the groomer was my father more than my mother. I think she was the main groomer for GC who she preferred. GC is far more concerned with her feelings than I am, but I wanted approval from my father and this is how we kids got approval- try to make BPD mother feel better, which also included not upsetting her and obeying her.

Ah yes.  However it happens, I guess the result ends up being similar - and not great for the ones at the receiving end.