Trying to hold it together

[Our abuse recovery guide]

It's such an exhausting struggle navigating a dysfunctional mom.

Sometimes it's just overwhelming.

She's 86... with longevity into the late 90's in her family.
-Struggles to use a walker in her own home.  Moves as little as possible.
-is a huge fall risk.  Has had 3 falls in the past that have left her weak
-doesn't eat much.  Lifelong issue with eating disorder and body image.
-lost 90% of her vision in her bad eye since she cancelled home care which was putting the drops in her eyes after an endophthalmitis infection.  The other eye has significant vision loss too because she has macular degeneration.
- hearing loss.  Even with her hearing aids in, she doesn't hear us ring the doorbell, enter her house, or say hello when she's in her chair which is 3 feet away (her chair faces away from the door)
- advanced Parkinson's
- mini strokes since 2015
- anxious personality
- mild cognitive dementia

I couldn't handle her emotional abuse any more, so I went back to work.  She's just mean, and vengeful and wretched and raging when she's not feeling well or needs to dump her negative emotions.  She has treated me like   too many times.  I don't want to be around her.  Borderline fits perfectly except for suicidal thoughts.  Covert narcissist is also a good fit.
Spending more than an hour with her puts me in a tailspin.  Between two jobs I work full time, just to avoid her.  I'm truly exhausted.

H took over her grocery shopping and taking her to appointments.  She doesn't have the same emotional power over him as me.  He handles her better, and holds boundaries.  Doesn't take crap from her.  I'm too afraid of her to be able to do this.  When he can't take her to appts, she enlists other helpers.

Since H took over these jobs, she's stopped texting me, and texts him instead.  About any thought that comes into her head.  Or to tell him some problem or something in her house that needs fixing.  I find it interesting that she just dropped me like a hot potato and attached herself to him instead.  To me this is a signal that she never really had a bond or attachment to me.  I was only useful as long as I was doing tasks for her.  So despite what others may think, I truly question whether she feels any love for me.  So many stories - but I believe she doesn't know and can't feel love.  Her texts invade H's space, and he ignores most of them.

She can't do any of her crafts any more, because of her Parkinson's and her eyesight.

She doesn't get out of her PJ's much any more, because she can't do up buttons or zippers, and probably because she can't do up her own bra anymore (broken arm that never healed properly because of osteporosis so bad her specialist hadn't even seen that T score).

H talked to her about the poo on her toilet seat again.  Our GC son did this the last time.  She got snarky and he dished it right back.

She doesn't know how to use the TV guide anymore.

Her pain has been increasing.  So a few weeks ago H took her to her Dr. and then XRay.

Yesterday, H was preparing her for a home visit from the elderly services consultant.  Mom called her a few weeks ago because she was struggling and probably needed more help and attention.  H asked mom if she knew what she was going to tell this person. My pain is increasing.  I'm struggling with my Parkinson's.  And whether she thinks I should go on an assisted living list.

To which my H responded, "would you like to see the assisted living facility first? I could take you."  She snapped back at him that she was "NEVER GOING TO GO SEE IT".

I guess the venom with which it was said elicited an unexpected emotional response in H.  This is unusual.  But he does a lot for her and its taxing.  He was frustrated.  Why would you ask the elderly services consultant if she thinks you should go on the waiting list, if you have no intention of going to see it, much less ever live there?

Calling the elderly services consultant (ESC) is a sign she is struggling.  H offered to stay for the appt because mom has trouble hearing people she doesn't know well. Mom doesn't want him there of course, because she wants complete control of what gets said.  He might tell the truth.  Now, after weeks of waiting for the home visit, she suddenly had someone do her hair and clean her house.  I know how this goes.  She will pull it together and do a Hollywood performance, indicating how well she is doing.  It will be an opportunity to show off.  See?  Look at me!  I'm great!  I have so many friends who are happy to help me!  And the elderly services consultant will leave wondering why she was called, and conclude mom is doing great. Then H and I get all the complaints and demands the next moment. I'm sick to death of the pattern.  

This morning mom got the call the ESC was sick, and the visit was rescheduled for next week.

This is the same ESC who determined at last February's assessment that mom had shown improvement since she didn't even qualify for assisted living any more after the Feb assessment.  Mom was a nurse and knows how to answer the questions and pull it together. To me it feels like negligence.  I've had people tell me mom is ready for complex care.

H pretty well dedicates 2 days a week to mom (since I'm at work).  

 

Mom has her needs met, but  H loses 2 days a week of free time to tend to a MIL who is negative and unreasonable.  I am working full time to feel safe, instead of enjoying free time and retirement.

I don't know how to fix this.  We want our own life, but also feel a duty to support her.  It would be a joy to support a mom who had gratitude, and was pleasant, and who we had a bond to.  But that's not the mom we have.

Society has this expectation to "honour thy mother".  Her friends enable her by doing tasks for her.  They are good samaritans who probably feel good about themselves for helping her out.  But everyone is a slave.  I was once shown a text one of them received:  "I waited for you all day."

Because she has "capacity", she was able to cancel her home care.

I don't know what to do to help myself.  I don't have the time or energy for self care like I used to before I went back to work.  

The icing on the cake?  After talking to her GP months ago, he put in a referral to a geriatrician to "help with her meds" since mom is so complex, and her pain is increasing.  Mom agreed to this.  I put in a call to home care to see where she was on the waiting list, and they report they never received the referral from July 6.  I haven't been able to reach her doctor's office all week to report this.

[Methuen]

It's such an exhausting struggle navigating a dysfunctional mom.

Sometimes it's just overwhelming.

She's 86... with longevity into the late 90's in her family.
-Struggles to use a walker in her own home.  Moves as little as possible.
-is a huge fall risk.  Has had 3 falls in the past that have left her weak
-doesn't eat much.  Lifelong issue with eating disorder and body image.
-lost 90% of her vision in her bad eye since she cancelled home care which was putting the drops in her eyes after an endophthalmitis infection.  The other eye has significant vision loss too because she has macular degeneration.
- hearing loss.  Even with her hearing aids in, she doesn't hear us ring the doorbell, enter her house, or say hello when she's in her chair which is 3 feet away (her chair faces away from the door)
- advanced Parkinson's
- mini strokes since 2015
- anxious personality
- mild cognitive dementia

I couldn't handle her emotional abuse any more, so I went back to work.  She's just mean, and vengeful and wretched and raging when she's not feeling well or needs to dump her negative emotions.  She has treated me like   too many times.  I don't want to be around her.  Borderline fits perfectly except for suicidal thoughts.  Covert narcissist is also a good fit.
Spending more than an hour with her puts me in a tailspin.  Between two jobs I work full time, just to avoid her.  I'm truly exhausted.

H took over her grocery shopping and taking her to appointments.  She doesn't have the same emotional power over him as me.  He handles her better, and holds boundaries.  Doesn't take crap from her.  I'm too afraid of her to be able to do this.  When he can't take her to appts, she enlists other helpers.

Since H took over these jobs, she's stopped texting me, and texts him instead.  About any thought that comes into her head.  Or to tell him some problem or something in her house that needs fixing.  I find it interesting that she just dropped me like a hot potato and attached herself to him instead.  To me this is a signal that she never really had a bond or attachment to me.  I was only useful as long as I was doing tasks for her.  So despite what others may think, I truly question whether she feels any love for me.  So many stories - but I believe she doesn't know and can't feel love.  Her texts invade H's space, and he ignores most of them.

She can't do any of her crafts any more, because of her Parkinson's and her eyesight.

She doesn't get out of her PJ's much any more, because she can't do up buttons or zippers, and probably because she can't do up her own bra anymore (broken arm that never healed properly because of osteporosis so bad her specialist hadn't even seen that T score).

H talked to her about the poo on her toilet seat again.  Our GC son did this the last time.  She got snarky and he dished it right back.

She doesn't know how to use the TV guide anymore.

Her pain has been increasing.  So a few weeks ago H took her to her Dr. and then XRay.

Yesterday, H was preparing her for a home visit from the elderly services consultant.  Mom called her a few weeks ago because she was struggling and probably needed more help and attention.  H asked mom if she knew what she was going to tell this person. My pain is increasing.  I'm struggling with my Parkinson's.  And whether she thinks I should go on an assisted living list.

To which my H responded, "would you like to see the assisted living facility first? I could take you."  She snapped back at him that she was "NEVER GOING TO GO SEE IT".

I guess the venom with which it was said elicited an unexpected emotional response in H.  This is unusual.  But he does a lot for her and its taxing.  He was frustrated.  Why would you ask the elderly services consultant if she thinks you should go on the waiting list, if you have no intention of going to see it, much less ever live there?

Calling the elderly services consultant (ESC) is a sign she is struggling.  H offered to stay for the appt because mom has trouble hearing people she doesn't know well. Mom doesn't want him there of course, because she wants complete control of what gets said.  He might tell the truth.  Now, after weeks of waiting for the home visit, she suddenly had someone do her hair and clean her house.  I know how this goes.  She will pull it together and do a Hollywood performance, indicating how well she is doing.  It will be an opportunity to show off.  See?  Look at me!  I'm great!  I have so many friends who are happy to help me!  And the elderly services consultant will leave wondering why she was called, and conclude mom is doing great. Then H and I get all the complaints and demands the next moment. I'm sick to death of the pattern.  

This morning mom got the call the ESC was sick, and the visit was rescheduled for next week.

This is the same ESC who determined at last February's assessment that mom had shown improvement since she didn't even qualify for assisted living any more after the Feb assessment.  Mom was a nurse and knows how to answer the questions and pull it together. To me it feels like negligence.  I've had people tell me mom is ready for complex care.

H pretty well dedicates 2 days a week to mom (since I'm at work).  

 

Mom has her needs met, but  H loses 2 days a week of free time to tend to a MIL who is negative and unreasonable.  I am working full time to feel safe, instead of enjoying free time and retirement.

I don't know how to fix this.  We want our own life, but also feel a duty to support her.  It would be a joy to support a mom who had gratitude, and was pleasant, and who we had a bond to.  But that's not the mom we have.

Society has this expectation to "honour thy mother".  Her friends enable her by doing tasks for her.  They are good samaritans who probably feel good about themselves for helping her out.  But everyone is a slave.  I was once shown a text one of them received:  "I waited for you all day."

Because she has "capacity", she was able to cancel her home care.

I don't know what to do to help myself.  I don't have the time or energy for self care like I used to before I went back to work.  

The icing on the cake?  After talking to her GP months ago, he put in a referral to a geriatrician to "help with her meds" since mom is so complex, and her pain is increasing.  Mom agreed to this.  I put in a call to home care to see where she was on the waiting list, and they report they never received the referral from July 6.  I haven't been able to reach her doctor's office all week to report this.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Methuen,

It's so darn complex, these relationships with our BPD parent. My uBPDm passed away before she got to the place where your mom is, so I haven't gone through what you are. Nevertheless, I do understand the problems and knew if she lived long enough, indeed we'd be in your shoes. I hate that they're like this, so miserable in their own skin yet putting on a facade, and causing every else to be miserable too.

I'm glad that both you and your DH are maintaining boundaries as best you can. That's about the best you can do to survive the insanity which threatens your own well being if you don't. Take it one day or perhaps one moment at a time. Will it help if you don't project ahead too much but just try to be here and now, present with yourself?

What kindness can you do for you and perhaps DH this weekend?

 
Wools

[Riv3rW0lf]

Methuen,

It seems like your mother is hell bent decided to self-sabotage, and there is only so much you and your H can do. The emotional ties we inherited from our BPD mothers, our trauma bond truly, are so very strong... It seems outside our rational and psychological control. And if it isn't, I haven't figured out how to cut this fear and enmeshment either.

It's a body reaction born from so many years of enmeshement and trauma... She might look like a frail old lady to everyone else, but I understand so very much that she is something entirely different to you. Honor thy mother... But our mothers weren't really mothers, were they? Sometimes mine was, but the rages and neglect were just as real as the string-attached love...  I was and still is so scared of her... Few people can understand that.

I hate to read that you are exhausting yourself in two jobs instead of having time for yourself, to enjoy a well-deserved retirement, but I get it. It's the last mile though ain't it? The marathon that just seems like it will never end...but at some point it will.

I wish I had legal advice for you, legal solutions, health advice, anything that could help... But it is so far from my current experience that I am not even sure what words would help.

I do feel for you and your situation, it is an impossible position to be in...and it is an unfair one too. I really do hope they will see through her at her next appointment. Can they force someone to go into assisted living now?

The same issue arose for my H's grandfather. He fell many times, cracked his skull, he has dementia and left during winter time last year, got lost... Was hospitalized twice in the last four months, but his wife refuses assisted living and wants to keep him with her...so they keep sending him back? It seems completely unreasonable to me... It's like they can't legally act maybe? Or it's just a lack of ressources?

In all cases... I feel for you and I truly hope you find a bit of peace and time for self-care, you deserve to care take of you Methuen.

 

[zachira]

Methuen,
You are keeping busy so you don't have to interact with your mother. I am wondering if you can give yourself permission to relax while at home, maybe do nothing or quietly listen to music or some other kind of downwinding activity. Your mom is certainly deteriorating. So sad she lost 90 percent of her eye sight in one eye because she cancelled her home health care. The waiting can seem endless for the needed changes to happen when we have an elderly parent with BPD who wants complete control of their children and refuses to take the children's needs into consideration. One thing is for sure: Major changes are coming sooner or later, and it is looking like sooner with how much your mother has deteriorated in just the last few months.  

[Notwendy]

Oh gosh Methuen- you know I empathize with your situation. While I agree with the others, I see where my being at work is a boundary too. It seems more acceptable to say I am not available due to work.

I also understand the feeling of duty and ultimately you need to feel you acted according to your ethics but this feels like a no win situation because, we want to also feel that what we do and have done is acceptable to them. I don't think they can grant us this because to them we can't be good enough. That's the hard part. I recall a conversation with my mother and said "I called Dad almost every day" and her response was "that isn't enough" but it was the best I was able to do at the time.

We want to feel we have honored our parents- and yet, we also don't want to be a doormat or tolerate abuse. How does one feel we do that when whatever we do isn't enough in their opinion?

From my perspective, you are doing a lot. You and your H are doing more for your mother than I am.

One question is- how is your H feeling about helping your mother? Is he OK with doing this two days a week? If he feels he is doing too much, one idea is for him to cut back. It may be that his assistance allows her to reject home health. As long as he's doing it, she doesn't have a need for someone to help her do these things. One idea may be for him to cut back.  Can you feel you honor your parent by helping one day a week? That feeling has to come from you if you have a parent for whom "nothing is enough". She won't decide that for you.

My BPD mother does this too- get's her hair done, dresses up- when she chooses to. Distance helps- we are not available to do daily tasks for her so she has to accept home health. I think in your situation, you would have to be the one to set the boundary of what is "enough" and have your H be not as available to the point where she has to accept some home care. Yet you also want to feel you have helped. Could one day a week be a start?

[zachira]

From what you are describing, I am wondering what you think about your mother qualifying for assisted living versus a nursing home? I know she won't go to either if it is her decision to make.

[Methuen]

 

I hate that they're like this, so miserable in their own skin yet putting on a facade, and causing every else to be miserable too. I'm glad that both you and your DH are maintaining boundaries as best you can. That's about the best you can do to survive the insanity which threatens your own well being if you don't. Take it one day or perhaps one moment at a time. Will it help if you don't project ahead too much but just try to be here and now, present with yourself? "

Thanks for this Wools.  Mindful moments is a constant work in progress.  I've come a long ways.  But honestly, sometimes, the problems all converge and become completely overwhelming and it's just too much.  The situation is crazy with no end in sight.  But you are right - we need to continue to find ways to be kind to ourselves.  This weekend it will be filling second hand cabinets that we just installed for closed storage - a fun job.  And maybe a glass of wine.

She might look like a frail old lady to everyone else, but I understand so very much that she is something entirely different to you.  I was and still is so scared of her... Few people can understand that.

Exactly.  Another great example of why people should not "judge a book by it's cover".

It's the last mile though ain't it? The marathon that just seems like it will never end...but at some point it will.

With her longevity genes and her personality, it has occurred to me that she could outlive me, despite her health problems.  People have to be ready "to go", and she will be one that "goes fighting" because that is her character.  

Methuen,
You are keeping busy so you don't have to interact with your mother. The waiting can seem endless for the needed changes to happen when we have an elderly parent with BPD who wants complete control of their children and refuses to take the children's needs into consideration.

You hit the nail on the head. After reading about covert narcissists from another thread, and doing a ton of research into that, I'm feeling that she's a BPD/covert narcissist combination.  I just couldn't believe what I was reading about covert narcissist, so big thank you to whomever posted that.  It's a big light bulb that went on.

 

We want to feel we have honored our parents- and yet, we also don't want to be a doormat or tolerate abuse. How does one feel we do that when whatever we do isn't enough in their opinion?

From my perspective, you are doing a lot. You and your H are doing more for your mother than I am.

Thank you for this.  We do a crazy amount.  It's nuts really.  I still brought her an ice cream cone and a puzzle last weekend.  I mean, why do I do this to my abuser?  Because it's my value to be kind and compassionate...but what is the boundary...when she doesn't have one?  Am I enabling her to keep using and manipulating us to have her needs met?  I am wrestling with this now.

One question is- how is your H feeling about helping your mother?  Could one day a week be a start?

Well- he's a people pleaser, and she knows that well.  Just this morning before work, I opened the conversation about him setting a boundary on how many days he can help her- since she has just moved one of her  scheduled monthly appointments to a Thursday from a Friday - so that he can take her (instead of a friend).  He has been "enjoying" his Thursdays "all to himself".  She of course did this without asking him if it would work for him. It wouldn't occur to her to ask him first!  She assumes entitlement to make him rearrange his schedule for her. This is how she is maneuvering to have him do even more for her.  If he let her, she would eventually have him going there every day.  This is the trap I fell into, trying to please her and be the good daughter.  When she had her first fall, I was at her house 4-5 hours a day for over 4 weeks caring for her.  I wish I had recorded how she treated me, but back then, I hadn't thought of that yet.  When I started losing emotional control and my mind after 4 weeks of doting on her and her injury, I got home care involved.  That was almost 3 years ago, and it took me returning to work 8 months ago to finally find my space.  The ensuing rage from her when I told her I was returning to work was epic.  I was selfish.  I didn't love her, and I was the worst daughter ever.  Although I gently tried talking her down, using SET etc., she was too far gone, and I had to exit the situation and walk out of her house (not the first time).  

When she realized that "service" wasn't stopping, and H took over doing her transports to appointments, groceries etc., she returned to baseline.  Everybody already knows there was no apology or even acknowledgement that she may have "over reacted".  Swept under the carpet of course.

So NW, I hear your point about H reducing his services to one day a week loud and clear.  But as we all know, setting a boundary is going to result in mega unpleasant push back.  He hasn't had to deal with that push back directed at him yet... These are conversations he and I will have this weekend now that she has changed her eye appointments to "Thursday" so that he can take her instead of a friend.  Makes me wonder if the friend told mom she couldn't do it anymore.  I don't know if H will agree to it.

We are both trapped, because we still want to stay true to our values which is to be kind and helpful to everyone.  So is this the cost of being kind?  Making ourselves more vulnerable to manipulation and abuse?  We have a million boundaries (ok that's metaphorical).  But a million boundaries simply isn't enough.  We're always playing catch-up to her waif-i-ness, and her maneuvering.

[2of3]

I'm sorry for everything that you are going through.  I don't want to minimize how tough this is or how hard it is to change the behaviour patterns that your trained for all your life.

I've worked my whole career in the charitable sector - I'm not a social worker or a caregiver, my work is more administrative.  However at various jobs I've been involved in working with the elderly and people with substance abuse.  While they are very different issues - I think that there are lessons for families of seniors to learn from the families with children who have substance abuse issues.  I hope no one takes this the wrong way or thinks I'm minimizing the struggles of addition.

1.) They have agency.  Unless there is mental incapacity such as dementia or Alzheimer's our parents get to make their own choices.  No guilt for us if they make bad choices.
2.) They choose to live at risk.  Living alone when they are at a high risk of falls.  Not taking their medicine. Refusing to seek medical treatment.  Living in filth.  As their children, we need to find a way to be at peace with the knowledge that it is our parents' choice to live at risk. 
3.)Hitting rock bottom. It is a phrase we often use for addicts, but I think we also need to apply it to seniors.  I have seen seniors reluctantly move from the family home into an assisted living facility and they love it.  They make new friends, eat healthy and have beautiful, clean places to live and say they wish they had moved sooner.  If our parents have the capacity to live independently we can help, but when we are sacrificing our own health, happiness and relationships then we need to let them live with the consequences of their own decisions. They will decide when things are so bad that they want to move.
4.)  Its triage.  Seniors care is over burdened.  Social workers, medical staff and caregivers have to make choices on who is a priority for housing, benefits and treatments.  There isn't much they can do if an elderly person is of sound mind and refusing help.  And, if the family is there, then that's who they'll lean on to fill in the gaps.  Family members need to decide what role to play - to be advocates for getting the appropriate care from the system or try to fulfill that role themselves.
5.)Who's in charge?  Addicts and seniors can both look weak and helpless, when in fact they are manipulative and in control of the family.  When the focus is on the senior who else is being neglected?
6.) Be ready to be judged - Yep, there are going to be a lot of people out there who listen to our parents about what horrible children we are.  Doesn't make it true.

Now for a story, when my father in law died, my mother in law hadn't gone grocery shopping or driven her car for over five years because of her "health".  At first her children went grocery shopping for her and took her to her appointments.  She just kept getting more demanding.  She also lied.  She insisted that she wasn't driving even though the car was being parked in slightly different spots; the mileage was going up and she was bragging to her out of town children how she was tricking their intown siblings to do all her errands.  So the intown children decided not to grocery shop for her anymore  and gave her two options: 1.) I would have a weekly phone call with her and order her groceries on line for delivery and 2.) she could drive to her nearest son and have dinner with the family every night.  She refused both offers. She cried. Sobbed. Literally collapsed on the couch howling. Got the out of town siblings involved.  When she was hungry enough she started grocery shopping for herself.  That's 12-years of grocery shopping we've avoided.  And, I should add that grocery shopping is one of the few things that gets her out of the house. She seems to enjoy chatting with the clerks at the Health Food Store and visiting the local bakery.  This would have been a different story if she was truly incapable of leaving the house or was starving herself... but it was about finding an appropriate response to her behaviour.

Good luck to you.  Please take care of yourself.

[Methuen]

Wow 2of3.  I say "wow" because although I "know" all of this, your timing was perfect because I really really needed these reminders.  We get so caught up in the tornado, that it's easy to lose the perspective of looking down upon the problem, and you just gave that back to me.

To your point of hitting rock bottom, one of the things on H's and my bucket list in retirement is to do a long road trip - like 8-16 weeks (camping).  Losing us for 2-4 months would definitely force the issue with my mother living independently.  I don't know what would happen, but that's her problem to figure out right? There was a time when I used to tell my family (H + 2 kids) that I couldn't be gone for long because of grandma.  It was a counsellor about 5 years ago that challenged that and said "why not?" At the time I was horrified, and wondered what kind of a counsellor she was.  But eventually I came around and started to see the real problem.  I see a trip like this as 2-4 months of socially acceptable NC.

5.)Who's in charge?  Addicts and seniors can both look weak and helpless, when in fact they are manipulative and in control of the family.  When the focus is on the senior who else is being neglected?

Exactly.  Thank you so much for this.

6.) Be ready to be judged

I think I'm ready for this, but I don't know...

Thanks for sharing your story.  You make such a good point.  I have discovered too that she can do things she tells me she can't.  I of course fell for it, but now that H took over many jobs, he makes her do the things she can do herself.  I didn't see that she could do these things.  And of course I was terrified of her, so I did them.  He's not afraid of her.  That's the difference.

My mom lost her driver's license a year ago.  The back story to this is that she accused the Dr who administered the driver's medical of being incompetent, and "reported" him to the driver's licensing branch.  One of her flying monkey's helped her put the letter together.  Just unbelievable.

I really appreciate your suggestions and support 2of3.  

[Methuen]

  I am looking for clarification:

Mom has long said many things that we (her family) have labelled "lies" (not to her, but amongst ourselves).

Example:  She built increasing resistance over time to getting drops in her eyes from home care.  At the beginning of her eye infection, she needed the drops every hour 24/7.  H and I  started the treatment (24/7) at our house (temporarily moved her to our place during a reno) but once it became apparent it was going to be long term treatment I got home care involved.  She despised needing home care because of the optics.  In her "friend group" nobody else needs support.  She told me she felt "treated like a child".  Her home care workers were amazing.  I think I met all of them.  These are special people and they treated her like a queen (even doing a singing performance for her). Just before she cancelled the treatments from home care, H, S27 and myself were at her house visiting when the home care worker came to administer the drops.  She dysregulated.  I won't give the details but she was abusive and we were horrified and embarrassed beyond the pale.  Then she got down on the couch to show everyone how she could do her own drops.  She has Parkinson's and she's nearly blind from macular degeneration.  The drop ran down the side of her nose.  She said it went in.  The home care worker gently acknowledged she thought it went in, but it was running down her nose and cheek.  All 3 of us family members concurred.  Mom became belligerant and in a bellicose tone exlaimed "it had so gone in!".  So home care suggested she try again.  She tried again, with the same result as the first time.  Again she announced loudly that it had gone in.  Again the truth was told.  After a 3rd attempt and more abuse from her, I got up and left out the front door as I couldn't handle her abuse of someone else anymore.  I waited outside for the home care worker to come out.  When he did, I apologized profusely for  my mother's behavior and articulated as best as I could in words all the things he had said and done so professionally to manage such a difficult situation.  Again I apologized and said how embarrassed I was.

My question is this.  I have always thought these behaviors from my mom were denial, or outright lying. Part of her BPD.

But is this an example of narcissism?  She truly believes it went in because she's so insecure that she can't acknowledge that it didn't, and conversely, she thinks so highly of herself that in her mind it's not possible for the drop to not go in, because she never gets it wrong? 

Could this be narcissism?

[zachira]

My guess it is your mother's inability to deal with what her current state of mind is, and her need to have control over everything. I had a somewhat similar problem with my mother with BPD. She badly injured her leg in an accident. The doctor said her leg had to be elevated or she could lose it. My brothers were living in her house at the time. She continually refused to elevate her leg despite repeated requests from my brothers and refused to get a hospital bed for her home. Eventually the doctor sent her to a rehabilitation center to stay until her leg healed. The staff had to walk by and repeatedly make her elevate her leg. I am so sorry for all you have to deal with your mother. I tried to look out for my mother's well being when she was alive; she was extremely belligerent and angry at me for doing so.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Methuen,

I'd think that becoming older, and more frail, is probably one of the worst thing a narcissist could experience. Not only do you suddenly require a lot of physical support, but people now look at you like someone they need to manage... Aging, in our society and culture particularly, is a LOSS of power.

My BPD mother doesn't want to grow old either, she doesn't want someone else doing things for her, and she has a hard time managing her limits, but it doesn't feel about power, it's more related to her fear of ending up alone. I mean...who wants to grow old and frail, truly?

It's hard to know how my mother would have reacted in your mother's position... I want to say though, that my mother would not like home care, but I do think she would use them, because she did in the past...

My BPD mother does not dysregulate when she does a mistake, or when she cannot do something. She dysregulates when she sense a disconnection from us... When she feels us "growing appart", when she notices that all my attention is not her, when I seem sad, or angry ...but not when she fails at something. She dysregulates if I go to the parc alone with my daughter, because she feels abandoned. But she doesn't dysregulate because her cake didn't come out right or because she couldn't lift something.

Narcissists though, do dysregulate when they fail... Don't they...

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again Methuen,

I've been thinking about you this past week. I hope you had the time to fill your cabinets and drink that glass of wine this weekend. 

Good for you that you see your own progress towards being more mindful. It's a process to be sure! I've been working on mindfulness (sometimes unknowingly) throughout my years of T. There were times it was a very conscious decision, especially at first.  As I began to heal from the childhood wounds that came about from my own uBPDm, there were times that I just started slowly to notice I was staying in the moment, and I would frequently be surprised to find myself there. I'm glad you went back to work, and that can be a good place to lose yourself in the moment and be mindful if it's a good, healthy and safe place for you.

You'll get there, I am confident.   

 
Wools

[Notwendy]

2 of 3- wow, thanks for that post.

I was talking to one of my BPD mother's home health providers about our concerns about BPD mother and she said something astounding to me "your mother is concerned about her own needs- you can take care of yours and your family's"

It's astounding because I don't think people understand how much we need to hear that. A "normal" mother would be invested in her children too. It would be a mutual relationship. I've seen an example of this with my mother in law- she may ask a child to get groceries- then say "here's a little extra- go get yourself some coffee while you are out". The message being- I care about you and want you to do something nice for you". It's not a financial transaction- it's a caring one. If an adult child takes her on an errand- it's time spent together, they may go for coffee, or lunch on the way. It's more than just doing something for her.

One of the first things BPD mother says when one of us is visiting is "oh good, I have some things for you to do" and the visit mostly consists of us doing things for her. We don't hear "I look forward to seeing you". After GC visited I asked her how it went and the reply was "GC was a big help to me". We expect to be helpful- it's not about what she can do for us, we don't expect any of that, but the relationship seems task oriented more than a visit to spend time together.

So when someone says "take care of you" whether it's go get yourself a cup of coffee, or anything else, it's astounding to us- because it's not something we feel we have permission to do and yet, it's "normal" for a parent to care about their child, it's not our "normal".

[Notwendy]

I am looking for clarification:

Mom has long said many things that we (her family) have labelled "lies" (not to her, but amongst ourselves).


My question is this.  I have always thought these behaviors from my mom were denial, or outright lying. Part of her BPD.

But is this an example of narcissism?  She truly believes it went in because she's so insecure that she can't acknowledge that it didn't, and conversely, she thinks so highly of herself that in her mind it's not possible for the drop to not go in, because she never gets it wrong? 

Could this be narcissism?

Methuen, I think it would be hard to say exactly what motivated her to say this. It may have been just to get home health to leave. While my BPD mother does accept home health - she also doesn't want them to get too close and she resents them being around her while wanting them to do something for her at the same time. When BPD mother says something that is a lie- it's likely that saying this meets some need of hers.  The insistence on "being right" could also be an over reaction to feeling invalidated. BPD mother reacts poorly to suggestions and if someone tells her what to do. I recall making a small suggestion to her and she dysregulated and I realized that to her, a suggestion implies "you are incapable".

When someone has a poor sense of self, the idea that they made a mistake feels threatening. It's not that she missed with the eye drop- she's defending that someone assumed she's incapable as some kind of flaw about her. If someone were to be a bit stern with my mother about something she needs to do, her response is that the person is assassinating her character. To me, it seems your mother insisted that she got the drop in to get the process over with and for the home health worker to leave.

[Notwendy]

Here is an interesting article that explains the difference but also states the two can co-exist so it's not an either/or necessarily.

https://medium.com/relationship-stories/toxic-relationships-borderline-or-covert-narcissist-182249b9701c#:~:text=People%20with%20BPD%20can%20feel,praise%2C%20admiration%2C%20or%20sympathy.


These statements seem to fit my BPD mother. However, her home health team see her as BPD and I think this is the best working "label" for her as she relates to them. She likely relates to them differently than with her family members. I think she's a mix of both anyway.

It may be her closest family members who actually see this from the article:

People with covert narcissism have a narrow emotional range compared to those with BPD. People with BPD can feel empathy and deep love for the people close to them. Covert narcissists are deep down bored and can’t see past their own needs, so they often seek out a new supply for emotionally charging praise, admiration, or sympathy.
The covert narcissist fits my mother best here.

Fear of abandonment can cause BPD’s to become overly clingy, where NPD’s are more likely to seek out new supplies, then discard others when their needs and expectations are not met.
 BPD mother seems to do both.

People with covert NPD are sensitive to rejection and have a high sense of entitlement, so their self-esteem is threatened by not getting their way. BPD self-esteem is at threat when they’re abandoned, whether that abandonment is real or imagined.  I see both in my mother but more to NPD than BPD.

In a toxic relationship with a covert NPD, increased defensiveness is in response to not giving in or not enabling actions that take advantage of you. When the relationship is with a BPD, reactions, and aggressions are more responsive to mood instability and fears of abandonment.


While people with BPD and NPD can become threatening and manipulative, a person with BPD reacts emotionally where the NPD responds deliberately.


Again, a bit of both but some of her behavior is deliberate and manipulative and she exploits people.

This helps to understand that a person can have both traits:
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and borderline personality disorder (BPD) are both cluster B or dramatic/erratic personality disorders. In this way, they can appear similar and have shown significant comorbidity.



But this one stood out to me as I have wondered about my mother leaning towards ASPD - and this statement below fits her. She doesn't seem to show any remorse, ever, over anything she's ever done - she doesn't seem to care at all about if she's inconvenienced someone or insulted them.  She has a huge sense of entitlement. She would not go so far as to commit a bad crime, but interpersonal boundary violations like lying, she doesn't show any concern about doing these things.

I don't see her as fully ASPD but I see that she has many covert NPD traits and is a mix of both BPD/NPD in her overall behaviors.


However, the strong sense of entitlement and lack of empathy and remorse makes covert NPD more akin to anti-social personality disorder (ASPD) than BPD.