A healthy stranger vs. an unhealthy stranger

[Sappho11]

I think I'm getting better at discriminating between them.

Just came back from meeting someone new (platonic context), an aspiring lawyer. We had a civilised discussion for several hours, which was enjoyable on a purely cerebral level, but there was something odd about him, a pervasive whiff of sadness, even though he said absolutely nothing uncivilised or untoward. It was just intution. We did have a lot of strange biographical commonalities, which didn't seem to strike him as remarkable at all. All in all I got the impression that he was trying to prove how original he was and that he was a little miffed at not being that original after all. Maybe even a smattering of jealousy, though I might be wrong. While he said all the things that made him sound like an empathetic, well-adjusted being, the emotional impression I got from him didn't quite match up. There was an air of dissatisfaction about him even though he was occasionally quite appreciative verbally. He kept bringing up dark, heavy topics and when he noticed it himself, he tried to pin it on me, which was curious to say the least. He also walked very briskly and uttered surprise that I wasn't complaining, "as many people do" (wearing heels, I actually wanted to and now I think I should have). I noticed both my concentration and composure slipping towards the end and felt quite drained after the encounter.

Before I went home I sat on a bench on a public square near where I live in order to smoke a cigarette, alone, in peace. Halfway through, a young man, working class type, approached me in order to bum a smoke. We chatted for about three minutes about the sensuality of our shared habit: the drama of lighting a match, taming a very element to light a cigarette, the meditative aspect of smoking and how one should enjoy these little moments more intensely instead of rushing through them... by the time my cigarette was finished, I felt really refreshed by that simple, short conversation, the guy looked perky too, we said good night in good spirits and I went home.

I think I'm going to start selecting the people in my life by the way our interactions make me feel.

Energy-draining – No thank you
Energy-providing – Yes please.

[Sappho11]

In other news, a couple of years ago I went on one or two dates with some guy. I don't remember why we lost touch, but we reconnected a few weeks ago on WhatsApp.

We made reasonably pleasant conversation but he seemed strangely terse, and the other day I asked him why we had lost touch back then, was he mad at me? His cryptic response: "I can't explain it either, and I'm not particularly mad". (No other explanation was given.)

Abandon ship, abandon ship!

I looked up our old emails and he was a completely different person. Lovey-dovey, reverent emails (despite barely knowing me). Not sure whether that was just interest or already downright lovebombing.

Did I already say "abandon ship"? Abandon ship!

I'm tired of dealing with people. Perhaps it's the place where I live (my neck of the woods is notorious for being cold and unfriendly) but I just can't handle it anymore. At this point I'd rather not interact with anyone anymore.

[SinisterComplex]

In other news, a couple of years ago I went on one or two dates with some guy. I don't remember why we lost touch, but we reconnected a few weeks ago on WhatsApp.

We made reasonably pleasant conversation but he seemed strangely terse, and the other day I asked him why we had lost touch back then, was he mad at me? His cryptic response: "I can't explain it either, and I'm not particularly mad". (No other explanation was given.)

Abandon ship, abandon ship!

I looked up our old emails and he was a completely different person. Lovey-dovey, reverent emails (despite barely knowing me). Not sure whether that was just interest or already downright lovebombing.

Did I already say "abandon ship"? Abandon ship!

I'm tired of dealing with people. Perhaps it's the place where I live (my neck of the woods is notorious for being cold and unfriendly) but I just can't handle it anymore. At this point I'd rather not interact with anyone anymore.

Sappho, I think a lot of us get to that point. I definitely understand your feelings...my co-worker and I were having a conversation and he asked me if you won a billion dollars what is the 1st selfish thing you would buy. My answer...my own private island equipped with everything I deemed necessary.  . In essence...I truly get it.

Cheers and best wishes!

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[kells76]

Hi Sappho11, great discussion.

While he said all the things that made him sound like an empathetic, well-adjusted being, the emotional impression I got from him didn't quite match up.

This has been a theme of my learning process here on the site.

I remember back in college, in my early 20s, receiving an unhinged (well, I know now it was unhinged!) email from the grad student I'd been doing some research for -- apparently I'd not re-enrolled in the research section correctly, or on time, or hadn't told her personally I wanted to again but then enrolled, or something (honestly, I don't know what it was). She absolutely laid into me for an entire page worth of text about how inconsiderate I was, how thoughtless, how unbelievable my behavior was, on and on and on.

But I had no context or experience for processing that disconnect between what she was saying and how she was saying it. All I knew was -- logically, the things she said sort of made sense, so it must clearly be my problem. I couldn't put together that while she may have made a few isolated logical points, the way she was saying it (equivalent to the "emotional impression" you describe) was saying something very, very different. I was so focused on her words, that I missed the bigger picture, of which how she was delivering the words (and why) was a big part.

It took that, plus many confusing emails from DH's kids' mom, for me to build the skills to do as you're sharing you're doing -- to step back and compare the words spoken to the emotional impression. When those don't match up, it's not because we are the problem, it's because we're rightly noticing disorder and dysfunction.

...

How old were you, and/or where were you at in life, when you started to have that realization -- that there could be a disconnect between the what and the how?

[zachira]

Great discussion and a very much needed one!
So many of us who suffer terrible pain and disappointment from being in dysfunctional relationships need to learn to trust our gut when something is off about a person while having the courage to make relationships with healthy people. I say "having the courage to make relationships with healthy people" because it can be hard work looking at ourselves and making changes to be able to have relationships with healthy people. With the unhealthy people, something doesn't match up: The smile is not a genuine smile. The words don't match the actions. The dysfunctional person gets others hooked by lovebombing them which with time and more intimacy often later turns into endless criticism of how their targeted persons can't do anything right.
Slowing down and taking time to see who is who, and focusing on how we feel inside when we are interacting with another person can save us a lot of immediate and long term heartache. If a person is too good to be true, than we are being manipulated. I now look at how anothe person handles being told no or being disagreed with. I often say to my friends that we are not friends until we have had a disagreement and are still friends despite not agreeing on everything.

[Tupla Sport]

I was so focused on her words, that I missed the bigger picture, of which how she was delivering the words (and why) was a big part.

I can relate a lot. There is something about a disordered person sincerely telling you "how it is" that can make you go "huh, I guess so". You don't see the flaming forest for the one pretty nice looking tree. For a BPD, it's quite the opposite , not seeing the fairly average forest for one or two dead trees.

[SinisterComplex]

Great discussion and a very much needed one!
So many of us who suffer terrible pain and disappointment from being in dysfunctional relationships need to learn to trust our gut when something is off about a person while having the courage to make relationships with healthy people. I say "having the courage to make relationships with healthy people" because it can be hard work looking at ourselves and making changes to be able to have relationships with healthy people. With the unhealthy people, something doesn't match up: The smile is not a genuine smile. The words don't match the actions. The dysfunctional person gets others hooked by lovebombing them which with time and more intimacy often later turns into endless criticism of how their targeted persons can't do anything right.
Slowing down and taking time to see who is who, and focusing on how we feel inside when we are interacting with another person can save us a lot of immediate and long term heartache. If a person is too good to be true, than we are being manipulated. I now look at how anothe person handles being told no or being disagreed with. I often say to my friends that we are not friends until we have had a disagreement and are still friends despite not agreeing on everything.

I love your last line here Zachira..."I often say to my friends that we are not friends until we have had a disagreement and are still friends despite not agreeing on everything." - This is where I can totally agree. I admit I am both low-maintenance and also exhausting at the same time. Why is this? I don't do boring with people. For example, I love stimulating conversation and high-level discussion, but at the same time I love it when someone can put me on my $$ in a debate or disagreement or someone who can stand toe to toe with me and that is simply because I despise complacency. Conflict and confrontation stimulate and promote growth if done correctly. That is true friendship to me. You have to have people around you who have a backbone and can stick up for themselves just as much as they would stick up for you. 

Additionally, something I want to touch on here as well as that you mention going with your gut. This is something I specifically focus on with customers, clients, co-workers (I've been in many roles as a Supervisor/Mentor) I've trained through the years, etc...listen to what your initial instincts are telling you...they are never wrong. This is why I get perturbed when I hear the follow your heart BS  . That is just plain flat out bad and destructive advice. Listen to your instincts...if something feels off or you can't put a finger on it leave it alone...you are not wrong. Unfortunately, society seems to have programmed people to not trust their instincts and to always second guess themselves. As in well its ok and it will probably get better, or I just have to give it a chance, or I'm probably just over-analyzing...NO, that is categorically false! When you have those moments of doubt that is essentially when you need to realize you already have your answer...it's a do not pass go, do not collect $200 moment...ie it's a NO from me dawg (yes pulling that line from Randy Jackson). 

Cheers and best wishes!

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[Sappho11]

I just wanted to add an update. A couple of weeks ago I went to a different country (!) and encountered a woman who actually knows the guy I mentioned in the OP (small world). The one who acted mostly normally, even though something seemed really off about him.

She told me a horror story of how they'd originally made friends, how he'd been all lovely and decent until he suddenly got really weird and awful (to the point that they're not friends anymore).

So my gut instinct was spot on.

Moral of the story: Your contact with a BPD has likely made you develop an early warning system. Use it.

Peace

[zachira]

Thanks for sharing. Your comment about having contact with a BPD has likely given us an early warning system is often true. I frequently wonder why so many people don't get that a person is unsafe. Good for you for listening to your gut in not continuing to engage with this guy!

[Riv3rW0lf]

When you have those moments of doubt that is essentially when you need to realize you already have your answer...it's a do not pass go, do not collect $200 moment...ie,  it's a NO from me dawg (yes pulling that line from Randy Jackson).  

I often have to use my H as my sounding board when I get feelings that someone isn't safe. I just learned to gaslight myself and am slowly modifying this learned behavior, but it's harder than it seems ...and this is basically often all he answers : "When there is a doubt, there is no doubt." He makes it seem so easy  

He also often confirms my suspicions and in some cases bluntly asked me why I was becoming friends with someone that was very clearly "off". I would answer they were kinda nice... Then  ,  ,  ...and he was not at all surprised while I was still wondering why they were acting this way and making excuses... In a sense, I am very lucky I have him to show me the ropes... Because truly : no one ever did, and it takes much longer to figure this stuff out alone. I find it hard to trust myself, but now that I know why, I am getting better at it every day.

[SinisterComplex]

I often have to use my H as my sounding board when I get feelings that someone isn't safe. I just learned to gaslight myself and am slowly modifying this learned behavior, but it's harder than it seems ...and this is basically often all he answers : "When there is a doubt, there is no doubt." He makes it seem so easy  

He also often confirms my suspicions and in some cases bluntly asked me why I was becoming friends with someone that was very clearly "off". I would answer they were kinda nice... Then  ,  ,  ...and he was not at all surprised while I was still wondering why they were acting this way and making excuses... In a sense, I am very lucky I have him to show me the ropes... Because truly : no one ever did, and it takes much longer to figure this stuff out alone. I find it hard to trust myself, but now that I know why, I am getting better at it every day.

Well in a sense it's all about learning to trust your instincts...they are never wrong. It is easy, but most people complicate matters by overanalyzing and wanting to be wrong. Typically if you go against your instincts you can expect a less than desirable outcome.

Cheers and best wishes!

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[Turkish]

This book is a bit dated, but its overall theme is sound. My buddy's wife gave it to me about 15 years ago.

The Gift of Fear - Gavin De Becker

Basically, trust your gut, especially if you're female.

[SaltyDawg]

I have a true story to tell you guys...

I agree completely with trusting your 'gut'.  However, not everyone can do that -- more on that later...

However, the mind is often more powerful that your 'gut' and one gets burned by the desires that the gut says is wrong -- that's why I am here.  My gut told me my pwBPD was 'too good to be true' - while it took me 2-1/2 years to see the first red flag, it totally fell apart after 5 years when our first child came into the picture, now I am at 22 years in this relationship [19-1/2 married], and picking up the pieces and trying to figure out went wrong.  After studying it for the past half year when I first became acquainted with BPD, I have a decent understanding of it.  Right now I am trusting my gut on how to make my pwBPD become self-aware to take accountability for her actions and not be her caretaker.  I am also trusting my gut, since I fell in love with my pwBPD for it not to end in divorce.  I am trying a new path that has certain doom written all over it, with some success.  This is ultra-rare.

... now for not trusting your gut part ...
When I was on my way to meet up with my previous relationship a xuBPD/NPDgf, I was warned by a friend who knew this person, that she was not good for me and to watch my back, and I got a story from this friend, not to trust your gut, as this friend told me that they couldn't trust their gut in matters of the heart.

Whenever this friend followed their 'gut' they would get burned -- that friend didn't elaborate on how they got burned, but that was the very cryptic warning that I had received from this friend about the soon to be gf came into the picture for me wound up being true.

After finally reflecting on it a quarter century later I had heard it from this friend when this thread triggered my memory, I reflected back on the cryptic warning I had received and I can now see clearly that this friend's gut feeling was also what their heart wanted so badly.  It is important to differentiate what the heart wants, and what your gut is telling you.  It reminds me of the DBT skill of wise mind, where you heart is the 'emotional mind' and the gut feeling is the 'rational mind', and then you can use the 'wise mind' to discern what is right for you.

It turns out that this friend was right a couple years later, I did follow my gut, and I let the xuBPD/NPDgf go after I found out that she had tried to cheat on me not once, but twice.  However, I went from the proverbial fire, into the frying pan in my next relationship, only to get burned again... which eventually has brought me here to the BPD Family as a fellow sufferer.

Ok, story time is over...

[Notwendy]

I think the "trust your gut" sensation is a feeling of discomfort, not an "I like this person" feeling.

Boundaries are a part of "feeling a match" with someone. Someone with emotionally healthy boundaries feels a sense of discomfort when they are with someone who has poor boundaries.

It's possible to be attracted to someone but then feel discomfort if there's a boundary mismatch but if there's boundary issues- then this might make the "trust your gut" misleading.

I have seen it written where if someone leaves a disordered relationship and doesn't do some self work on their part in it- they risk recreating disordered dynamics with someone else in another relationship. I've also seen it written where one's family of origin has influence too.

[SinisterComplex]

I think the "trust your gut" sensation is a feeling of discomfort, not an "I like this person" feeling.

Boundaries are a part of "feeling a match" with someone. Someone with emotionally healthy boundaries feels a sense of discomfort when they are with someone who has poor boundaries.

It's possible to be attracted to someone but then feel discomfort if there's a boundary mismatch but if there's boundary issues- then this might make the "trust your gut" misleading.

I have seen it written where if someone leaves a disordered relationship and doesn't do some self work on their part in it- they risk recreating disordered dynamics with someone else in another relationship. I've also seen it written where one's family of origin has influence too.

This is why you will see the old adage "Hurt People Hurt Other People." - It is indeed a vicious cycle and unfortunately true. Family of origin is a factor as well your attachment style.

Cheers and best wishes!

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