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Author Topic: Still struggling…  (Read 811 times)
thankful person
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« on: December 01, 2022, 03:58:23 PM »

Hi all,

I’m still so thankful for all the support and advice I’ve received here. I am barely coping but I know it would be much worse without the tools and skills I’ve learnt here. It just doesn’t seem to be working atm.

My wife has completely turned on me a couple of weeks after she birthed our third child. Strangely the first couple of weeks were amazing. But since then she has been telling me I’ve ruined her life by not giving her the sex she craves. And in many other ways. She wants me to leave apparently but is also saying she doesn’t want me working too much as she needs help with the kids. We have no time for sex even if she allowed it.

I understand that my wife has undiagnosed post natal depression and that things may or may not get better. She has been like this before and spontaneously decided she loves me again. It doesn’t feel like she will do this. But then it hasn’t in the past. These splits last for months, if not forever.

She wants me to talk about sex lots but I’m not allowed to touch her and she doesn’t respond or just has a look of disgust or disinterest on her face. I do not have the sex drive she has or the aggressive nature she craves.

My wife constantly criticises me for everything I’m getting wrong on a daily basis (even when I’m trying to please her), and everything I’ve ever done wrong in the past.

But here’s the thing. I am stronger now and not upset the same way I was. But it’s still wearing me down. Primarily I want to do what I can to make the relationship work because I want to be here for my children and raise them with my wife. Also I do love my wife, we have fun together (I thought we did anyway), and I am insanely attracted to her (which she doesn’t believe). She is saying we’re not together.

I am only playing this silly game because I don’t want to leave. I don’t want to make things worse by showing I’m not so bothered. She hates that I’m not so upset (most of the time). Last night I was actually thinking of other sad things to make myself cry so she could get the reaction she wanted. Stupid I know. But if she actually handed me divorce papers I would not fight her and would be relieved. I do dream of a simpler life alone where I could enjoy my children thoroughly without her there even though it wouldn’t be all the time.

I don’t know what I’m asking for really. Any thoughts and support I am so so grateful. I don’t feel so alone anymore and I have learnt to look after myself better and stand up for myself better since joining here. Thanks everyone. I think of you all lots.


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healthfreedom4s
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2022, 05:58:45 PM »

Thankful Person,

I am sorry that your situation is not letting up. I understand the impossibility of making our pwBPD feel any better.

I am in the same boat with intense situations with my wife in the recent days. Last week, she had dental surgery and I was home for two nights with the kids to help her. When I left with the kids for my apt, she started raging in the evening when my kids called her that she couldn't have good holiday (though it was as per original plan). I couldn't predict it. When I went to pick up my younger one for school in the morning couple of days back, she was raging about how bad I am and telling my kids that she is fighting for them etc.. My younger one was so upset, he didn't talk to me a single word to and fro in the morning/evening. He became normal only the next day.
My wife's ragging has increased my anxiety in the recent days. I dread meeting her in the morning/evening for pick up/drop off of my son. There is always a knot in my stomach and I am not sleeping well. The second home helps a lot but it doesn't fully insulate me from my dread/anxiety.

She hates that I’m not so upset (most of the time). Last night I was actually thinking of other sad things to make myself cry so she could get the reaction she wanted. Stupid I know.
I go thru this too. I don't smile/laugh much in front of my wife, to give her the satisfaction that I am sad. I hear upbeat songs and watch comedy when I am alone. We just can't be ourselves.

It is a rollercoaster. Please know that I think of you and folks in the forum that are going thru a rough period now.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2022, 05:01:08 AM »

I am sorry you are dealing with this. I'm going to draw a parallel in my relationship with my BPD mother, although it's not a romantic one. I also made changes in being less reactive to her moods and what she says- which is better for me, but changes the dynamics between us.

Sometimes she does say something that would provoke an emotional reaction. I think a part of this is that- this is how she relates to people- with these drama dynamics. People use the relationship tools they have. You learned new ones, but your wife still has hers.

The double bind situations are frustrating. One of them for you is- talk about sex with her and show you are attracted to her- but no sex is permitted. It's also hurtful to you.

I understand that you haven't wanted to do therapy. The board, the tools- all are helpful- I learned them too and the support here is invaluable. However, for me, I have had to do more to gain insight into my part in relationships, work on my own enabling tendencies, and gain better boundaries.

You are in a difficult spot right now, and support can help. At the moment it feels you are the captain of a ship in a storm, trying to hold it all together while you co-captain is acting out. It may be that there's no time for this now. I recall when my kids were little and it's moment to moment- with feeding and fussing and the toddler running around. But when things settle, and they will settle some as the baby gets older, you may want to consider some therapy for yourself.

One thing I have noticed is that a pwBPD is sensitive to any decrease in attention and emotional caretaking. It seems logical that the new baby and the children are taking more of your attention, but to your wife, it may just look like less attention for her. These effects of changing attention isn't just in a marriage with BPD- it can stress a marriage when a spouse feels they are getting less attention, but people who can regulate their emotions understand the reason and are committed to the new baby too.

If someone can't do this, or have disordered thinking, they may see this as rejection. If BPD mother perceives me as her "persecutor" on the Karpman triangle, she then goes into victim perspective and becomes verbally and emotionally abusive in return.

Your wife is projecting her difficult feelings on to you. On your part though, you don't want to go back to all the walking on eggshells and emotional caretaking- as that reinforces the behaviors you don't wish to tolerate. No matter what the reason- you don't want to tolerate abuse. This is going to take boundaries on your part. One could be, you don't wish to talk about sex when your wife has said you two are not together. You may wish to avoid all circular arguments and disengage when she tries to get into them. Also, don't take the actual content of what she says personally. It's how she copes and not about you, even though it's hard not to. Mostly though- you need some self care. What can you do to take some breaks and do something for you?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 05:07:11 AM by Notwendy » Logged
leedsfan1109
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2022, 12:13:21 PM »

I am relatively new here, but from looking at your post and other comments, is it a good idea to label our partners as having BPD like this?

If I was my partner, I would be feeling so labeled and judged. What am I missing?
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thankful person
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2022, 04:26:24 PM »

Thank you not Wendy and health freedom. Your input is so valuable to me always. Not Wendy I know you are right about me needing therapy. And that there could be more boundaries but I am concerned it could push my wife over the edge. Atm most of the time we are bizarrely getting on well, despite the split. The best thing about it is that the children are largely protected from what’s going on between us.

I am relatively new here, but from looking at your post and other comments, is it a good idea to label our partners as having BPD like this?

If I was my partner, I would be feeling so labeled and judged. What am I missing?

Leeds fan, welcome. I’m not totally sure I understand your point. My wife was diagnosed bpd before we met, and completed some therapy which helped her beat an eating disorder and self harm, so she considers herself cured. So it wasn’t me that initially labelled her bpd, but a team of medical professionals. Despite my wife feeling she is cured, bpd is an emotional disability characterised by many common behaviours such as jealousy, extreme rage, control, paranoia, and an inability to cope with and express emotions. And sadly pwbpd often mistreat their partners and close family members to the extent of it being characterised as emotional abuse, even though this may not be their intention. In bpd family, we have all been through a variety of challenging times with our pwbpd. At first it felt a betrayal to go on here behind my wife’s back. But if you look through my previous posts, including a “success story”, for over a year I had been celebrating the fact that bpd family had helped save my marriage, and that my wife was presenting as much more sane and calm since I learnt what I have learnt here and changed my behaviour. Lastly, I do not talk to my wife about her bpd, and that hasn’t ever been part of my success story. I know some pwbpd are self-aware and want to get better and treat others better. Others have no conception that they are treating their closest people poorly, or that their behaviour could improve. My wife is one of those.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2022, 07:11:26 AM »

leedsfan1109,

I think you make a good point about labeling a partner without looking at oneself. Since we can only really change ourselves, if all we did was label someone and judge them, it wouldn't do much for our own personal growth. It's understandable that our family members/partners would feel hurt by being labeled and judged. I think if you spend more time here, you will see that this isn't the case for many people on this board. It is a public board though, with a large number of posters and some may be labeling and judging, but for the most part, people are here for one reason: they care about the person they are in a relationship and are seeking support and advice for how to manage some difficult behaviors. There's a distinction between judging a behavior and judging a person. If a person is abusive, or addicted to a substance- then, that is a harmful behavior.

We are all lay people on this board. The diagnosis of BPD can only be made by a professional and some here have partners/family members who have been diagnosed, and others do not. While we can not diagnose someone, we can observe behaviors. If the behaviors fit the "label" then looking for advice with that "label" can possibly help with the behaviors.

One of the difficulties with BPD is that it isn't a visible condition, it's apparent in how the person relates to others. It's going to be the people closest to them who will deal with the behaviors the most. In addition, there's a tendency towards denial and projection. We may feel the person needs help but often they don't see it that way, and their partners may feel invalidated themselves.

This board is not for people with BPD, because seeing posters discuss their difficulties would be hurtful and the intent is not to hurt them. Their partners/family members are dealing with some difficult issues and this is a place for them to discuss them. Ultimately though, if there is going to be change, it's up to the partner/family member to look at their own behaviors, and it's encouraged that they do that. Sometimes eventually, the decision is that the relationship isn't possible, but they may wish to at least try to see if that can be prevented first.

Lastly, the label can bring clarity. I am the adult child of a mother who is severely BPD which has led to her behaving in disordered ways.  I didn't understand why she behaved that way.

The "label" BPD has led to clarity and also a direction for looking at my own behaviors and how to relate to my mother better and also others.

It also helped me to decide just how much contact I can manage. Because of her condition, she can say and do hurtful things. I think for many people here, keeping that distance, or ending a romantic relationship is a difficult, last resort, decision.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 07:26:55 AM by Notwendy » Logged
SaltyDawg
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2022, 06:44:52 AM »

leeds fan,

Short answer: 

   I call my uBPDw out here as being 'borderline', as this is a forum to anonymously vent my emotional frustrations on the matter.  I also share my story to help others in addition to my version of journaling here, so it serves a dual purpose for me here.  However, while I did tactfully raise my suspicions of BPD with her T's the issue with my pwBPD and her T's, it was rejected.  However, the T's are now treating the symptoms of it, and positive progress is being made [this is a very rare exception, and generally does not happen too often].  Only time will tell, if this will work for the long run.

   I only briefly brought up BPD to my wife and her T's out of concern of seeing something wrong, I was morally compelled to say something, as being silent on the issue was unacceptable to me, much like if you partner was an alcoholic you would want to tell them when they are sober [very similar as they can't admit there is an issue there unless they killed someone in a drink/drunk driving accident or done something similar like date rape], describing the obvious portions of what is wrong.  My me telling my wife and her T's and the T's are addressing the symptoms of the borderline, but rejecting the labeling of it to keep her in therapy.

Longish answer:

   My pwBPD is undiagnosed too.  I have raised my concerns and why to the T's.  I do have some medical training and can read and understand medical texts including the DSM-V - and what I see and have experienced is scary.  I have voice my observations on the obvious ones [that meet the 5/9 criteria, and independently verified with my wife by asking seemingly innocent questions, and I am convinced she meets 8/9 criteria - she is a textbook conventional BPD when triggered, and a high-functioning invisible when baseline when not triggered.  I personally feel that her T's did this in order to keep her in therapy to address the more severe symptoms - which is finally working, without really dealing with the root cause.  I personally don't care what T's call it, as long as the violence, rages, emotional abuse stops, and the negative splitting is reduced.

   The 2/3 of her T's feel that she doesn't have it, and the 1/3 only suggested that see needs to have a closer look after exhibiting/admitting to obvious symptoms 'in session'.  Both of my T's and two professional experts in the field have validated my observations, so I do find myself in a pretty messed up situation. 

   I've been given an ultimatum to apologize for diagnosing her by my wife and our Couple's T.  I haven't yet.  It hasn't been raised again, other than for two back to back sessions last month.  However, I went from being overtly dealing with BPD to covertly, I post here only when she is upstairs sleeping (approved by my individual Ts, btw).  I got rid of all the books that were lying about (individual T is holding on to them while my W suppresses the symptoms of Rage [for the past two months this has been absent], abuse [still being addressed] splitting [reduced as a consequence of controlling her triggers better], and controlling how she is being triggered); however, my notes remain in a neat pile as they contain useful tools that I have learned and am applying.  I will not mention BPD to her in her presence any more, and I am prohibited from saying "Rage" which is an irrational extreme anger.  So, I have to resort to a much longer definition of the behavior [minutes of session time] versus a more direct observation of calling a Rage a Rage, which is [seconds of session time].  I do have a 'politicians' apology prepared where I will apologize for apparently making a diagnosis [her words] and that I am unqualified to make a diagnosis.  However, I will not apologize for calling her out on her rages, physical violence, emotional abuse terrorism.

   I am very thankful that she now can finally recognize herself at the initial state of being triggered, no matter how irrational the trigger might be [requires a half second response time on her part to stop it - impressive - otherwise she would fly into an uncontrolled rage].

-----

thankful person,

   I believe that NotWendy's explanation makes a lot of sense.  I fully endorse getting additional therapy for yourself.  Also, to do self-care, whatever that may look like for yourself.  I found self-care to be the number  one way to address the terrible feelings that I was having of my situation especially when I did everything I 'could do' to please her, and still couldn't.

   I have come across some free weekly group therapy information which predominately has separated/divorced individuals reeling from the sting of BPD behaviors.  I find the failures comforting with similar frustrations and feelings, yet depressing because of the failures, let me know if you are interested in this.

   I am trying an 'experiment,' along with a like-minded person on a different forum who is on a parallel journey to my own, albeit still in the honeymoon phase of her marriage with a high-functioning NPD/BPD, where I am giving my pwBPD more attention, validation, and reassurance, while calmly calling her out when I detect the slightest bit of triggering.  She is an author of unrelated self-help books, and if this is successful, I will likely write a book.

   I also found out a lot, through recording of my wife's incidents / episodes [I only did this after she taunted me to do so, which is also recorded as she has done this many time before including several time while in couple therapy sessions, and 3 times since] with my pwBPD and learned the subtle nuances of how it starts.  She would say something that would trigger me, and I in turn would say something back that would trigger her even more, and the irrational splitting / raging would occur only after her emotional state becomes more heightened.  I have studied the recordings to ascertain, what behaviors of mine would cause her moods to become elevated.  I have adjusted my behaviors to avoid this combined with my wife's new ability to figure out when she is being triggered and controlling it, an unintentional joint effort that is making this work there are two new complimentary dynamics at play here that is reaping benefits, similar for my new friend that is on a very similar journey.

   I also found it useful to hang out on a BPD group for and by BPDs on Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/groups/721751655503457] to learn how borderlines think and perceive the world differently than non-borderlines -- this is not a place to vent about the borderline, it is a place to learn and support the borderline and to compare / contrast how my own personal thought processes would occur from their perspective see what is the same, and what is different and learn how to compensate for those differences, and how to better relate with the similarities.  It is quite an eye opener, as you have the full spectrum of borderlines there, with common themes among all borderlines and then where they diverge for the different points of the spectrum borderlines find themselves on along with a variety of other disorders that some of them also have.   In your situation, I do recommend visiting and participating in that group to gain a better understanding of what is going on with your wife and your circumstances that you have shared.

   
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AskingWhy
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2022, 12:51:18 PM »

Make sure you yourself get adequate therapy from a professional who understands BPD and, under no circumstances, go for couples therapy.

People with BPD are strange about sex.  Many come from dysfunctional and abusive families, as did my uBPD H.  He can be overtly seductive and hours later hollering, splitting (against his adult D), slamming doors and breaking kitchen appliances. His own children from his first marriage, in which his first wife cheated and then took the small children to marry her lover, (as teenagers and young adults), abused him and emotionally blackmailed him.

You need to decide on boundaries and when to apply them.  Do not apologize for being confused and angry.  No one asks to be the target of a BPD partner.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 12:57:49 PM by AskingWhy » Logged
Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2022, 01:47:35 PM »

BPD involves projection and denial, due to any sense of criticism ( intended or not ) eliciting painful feelings of shame. Sometimes therapists will avoid using that diagnosis and address symptoms rather than call it BPD because it can be more effective that way. It's not being dishonest - it's using a different method to be more effective.

We know we can not make an official diagnosis of BPD but we see the behaviors and try to make sense of them, in order to find out some possible ways to help.
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thankful person
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2022, 05:17:26 PM »

Salty dawg thank you for your advice. I would be interested in the stories of those who divorced etc. I used to feel my wife was so dedicated to me despite everything. Not any more. I think as she Is potentially not having any more children she no longer sees any use for me. A part of me just can’t believe we could ever separate. Another part of me wishes she would set in motion a divorce. I have worked so hard to improve things and I feel like it was all for nothing. Though actually it was for my children, for their lives to be more peaceful. Even though my wife seems to totally hate me right now, it is still much more peaceful here and I’m so glad. It’s just so weird because it’s like I can’t reach my wife or convince her of my love and dedication. But then at other times she’s just talking normally about our future together. Ironically one of my first posts on here around Feb ‘21 was, “my wife has turned and I can’t get her back”. What happened next was weird. She was having a late baby scan. I’d been forbidden any physical affection for months. I reached out and she took my hand during the scan. That night she texted me in my separate bed, “can I tell you something?” And I said yes and she texted back, “I love you”. And with that she was finally over the split which had lasted for a few months. I can’t see it happening again. But it could.
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SaltyDawg
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2022, 11:25:36 PM »

thankful person,

   Being mindful that this is the "bettering a relationship or reversing a breakup" board I am going to post the following before answering your question:

 Paragraph header (click to insert in post) trigger warning: divorce  Paragraph header (click to insert in post)






   With regards to the group therapy zoom meetings, Randi Kreger [author of many books on BPD including the "stop walking on eggshells series" that is approved by therapists, has her own website and a highly moderated mailing list style forum, much less organized than here and far fewer posts than here -- for discussions about divorce, I would suggest looking here at bpdfamily.com under one of the other topic headings that are more suitable than this one.  However, Randi's group does have several face to face zoom meetings each week with recurring themes.  More information can be found here:  https://groups.io/g/MovingForward 

I get your frustration, it seems like you try and move the world for your partner, and sometimes there is no movement at all in the direction you want to go, and other times there seems to be reverse progress, and on rare occasions it goes the way that you want it to.  Sometimes I cannot make any sense of it, and other times I can see clearly.  While I have only been aware of BPD since June of this year, it has been quite an exploration of a whole new world that I was pretty much oblivious to, until I actually was made aware of that I have been living in for all of these years.

Something clicked, then it kind of made sense, and I understood the situation a whole lot more, but I still really don't understand it - that is why this dynamic is irrational. 

I too wish my wife would set in motion a Divorce, after all she has threatened too many times for me to count.  Our previous couple's T, and I even tried to force the issue, and that didn't materialize - with my own issue of abandonment combined with hers - we are mutually codependent.  I am trying an 'intervention' and that is having some success.  I am trying to push the progress along faster than it is going, with a lot less success than i want.  However, I have been patient for the past 20 years, I will need to be patient for several more months to hopefully see the the fruits of my struggling labor, love, and devotion to my wife and children. 

For the moment, I am hopeful, and I can see our relationship rise from the ashes once again like the legend of the phoenix; however, in which form, I really don't know.
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2022, 06:15:47 AM »

I have a different perspective- having observed the dynamics between my parents without that quality of romantic love, but still with significant attachment to the relationship.

Marriage requires a certain commitment which in itself is commendable, but I don't know if endurance is the largest measure of "success". That is very much up to the two individuals involved. My parents stayed together but from the view point of observing the relationship, it was a difficult one but something between them must have worked for them. That doesn't mean this choice is the right choice for someone else. Each relationship is different.

I think this is one large reason why we don't recommend someone to stay or leave as, even if pwBPD have some similar behavior patterns, each relationship involves dynamics between two individuals.

I think it's important to keep in mind that "bettering" isn't a treatment for BPD though. We are not able to change another person. It's about looking at our part in the dynamics that is also dysfunctional and which may be reinforcing or enabling the disordered behavior.

Even if it is difficult, the mutual behaviors between two people, even if dysfunctional, are in a certain balance. We have a certain comfort level with them. I think it's apparent that enabling, caretaking, walking on eggshells has a certain comfort level for the pwBPD ( even if they aren't comfortable with themselves ). We do this to avoid their reactions. What we need to see is that by avoiding doing things that they react to, we are actually managing our own emotional reactions to them. We are getting something out of these dynamics. So why change if it's working in some ways? We are only motivated to change when the cost of our behaviors exceed the gain.

For example, look at drug or alcohol addiction. There's a very high cost to these behaviors but the "high" or the escape the substance brings is somehow a higher benefit than the cost. The person would be motivated to change if that cost gets high enough for them personally.

For the partners and family members who are in a caretaking/enabling situation, I think they are more aware of this personal cost and so the motivation to change is on them. But change may also have a cost to it. Changing the dynamics can be uncomfortable for both partners but we want to change when we feel we need to, when we have had enough of walking on eggshells and accommodating someone else.

Our hope is that, when we change our enabling behaviors, the other person has the space to learn new ones too. But keep in mind, we only have the relationship tools we have and the behaviors they have that have previously worked for them- but don't work now, they will continue to use until they learn they don't work.

But there's also a risk to changing and that is, that if we grow and change emotionally, the "feeling of fit" will change and if the relationship isn't working like it used to, it may push the decision to end it for either person. If the bottom line is- hold on to the relationship no matter what, then I think the person will have a high tolerance for how their partner behaves towards them. If the bottom line is "I want change and am willing to take the risk of change" then change for the better may be possible but there's a risk to that. You know that doing more of the same will bring the same result and there's some safety and comfort to that even with the personal cost.

thankfulperson- you have done a lot to regain aspects of yourself that you value and also felt a high personal cost to you- your music, your ability to share aspects of your children with your parents. These are integral parts of you, and there is nothing wrong with pursuing them. Music talent is a gift and one you share with others. If we believe that marriage should not require completely subjugating who we are in hopes of keeping our partner as emotionally comfortable as possible, then a relationship that requires this isn't acceptable to us. You have succeeded in having space for "you" in your marriage and your wife adjusted to that. That was good.

However, one thing I have observed with my BPD mother is that her BPD behaviors increase during times of stress. This also included divorce threats, but in reality, I don't think that could have happened and I don't think your wife is serious either. I think she's projecting her feelings.

Everyone feels out of sorts when stressed, and we may have some maladaptive coping behaviors- some people eat more, some can't eat, we may be more emotional. But if someone with BPD has difficulty coping with their emotions, stress can exacerbate their BPD behaviors. Even couples where there isn't BPD have stresses with a new baby. It's a joy and a new adjustment. While it's tempting to expect the pwBPD to understand these stresses- less sleep, more attention to the baby ( less attention to them) - they don't see it that way. If they see things in victim mode, they might see it as you doing something to them.

I think there are a few things going on here. First of all, the stress connected to having a newborn, then the physical/hormonal changes with your wife and she feels out of control and is acting out. You have also changed your caretaking/enabling behaviors that worked to soothe both your wife and also you- and now you are more aware of your own feelings of discomfort because you are not resorting to enabling to manage them. That's a good thing because you were not happy with that level of enabling.

And, you have learned a lot and grown emotionally and are now questioning the "fit" and if this is something you want for the long run. These are your feelings and they are valid. I think you know that the timing- right now, isn't the best time to act on them, but this is also your task to figure out, once you are all settled again into your new family routines.



« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 06:26:14 AM by Notwendy » Logged
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