Scapegoat estranged - Holiday questions

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hello All,

Family background
Its been a few months since I posted, so see below or https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353534.0

Recent history
1. Sunday after Thanksgiving my mother starts calling (we hadn't heard from them in months - this was a clue they were all together and she called right after GC left) and wants to know what to send our son for Christmas. We gave her some pointers, she sent legos and books. She also sent us a check and gift card, which is all very manipulative. She was calling but did not ask for return calls, so we ignored.
2. Yesterday (Christmas Day) was my moms birthday, and I didn’t contact her at all to wish her a happy birthday. First time ever. I didn’t know what to do and just tried to listen to a recent dream that told me 1) I am invisible to my father, 2) my mother can see me but chooses to walk with my father, and 3) if I stay hidden and I would be safe. I feel all twisted - maybe guilty, maybe lonely, maybe wanting her approval or love. (I’m aware this is not really possible due to her codependence, but she does "love" me.)
3. My Dad (whose public gripe/lie is that we said stay away from our son - 100% false) sent 4 books for our son. We initially did not give these to our son, because it felt too manipulative - my father is totally, totally circumventing us as parents. But this morning I opened them to check for hidden notes to our son; I found none, and the books were great choices.

What I know
1. I don’t know if Im no contact or low contact or “doing this right,” even though there is no right.
2. NOTHING i say will ever make any difference at all (to them).
3. We don’t want to escalate.
4. I’ll keep coming back to ACA (weekly for almost 4 years); I attend therapy, and I recently began meditating. These help, according to me and my wife. Yay me. And thank so many people!

Questions
1. How if at all should we thank my mother for her (manipulative) check and gift card to us? We haven’t used/cashed and don’t want to escalate. One possibility: my wife said she (not me) can send a thank you note.
2. Thoughts on ignoring my mother’s birthday?
3. Should we give the books to our son, and not tell him who sent them? After looking at the books my father sent, I see that my son would like these. Or we could simply mention these are from grandfather but not make a big deal? Or give them away and buy him similar books ourselves.
4. Last, and I can’t believe I’m writing this - should we thank my father for the books he sent? They really were good choices, and another of his gripes/lies is that we never thank him for anything.

Any thoughts appreciated, especially normative feedback on feelings during lc/nc/estrangement. (NC feels lousy, but contact feels lousy too!) I know you support me. Thank you very much.


(Re-introducing myself, if helpful: I am a 50yo man, severely emotionally abused scapegoat by narcissistic/alcoholic father - his abusive behavior continues to this day. Mother is “loving” complete enabler. Their emails are auto-routed to folders. 45yo sister is GC, totally enmeshed and favored even though she has not accomplished 1/50th of what I have in life. I have not spoken a single word to GC sister in 6 years. She is not a bad person at heart but a know-it-all and perhaps a narcissist herself (?). My 9yo son was born two weeks before her son, and sadly these two boys have had incredibly different lives (GC son - constant contact w/grandparents, trip to Italy; our son - seen 1x by grandmother and 0x by grandfather in >4 years). My father will cc me on gloating emails with photos of their trip (especially gloating about GC’s son and GC’s husband), mother will deny/refuse to engage, and GC sister will remain radio silent. 18 months ago I sent my father a private 1:1 email setting a boundary with my father, and he erupted made this into a public dispute and severely threatened to disinherit me. Virtually everything he says toward me is in anger and almost entirely untrue. I haven’t been perfect and was even a difficult teenager for them, but I haven’t done anything to deserve the way I’ve been treated my entire life. He is insanely jealous of me for whatever reason and belittles me and everything I do. Trauma therapist said some of worst emotional abuse he’s seen in 30y of practice. Hard stop.)

[seekingpeace2day]

Hello All,

Family background
Its been a few months since I posted, so see below or https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=353534.0

Recent history
1. Sunday after Thanksgiving my mother starts calling (we hadn't heard from them in months - this was a clue they were all together and she called right after GC left) and wants to know what to send our son for Christmas. We gave her some pointers, she sent legos and books. She also sent us a check and gift card, which is all very manipulative. She was calling but did not ask for return calls, so we ignored.
2. Yesterday (Christmas Day) was my moms birthday, and I didn’t contact her at all to wish her a happy birthday. First time ever. I didn’t know what to do and just tried to listen to a recent dream that told me 1) I am invisible to my father, 2) my mother can see me but chooses to walk with my father, and 3) if I stay hidden and I would be safe. I feel all twisted - maybe guilty, maybe lonely, maybe wanting her approval or love. (I’m aware this is not really possible due to her codependence, but she does "love" me.)
3. My Dad (whose public gripe/lie is that we said stay away from our son - 100% false) sent 4 books for our son. We initially did not give these to our son, because it felt too manipulative - my father is totally, totally circumventing us as parents. But this morning I opened them to check for hidden notes to our son; I found none, and the books were great choices.

What I know
1. I don’t know if Im no contact or low contact or “doing this right,” even though there is no right.
2. NOTHING i say will ever make any difference at all (to them).
3. We don’t want to escalate.
4. I’ll keep coming back to ACA (weekly for almost 4 years); I attend therapy, and I recently began meditating. These help, according to me and my wife. Yay me. And thank so many people!

Questions
1. How if at all should we thank my mother for her (manipulative) check and gift card to us? We haven’t used/cashed and don’t want to escalate. One possibility: my wife said she (not me) can send a thank you note.
2. Thoughts on ignoring my mother’s birthday?
3. Should we give the books to our son, and not tell him who sent them? After looking at the books my father sent, I see that my son would like these. Or we could simply mention these are from grandfather but not make a big deal? Or give them away and buy him similar books ourselves.
4. Last, and I can’t believe I’m writing this - should we thank my father for the books he sent? They really were good choices, and another of his gripes/lies is that we never thank him for anything.

Any thoughts appreciated, especially normative feedback on feelings during lc/nc/estrangement. (NC feels lousy, but contact feels lousy too!) I know you support me. Thank you very much.


(Re-introducing myself, if helpful: I am a 50yo man, severely emotionally abused scapegoat by narcissistic/alcoholic father - his abusive behavior continues to this day. Mother is “loving” complete enabler. Their emails are auto-routed to folders. 45yo sister is GC, totally enmeshed and favored even though she has not accomplished 1/50th of what I have in life. I have not spoken a single word to GC sister in 6 years. She is not a bad person at heart but a know-it-all and perhaps a narcissist herself (?). My 9yo son was born two weeks before her son, and sadly these two boys have had incredibly different lives (GC son - constant contact w/grandparents, trip to Italy; our son - seen 1x by grandmother and 0x by grandfather in >4 years). My father will cc me on gloating emails with photos of their trip (especially gloating about GC’s son and GC’s husband), mother will deny/refuse to engage, and GC sister will remain radio silent. 18 months ago I sent my father a private 1:1 email setting a boundary with my father, and he erupted made this into a public dispute and severely threatened to disinherit me. Virtually everything he says toward me is in anger and almost entirely untrue. I haven’t been perfect and was even a difficult teenager for them, but I haven’t done anything to deserve the way I’ve been treated my entire life. He is insanely jealous of me for whatever reason and belittles me and everything I do. Trauma therapist said some of worst emotional abuse he’s seen in 30y of practice. Hard stop.)

[zachira]

It sounds like you are on that steep learning curve so many members are challenged by on this site, in which we can't go completely no contact with our family. What is most important is to do what best limits the distress for you. With disordered people in our lives, we cannot always predict how the disordered people will react to contact with us or how we will feel in advance about their reactions. Do you want your son to have contact with his grandparents, and if so, what kind of contact might likely work best for you? What kind of contact do you want to have with your parents, and is it possible to have separate levels of contact with each parent?

[seekingpeace2day]

It sounds like you are on that steep learning curve so many members are challenged by on this site, in which we can't go completely no contact with our family. What is most important is to do what best limits the distress for you. With disordered people in our lives, we cannot always predict how the disordered people will react to contact with us or how we will feel in advance about their reactions. Do you want your son to have contact with his grandparents, and if so, what kind of contact might likely work best for you? What kind of contact do you want to have with your parents, and is it possible to have separate levels of contact with each parent?

Thanks Zachira, and I’ve enjoyed reading several of your posts today.

I’d like him to have some contact with my mother, for sure.  One of the few times she stood up to my father was when my father unprovoked said to my then-pregnant wife, “I don’t care if I ever see this baby.” My mother loves our son a lot but is so stuck and codependent with my father that she won’t do anything that could make my father feel invalidated. So practically speaking she’s 100% aligned with my father. Thus it’s hard. But she’d be thrilled to see our son - she would absolutely try to smooth it over and covertly include my father.

In terms of my father, he blames me entirely for everything and sees himself (of course) as the best grandfather ever. He’s created this lie where he literally 100% attributes his own actions and decisions to me, as an example he would only see one grandchild at a time (talk about bizarro), and despite our initial pleas he spent maybe 6 months with GC’s son and only 6 days with our son over 3 years. Then he blamed it all on me - profound, profound, projection. He also insists all the kids call him by his preferred nickname, to me it’s really kind of gross (but admittedly my radar is very sensitive to his narcissism). Regardless, he is so unpredictable, and when our son was four my mother said, “Don’t ever leave him alone (with his grandfather).” So, I never will. At the same time he’s very creative and chose great books as I mentioned. Perhaps some supervised contact at some point, but we’re a long ways away.

Also note the boundary I clumsily but lovingly set March 2021 was to run potential invitations past my wife and me. At the time my father was talking to the grandsons about getting together “without parents.” Even though I emailed him privately, he went nuclear publicly. Maybe I should post his then email to me? It’s a few hundred words but I’d be glad for the normative feedback, actually.

One last note: the dream that I mentioned above is very important to me: 1) father cannot see me, 2) mother can see me (did not give away my hiding place) but walked away with my father, 3) if I stay hidden, I am safe. That is why I've erred on the side of no action (mom's bday) for now.

Thanks for any additional thoughts.

[Notwendy]

Questions
1. How if at all should we thank my mother for her (manipulative) check and gift card to us? We haven’t used/cashed and don’t want to escalate. One possibility: my wife said she (not me) can send a thank you note.
2. Thoughts on ignoring my mother’s birthday?
3. Should we give the books to our son, and not tell him who sent them? After looking at the books my father sent, I see that my son would like these. Or we could simply mention these are from grandfather but not make a big deal? Or give them away and buy him similar books ourselves.
4. Last, and I can’t believe I’m writing this - should we thank my father for the books he sent? They really were good choices, and another of his gripes/lies is that we never thank him for anything.

Any thoughts appreciated, especially normative feedback on feelings during lc/nc/estrangement. (NC feels lousy, but contact feels lousy too!) I know you support me. Thank you very much.

Since you are in ACA ( I am as well) you know the saying " we become reactors rather than actors". This item really stood out to me because if we are reacting - we are not deciding- they are in control.

My BPD mother also sends manipulative gifts to my kids, mostly in the form of checks. We recently have stopped accepting the checks due to her having some financial issues and she seems to be OK with that but I know she continues to spend money and give people money if she feels she has some control with that. Prior to that, we accepted the checks and put then towards college expenses. One of my kids rationalized that, since my father earned the money- (he is deceased) it's going to something he would value.

The alternative, refusing the gifts, would be reacting and adding to the drama.

Sending gifts and thank you notes don't have to be personal. We had the kids write thank you notes to anyone who sent a gift. I think people tend to be less formal about that now, with e mails, phones, but we did the old fashioned snail mail: a card with "thank you on it" and a brief note is enough.

Same for your mother. I do call my mother on her birthday and I send her flowers or a food gift. What she does with them is her decision. ( she's given them away before ) but the point is, I have sent them and acknowledged her birthday or holidays. If I were NC I would not have any contact but since I am not NC, I send something that I feel comfortable sending.

I think it would help if you had a standard approach to gifts- whatever you choose and don't base it on their reaction. I have heard that my mother complains about the flowers sometimes and sometimes not. They are from a standard company that has good products, and I can't control her feelings. I choose these gifts and cards to be more generic and less personal. Sending an emotional card or letter feels strange to me. Sending flowers with a message "happy birthday" feels more genuine- I am wishing you a happy birthday. I feel OK doing that. The thank you card is also a lesson for my kids- if someone gives a gift, then thank them for it.

You choose what you feel most comfortable doing- and the important thing is you choose it based on your values. Keeping it a standard thing helps avoid being reactive.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... I will share what I ended up doing this holiday season. Maybe it will help, maybe not. In the end, you truly have to find what works best for you. Like Notwendy mentioned, and even though I am not in ACA, I also try to Act instead of React. I found giving myself time before taking any decision is the best way to achieve that...

I always write Christmas cards to friends and family. And I decided to send one to BPD mother and stepfather. I was genuine in what I wrote... I stated I wouldn't be seeing them this holiday season, but that I loved them and hoped they were doing well, that I kept them in my heart.

I did it, and set myself free from any expectations or fear of their reaction. I did it for myself, and because I thought this was the nice thing to do...to acknowledge the elephant in the room. I knew it might hurt BPD mother, and I did it anyway, because in the end : it felt better to tell her I loved her in some way, than ignore her completely. This is what felt genuine for me at that moment. And what was keeping me from doing it was fear of what this card would create...I did it anyway, and nothing came out of it. No drama. No crisis. No emails. It was, in the end, the best outcome I could have wished for.

BPD mother did send gifts to my children. I wrestled with the idea of keeping them, or sending them back to get something else, or just giving them away. The cards she wrote for them were intense, and showed a high level of favoritism toward my daughter, but the gifts themselves were nice, and of equalled value. H and I decided to give the gifts to our kids, and we didn't say who they were from. We didn't read the cards. Accross all the gifts they received, they didn't thought of asking who gave them to them. They assumed it was from us. And I was ok with that. This was H's boundaries. He was ok giving the kids the gifts as long as we didn't tell them it was from my BPD mother. And I was ok with that.

I did end up sending an email card from Amazon to thank BPD mother and stepfather for the gifts. And I signed it from my daughter and son. It was impersonal, but also felt like the good thing to do. I guess, in the end, this is one of my boundaries, I like to say thank you. It wasn't done out of fear, it wasn't done out of obligation. I took my time to dive within, and contact how I truly felt. And I felt like saying thank you, and so I did...

I think...whatever actions you take, the key might be to monitor your feelings when you visualize yourself doing it... Is it fear? Don't. Is it obligation? Don't. Is it genuine? Your own boundaries pushing you to do it? Then do that and detach yourself from any expectations, from any hope. You won't control the outcomes, but at least you are acting and not reacting.

[seekingpeace2day]

If I were NC I would not have any contact but since I am not NC, I send something that I feel comfortable sending.

I think it would help if you had a standard approach to gifts- whatever you choose and don't base it on their reaction.

You choose what you feel most comfortable doing- and the important thing is you choose it based on your values. Keeping it a standard thing helps avoid being reactive.

NotWendy

Thank you for sharing and for these thoughts. The truth is I do not know if I am NC or LC. My parents live in Florida, and during the storm a few months ago I sent a few word text to check in on them, but that was it. We responded to my moms Christmas query. The only contact we have with my father is occasionally being cc’ed on a gloating email about GC designed to inflict pain - letting us know we were not included. (I suppose I also did forward him an email at my uncles request, but this was a slip and people pleasing (to my uncle) and next time I would tell my uncle No.)

Does this sound like LC or NC?

And yes, I agree re standard approach to gifts. Our son always sends thank you notes, and our values are to do the same - but with the manipulation it complicates things.

A major factor recently is the dream. If she’s walking away and leaving me behind, and I am hidden and safe, why would I come out of hiding to contact her - even if part of me desperately wants to? In the dream she saw me, looked at me deeply and supportively, then made her choice and is walking away with my father (who is angry and cannot see me). Of course my inner child wants to contact her and to have everything be OK. but I know this is not possible. I know the answer needs to come from inside me. Praying on it.

[seekingpeace2day]

RiverWolf,

Has your BPD parent been severely abusive? I ask because Im wrestling with Why would I contact someone (my father) who has been so cruel? Two therapists reviewed his correspondence to me and labeled it sadistic. My inner wisdom says to leave him alone and pray for him - thats all I can do. Im not sure if my instinct to thank him is a sign of growth (to follow my values) or trauma bonding/seeking some connection and wanting to reinforce his books for our son.

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

[Notwendy]

I think...whatever actions you take, the key might be to monitor your feelings when you visualize yourself doing it... Is it fear? Don't. Is it obligation? Don't. Is it genuine? Your own boundaries pushing you to do it? Then do that and detach yourself from any expectations, from any hope. You won't control the outcomes, but at least you are acting and not reacting.

That is the key. And if you send something, don't expect any kind of reaction one way or another. It's their place to do whatever they want. If you don't send something with expectations, you won't be involved in drama.

Why do I send my mother gifts? Because, I feel it's in alignment with my values to do so. Gifts are just that, they don't come with obligation or expectations.

I send flowers and food gifts because they aren't sentimental. Mother's Day cards feel insincere. They say things like "what a wonderful mother you are" and I don't feel that way. When my father was alive, I sent food gifts to him. I have no idea what happened on their end. I got a notice that it was delivered but didn't hear from her. I called to be sure it was sent to the right house. She replied that it was, but didn't bother to let me know. That's on her. I am not going to react to that.

I send a gift that will not have financial consequences to me.  I would not send anything I could not afford to send. I keep the gifts moderate priced. If I sent something expensive, I might feel resentment if she didn't thank me or value it.

[seekingpeace2day]

Duplicate post.

[Notwendy]

NotWendy

Thank you for sharing and for these thoughts. The truth is I do not know if I am NC or LC. My parents live in Florida, and during the storm a few months ago I sent a few word text to check in on them, but that was it. We responded to my moms Christmas query. The only contact we have with my father is occasionally being cc’ed on a gloating email about GC designed to inflict pain - letting us know we were not included.

Does this sound like LC or NC?

 

NC means no contact at all. It would be as if they are total strangers. LC is some, but minimal contact.

There is not a one way is the right way here. It's about what you choose and yes, each one has its difficulties.

My BPD mother is the one who is verbally and emotionally abusive. However, I still wanted to have some sort of relationship with my father and that required contact with them both. I assumed that mattered to him. Like your mother, he was loving and then an enabler of my mother's abuse and he prioritized her.

I don't leave my kids alone with my mother but they did have a relationship with him. I am glad I at least tried. I don't know if it made any difference to them or not.

Same with my mother. It just doesn't seem right to cut contact with an elderly parent. I don't think it matters to her one way or the other but I think I'd feel bad about going NC, so I don't.

[Riv3rW0lf]

RiverWolf,

Has your BPD parent been severely abusive? I ask because Im wrestling with Why would I contact someone (my father) who has been so cruel? Two therapists reviewed his correspondence to me and labeled it sadistic. My inner wisdom says to leave him alone and pray for him - thats all I can do. Im not sure if my instinct to thank him is a sign of growth (to follow my values) or trauma bonding/seeking some connection and wanting to reinforce his books for our son.

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

The first thing that comes to mind is that your father seems more narcissist than bordeline. You are still welcome on this board, of course, I am just pointing it out because there are some very real differences between both types of abuses, and how to handle them.

To answer your question : yes, she was abusive. My BPD mother was a raging alcoholic. I won't get into the details but I was verbally, emotionnally, physically abused by her, and sexually abused by one of her boyfriends during my childhood, all under her care and "supervision". I saw my brothers beaten, and was myself assaulted by her during some of her rages. It wasn't a nice childhood.

But borderline is what it is : there is also a tender side to my mother. She is not a complete narcissist. She has traits, but mainly she is like a child. A child that lose control of their emotions, which is what made her incredibly dangerous when I was a child myself, but is also what made it possible, in the end,to reach some kind of peace.

Through A LOT of self work (still in progress, always will be), I was somehow able to reconcile the mother she wished she could have been and the mother she was. I was able to somehow detach the illness from the "loving mother". I still get triggered though, I still get moments when I hate her. It's all a process. And she is NOT a part of my children's life. I keep choosing to protect them and my relationship with them from her illness.

Truthfully, part of me is still scared of her, and likely always will be. Part of me will always feel responsible for her. Part of me hate her, and part of me love her. In the end, I will always be 50% her though so I had to find a way to stop hating her that much somehow.

To do this, I had to first see her as a monster, I had to hate her, to rage, to scream, to cry, to breathe through the unfairness of it all. I had to figuratively kill her... I cut contact entirely. Then one day I woke up and I didn't feel as angry, somehow. I didn't want to forgive her... Yet I did. This was the irony of it all. Now I can say things that sound like her (an expression, an intonation), and not hate myself for it.

But again : she is almost a pure borderline. She CAN show empathy, if anything she sometimes have too much of it and loses herself, resulting in her raging and shaming us for her own lack of boundaries. She uses guilt and shame, mercilessly, and has weird psychotic moments where she completely disconnect from reality and will see me as her mother and my children like her own. Borderline abuse is not narcissistic abuse.

You don't have to thank him, and you don't have to forgive him, and you don't have to keep him in your life. I want to stretch that out, it's important : some things are unforgivable, and no one here will judge you for not forgiving him. We get it.

To me, what your dream says is : you are not ready. You want to stay hidden. You want to cut contact. And this might be exactly what you need. Listen to YOUR guts. Our journey toward healing is very personal to each and everyone of us, and I do hold my dreams very high, they are beacons of what brews within that I cannot see or won't face, they show me my way. So I would listen to yours... They are your instinct.

You don't need to do anything. Take the gift, or don't. But if your initial gut feelings is to stay hidden, and cut contact for a while, then do so. I did. Like another member told me when I did : if it helps, don't make it definite. You are just following your current instinct. No thank you. No nothing. Retake your power by staying silent and safe. It is ok too.

 

[seekingpeace2day]

NotWendy,

Thank you for clarifying that by my behaviors I am LC, not NC. This frees me up a bit. The hard part is accepting the shallowness and superficiality of any time together. I’m wired for meaning, and there is no there there.

[seekingpeace2day]

RiverWolf,

Thank you for this incredibly helpful reply.

1. I don’t know if I WANT to cut contact… but I think the dream is telling me 1) contact was already cut (mom walking away), and 2) as long as I stay hidden I am safe. At the same time, I long for love and connection! Ug.

2. I agree that my father is more narcissistic than borderline, although he, too has a soft side (just not with me) as well as push/pull relationships. What are the implications of narcissism vs borderline for me and how I might need to protect myself, based on your understanding of my situation? Do any recommendations change?

[Notwendy]

1. I don’t know if I WANT to cut contact… but I think the dream is telling me 1) contact was already cut (mom walking away), and 2) as long as I stay hidden I am safe. At the same time, I long for love and connection! Ug.

2. I agree that my father is more narcissistic than borderline, although he, too has a soft side (just not with me) as well as push/pull relationships. What are the implications of narcissism vs borderline for me and how I might need to protect myself, based on your understanding of my situation? Do any recommendations change?

It's a process, a learning continuum. You won't do it perfectly right off the bat. Since you have been in ACA, have you worked with a sponsor? I found that to be the most helpful- having someone turn the mirror on me and what I can do differently. It's personal growth. We all play a part in the family dysfunction. We can't change your parents, we can change ourselves.

So my first "turning the mirror on you" ( since I have had it done with me) is to not think in terms of "protecting yourself" from anyone. On the triangle, that puts him in persecutor position and you in victim position. This doesn't discount who he is or what he does, or any need to protect yourself. It just disempowers you to think in these terms. What you want to do is get to where your boundaries are more secure, and he no longer feels like a threat.

How do you protect yourself from a hungry bear? We don't judge bears- they do what bears do, and if they are hungry, they eat what they find. We also don't keep trying to get too close to the bear or expect a good relationship with them. We also don't take their behavior personally. It's not our fault the bear wants to eat us and we can't do anything to change the bear. We don't have to hate the bear. He's just being a bear.

But you have a house and it's sturdy and has locked doors. (boundaries). You don't have to fear the bear if your boundaries are secure. The bear can't hurt you in this situation.

I understand being wired for connection. I wanted that too, from both my parents and hoped it might be possible with my father. But he was so much enmeshed that he was also emotionally unavailable.

It's not that my mother's behaviors don't bother me sometimes, and sometimes they do. It's that I don't take them personally as much. Some of our fears are from childhood. We were little and they looked like raging bears to us. I still feel that- but I can also rationalize that she can't really hurt me. She can be mean, I can feel hurt, but I can also get past it faster. I don't need to protect myself from her. I need to have good boundaries.

The other saying is "don't go to the empty well to drink some water". If your parents can't connect with you emotionally, don't seek that with them.

Your dream is a manifestation of your fears- they are real but fears are feelings. You don't have to act on them but you do need to address them. Your father may be a bear, but he can not really hurt you. You are not obligated to put yourself in a position where he might do that.

[Riv3rW0lf]

RiverWolf,

Thank you for this incredibly helpful reply.

1. I don’t know if I WANT to cut contact… but I think the dream is telling me 1) contact was already cut (mom walking away), and 2) as long as I stay hidden I am safe. At the same time, I long for love and connection! Ug.

2. I agree that my father is more narcissistic than borderline, although he, too has a soft side (just not with me) as well as push/pull relationships. What are the implications of narcissism vs borderline for me and how I might need to protect myself, based on your understanding of my situation? Do any recommendations change?

There is no one size fits all way to heal ourselves, but I do think the final objective is the same : regain some sense of control, find our self (or the healthy adult part of ourselves) and ensure it remains in control most of the times.

For me, thinking of myself as a cumulation of parts really helped... So, for example, instead of saying : "I long for love and connection", I would say : "part of me still long for love and connection with my parents".  By doing this, it allows me to detach my self from this specific part and identify who it is : little riverwolf. I can then take charge as my own healthy parent, and give this part of me compassion, all the while explaining her why it isn't possible: "your mother is sick, and she isn't safe for you, but I am here now..."

I come here a lot to be reminded of HOW to be my own healthy parent too... A lot of members here have modeled that for me in the past, just by being here, being understanding, and reminding me to protect myself.  

Notwendy mentioned that this didn't work for her (using the term protection) because this put her in victim position, and it is very valid, too. The language is different, the way to achieve a state of peace and power is different, the final objective is the same. So I am just offering here another "way" to get somewhere specific. In the end, you have to use what works best FOR YOU, for YOUR mind, for YOUR trauma.

For me, I don't feel like a victim when I use my healthy self to "protect" my inner child. On the contrary, it empowers me. By acknowledging the vulnerable parts I need to protect, I choose to identify with the healthy protector I am... This specific part is calm, in control, and cannot be hurt. I can identify the parts of me frozen in time (C-PTSD), and take charge of them using this protector. The healthy adult in me is empowered, and once I don't feel threatened anymore, I can see my mother as a hurt being, instead of a persecutor. So like I said : no one size fits all. There are many strategies, and you have to find what strategy works for you.

We all crave love and connection, the key is to heal enough to be able to protect ourselves, and find this love and connection with safe and healthy people, instead of going back endlessly to a dry well... In the end, I had to kill any hope I had that my BPD mother would ever change. Radical acceptance.

I would tend to believe this would also be your first step : kill any hope you have of the relationship ever changing, and radically accept that you can't control him, nor her. Validate yourself, and offer compassion and love to the little you, who's trauma trapped him in time, frozen in his hurt...your own compassion for him will allow him, over time, to be set free. I have found myself becoming increasingly silly and happy over time... I owned my story, and I let it go.

It also helps to see myself as an orphan. I have to be my own mother and my own father. Which I am sure is true for you as well.

I didn't necessarily want to cut contact either at first... But it did end up being exactly what I needed to free my inner child, and heal her.

It sounded like magical thinking for me...but in the end, this is what seems to be working the most for me. It seems weird at first... But in the end, by seeing myself as parts, I was able to see how two things which seem mutually exclusive really aren't, and to choose which one I wanted to create in my life, hence acting instead of reacting.

Depending on the nature of your trauma, I hear it is not that uncommon to have to "dismantle" our own identity as the sum of many parts. I can't remember if it was in From Surviving to Thriving, or in The Body Keeps The Score, but this is a specific kind of therapy that works for complex trauma. For me though it didn't feel like a dismantlement, but more like I was meeting myself for the first time...

Edit. Found it : Internal Family System, and Structural Dissociation Model.

Note that I dissociated a lot as a child, so this might be why this works so well for me... Here is a ressource to learn more on the method if you feel this could be your case too.

https://integrativepsych.co/new-blog/what-is-parts-work-therapy-ifs

I'm not sure I answered your question... I guess it all comes down to : I cannot tell you what will work for you. The only thing I can tell you is that I could never have met the real me while my mother was around, holding power over me. And maybe your dreams are fears, but I do believe dreams can also be warnings from our unconscious mind. The mind that sees all... I've had more than one dream "predict" events before they happened. I fare better when I listen to them. And I do think it depends a lot on your personality type and the nature of your trauma.
 

[Couscous]

SP2D,

I truly believe that the key to recovering from our childhood is learning to become our own Loving Parent. Children who grow up in healthy families automatically learn to do this. We, on the other hand, have to learn how to do this in adulthood, and it isn't easy. Have you seen ACA's Loving Parent guidebook? https://adultchildren.org/newcomer/becoming-your-own-loving-parent/

If you still have a sponsor, have you had a chance to discuss this situation with him/her?

I also wanted to add that typically, pwNPD do not usually do and say the things they do because they are sadistic. Are those therapists that told you that experts in personality disorders?

[seekingpeace2day]

All,

I’ve realized that 1) I’m mostly upset about loss of connection with my mom (even though Dad severely threatened disinheritance) and 2) I’m having an ACA relapse, reverting to a less healed, more needy, externally obsessed part of myself. (I’ve benefited from several of these suggestions in the past, eg LPG; but past 2-3 days it’s like I’ve lost my recovery mind.) I also caught a cold so have been spending time in bed but not feeling more rested. The good news is that even so, this has been an OK Christmas - many have been ruined by trauma.

I reached out to my sponsor who said to text my mom a belated HBD, but that doesn’t feel exactly right given our discussion above. He’s probably right that I’d feel better (because she’d be thrilled and respond kindly), but she walked away from me in the dream!

I’ll talk with my sponsor later.

In the meantime, any other thoughts especially about a potential text to my mom?

Thank you all. Relapse hurting is not fun. Hopefully there can be some benefit for my growth.

[seekingpeace2day]

RiverWolf,
If you went full NC, what was that like? Forever? What is your current relationship with your mom and dad? Do you expect to be disinherited?
Thanks.

[seekingpeace2day]

So my first "turning the mirror on you" ( since I have had it done with me) is to not think in terms of "protecting yourself" from anyone. On the triangle, that puts him in persecutor position and you in victim position.

How do you protect yourself from a hungry bear? We don't judge bears- they do what bears do, and if they are hungry, they eat what they find. We also don't keep trying to get too close to the bear or expect a good relationship with them. We also don't take their behavior personally. It's not our fault the bear wants to eat us and we can't do anything to change the bear. We don't have to hate the bear. He's just being a bear.

Excellent point, reminder, and metaphor. Thank you.

[seekingpeace2day]

Have you seen ACA's Loving Parent guidebook? https://adultchildren.org/newcomer/becoming-your-own-loving-parent/

I also wanted to add that typically, pwNPD do not usually do and say the things they do because they are sadistic. Are those therapists that told you that experts in personality disorders?

1. Yesterday I grabbed my LPG but in my relapse couldn’t really even read a page. I’ll try again when I feel more centered. I’ve also been meditating but not the past 2-3 days. I can’t recall if there is a LOG section on relapse, but it’s been a great help. Thank you for the suggestion.

2. In terms of sadism, “it’s complicated.” I think my father is experiencing his own trauma, rage and powerless and total, absolute stuckness and not knowing what to do/how to relate lovingly to me, his oldest child, only son, and more gifted man than he. So he is ruthless and vicious and out of control. He has demeaned every single one of my many accomplishments throughout my life. Every. Single. One. As an example of recent cruelty, he took my GCs sister family on a fancy trip to Europe, about which we had no idea. He then sent to several people including me a gloating email with photos, with two paragraphs on GCs son and GCs husband, describing how “fulfilled” he was by the trip. Unimaginably cruel. But it’s almost like he’s sending this not only to punish me but also as a cry to me. Or it feels that way sometimes, the trauma bonding. I do believe that somewhere inside him there is or was a good person, severely traumatized himself. But now he’s on his own course and likely totally irredeemable, although I will always pray for him.

All this said, I’m much less hurt by him than I used to be. The clumsy but loving brief boundary email I sent in 3/2021 ruptured something between us (his response was viscous, thorough, guarded, legalistic, overt triangulation vs sister, severe threat of disinheritance) but it also set a part of me free. He will never change and does not have the skill to reconnect - perhaps this is why his emotional abuse is now so severe, as he wants me to return to him?

Notably he included me on a group email re his experience after the Florida storms; of course my mother sent it to me separately to make sure I received it; I felt she wanted me to reply to him, which I did not.

As of now, my main distress this holiday is actually my relationship with my mother. She of course never did much to protect me by my now adult standards (and in fact taught me that his abuse was love, when he would eviscerate me even as a young child), but she loved me as best she could - we were very close through my teenage years. Even now she tries to make gestures that she is separate from him. After his near disowning email, she called right away and wanted to come visit (Rescuer). I told her I cannot live this way anymore and she said, “I put my faith in your strength.” Of course, when she visited she refused to discuss his threat, saying she could not even read the letter it was so awful and that she cannot control it, As depicted in the dream, walking away with my father is her choice and her destiny.

[Riv3rW0lf]

RiverWolf,
If you went full NC, what was that like? Forever? What is your current relationship with your mom and dad? Do you expect to be disinherited?
Thanks.

For BPD mother, I haven't seen her since last November and she hasn't seen my children, despite me moving back in my home province last January. I have blocked her on social media and messenger. She has written me a couple times, tried to add me again on social media, came to my home to drop things, reached out a couple time asking to rekindle. I said, all those times, that I wasn't ready, but would consider meeting with her in the presence of a skilled therapist. She ended up completely declining my invitation, telling me I should be the one "coming back" since I am the one that "left". She hasn't contacted me again since this last email, but did send the gifts to my children. To me, this qualified as no contact, as I didn't engage with her other than to reiterate that I could meet with her in the presence of a skilled therapist.

I still offered her my condolences when my grandmother passed in October, and after she reached out to inform me of that. She also mentioned she might have cancer. I haven't verified... Maybe I am heartless, but I truly did kill her figuratively. I still love her, and I don't wish her any harm or hurt. But I don't engage emotionally in anything that concerns her...so for me, this is as close as it gets to no contact, but for others, I guess it's more of a very low contact.

For my father... I had to realize how he used me emotionally,and I recognized myself when I read the book on emotional incest. But my father is manageable. He can be difficult, but I can easily remain at a safe distance from him, without any risks. He is not confrontational or openly abusive, unless I jab him first, and I don't. Plus, he has an amazing wife whom I truly love, so I still visit him lots... To spend time with her. She became a friend over time. We don't discuss him and my relationship with him,and she does make him "safer", reminding him to "act as a father".

Am I scared of being disinherited?

I don't give a flying  . I built myself inside and out. Was my own mother, my own father. I don't need anything from them, and I don't want anything. I have a startup and I will build my own dynasty. Mouhahahaha ;)

Honestly.. my father has a sh*tload of money and I don't want it. I've done things freely for him in the past using my professional skills, and for me, this was to pay him back whatever help he provided when I went through school. He did help a bit by covering a fraction of my apartment. Since I couldn't live in his house and was still legally dependant of him, I didn't have any access to govermment loans because of his money. You can see, from this justification, how important my independence is for part of me. It is still hard to admit I needed help from him back then    and so I repaid it all and some three years ago.

Most of his estate will go to his wife and it's ok, it is hers, not ours (his children). I was never inclined toward material things, and I still am not. Wanting anything material always only led to problems and headaches. I'd like to leave something behind for my children, and I will. But I can do it on my own. That's the beauty of western civilization... If I get something from them, it's cool, if not, it's ok. For all intents and purposes, I plan without taking it into account. Truthfully, what I get from them, if anything, will be placed for my children. I don't want to owe my biological parents anything, even after death.

Also.. seeing how you write about your mother, I would recommend the book on emotional incest for you as well (Silently Seduced). Couscous might have some better sources though, she is very knowledgeable in self-help ressources.  

[Couscous]

Most of his estate will go to his wife and it's ok, it is hers, not ours (his children).

Oh, that sucks. I thought you were in Quebec and under forced inheritance laws.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Oh, that sucks. I thought you were in Quebec and under forced inheritance laws.

Well yes, but you can choose to leave everything to a spouse if you have a will. This is what H and I did... It goes all to the other who lives, then when the other dies, it all splits equally between our children. We both know the other will take care of the children if one of us dies. I am assuming my father has the same kind of will here. Unless I am missing something that, because she is not our mother, he HAS to give us two-thirds? Maybe it's worth diving into... Doesn't really change my attitude toward it though. I truly love the woman, and I consider them more like a couple of friends than my father and his wife.

[Couscous]

Unless I am missing something that, because she is not our mother, he HAS to give us two-thirds?

I know that in France it's different when there's a step-parent involved. The step-parent will only get 1/4 of the estate but normally will be able to live in the family home until she dies. It's actually a pretty sucky situation for step-mothers, but civil law assumes that the step-mother will inherit from her father, and as such, her husband is not on the hook to provide much for her. 

[Notwendy]

As depicted in the dream, walking away with my father is her choice and her destiny.

Yes, it is, and the dream may be you realizing this and struggling with this. I felt this way about my father. While we have a disordered parent, I think sometimes it's harder to process the dynamics with their enabler/partner. Perhaps it's because this parent did show us parental love.

As kids, we can only process at our age level. My impression of my parents was my mother as the "problem" and my father as a victim of my mother's behavior. But he was not a victim. He was there by choice although he appeared to be the innocent one. He was somehow so afraid of her that he didn't make decisions, he acquiesced and then told us it was because of her, as if he had no choice in the matter.

While your father's actions are hurtful, they don't surprise you. He's the bear. You know he's a bear and what bears do.

What is shocking is your mother because you see her as a mother, and expect her to act like a mother and she does act like one a lot of the time. Then, she scurries off to your father and you feel abandoned.

It took me a while to see the dynamics differently. Rather than one person being disordered, they are an enmeshed pair each with their own disorder. My father's need to enable my mother matched her emotional dysfunction. If we use the addiction model one could say he was "addicted" to his enabler role. It was irresistible to him. As a parent, you find it hard to comprehend how someone would not stand up for their own children, but people who are addicted to something make the choice to "use" over other choices.

Your mother has her own issues to contend with. I think it's normal to have grief over realizing this. I can relate to the "orphan" feelings. I felt like an orphan when my father passed. My mother has not ever acted like a mother to me, but my father did act like a father at times. Your mother may not even have the self awareness to understand her situation- maybe this is how she was raised as well.

I also have accomplished things that would make a parent proud and hoped for some recognition from parents. But I can not make my parents happy or proud. They see things through their own feelings. For your father, it's narcissistic supply. He may prefer your sister because she depends on him, or because he needs to be the alpha male and you are possibly competition. With you, he needs to win. Whether or not you go LC or NC, you can just stay out of these dynamics emotionally.

[seekingpeace2day]

As depicted in the dream, walking away with my father is her choice and her destiny.

Yes, it is, and the dream may be you realizing this and struggling with this. I felt this way about my father. While we have a disordered parent, I think sometimes it's harder to process the dynamics with their enabler/partner. Perhaps it's because this parent did show us parental love.

As kids, we can only process at our age level. My impression of my parents was my mother as the "problem" and my father as a victim of my mother's behavior. But he was not a victim. He was there by choice although he appeared to be the innocent one. He was somehow so afraid of her that he didn't make decisions, he acquiesced and then told us it was because of her, as if he had no choice in the matter.

While your father's actions are hurtful, they don't surprise you. He's the bear. You know he's a bear and what bears do.

What is shocking is your mother because you see her as a mother, and expect her to act like a mother and she does act like one a lot of the time. Then, she scurries off to your father and you feel abandoned.

It took me a while to see the dynamics differently. Rather than one person being disordered, they are an enmeshed pair each with their own disorder. My father's need to enable my mother matched her emotional dysfunction. If we use the addiction model one could say he was "addicted" to his enabler role. It was irresistible to him. As a parent, you find it hard to comprehend how someone would not stand up for their own children, but people who are addicted to something make the choice to "use" over other choices.

Your mother has her own issues to contend with. I think it's normal to have grief over realizing this. I can relate to the "orphan" feelings. I felt like an orphan when my father passed. My mother has not ever acted like a mother to me, but my father did act like a father at times. Your mother may not even have the self awareness to understand her situation- maybe this is how she was raised as well.

I also have accomplished things that would make a parent proud and hoped for some recognition from parents. But I can not make my parents happy or proud. They see things through their own feelings. For your father, it's narcissistic supply. He may prefer your sister because she depends on him, or because he needs to be the alpha male and you are possibly competition. With you, he needs to win. Whether or not you go LC or NC, you can just stay out of these dynamics emotionally.

Notwendy,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. There is much wisdom in your post.

1. Even though I don't feel "shocked" by my mom's walking away with my dad (literally in life and figuratively in the dream), I do think that I have struggled to accept this reality for many years. I gave my mother every benefit of the doubt despite knowing better based on evidence) and continued to hope that some connection with her is real... and I'm now afraid that I must accept that there is no there, there with her either. I cried briefly yesterday about this.

It's difficult and confusing because: does she love me? Did she also disinherit me? Why does she still send me checks, if she disinherited me? Has she been an active covert abuser this entire time, my entire life? What did she mean when she said, "I put my faith in your strength?" And so on. I feel a bit un-centered emotionally about it (head spinning) and don't know what to do, really. I feel like anything I say would be misunderstood or dismissed or worse... so I don't say anything and focus on myself and my recovery and my wife and son.

I mean, if someone walked away with your primary abuser, you wouldn't then text them "happy birthday," right? OTOH, before walking away with him she saw me clearly, looked at me deeply and supportively, and did not reveal my hiding space.

To be clear, I know she's abandoned me. Anything I receive will continue to be only scraps and crumbs - as it always has been. I just miss my mom, that's all. I wish I could call her to connect but that doesn't seem possible right now - and I guess never will be. I turn 50 in six weeks, and I imagine she will contact me then. Who knows, maybe I'll be in a different place enough to say hello.

My hope is that now that I've mostly come to terms with who my father is, this recent inner turmoil is about coming to terms with who my mother is and thus a sign of my ongoing growth.

2. The last person in my FOO is my GC sister. She is not a bad person at heart, but I was reminded last night of her N tendencies - she called me before I married my wife (15 y ago) and told me not to marry her because "it would cost me a lot of money." I said I can't believe you said that, and like an N she said know-it-all-style, "Of course! I will always say just what I mean." She's also a willing participant in all of this - she is the executor of the estate etc - but at the same time I can't believe that she is not livid at being triangulated by my father. When he sent the near-disowning email to me, he blamed it all on "[my] open disdain for my sister" and then said "[my] vile note [my clumsy but brief boundary email] was a helpful reminder to finalize his will..." Hopefully someone realizes how insane all of this is, but perhaps they just read his legalistic email to me and think I am a jerk. Who knows! A small part of my thinks she wouldn't want to have to execute a will that totally screws me, but I'm sure she could rationalize anything at all. We were never close, but we also were generally fair at least about things like this.

3. In the past day or two I've found myself wondering how much of this I might have caused. I know I didn't cause the sickness in the big picture, but I did disrupt events they had planned due to panic attacks at the idea of spending 3 unstructured days together to celebrate my father's birthday 8 years ago. And I'm sure I pissed them off many other times. So I "know" intellectually that I didn't cause this, but a voice in my head thinks, "What did you expect! Look at how you acted! We all have choices, and you made yours. Now live with it." Have others wrestled with that voice?

On the positive self-care side, I just located a trauma-focused bodyworker and will have my first massage with her next week.

Thanks for reading and any thoughts you might have.

[Couscous]

A small part of my thinks she wouldn't want to have to execute a will that totally screws me, but I'm sure she could rationalize anything at all. We were never close, but we also were generally fair at least about things like this.

I'm wondering if attempting to make peace with your sister would be the most logical course of action then. If this is a path you are willing to embark on, the excellent book, The Emotional Incest Syndrome, has a very helpful chapter on making peace with one's siblings, a topic that I have not seen addressed in any of the other books on family dysfunction that I have read.

The behavior you described of your sister doesn't strike me as narcissistic. It sounds like she's just dutifully playing her family role. A family counselor could potentially assist you in attempting to realign your relationship with her if you so desire, but if she's still drinking the family Koolaid it might be a long-shot.

My brother, who had cut me off a few years ago when he figured out that he was the scapegoat (mainly of my father with whom he has had a very contentious relationship; he was my mother's Chosen Child), has recently decided to bury the hatchet with me, the Chosen Child of my father. Initially he demanded that he would only end the cutoff with me if I cut off my father in solidarity with him, but I told him that that was an unreasonable request, and he eventually begrudgingly accepted that. However, I have recently become very disillusioned with my father and now see how narcissistic he really is, but I had to get to that point on my own, and if anything, my brother's pressure to "see the light" just made me want to defend my father.

[seekingpeace2day]

I'm wondering if attempting to make peace with your sister would be the most logical course of action then. If this is a path you are willing to embark on, the excellent book, The Emotional Incest Syndrome, has a very helpful chapter on making peace with one's siblings, a topic that I have not seen addressed in any of the other books on family dysfunction that I have read.

Thanks for this suggestion; I will read the chapter. We're re-doing our own wills right now, and I did think of asking my sister to be one of our son's guardians in the event that we die. (That is hard for me to believe!) The problem is that she has totally drank the family kool-aid. She's not 100% happy with our parents, and I know she has frustrations with them, but she is enmeshed and dependent on them for who knows what. My Ts have said she did not have the intellect or personality to see who my father is... and last time I asked, her response was typical: "He's the only father I've got..." etc etc etc. We haven't spoken in >5 years, but at a certain level, we were always supportive of each other. Does this information impact your thinking?

The behavior you described of your sister doesn't strike me as narcissistic. It sounds like she's just dutifully playing her family role.

This is very helpful normative feedback. I hope you are right.

[Couscous]

My Ts have said she did not have the intellect or personality to see who my father is

That strikes me as an odd thing for them to say and makes me wonder if they are just pandering to you...

Your sister has very understandable reasons for not wanting to know the truth about your father. The vast majority of people on this planet do not want to know the truth about their parents, and go to their graves without ever seeing them for who they truly are. But no parent is "all bad".

The goal for us is to get to the point where we can see our parents realistically. Where we neither overvalue them, not undervalue them, but can see both their strengths and weaknesses -- a very challenging task for those of us who grew up with Adult Children for parents. It's easier to just split them into either all bad, or all good. I know I certainly saw my mother as "all bad" and my father as "all good". I suppose I'm making progress because now I see them both as "all bad".   

[seekingpeace2day]

That strikes me as an odd thing for them to say and makes me wonder if they are just pandering to you...

Not pandering. Reminding me that my sister went along with the company line and has not done the work that I have. As additional background, when I was 20 (30 years ago1) I met a T who changed my life forever. At his suggestion, I invited my father to attend a session. They spoke for 30 or 40m before I said a word, and I listened. I remember much of the conversation. Ts summary: 1) my father is "good guy" - he didn't have to accept my invitation, 2) my father loves me and this is all his stuff, 3) my father will always see me as discardable - that will never change, 4) my sister "got the abuse" worse than I did - meaning she cannot see the reality, and 5) my father suffers alcoholism. Despite 20 years of psychoanalysis (not a good fit for a disordered alcoholic), my father seems to have deteriorated significantly since that time.

Your sister has very understandable reasons for not wanting to know the truth about your father. The vast majority of people on this planet do not want to know the truth about their parents, and go to their graves without ever seeing them for who they truly are. But no parent is "all bad".

That's a helpful reminder that I am in the (potentially unfortunate) minority. And I agree that "of course she does not want to know." How are you suggesting this impacts my potential reconciliation with her? I love her and wish her very well. I also believe she is immature, unconscious, and fully enmeshed with our FOO - thus dangerous. She has stayed attached and accepted the gifts and not contacted me, after all. I appreciate your thoughts. I'm not ready, but I am open.